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Whit
2018-02-12, 02:45 PM
I’m reposting this as there was confusion if it was 5ed.
It is not. But it can assist you in any edition.

http://easydamus.com/lawfulgood.html

This interesting website is a view from 3 or 3.5 edition on alignments, but I don’t see why it can’t be helpful in 5ed role play as alignment is a subjective role play not a rule on attacks or saves.

It’s informative and lists all alignments In general to specific for governments to characters. If you are wondeing what can help you understand an alignment and assist you in roleplaying better, Check it out, take what you like and discard what you dont like about it and have fun.

Once again alignment isn’t a must do strict guide to follow, it’s a fluid guideline and I think this site can help players and dms with questions about alignments
Here is the lawful good version in its entirety. Some I like, some I don’t like, but either way you can take what you like an add to your roleplaying

Lawful Good

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. He combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Lawful good can be a dangerous alignment when it restricts freedom and criminalizes self-interest.

While strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. The are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest. (1)

Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. These characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm. (2)

These characters have a strong moral character. Truth, honor, and the welfare of others is all-important. They are convinced that order and laws are absolutely necessary to assure that goodness prevails. Lawful good beings will not want to lie or cheat anyone, good or evil. They will not stand for treachery and will not let obviously dishonorable people use their own honor against them, if they can help it. They will obey the laws and customs of the area that they are in, but will attempt to find legal loopholes to disobey a law which is clearly evil or unjust. (3)

Lawful good characters are group and order oriented, and will cooperate with authority in all cases to promote the common weal. Not all lawful good beings view the cosmos with an equal desire for lawfulness and goodness, so there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced "lawful good" attitude (nor a perfectly balanced attitude for any other alignment, for that matter). In general, however, a lawful good character promotes the ideals and rights of the majority over those of the individual (and this includes himself as well as others) and upholds the rights of the weak and oppressed members of society, who should be allowed to reap society's benefits with equanimity. The lawful good being feels this is the best way that all members of society can enjoy the rights of existence together. Life is important to the lawful good being, but life is not exclusive of order, and vice versa. (4)

Lawful good can appear to be a difficult alignment to uphold, but it must be remembered that lawful good characters are not necessarily naive or unrealistic. At the heart of a lawful good alignment is the belief in a system of laws that promotes the welfare of all members of a society, ensures their safety, and guarantees justice. So long as the laws are just and applied fairly to all people, it doesn't matter to the lawful good character whether they originate from a democracy or a dictator. Though all lawful good systems adhere to the same general principles, specific laws may be different. One society may allow a wife to have two husbands, another may enforce strict monogamy. Gambling may be tolerated in one system, forbidden in another. A lawful good character respects the laws of other lawful good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens. (5)

However, a lawful good character will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a lawful good character may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In this character's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, he may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture, may force the lawful good character to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The lawful good character's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a lawful good character might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area. (5)

When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being. (5)

A lawful good character will keep his word if he gives it and will never lie. He will never attack an unarmed foe and will never harm an innocent. He will not use torture to extract information or for pleasure. He will never kill for pleasure, only in self-defense or in the defense of others. A lawful good character will never use poison. He will help those in need and he prefers to work with others. He responds well to higher authority, is trustful of organizations, and will always follow the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend (though he will attempt to bring an immoral or law-breaking friend to justice, in order to rehabilitate that person). Lawful good characters respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor. (6)

Here are some possible adjectives describing lawful good characters: friendly, courteous, sensitive to the feelings of others, scrupulous, honorable, trustworthy, reliable, helpful, loyal, and respectful of "life, love, and the pursuit of happiness."

Well known lawful good characters from film or literature include: Luke Skywalker (Star Wars), Mister Spock (Star Trek), Hermione Granger (Harry Potter), and Superman (DC Comics).

Equivalent alignment in other game systems: Principled (Palladium), Road of Heaven (Vampire), Light Side (Star Wars), Law (Warhammer), Virtuous and Ethical (Alternity).

The Ten Lawful Good Commandments

A list of Ten Commandments for a lawful good religion may look like this:

1. You shall not lie.

2. You shall not harm the innocent.

3. You shall not murder.

4. You shall help the needy.

5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes goodness.

6. You shall follow the law.

7. You shall not betray others.

8. You shall bring criminals and evil-doers to justice.

9. You shall not steal.

10. You shall seek unlimited good for others and unlimited order in society.

Ten Lawful Good Sins

Likewise, a lawful good religion may list the following as sins. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.

1. Failing to show respect to lawful good churches, governments, and/or beings.

2. Failing to speak out against corruption, sin, greed, pride, etc.

3. Being motivated by pride, avarice, gluttony, or some other sinful impulse.

4. Theft, robbery, or willful vandalism.

5. Causing harm to a pious or virtuous being.

6. Failing to assist or aid good beings when in need.

7. Blasphemous or heretical acts.

8. Allowing a crime or major act of evil to go unpunished.

9. The murder of an innocent.

10. Aiding the servants of Chaos and Evil.

The Lawful Good Adventurer

The following two lists detail common actions undertaken during "adventuring" that are considered honorable and dishonorable for the lawful good alignment. An honorable action is one that is in keeping with the spirit of this alignment, while dishonorable actions tend to be those which bring shame to the character in the eyes of his or her alignment peers. Note that an action which is considered honorable by one alignment may be considered dishonorable by another alignment and vice versa.

The following actions are honorable for this alignment:

Allowing a disarmed enemy to pick up his weapon

Allowing the enemy to attack first

Allowing the enemy to remove their dead/wounded from the field

Defeating a superior opponent

Picking up the funeral expenses of someone you slew in combat

Refusing medical treatment for the good of the party

Reporting illegal and immoral actions to the authorities

Saving the life of another at great risk to own self

Taking an arrow or hit for someone else

Taking prisoners

The following actions are dishonorable for this alignment:

Accused of crime (innocent or not)

Attacking an unarmed or obviously inferior opponent

Being taken prisoner

Convicted of a crime

Defeated by an inferior opponent

Delivering death blow to a helpless opponent

Desecrating an enemy's corpse

Dirty fighting

Falsely claiming the 'bragging rights' that belong to another or outright lying

Fleeing a battle that's obviously going poorly

Fleeing a fight with a superior opponent

Fleeing a fight with an equal opponent

Gloating over a victory

Killing a host who has provided you food or shelter

Neglecting to properly bury a member of one's own race

Paying off an extortionist or shake-down

Perpetrate humiliating prank on enemy

Rash or improper social behavior

Refusing a fair contest/challenge

Surrendering

Taking a bribe

Taunting an enemy into fighting

Treason

Unjustly slaying a prisoner or unarmed opponent who has yielded

Walking away from a challenge

Lawful Good and Society

A lawful good being...

Respects the authority figures in his family and obeys their mandates.

Values lifelong commitment to a romantic partner.

Obeys all personal contracts.

Respects the laws and authority figures of the community and nation.

Considers public service in a leadership role an honor.

Supports the legal procedures of the nation, without regard to their own discomfort.

Seeks secure employment, believing hard work will pay off in the end.

Will not want to disappoint his family.

Will support their family even if it means personal discomfort.

Will never betray a friend and enjoys having close friends.

Considers the needs of the community in personal life.

Will give his life in defense of his community.

Will take actions to aid others during times of crisis, even if unprofitable to do so.

Believes everyone should be treated fairly and kindly.

Feels guilt when he commits a wrongdoing and will seek to right his wrong.

Uses wealth to help others who are less fortunate.

A community with a lawful good government usually has a codified set of laws, and most people willingly obey those laws. In a lawful good society, the people are generally honest, law-abiding, and helpful. They mean well (at least most of them do). They respect the law. As a rule, people don't walk around wearing armor and carrying weapons. Those who do are viewed with suspicion or as trouble-makers. Some societies tend to dislike adventurers, since they often bring trouble.

Lawful Good and Other Alignments

Lawful Good vs. Lawful Neutral

Conflict between lawful neutral and lawful good characters will center around the nature of laws. Lawful good characters want laws to protect the weak and punish the wicked, while lawful neutral characters are only interested in maintaining or expanding laws to cover every foreseeable problem within society without compassion or moral judgment. Lawful neutral characters will apply laws in a rigid manner, not worrying about whether the spirit of the law is upheld. It is the letter that is important to them. The language of the social compact and the wording of laws are all they are interested in, since that is all that is apparent from written documents. A lawful good character will be just as offended by a lawful neutral character's preference of letter over spirit as they are contemptuous of the neutral good character's insistence that the spirit is more important. The lawful good character will question the utility of laws that do not take into account all circumstances to provide a just and equitable settlement that coincides with their moral beliefs. The lawful neutral character does not consider morality when applying laws, only the effectiveness of the law to keep society stable.

Lawful Good vs. Neutral Good

Since neutral good characters see no inherent worth in laws, other than how well they provide for the common good, they may disagree with lawful good characters on a number of issues. Conflicts between characters of these types will center around the lawful good character always wanting to work within the law to accomplish good, even if breaking the law might result in more good for people. They will not accept the neutral good character's argument that working around the law is sometimes a better way to accomplish the spirit of the law. To lawful good characters, the letter and spirit of good laws should not be violated. They see a legal system as something that should be followed, as long as it is good, even if an illegal, or shady way might accomplish better results. Neutral good characters will be disgusted by their lawful good allies' adherence to laws, when the path is clear for them--break the law. Lawful good characters will contend that if they do not follow the law to accomplish what is right, how are they different from criminals? Their ethical sensibilities will be offended by the way that a neutral good character might do things.

Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil

When operating as leaders within society, this is how characters of these three alignments may behave. The lawful neutral character will advance the aims of society and apply the law impartially to all citizens. He will follow laws and fight to ensure that all citizens follow laws. He will use legitimate means to change to social order if the state would benefit more from the change. He will promote fairness, using the law to reward those who act in accordance with the social order and punish those who act to the detriment of the state. He will tolerate corruption as long as the strength of the state is not jeopardized. The lawful neutral character will enjoy his position and its perks, but will not abuse his authority. The lawful good character will view his position as an opportunity to selflessly serve his fellow citizens. He will work to increase weal throughout society through the apparatus of the state. He will tirelessly fight corruption and work to eliminate social ills such as poverty, uneven wealth distribution, abuse by the state, and other problems. The lawful evil character will use his position of power over others to ruthlessly pursue his own agenda using the apparatus of the state. He will follow laws and encourage all citizens to follow laws by severely punishing criminals. He will increase his own wealth and power at the expense of the population as long as he can use legal means. The lawful evil character views his position as proof of his superiority over the common rabble.

Lawful Good, Neutral Good, and Chaotic Good

In situations where goodness must be advanced in society, this is how characters of these different alignments may respond. The lawful good character will promote weal throughout society through increased legislation or a more powerful government. They will work to provide laws and procedures to protect the population against every foreseeable ill in society. They will protect citizens against abuse from unscrupulous individuals. They will advocate and construct power structures and economic systems that provide the most benefit for the population as a whole. Lawful good characters will provide equality of result. The chaotic good character will promote happiness in society by increasing freedom and allowing its citizens to decide the best way to increase prosperity for all. They will promote systems which give maximum freedom and opportunity for citizens to increase their own happiness and the happiness of others. They will ensure that the population is protected against every possible abuse by the governing system. Chaotic good characters will provide equality of opportunity. Neutral good character will build a system that promotes both harmony and freedom. They will attempt to balance opportunity and results. They will use only enough laws and order to protect the freedom of its citizens to promote prosperity and happiness for all. They will guard the population against abuses from within the power structure, but also against abuses from individuals. Neutral good characters will build a flexible social order that allows both public and private action to increase goodness in society.

How Lawful Good Views the Other Alignments

The chart below shows how Lawful Good views itself and the other eight alignments.

Lawful Good

Honorable and Humane Neutral Good

Humane but Unreliable Chaotic Good

Humane but Dishonorable
Lawful Neutral

Honorable but Apathetic True
Neutral

Unreliable and Apathetic Chaotic Neutral

Dishonorable and Apathetic
Lawful Evil

Honorable but Ruthless Neutral Evil

Unreliable and Ruthless Chaotic Evil

Dishonorable and Ruthless
Lawfuls tend to view actions on a scale ranging from honorable to dishonorable. They hold themselves honorable while chaotics are seen as dishonorable in their eyes. Lawfuls view ethical neutrals as unreliable as they are concerned with doing the right thing some of the time whereas other times they seem to disregard society's expectations.

Characters of good alignment wish to advance altruism, compassion, and mercy. They view themselves as humane. At the opposite end of this spectrum is ruthlessness, while moral neutrals are seen as indifferent and apathetic.

The Philosophy of Lawful Good

Lawful good is the philosophy that goodness is best achieved through law and order. It is a philosophy of altruistic collectivism. This philosophy holds that people should behave altruistically and put the needs of the group ahead of individual desires. Lawful good can also be associated with rule utilitarianism and ethical altruism.

Lawful good philosophers generally maintain that there is metaphysical order in the multiverse and thus may support doctrines of hard determinism, predeterminism, fatalism, predestination, and/or necessitarianism. They may believe in fate or destiny. They tend to be moral objectivists, holding that values exist in the external world independently of and external to our comprehension of them; that they can be found and known; and that they must be used as principles for human judgments and conduct.

The ideal government for this alignment is an authoritarian state with codified laws supporting a social order in which altruism is rewarded and radical egoism is punished. Lawful good beings want the power of the state to be used for the benefit of all. Rehabilitative justice is used to reform criminals and evil-doers.

Sigreid
2018-02-12, 02:53 PM
I really think a better move is to ignore alignment and just ask the players to think about what there character believes is important, where the lines they will not cross are, etc. In short, what kind of man or woman do they want their character to be.

Whit
2018-02-12, 03:05 PM
That’s a valid point for players. And perhaps that was the games way of trying to simplify it by writing down an alignment instead of players having to express it.

The main point I believe is your general concept of rules in general and your own view Law neutral or chaotic and your morality in general. Are you good and willing to help people you don’t know, are you neutral and let things be as they are or evil and get away with what you can at the expense of others

Of course there’s more to it than just that

Sigreid
2018-02-12, 03:08 PM
That’s a valid point for players. And perhaps that was the games way of trying to simplify it by writing down an alignment instead of players having to express it.

The main point I believe is your general concept of rules in general and your own view Law neutral or chaotic and your morality in general. Are you good and willing to help people you don’t know, are you neutral and let things be as they are or evil and get away with what you can at the expense of others

Of course there’s more to it than just that

I do think alignments have a place in the game that's along these lines. They're good for monsters and NPCs as a shorthand for the DM on how to generally play them.

Whit
2018-02-12, 03:38 PM
I agree alignment on monsters npc etc are more important. I just hazard to guess if players don’t have one you would see the pendulum swing far left and far right for some players based on whim from game to game.

I’ve played since 78 and seen all the different alignments. I might be wrong off the top of me head but I think if you picked a dwarf you had a specific alignment. LG or Good?

Personally I don’t like the 9 alignments. First, most games won’t have evil alignments, second the wrong type of evil player can ruin the game, 3rd you run into the Specific LE CG path. What’s the use of playing CG if your roleplay is mostly NG. Just play NG or the person who can’t p,ay evil so they go CN so they can do evil things when they want.

I’d rather see a more limited LG NG or CG or Neutral option or to make it broad pick good or neutral. That way you can decide when you follow laws or not but your good. Or if your neutral, you care about your close friends family but strangers are just that. They are in the situation they are in.
You find a caravan under attack by bandits. The XGood player says we nust hep them, the neutral says it’s the cycle of life either they make it or don’t without us getting involved and hurt. The CN says let’s kill the bandits tend the wounded and take compensation for our troubles.

The XGood charged in. The Neutral says idiot, now we are involved but I can’t leave friend to fight alone and the CN says yea. Let’s have some fun

Sigreid
2018-02-12, 03:44 PM
My experience has been that players, at least long term players, settle into a pretty consistent morality.

I've played since about 78 as well. Dwarves didn't have to be LG, but the ones in the MM were and it was the norm. It was also different since they got combat bonuses against some opponents (orcs and giants I think) and the cultural norm was to attack them on sight with no provocation.

KorvinStarmast
2018-02-12, 03:47 PM
The best, or at least a very good, way to role play in 5ed insofar as alignment is concerned, is to forget what you learned about alignment in previous editions.

Just let it go. Don't try to shoehorn a size 11 foot into a size 7 shoe.

Whit
2018-02-12, 04:06 PM
Fantastic Sieg. Wasn’t there a specific alignment for a race or was it race class like elf was a Mage fighter?

3d6 stats with that blue dice you had to color in with the black crayon. I liked the simplicity back then even though as kids we thought Keep borderlands Minotaur treasure at first was 3 jewelry pieces equaled 3,100,000(?) not individual. Good times when you didn’t know what the creatures were.

And your rightabout going in for the kill. Didn’t the orcs goblins etc have a list of women in the rooms as well.

Whit
2018-02-12, 04:21 PM
The best, or at least a very good, way to role play in 5ed insofar as alignment is concerned, is to forget what you learned about alignment in previous editions.

Just let it go. Don't try to shoehorn a size 11 foot into a size 7 shoe.

True Korv. PHB 5ed alignment. which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes.

With such a broad brush for LG NG CG N LE NE CE CN there will be overlaps and where does the player draw that line if they should. The broad brush covers both so if I’m LG can I not broad brush to NG N CN CE on occasion. Or is there some specific to how far the broad brush goes. They don’t clarify it or even discuss it or is it a hidden implied message that the player and or dm wheel it in Your broad brush of CN has been more CG or CE. Tone it down.

The CN can broadbrush CG and CE.

I understand what they mean but it can be easily abused and should have been written better

Sigreid
2018-02-12, 05:20 PM
Fantastic Sieg. Wasn’t there a specific alignment for a race or was it race class like elf was a Mage fighter?

3d6 stats with that blue dice you had to color in with the black crayon. I liked the simplicity back then even though as kids we thought Keep borderlands Minotaur treasure at first was 3 jewelry pieces equaled 3,100,000(?) not individual. Good times when you didn’t know what the creatures were.

And your rightabout going in for the kill. Didn’t the orcs goblins etc have a list of women in the rooms as well.

Classes and class levels were limited by race. A PC could be any alignment though the whole system was kind of biased towards what I would call Brutal Good.

KorvinStarmast
2018-02-12, 06:09 PM
I understand what they mean but it can be easily abused and should have been written better Given how much trouble trying to be more precise has been since the two axis model was adopted, I'll offer to you a compelling reason to make it more vague.

From Jeremy Crawford from a series of tweets on 8 February 2018.

Rules in D&D are meant to be a benign tool that we use together to build our shared fun. They should never be used as a weapon against each other. Let the DM settle disputes. At the game table, fun and friendship are the key. #DnD
and also

As DM, letting the rules play out in your game—seeing where the dice fall—can invite all sorts of exciting, funny, scary, or moving moments that you didn't see coming. They let you play a game too. But if you need to improvise something to heighten your group's fun, do it. #DnD Likewise

Understanding the rules—knowing what they do and don't say—is a great foundation for when you want to codify a house rule (as opposed to a quick ruling). Warning: having a bunch of codified house rules risks putting the focus on rules, rather than on story. #DnD
and finally

Knowing the rules well can speed up play. Having rules fluency as a DM also makes it easier to improvise—to speedily come up with ways of resolving unusual situations on the fly. #DnD
Which all started with ...

Why does an open-ended activity like D&D have rules? Rules give us a framework for our play. Rules are also a common language. They're a way to shape what characters do and to determine whether things succeed. Rules help make D&D a game, rather than simply make-believe. #DnD

Rob Kuntz has written a short intro to his longer book recently. He makes the argument that Dave Arneson made a huge paradigm change, a disruption even, in game design by making a game that was not bound by the oldest of rules in game making.

A game is defined by its rules.

Arneson's concept, informed by the Braunstein role playing in the late 60's, is a core piece of what turned into D&D and then into RPGs ... and 20+ years later, people at the Forge and a variety of other RPG designers and thinkers tried to ram the whole hobby back into the older paradigm of "the rules define the game" which by itself isn't anything evil. It's how you distinguish between games and products that you like.

But to capture the "spirit" of the game, which a judge and a court ruled as being so indispensable that Arneson won the court case against Gygax, getting wrapped up in an excess of rules contradicts what the RPG form tries to accomplish.

As the hobby has matured, we get "rules heavy" and "rules light' depending on what people find most engaging and fun.

I'd go with "what's more fun at your table?"

More wrangling over alignment, and more granularity, or less?
Pick which makes your table's games the most fun.

Whit
2018-02-12, 08:37 PM
Good point

opaopajr
2018-02-13, 11:16 AM
If the GM is the one who defines the setting in a hard force sense, such as continents, terrain, sapients, even the gods, then they too are responsible for interpretations of the setting's soft force sense, such as institutions, like governments & bureaucracies, social structures, world views, aesthetics, ethos & morality, and so on.

Further, the GM is responsible for the Inflections (a.k.a. Interpretations) of all these elements in Atmospheric presentation, such as Contrast, Brightness, Humor, Alignment/Path (Ethos), Mood, etc.

So, yeah, OK, you quoted a whole bunch from other books about suggestions and examples on how to approach a fungible concept. But now you have to do the hard work of Making the Setting Your Own. And then later you have to Communicate This Setting to Players, (not all at once, use shorthand trope descriptions of only the critical stuff). The players *may* attempt to negotiate leeway, and always retain veto by walking from the table, but you are not obligated to either Text or Player to bend or break Your Setting to serve their authority.

You're the GM. You're the Authority. Be judicious and responsible with that power, but don't be afraid of it. And the abdication of your power, judgment, and responsibility brings its own unpleasant consequences. :smallsmile:

Now go define Alignment in a way that serves your game. Don't worry about mine or others. And for those who cannot abide, may they find hapiness elsewhere. :smallcool: See? Simple.