Please point me to the thread with the answer

[ZorroGames]

Warlock
Starting equipment. PHB 107.
LCB or simple weapon, pouch or focus, pack leather, simple weapon, two daggers.

Hexblade in Xanathars
Proficiency at first level to medium armor, shields, martial weapons.
Do you start equipped like all PHB Warlocks, buy Medium Armor, shields and/or martial weapons as you adventure or do you start somehow equipped with your proficiency equipment?

[Specter]

Only with the basic equipment.

[Dudewithknives]

Warlock
Starting equipment. PHB 107.
LCB or simple weapon, pouch or focus, pack leather, simple weapon, two daggers.

Hexblade in Xanathars
Proficiency at first level to medium armor, shields, martial weapons.
Do you start equipped like all PHB Warlocks, buy Medium Armor, shields and/or martial weapons as you adventure or do you start somehow equipped with your proficiency equipment?

You still only get to choose the normal starting equipment, however a shield is only 10g so you should have no problem getting one of those, a battle-ax or such is also only 10g.

You should start with enough gold to buy those two if you sell your simple weapon.

Armor is a bigger issue because the cheapest medium armor you will want is like 50g.

If you roll for your starting gold you might could pull it off.

[ZorroGames]

Only with the basic equipment.

Okay, the proficiencies at first level for Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons threw me a curve.

Is there consensus on that?

[DivisibleByZero]

Okay, the proficiencies at first level for Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons threw me a curve.

Is there consensus on that?

There is.
The rules state that the DM can grant you starting equipment based on your class and background, or that he can allow you to roll starting wealth and purchase starting equipment.
Your additional subclass proficiencies have nothing to do with it. Starting equipment packages are based on your base class' proficiencies. If you want a shot at it, ask him if you can roll and purchase. But truth be told, the starting packages are worth more than they appear. If you tried to purchase everything you get in your starting package(s), you'd almost always come up short, with very few exceptions.

[Vogie]

Okay, the proficiencies at first level for Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons threw me a curve.

Is there consensus on that?

I mean, RAW would state that it doesn't matter, because you're stuck with the basic equipment. However, if you talk with your DM, there probably won't be a huge issue with starting with Medium Armor and a martial weapon. It'll probably be Hide (which is the same cost as leather) armor, and a War Pick or Trident (as they cost as much as the most expensive Simple weapon)

[ZorroGames]

In AL I have been told you can sell equipment fof half its buying value.

So, start with LCB, case, bolts; mace or hand axe = 32 GP. Half=16. Leather worth half of 10 = 5 GP. Subtotal 21.

Entertainer background give 15 GP.

Total 36 GP.

Hide 10 GP, Shield 10 GP, martial weapons affordable with 16 GP:

Battle Axe, Flail, Lance, Long Sword, Maul, Morningstar, Pike, Short Sword, Trident, War Pick, WarHammer, Whip, Blowgun (LOL,) and Net.

So, Hide, Shield, Battle Axe, War Pick (or :smallwink: Pike, War Pick, Trident, Net for the entrtainer background.)

Got it.

Thanks.

[adolann]

Can't include links yet, but if you do a forum search for "hexblade starting gear" (including the quotes or it will bring back a lot of results), it has what you are looking for (post 10 in the thread).

[ZorroGames]

And where am I going with this?

PeteNutButter MC Paladin 6+/Hexblade 1 dip flavored as a Mountain Dwarf character.

St 15+2
DE 10
CO 14+2
IN 8
WI 8
CH 15.

Paladin level 4: +1 Ch, +1ST.

[ZorroGames]

Can't include links yet, but if you do a forum search for "hexblade starting gear" (including the quotes or it will bring back a lot of results), it has what you are looking for (post 10 in the thread).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?547362-hexblade-starting-gear&highlight=%93Hexblade+starting+gear%94

Glad someone did the math for me.

[ZorroGames]

Can't include links yet, but if you do a forum search for "hexblade starting gear" (including the quotes or it will bring back a lot of results), it has what you are looking for (post 10 in the thread).

Thanks, posted link.

[DivisibleByZero]

I don't allow the starting packages to be sold so that you can buy other stuff.
If you want that, you can roll and take your chances. If you don't want to do that, then you can take what's offered (which is usually more generous than rolling).
Like I said, the starting packages are worth more than they appear. Allowing that just means you're trying to game the starting wealth.

[Laserlight]

As a DM, I'd give a hexblade the armor and weapon he's proficient with, analogous to the way that clerics who gain domain proficiency in better armor get better armor as starting equipment. Is that what's in PHB? No, but WOTC seems kinda sloppy about integrating later books with PHB--eg adding new spells to clerical domains.

[KorvinStarmast]

As a DM, I'd give a hexblade the armor and weapon he's proficient with, analogous to the way that clerics who gain domain proficiency in better armor get better armor as starting equipment. Is that what's in PHB? No, but WOTC seems kinda sloppy about integrating later books with PHB--eg adding new spells to clerical domains. At least they did OK with adding Ranger spells known bonuses in XGtE.

[Dudewithknives]

At least they did OK with adding Ranger spells known bonuses in XGtE.

The fact they did not retcon in ones for the PHB subclass is just absolute laziness.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't allow the starting packages to be sold so that you can buy other stuff.
If you want that, you can roll and take your chances. If you don't want to do that, then you can take what's offered (which is usually more generous than rolling).
Like I said, the starting packages are worth more than they appear. Allowing that just means you're trying to game the starting wealth.

You're selling for half price, though. You're losing money somewhere in exchange for more customization.


The fact they did not retcon in ones for the PHB subclass is just absolute laziness.

Not really. Retconning core material in splatbooks is a bad idea. Are players who don't own XGtE supposed to be punished in AL? What about the core + 1 rule?

[Dudewithknives]

You're selling for half price, though. You're losing money somewhere in exchange for more customization.



Not really. Retconning core material in splatbooks is a bad idea. Are players who don't own XGtE supposed to be punished in AL? What about the core + 1 rule?

They simply say that these spells are added to the subclass abilities of Beast Master and Hunter. No PHB +1 issue, do it as eratta

[DivisibleByZero]

You're selling for half price, though. You're losing money somewhere in exchange for more customization.

And it's still, even after the half price sale, a net gain usually.
Just look at the example linked. He sold everything for HALF PRICE and still has more starting CASH than the average roll would give him, in ADDITION to everything that he didn't actually sell off (if any).
No.
If you want customization, that's what purchasing equipment is for.
If you want a better bargain, that's what the packages are for.
Getting the better bargain and then selling stuff to get customization by buying different stuff is just working the system to get the best of both worlds.
That sets a certain precedent for how things will be run in the game, and as I absolutely DESPISE when people try to game the system, I nip that right in the bud.
You have the two choices listed: roll for cash and purchase everything, or take the starting package. You can't have both, and you can't mix and match. Choose between the two choices offered. There is no third option.

[JackPhoenix]

And it's still, even after the half price sale, a net gain usually.
Just look at the example linked. He sold everything for HALF PRICE and still has more starting CASH than the average roll would give him, in ADDITION to everything that he didn't actually sell off (if any).
No.
If you want customization, that's what purchasing equipment is for.
If you want a better bargain, that's what the packages are for.
Getting the better bargain and then selling stuff to get customization by buying different stuff is just working the system to get the best of both worlds.
That sets a certain precedent for how things will be run in the game, and as I absolutely DESPISE when people try to game the system, I nip that right in the bud.
You have the two choices listed: roll for cash and purchase everything, or take the starting package. You can't have both, and you can't mix and match. Choose between the two choices offered. There is no third option.

Of course there's third option: do the same thing, except when the game actually starts. "You're in the inn, the NPC has just gave you a quest, what do you do?" "I'm going to visit the shop to sell this crap and buy something else".

Forbidding the players from doing it during character creation serves no purpose, except needlesly taking table time.

[DivisibleByZero]

Of course there's third option: do the same thing, except when the game actually starts. "You're in the inn, the NPC has just gave you a quest, what do you do?" "I'm going to visit the shop to sell this crap and buy something else".

Forbidding the players from doing it during character creation serves no purpose, except needlesly taking table time.

But by that time I'm in control of the shopkeeper, and if he even wants to buy your used crap (which is doubtful, "I'm running a business here, and it ain't a pawn shop, kid"), he isn't offering much.... So now you have less than you would have if you purchased it all, or you have a bunch of stuff that you don't want that you only took because it was expensive.

You don't game the system at my table. I won't let you.

[JackPhoenix]

But by that time I'm in control of the shopkeeper, and if he even wants to buy your used crap (which is doubtful, "I'm running a business here, and it ain't a pawn shop, kid"), he isn't offering much.... So now you have less than you would have if you purchased it all, or you have a bunch of stuff that you don't want that you only took because it was expensive.

You don't game the system at my table. I won't let you.

I mean, I wouldn't play at your table in the first place. But once you say "You'll get less for your stuff than the rules say you should, because I've suddenly decided it's 'used crap'", you're in the same boat as if you've said "Yeah, you can roll for starting wealth... but you'll get only half of that" or "Everyone gets a legendary magic item at character creation".

[DivisibleByZero]

I mean, I wouldn't play at your table in the first place. But once you say "You'll get less for your stuff than the rules say you should, because I've suddenly decided it's 'used crap'", you're in the same boat as if you've said "Yeah, you can roll for starting wealth... but you'll get only half of that" or "Everyone gets a legendary magic item at character creation".

No.
First, because they had two legitimate options and tried to game the system to get the best of both.
Second, because who says that any old shopkeeper would actually want to buy your crap anyway? They sell their own wares and undoubtedly have their own supply chain. Nothing says that they are obligated to buy yours.
In the real world you have to go to specialty shops to sell your stuff. Why do players assume they can walk into any of old shop and sell their stuff there?

Not that it would actually happen at my table anyway, because the players know that garbage doesn't fly and they wouldn't even try it. But if they did...

[JackPhoenix]

No.
First, because they had two legitimate options and tried to game the system to get the best of both.
Second, because who says that any old shopkeeper would actually want to buy your crap anyway? They sell their own wares and undoubtedly have their own supply chain. Nothing says that they are obligated to buy yours.

Not that it would actually happen at my table anyway, because the players know that garbage doesn't fly and they wouldn't even try it. But if they did...

Or tried to do that because they are lazy and don't want to go through the whole equipment list item-by-item, counting the price of everything, when they can just change what they don't want (weapons and armor in this case) and keep the rest (my case, usually)
Or they were worried that they roll low and end up with 40 gp, unable to properly equip their character (at least one of my player, who generally has horrible luck with his rolls)
Maybe they don't want to lose unique items from background, that can't be bought if you use rolls, and have no listed price, but still don't want default equipment

You seem to assume the worst from your players, and seem unable or unwilling to bend the rules to accomodate the player's visions of their characters, and even ban existing options to prevent them from "gaming the system" which may not be happening in the first place.

[DivisibleByZero]

lazy and
<snip>
"gaming the system" .

You said it.
If you do happen to roll poorly, it will take all of one session to earn the cash to buy a new weapon. Maybe two or possibly three for armor, if you're unlucky.
You get the options listed. No more. And precedent has been set that you can't game the system at m my table.

[JackPhoenix]

You said it.
If you do happen to roll poorly, it will take all of one session to earn the cash to buy a new weapon. Maybe two or possibly three for armor, if you're unlucky.
You get the options listed. No more. And precedent has been set that you can't game the system at m my table.

Right. Because you can't risk having a character say "See this greatsword? It's an old family heirloom, I made a deal with dark powers to get skill to wield it after my father was killed by BBEG. It's my last reminder of him, I'll protect it with my life." instead of "See this greatsword? I bought it for the money I've got for selling the gear looted from the corpse of my companion, too bad he had to choose between having food and having proper armor. He has chosen... poorly. Oh, and I made a deal with dark powers to get the skill to use it, for some reason before I ever got my hand on it."

If they can get enough money to afford the gear they need to play their role properly so quick anyway, why can't they just have that gear from the beginning? Oh, right, "gaming the system". Whatever that means.

Is using point buy also "gaming the system"? You're using the available option to make a character who can do what he's supposed to do, just as with equipment.

[DivisibleByZero]

Right. Because you can't risk having a character say "See this greatsword? It's an old family heirloom, I made a deal with dark powers to get skill to wield it after my father was killed by BBEG. It's my last reminder of him, I'll protect it with my life."

He absolutely has that option. All he has to do is roll for starting cash and purchase it, along with anything else he wants to start with. Or take the Inheritor Background.
What he cannot do is *choose* to start with a bunch of other stuff, just because it's more fiscally beneficial, and then sell all of the stuff that he doesn't want so that he can afford that thing while keeping all of the other stuff that he does actually want. That's what the Roll and Purchase method is for.

Here are your starting equipment choices.
Don't like them? OK, here is a way to customize your starting equipment.
Don't like that option either? Too bad. If you want to customize, there are already rules in place which allow you to do so. Choose that option.

[Dudewithknives]

The only issues I have ever had with starting equipment is getting training for certain tools but not having the tools themselves.

As far as other gear goes it has not been much of an issue otherwise.

[ZorroGames]

And it's still, even after the half price sale, a net gain usually.
Just look at the example linked. He sold everything for HALF PRICE and still has more starting CASH than the average roll would give him, in ADDITION to everything that he didn't actually sell off (if any).
No.
If you want customization, that's what purchasing equipment is for.
If you want a better bargain, that's what the packages are for.
Getting the better bargain and then selling stuff to get customization by buying different stuff is just working the system to get the best of both worlds.
That sets a certain precedent for how things will be run in the game, and as I absolutely DESPISE when people try to game the system, I nip that right in the bud.
You have the two choices listed: roll for cash and purchase everything, or take the starting package. You can't have both, and you can't mix and match. Choose between the two choices offered. There is no third option.

Sure there is, don’t play at your table. :smallwink:

Seriously, I see it as my character at Session 0 thinking he can be better prepared for adventure by visiting the marketplace between session 0 and session 1. Session “.5” as it were.

Selling for half rule I knew and losing “value” was not a concern. Accountant is not a character class. If I needed to wait to session 2 I would make my own survival priority 1. Everything else would be priority 3.

[DivisibleByZero]

Sure there is, don’t play at your table. :smallwink:

That's fine. Because the kind of player that gets in a huff about requiring that I offer a third option other than those presented, when the second option presented already does exactly what they're asking for is exactly the kind of player that will argue with me about every little Ruling I make that he doesn't like, and I don't want that player at my table to begin with.
That player will grind the game to an halt arguing over a bunch of little inconsequential stuff, and the rest of the table's game experience suffers for it.


Seriously, I see it as my character at Session 0 thinking he can be better prepared for adventure by visiting the marketplace between session 0 and session 1. Session “.5” as it were.
What you just described? That's literally the Roll and Purchase method.
Session 0 you roll, in between Session 0 and Session 1 (or during s0) you buy stuff so you're geared up and ready to play when the game starts.
What you want to do is already available as one of the two options. You don't need a third, special option just for you.

[JackPhoenix]

He absolutely has that option. All he has to do is roll for starting cash and purchase it, along with anything else he wants to start with. Or take the Inheritor Background.
What he cannot do is *choose* to start with a bunch of other stuff, just because it's more fiscally beneficial, and then sell all of the stuff that he doesn't want so that he can afford that thing while keeping all of the other stuff that he does actually want. That's what the Roll and Purchase method is for.

Here are your starting equipment choices.
Don't like them? OK, here is a way to customize your starting equipment.
Don't like that option either? Too bad. If you want to customize, there are already rules in place which allow you to do so. Choose that option.

Except the "roll for starting money" is a bad option, because it randomise your starting resources. You could end up with two characters, one of which can't afford gear he needs to play his class (let's go with fighters, you can get 50gp minimum, that's not enough for heavy armor, martial weapon and other gear he may need (like clothes)), while other has more money than he knows what to do with (maximum possible result for fighter is 200 gp). Or better yet, a wizard: with minimal roll (40 gp) he can't afford a spellbook. Sucks to be a race who is forced to roll if he wants to start with a weapon he's proficient with.

[DivisibleByZero]

Except the "roll for starting money" is a bad option, because it randomise your starting resources. You could end up with two characters, one of which can't afford gear he needs to play his class (let's go with fighters, you can get 50gp minimum, that's not enough for heavy armor, martial weapon and other gear he may need (like clothes)), while other has more money than he knows what to do with (maximum possible result for fighter is 200 gp). Or better yet, a wizard: with minimal roll (40 gp) he can't afford a spellbook. Sucks to be a race who is forced to roll if he wants to start with a weapon he's proficient with.

If you're so concerned about the possibility of rolling straight ones on multiple d-4s (the bell curve makes that near-impossible, the more days you roll, the more averaged the result will generally be) then just take the starting equipment and buy the stuff you need later. Nothing in those equipment packages are unusable. If you take them your character will not be unplayable.
So take your chances with the dice, or take the starting equipment. Those are your two options.

The bottom line is this: Your table can play with whatever house rules you want. At my table there is no third option, because the two options presented are adequate.

[JackPhoenix]

If you're so concerned about the possibility of rolling straight ones on multiple d-4s (the bell curve makes that near-impossible, the more days you roll, the more averaged the result will generally be) then just take the starting equipment and buy the stuff you need later. Nothing in those equipment packages are unusable. If you take them your character will not be unplayable.
So take your chances with the dice, or take the starting equipment. Those are your two options.

The bottom line is this: Your table can play with whatever house rules you want. At my table there is no third option, because the two options presented are adequate.

But the player isn't rolling for multiple days, he's rolling once. Bell curve doesn't come into it. Again, your houserule offers two options: Either don't be able to play the character the player wants, or risk being both unable to play that character and possibly end up with unsufficient equipment.

To be fair, I do use houserules, but different ones still: I work with my players. If the hexblade warlock wants to start with medium armor and martial weapon, he'll get it, no rolling or annoying sell-buy game needed. If the cleric with martial weapon proficiency wants glaive instead of warhammer, he'll get it. Hell, if the bard says he wants to use normal arcane foci instead of instruments, he can. Example from my latest game, just FYI.

And when the other players I play with take turn GMing, they do the same. In the upcoming game, one of the players wants to play an (depowered) angel... well, he'll get modified and refluffed winged tiefling (more of an aasimar/tiefling hybrid, really), unique weapon and Cha-based unarmored defense instead of normal paladin's heavy armor proficiency to simulate natural armor. My bard won't be using musical instruments for spells and gets some tool proficiencies instead of musical instrument proficiencies. And the last player's warlock gets some spell list changes to fit better.

We don't have to tell others they can't play the character they want.

[DivisibleByZero]

. Again, your houserule offers two options:

My house rule?

Mine is not the house rule. Mine is the rule. I'm following the rules. The rules offer two options, and only two options. For our table, those two options are sufficient such that that we don't see a need to add a third house ruled choice.
You are complaining because I don't offer a third house ruled option at my table.

And so I repeat: Your table can play with whatever house rules you want. At my table there is no third option, because the two options presented are adequate.

[Arial Black]

My house rule?

Mine is not the house rule. Mine is the rule. I'm following the rules. The rules offer two options, and only two options. For our table, those two options are sufficient such that that we don't see a need to add a third house ruled choice.
You are complaining because I don't offer a third house ruled option at my table.

And so I repeat: Your table can play with whatever house rules you want. At my table there is no third option, because the two options presented are adequate.

But...choosing the option you want and then selling some of that equipment for half price is also 'following the rules'. Therefore, not allowing PCs to do so is in fact....against the rules.

[DivisibleByZero]

But...choosing the option you want and then selling some of that equipment for half price is also 'following the rules'. Therefore, not allowing PCs to do so is in fact....against the rules.

Please reference where the rules say that I MUST allow players to sell everything they don't want, and that everything is able to be sold.
It doesn't.
There are two options for starting equipment, and only two.

When you create your character, you receive equipment based on a combination of your class and background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend.Two options. No more. Use the equipment packages, or roll and purchase.
Opportunities abound to find treasure, equipment, weapons, armor, and more in the dungeons you explore. Normally, you can sell your treasures and trinkets when you return to a town or other settlement, provided that you can find buyers and merchants interested in your loot.The rules state that you can sell treasure you find while adventuring. They do not say that you can do so with starting equipment. Those two things are different.
And even then, when selling treasure, it says that you have to find someone willing to buy it, meaning not everyone will. The DM is under no obligation to allow you to sell everything immediately like you're both claiming.
You're extrapolating rules about one thing and applying them to a different things.
You can choose to allow it, but it is not in the rules like you claim. Not only is it not "against the rules" like you're claiming, but the rules themselves even make the ability to sell them at all optional based on your finding someone willing to buy them.
So no, my not allowing this is not "against the rules," as you're claiming.

If you want to customize your equipment, there are already rules in place allowing you to do so.
Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend.
Those are the rules for customizing your starting equipment. Roll and purchase.

[Arial Black]

Please reference where the rules say that I MUST allow players to sell everything they don't want, and that everything is able to be sold.
It doesn't.

The way RPGs work is that players decide what their PCs do, and that includes trying to sell their stuff. You don't need a written rule that specifically mentions every single thing that a PC might want to do and allow or disallow it.


There are two options for starting equipment, and only two.
Two options. No more. Use the equipment packages, or roll and purchase.

Agreed.


The rules state that you can sell treasure you find while adventuring. They do not say that you can do so with starting equipment. Those two things are different.

Rubbish! It is absurd to imagine that PCs in the game world are physically unable to sell the items they acquired before the players took an interest in their lives, but are able to sell the stuff they acquire while the players are watching! The creatures in the game world live their lives with no idea that the players exist in a meta-game! If my PC has a sword he can sell it. The laws of the universe don't ask when he got the sword! It doesn't become magically un-sellable if he got it before the meta-game of a player controlling him on his first adventure! I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life!


And even then, when selling treasure, it says that you have to find someone willing to buy it, meaning not everyone will.

Agreed.


The DM is under no obligation to allow to to sell everything immediately like you're both claiming.

Again, agreed. But the difference between finding a buyer during play and finding a buyer before the game starts is that during the game you might be in the middle of nowhere, while 'before the game starts' is a huge amount of time during which the PC is likely to have been in a place where people buy and sell or barter things.

Here is an analogy. Imagine that the PHB said that, during an adventure, a PC may do mundane things like...getting their hair cut. Does this mean that PCs cannot have had their hair cut before their first adventure? Are they 'meeting in a pub' unable to see each other through all the hair? Do barbers live in pubs, waiting to fleece (heh, see what I did there?) new adventurers?

Ruling that no starting PC can possibly have had an opportunity to sell stuff during their years in town before the adventure begins is exactly as absurd as ruling that no PC could possibly have had a haircut before level one.


You're extrapolating rules about one thing and applying them to a different things.

One of us is. You are reading the rule which says how you can turn found loot into money, and gives a guideline of 'half price' (but full price for stuff like coins and bullion and gems and such), and deliberately mis-interpreting it as saying that it is impossible to sell stuff which you didn't find on an adventure! That is not what the rule means! It isn't even a rule, per se, but a guideline on adjudicating turning loot into money.

[DivisibleByZero]

One of us is. You are reading the rule which says how you can turn found loot into money, and gives a guideline of 'half price' (but full price for stuff like coins and bullion and gems and such), and deliberately mis-interpreting it as saying that it is impossible to sell stuff which you didn't find on an adventure! That is not what the rule means! It isn't even a rule, per se, but a guideline on adjudicating turning loot into money.

That's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is that there are two options to acquire your starting equipment. One of those options is choosing equipment packages offered by your class/BG combination. The other option allows you to completely customize your starting equipment by rolling starting wealth and purchasing everything.
What I'm saying is that there is no need for a third option, and there is no need to allow both of those options to be combined, and that everyone claiming that it's "against the rules" for me to disallow it is flat out wrong.
At our table, those two options are absolutely adequate. Pick one. If you want to allow combining the two, go on ahead and knock yourself out. But I am absolutely not WRONG for disallowing it when the options presented already allow for complete and full customization.
Just because you don't personally LIKE that I don't allow it doesn't make it "against the rules."
At my table, if you want to customize your starting equipment, then you can choose the option that already exists to do so, and I am under zero obligation to make a third option just to make you happy when an option suitable for you already exists. Especially when that option was specifically designed and added to do precisely what you want to do. Choose that option. That's precisely why it's there. For these exact situations. Choose that one.

[Arial Black]

That's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is that there are two options to acquire your starting equipment. One of those options is choosing equipment packages offered by your class/BG combination. The other option allows you to completely customize your starting equipment by rolling starting wealth and purchasing everything.
What I'm saying is that there is no need for a third option, and there is no need to allow both of those options to be combined, and that everyone claiming that it's "against the rules" for me to disallow it is flat out wrong.
At our table, those two options are absolutely adequate. Pick one. If you want to allow combining the two, go on ahead and knock yourself out. But I am absolutely not WRONG for disallowing it when the options presented already allow for complete and full customization.
Just because you don't personally LIKE that I don't allow it doesn't make it "against the rules."
At my table, if you want to customize your starting equipment, then you can choose the option that already exists to do so, and I am under zero obligation to make a third option just to make you happy when an option suitable for you already exists. Especially when that option was specifically designed and added to do precisely what you want to do. Choose that option. That's precisely why it's there. For these exact situations. Choose that one.

You give two options, the two that are in the book. I have no problem with that.

Then, after I choose the equipment package option (which you allow) and say that in the two years I've been living in town where I've owned this light crossbow before the adventure begins that I want to have sold my crossbow (for half price as per the PHB) and bought a greatsword, you say that no-one wants to trade for it in the entire time in a place which works by buying and selling for profit. In two years no merchant has thought that buying a crossbow for half price and then selling it for full price is a good idea when that's what they do for a living? And that's the same choice every merchant makes for every single PC ever made? But then the same merchants would by happy to do so if I said I'd found it on an adventure?

Worst of all is that you're not even trying to pretend that this is actually what people would do in real life in game; you're admitting that you do it as a nerf, to 'punish' players for some imaginary meta-game infraction! As if they are 'breaking the rules' by having their PC act rationally.

[DivisibleByZero]

As if they are 'breaking the rules' by having their PC act rationally.

No.
Acting rationally would be using the roll and purchase method in the first place if they want to customize their starting equipment. Just like the book offers.

Do me a favor.
Explain to me why you can't just roll and purchase stuff like it tells you to. What's the reason you can't just do what it says and instead need to get your packages and sell stuff?
Why?

There is only ONE reason, and that reason is that you are afraid that you might roll poorly.
That's it.
There are ZERO other reasons why you would legitimately be opposed to doing what it says to do in the rules.
So the ONLY reason that you're opposed to doing it that way is because you want to ensure that you get as much starting gold as you possibly can, by taking what could potentially be TWICE as much gear as you would be able to buy, and then selling some of it off, leaving you with a net gain over the average roll had you gone that route.
That's it. There are no other legitimate reasons. And that reason is not legitimate either, so there are NO legitimate reasons why you'd be opposed to doing what it says right in the rules.
You're trying to exploit the starting wealth system.
Period.

[Arial Black]

No.
Acting rationally would be using the roll and purchase method in the first place if they want to customize their starting equipment. Just like the book offers.

Do me a favor.
Explain to me why you can't just roll and purchase stuff like it tells you to. What's the reason you can't just do what it says and instead need to get your packages and sell stuff?
Why?

There is only ONE reason, and that reason is that you are afraid that you might roll poorly.
That's it.
There are ZERO other reasons why you would legitimately be opposed to doing what it says to do in the rules.
So the ONLY reason that you're opposed to doing it that way is because you want to ensure that you get as much starting gold as you possibly can, by taking what could potentially be TWICE as much gear as you would be able to buy, and then selling some of it off, leaving you with a net gain over the average roll had you gone that route.
That's it. There are no other legitimate reasons. And that reason is not legitimate either, so there are NO legitimate reasons why you'd be opposed to doing what it says right in the rules.
You're trying to exploit the starting wealth system.
Period.

Note: you don't need to write the word 'period', just type the key with the little dot on. :smallsmile:

People behave in such a way that gives them the most advantages for the fewest disadvantages. If you give someone a free choice between 5 oranges and 10 oranges (when what they want is as many oranges as they can get) then they aren't 'gaming the system' when they choose 10, they are just making a rational choice.

If you give them a choice between 200gp and 2d100gp then choosing 200gp is not 'gaming the system'.

If you give them a choice between '2d4x10gp' or 'a bunch of stuff that is worth 100gp after you sell it' then it is not 'gaming the system' when they choose the one that yields the most money. They are just acting rationally.

If you give people 2 options and then think they are somehow cheating by choosing one of them, then the problem is in the choices you gave them!

On the face of it, each of the official choices seems fair enough. But they are written with single class PCs in mind, and they don't necessarily work for multiclass PCs. This is a problem which they attempt to solve within the rules by choosing set equipment, selling stuff for half price, and then buying the stuff they do want from the money. This is not against the rules!

Finding examples where the two official choices are inadequate for MC characters is easy. Let's say we want a Mnk/Ftr multiclass, starting with monk, envisioning an unarmoured guy using a greatsword. A fighter can afford a greatsword, but a monk cannot. The game does not intend to deny fighters the weapon they want, but the rules inadvertently do just that.

A single class warlock has proficiency in light armour but not medium or shield; in simple but not martial weapons. But a patron available at 1st level grants medium armour, shield, and martial weapon proficiency. The philosophy of the game is to equip PCs with the stuff that they are proficient in using, but the rules fail here. The equipment package has no option for medium armour, shield, or martial weapon, and the random starting gold for warlocks is not enough to purchase that stuff, even though the starting gold for warrior-type classes would be enough.

What is the solution? Well, the player could ask the DM to take all this on board and allow him to have the expected equipment, but some DMs don't like changing the rules. No problem! I can follow the rules and choose from the official warlock starting equipment options, choose the most expensive stuff, sell the stuff I don't really want for half price, and then buy the stuff the rules should have given me in the first place!

Using their reason to solve a problem. Nothing wrong with it at all.

If you don't like their solution (an imaginary 'gaming the system' infraction) then work with them to solve this very real problem in a way that doesn't offend your irrational hatred of 'gaming the system'. Two easy options are:-

* copy the starting equipment package from a warrior-type class, or make one of your own which combines options for medium armour, shield, and martial weapon, as well as warlock stuff like component pouch/focus
* give them the random starting gold of a martial-type PC

Letting them 'game the system' is actually okay, since all it is doing here is getting the PC the stuff that they should have.

If you work with the player to find another way to get them the stuff they should have, like the ideas I just wrote, will also work.

What does not work is refusing to do that AND disallowing people to sell things because of your irrational hatred. Not because of your feelings about it, but because you are artificially preventing a PC from getting the starting equipment it should have. This results in a PC that doesn't have the equipment that their proficiencies expect them to have.

This is a problem. Solve it.

Full Stop.

[DivisibleByZero]

This is a problem. Solve it.

Full Stop.

The solution is already in the PHB.

"Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend."

Full stop.

edit:
Incidentally, you didn't answer the question of why you need to do it. But you also kind of did answer it, claiming exactly what I said was the single reason why you'd want it. So for all of the words you typed, all you did was verify what I expected you to say. This being that you have no real reason other than trying to get the most bang for your buck (ie: trying to manipulate the system).
You said a bunch of stuff about a level 1 monk needing a greatsword even though he wouldn't be proficient, and incorrectly claiming that a warlock with an average 100gp couldn't possibly afford to spend 40-85 of that 100 on stuff that he wants, but none of them were legitimate *reasons* why rolling and purchasing wouldn't work.
That's probably because there aren't any legitimate reasons why doing what it says to do in the rules needs to be altered.

[Arial Black]

The solution is already in the PHB.

"Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend."

Full stop.

edit:
Incidentally, you didn't answer the question of why you need to do it. But you also kind of did answer it, claiming exactly what I said was the single reason why you'd want it. So for all of the words you typed, all you did was verify what I expected you to say. This being that you have no real reason other than trying to get the most bang for your buck (ie: trying to manipulate the system).
You said a bunch of stuff about a level 1 monk needing a greatsword even though he wouldn't be proficient, and incorrectly claiming that a warlock with an average 100gp couldn't possibly afford to spend 40-85 of that 100 on stuff that he wants, but none of them were legitimate *reasons* why rolling and purchasing wouldn't work.
That's probably because there aren't any legitimate reasons why doing what it says to do in the rules needs to be altered.

"This being that you have no real reason other than trying to get the most bang for your buck (ie: trying to manipulate the system)."

First, you imagine that 'trying to get the most bang for your buck' is somehow cheating, when it's really just rational behaviour.

Second, you imagine that 'following the rules' is somehow 'cheating'(!). If the rules are poorly constructed then that's the fault of the rules, not the player.

Lastly, your quote re: starting wealth just illustrates the fact that the starting money for each class differs, depending on how much they are expected to need to spend on the weapons and armour their proficiencies allow. It usually works for single class PCs but too often fails to do what it is intended to do when it comes to multi-class PCs.

When players 'game the system' here it is not to get rich, it is to start with the required equipment. If you provide another way to get that equipment (examples of which I gave in my previous post) then they wouldn't need to 'game the system' in order to be adequately equipped for their intended role.

[DivisibleByZero]

Lastly, your quote re: starting wealth just illustrates the fact that the starting money for each class differs, depending on how much they are expected to need to spend on the weapons and armour their proficiencies allow. It usually works for single class PCs but too often fails to do what it is intended to do when it comes to multi-class PCs.

Irrelevant.
How many classes do you have at level 1?
IO don't give a crap about whether you plan on multiclassing later. How many classes do you have at level 1, when you get starting cash?
You only need to gear up for that. Nothing more. Anything beyond that is up to you. If we were supposed to anticipate and cover multiclass needs for the secondary class, then they would get the stuff they needed upon multiclassing. Like, a wizard would automatically get a spellbook, even though there is no reason that he needed it as a barbarian.

Nope.
Nice try.

Incidentally, this is the third time that you failed to answer the question I posed.

Explain to me why you can't just roll and purchase stuff like it tells you to. What's the reason you can't just do what it says and instead need to get your packages and sell stuff?
Why?
Answer, or admit that you don't have a good answer.

[Arial Black]

Irrelevant.
How many classes do you have at level 1?
IO don't give a crap about whether you plan on multiclassing later. How many classes do you have at level 1, when you get starting cash?
You only need to gear up for that. Nothing more. Anything beyond that is up to you. If we were supposed to anticipate and cover multiclass needs for the secondary class, then they would get the stuff they needed upon multiclassing. Like, a wizard would automatically get a spellbook, even though there is no reason that he needed it as a barbarian.

Nope.
Nice try.

It might not matter to you but it does matter to players trying to make a coherent MC PC.

Also, a SINGLE CLASS Hexblade runs into this problem. A 1st level PC without the requisite equipment. A problem that needs solving. Within the rules I can choose option one, sell stuff buy stuff, no rules broken.


Incidentally, this is the third time that you failed to answer the question I posed.

"Explain to me why you can't just roll and purchase stuff like it tells you to. What's the reason you can't just do what it says and instead need to get your packages and sell stuff?
Why?"

Answer, or admit that you don't have a good answer.

I've answered it a few times. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I didn't give it.

To re-iterate: the rules give some classes more starting money than others, reflecting that some classes need to purchase expensive arms and armour. But those rules fail to properly equip Hexblades, as well as some MC combinations.

I remember at the start of AL then ALL PCs started with a flat 200gp, no matter what class they were. That rule worked perfectly, and would still work with Hexblade or any MC combination desired.

[DivisibleByZero]

Also, a SINGLE CLASS Hexblade runs into this problem. A 1st level PC without the requisite equipment. A problem that needs solving. Within the rules I can choose option one, sell stuff buy stuff, no rules broken.

I've answered it a few times. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I didn't give it.

To re-iterate: the rules give some classes more starting money than others, reflecting that some classes need to purchase expensive arms and armour. But those rules fail to properly equip Hexblades, as well as some MC

One more time for you. Muticlassing is not relevant.
Multiclassing is a Optional Rule. And even if I were to agree that many games use this optional rule, it does nothing to change the fact that you get one class at level one, and you get starting equipment or cash to gear up for that one class.
Multiclassing is not a legitimate reason. Not even close.

And no, you haven't given reasons why it's needed. You've given reasons why you WANT it, but not why it's NEEDED, nor why rolling is inadequate.

The rules give you exactly as much cash as you need. Your warlock, who somehow can't afford to buy what he needs? He starts with 4d4x10gp. That's 100 on average. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but 100 on average. He can buy medium armor (10gp) a d8 versatile weapon (15gp) and a shield (10gp) for 35 gold. He could actually get that same weapon with a different damage type for 1gp, making his total 21gp.
Even if he rolls terribly (getting four 1s), he can still afford this gear by only spending HALF of his starting cash. If he rolls minimum he can gear himself up adequately. If he rolls better he can gear himself up better.

He can roll MINIMUM, and only spend HALF of his starting cash, and have medium armor, a shield, and a d8 versatile weapon.
So please continue telling me how he cannot possibly start with the gear that he has proficiencies for.

Heck, a druid only gets 2d4x10. He has medium/shield proficiency. He could roll MINIMUM, get lucky and find a single gold between the cushions of his couch, and get himself geared up in the same way. So please, keep telling me that someone who starts with twice as much cash as a druid can't possibly do the same thing.

Still waiting to hear a legitimate reason other than "but I want to." Because the "reasons" you've given so far are either irrelevant or flat out false.

[Arial Black]

Here is the original post again:-

"Warlock
Starting equipment. PHB 107.
LCB or simple weapon, pouch or focus, pack leather, simple weapon, two daggers.

Hexblade in Xanathars
Proficiency at first level to medium armor, shields, martial weapons.
Do you start equipped like all PHB Warlocks, buy Medium Armor, shields and/or martial weapons as you adventure or do you start somehow equipped with your proficiency equipment?"

So his DM is using that option. This is the option he's asking about.

The available equipment works fine for normal warlock with their proficiencies, but not for the Hexblade because there are no options for any medium armour, shield or martial weapon.

Compare this to the equipment list for clerics. This list is for a class that has light/medium armour and simple weapon proficiencies, but might have heavy armour and/or martial weapon proficiencies depending on which Domain they choose. In exactly the same way as, post-Xanathar's, warlocks might have medium armour, shield, and martial weapon proficiencies.

'Cleric equipment (PHB p57)' begins:-
* (a) a mace or (b) a warhammer (IF PROFICIENT)
* (a) scale mail, (b) leather armour, or (c) chain mail (IF PROFICIENT)

This makes sure that the starting cleric can begin with a martial weapon and some heavy armour if their chosen domain gives then the proficiency. Because the game itself assumes civilised characters have access to, and need, the basic equipment that matches their proficiencies.

Why doesn't the warlock equipment have those 'if proficient' options to cater for Hexblades? Because Hexblades are not in the PHB! But they certainly would have had similar options if Hexblades had been in the PHB.

The game itself thinks that such proficiency-matching equipment is needed rather than just 'wanted'. So the warlock equipment fails 5e's own standard for starting equipment. We know why: Hexblades didn't exist when the PHB was written. But now that Hexblades exist this lack is a problem that needs solving.

[DivisibleByZero]

Here is the original post again:-
<snip>
The available equipment works fine for normal warlock with their proficiencies, but not for the Hexblade because there are no options for any medium armour, shield or martial weapon.
<snip>
The game itself thinks that such proficiency-matching equipment is needed rather than just 'wanted'. So the warlock equipment fails 5e's own standard for starting equipment. We know why: Hexblades didn't exist when the PHB was written. But now that Hexblades exist this lack is a problem that needs solving.

The Hexblade is fine, because one of the default options is to roll starting wealth and purchase starting equipment.
You cannot IGNORE what written in the book as an option and then claim that the options are all insufficient.
It is NOT a problem which needs solving because the solution already exists. It's written right in the PHB.
You claimed:

A single class warlock has proficiency in light armour but not medium or shield; in simple but not martial weapons. But a patron available at 1st level grants medium armour, shield, and martial weapon proficiency. The philosophy of the game is to equip PCs with the stuff that they are proficient in using, but the rules fail here. The equipment package has no option for medium armour, shield, or martial weapon, and the random starting gold for warlocks is not enough to purchase that stuff, even though the starting gold for warrior-type classes would be enough.
<snip>
This is a problem. Solve it.

Full Stop.

Again, it is not a problem which needs fixing because a solution already exists. The rules do not fail here because they specifically grant you a way to do exactly what you're claiming can't be done.
There is no failure.
You also claimed:

Also, a SINGLE CLASS Hexblade runs into this problem. A 1st level PC without the requisite equipment. A problem that needs solving.

... which I have already disproved. A first level Warlock who rolls MINIMUM starting wealth on four total dice, has to only spend 21 of his 40 gold to get medium armor, a shield, and a weapon.
There is no failure.
The rules already give you a way to do what you're claiming cannot be done.
So explain to me exactly why we NEED to allow a third option, other than "because I want to." You cannot give a legitimate reason, because what you're claiming cannot be done absolutely can be done. The "requisite equipment" is completely in reach. You just aren't happy that you might roll poorly and won't be able to start with the best equipment possible.

You WANT the best. You WANT a third option.
I get that.
You do not NEED the best. Not right away. You do not NEED a third option. The second option is adequate for your needs.

I'm going to repeat these for you.

So the warlock equipment fails 5e's own standard for starting equipment.
--
the random starting gold for warlocks is not enough to purchase that stuff,
--
Also, a SINGLE CLASS Hexblade runs into this problem. A 1st level PC without the requisite equipment. A problem that needs solving.
All patently false.
Just because you do not personally LIKE the roll and purchase method does NOT mean that the roll and purchase method is insufficient.
It just means that you don't like it.

You may as well be complaining that Fighters and Paladins don't get to start with Full Plate as part of their packages....

[Arial Black]

The Hexblade is fine, because one of the default options is to roll starting wealth and purchase starting equipment.

And one of the options doesn't work. It needs fixing on its own (lack of) merit. And if you say that each class gets TWO options, then the fact that Hexblade only gets ONE viable option is a problem that needs fixing, because if you don't then you are nerfing this option.


Just because you do not personally LIKE the roll and purchase method does NOT mean that the roll and purchase method is insufficient.

Just because you personally do NOT like people choosing that method and THEN bartering to get the equipment they want does not mean that your meta-game nerf is acceptable.

I choose what my PC does in-game, as long as what I choose is reasonable given my abilities and the environment. If you have already ruled we come from a place where trading takes place and my desired equipment can be purchased, then it is absurd to suddenly rule that I cannot possibly have sold my light crossbow and used the money to by a greatsword that you already ruled was a weapon I could buy and that if I find a weapon (such as a crossbow) on my adventure then per the rules I can sell it for half price.

There is no reason in the game world that I can sell a crossbow I find but cannot possibly sell one I already had. You are making nonsense decisions to back your irrational hatred of what you imagine is 'gaming the system'!

In real life I can buy and sell shares. If I choose to buy low and sell high, am I gaming the system? Sure, that's the rational thing to do! But if you were DMing this game of 'Real Life-the RPG' then for some reason the universe artificially somehow prevents me from making a profit!

What you are ruling is absurd, and your motive for that ruling doesn't improve the game it just upsets one player for no rational reason.

[DivisibleByZero]

And one of the options doesn't work.

And the other one does. So use that one.
/discussion

[Arial Black]

And the other one does. So use that one.
/discussion

Not quite /discussion. :smallsmile:

So every 1st level PC gets two options...except Hexblades? That's your 'solution'?

In our discussion we have mention the TWO methods in the PHB re: starting equipment:-

Option #1: choose from the equipment list in the class description, your chosen background, and spend any money on more equipment if you want.
Option #2: roll the dice for your class to determine starting money, then spend that money on equipment.

We agree about this. Two options, and two options only.

You imagine that those on our side of the debate want a THIRD option: use option #1 and then sell stuff at half price to buy other stuff.

But the truth is that this is not a THIRD option! It is option #1, and then doing other stuff that PCs can do (buy/sell) following the 'half price' rule. This is not a separate option!

And the way you prevent this most normal of events is to magically prevent in-game characters from selling stuff!

Here's an illustration of just how absurd that is, by peeking into a new campaign as you would run it:-

Scene: exterior of Madame Higginbottom's Weapons Emporium And Pie Shop: We Buy And Sell New And Used Weapons. Two young men, who look identical, walk into the shop.

Scene: interior of same shop. The young men approach the counter, behind which stands Madame Higginbottom herself.

Madame: Good morning young sirs! What can I do for you?

John: Morning! My twin brother James and I are here to sell. I have a crossbow which I just inherited from my uncle. I don't need it, but I do need a new sword.

James: I also have a crossbow to sell. I took it off a dead guy we passed on the way here.

John: So Madame, I believe half price is the government mandated rate. So I make that....

Madame: Not so fast! I'll buy your brother's crossbow, at the government mandated rate! But I will not by yours, sir! You are trying to cheat!

John: What are you talking about? I legitimately inherited this legally. I have the legal documentation on my person, and even have my uncle's original receipt!

James: We thought that, if anything, you would refuse to buy my crossbow on account that I just stole it from a dead body, when I should really return it to the dead thug's family!

Madame: Selling stolen goods is not a problem for me. The problem with your crossbow is that you started your adventuring career with it!

John: ....What? My what?

Madame: I can tell by looking that you two are about to begin a career in adventuring. Therefore, I am not permitted to by anything you already had before you set out to the shop, but I'm okay with buying the crossbow you found on the way because, technically, you found that while adventuring.

James: What is this 'adventuring' you speak of? We plan to travel to the big city to get jobs in the Palace Guard. We have another uncle who going to put a good word in for us.

John: There have been rumours of increasing trouble with the local goblin tribes, but that's why we want to get the weapons that best suit our training.

Madame: Not my business! I'm not allowed to buy anything unless you found it on an adventure, and that's final.

James: Can you direct us to a weapons shop that is allowed?

Madame: No, nobody is allowed.

John: Says who?

Madame: ....I don't want to say.

John: Say it anyway! Who says you're not allowed to? The local lord? The King? Guild rules?

Madame: ...Alright, I didn't want to say this out loud, but all of our lives are governed by a mysterious, all-powerful being known as The Dungeon Master, and he tells us what we can and can't do!

John: You mean, he's a god? What pantheon? I've never heard of him.

Madame: No, no, he's not a god. He's not of this world, or even this multiverse. He's outside of our reality, but controls everything we do! I'm an NPC; I don't even have a full set of stats I can call my own! Meanwhile, you boys are what we call 'First Level Adventurers', and different rules apply to you.

James: How do you know that we are these...'adventurers'?

Madame: I know, because he knows.

John: You're out of your tiny mind. Come on bro', let's go and buy some bread.

Scene: interior of the Breads R Us bakery.

John: Two loaves of bread please:

Baker (who's such a minor NPC that he doesn't have a name. Okay, if you insist, his name is Mr. Baker. Happy now?): Certainly sir.

James: Wait! Did you already have these loaves, or did you find them while adventuring?