Options for An Armored Gish?

[Palanan]

I realize that “armored gish” may be somewhat redundant, but I’m looking for build ideas for a character wearing mithral plate and wielding a two-handed sword. (Not a giant sword, just two-handed.)

This is vague, but I’m just working out the basics and looking for ideas. Can you gish effectively while fighting two-handed? If not, are there workarounds? And what other builds would lend themselves to a plated gish? I’m open to a wide range of suggestions, drawn from any official 3.5 or Paizo source.

[Telonius]

In general, you have a couple of problems to overcome. First, action economy. Most spells take at least a standard action to cast, meaning you can't cast and attack on your turn. There are ways to get around this (Quickened spells, Belts of Battle, Snake's Swiftness from a friendly caster), but they tend to eat up resources.

The second problem is actually being physically capable of casting the spell. Any spell with somatic components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) needs at least one hand free to cast the spell:


Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Taking one hand off a sword isn't particularly defined in the rules, but dropping an item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#dropanItem) is a free action. Taking a hand off, then putting it back on, an item that's under your own control at all times seems to be pretty clearly a free action; any DM I ever had would allow that interpretation.


If your DM agrees, you can take one hand off your 2h sword as a free action, cast the spell, then grip the sword again. This should work in almost any situation you find yourself in (with a couple of odd exceptions, like climbing or dangling off a rope or a cliff). If you have to, you can use Still Spell to ignore somatic components.

[Lapak]

Depending on how much variation you want in your spells available, this is the kind of thing that the Duskblade (3.5) is literally designed to do.

[DEMON]

Are you aiming for the 16+ BAB / 9th level spells kind of gish, or would something like a Duskblade do the trick? It does "gishing" in mithral plate mail pretty much out of the box. 2-handed weapon comes recommended, too.

Also, on the divine side of things - Cleric.

[Telonius]

For Armor, the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane lets you cast in a category one heavier than usual with no arcane failure chance. Good for things like Bards that can cast in light armor normally; with that feat, a Bard could cast in Mithral Fullplate with no penalty (since it counts as medium armor).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Telonius
First, action economy. Most spells take at least a standard action to cast, meaning you can't cast and attack on your turn.

Are there specific class features that can eventually bypass this issue, or is this an issue endemic to most gish builds?


Originally Posted by Lapak
…this is the kind of thing that the Duskblade (3.5) is literally designed to do.


Originally Posted by DEMON
…would something like a Duskblade do the trick? It does "gishing" in mithral plate mail pretty much out of the box. 2-handed weapon comes recommended, too.

Interesting, thanks. How does a duskblade compare with the Pathfinder magus, in terms of armor and ease of two-handed fighting? The baseline magus is only proficient in light armor, but I don’t know if there’s an archetype that extends this to heavier armor.


Originally Posted by DEMON
Also, on the divine side of things - Cleric.

I should’ve mentioned I’m interested in arcane-only right now—but I’m open to a wide range of potential builds.


Originally Posted by Telonius
For Armor, the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane lets you cast in a category one heavier than usual with no arcane failure chance.

Very interesting, thanks. Would it be reasonable to apply this to a magus build in a Pathfinder game?

[Kurald Galain]

First, action economy. Most spells take at least a standard action to cast, meaning you can't cast and attack on your turn.
The obvious answer is Magus :smallamused:

They get heavy armor proficiency at higher level, too. Use a bastard sword and you can switch between wielding it one-handed (to cast) and two-handed (to attack). So far, straight Magus/20 seems to fulfill all of the OP's requirements.

Magus guide (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) :smallcool:

[A_S]

Are there specific class features that can eventually bypass this issue, or is this an issue endemic to most gish builds?
Duskblade and Magus both provide class feature support for combining armed attacks with spellcasting; Duskblade lends itself better to doing so with a two-handed weapon (the Magus is more designed around "dual wielding" spells in one hand and a weapon in the other), but Kurald Galain's bastard sword idea above can work around this if you end up liking Magus better.

[DEMON]

Interesting, thanks. How does a duskblade compare with the Pathfinder magus, in terms of armor and ease of two-handed fighting? The baseline magus is only proficient in light armor, but I don’t know if there’s an archetype that extends this to heavier armor.

I know next to nothing of Magus (or most anything PF-related) to make an educated guess, but Kurald Galain seems to have this covered well enough.

Duskblades are proficient with all armors and shields (sans tower and exotic) and can cast in light armor from the get go and medium armor (including mithral full plate) from level 4 onwards.

With the Battle Caster feat, you can do medium armor @ 1st and full plate @ 4th without the need for mithral. Going by the "putting a hand off a 2-handed weapon and back on is a free action" ruling, there's absolutely nothing preventing them from 2-handed fighting. I prefer guisarme for this.

They also get the aility to quick-cast a spell (i.e. cast a standard action spell as a swift action) up to 5 times a day, so that is indeed a class feature that can help with the action economy issue. So does Arcane Channeling.

They also also have a ton of spells per day (and rather few spells known), even though they only can cast 5th level spells at best (some of the spells on their list are higher level spells for the standard full-casters, though). Ring of Wizardry comes in very handy here, btw.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks. It looks like both duskblade and magus have some good options to work with.

That said, what are some other classic gish builds to consider? Is the magus the only viable gish option in Pathfinder, or are there others? And are there any PrCs that would complement either the duskblade or the magus?

[Galacktic]

Phone posting but other viable gishes in Pathfinder:

Warpriest
Alchemist
Inquisitor
Investigator
Mage Slayer (PoW PRC)

[Deadline]

If you want to do this with a Sorcerer or Wizard base, you are looking at three options:


Runesmith. Requires that you are a Dwarf (or Stoneblessed(Dwarf)).
Spellsword. Loses caster levels and will likely require at least some ASF shenanigans. There are a couple of other PrC's that offer ASF reductions as well, but I can't recall them off-hand.
ASF Shenanigans. There are several materials and additions you can add to armor to lower ASF, often to the point of negating it.


Edit - I'd add that a Bard/Sublime Chord/Abjurant Champion with the Battlecaster feat is a solid choice for gishing in armor.

[A_S]

That said, what are some other classic gish builds to consider? Is the magus the only viable gish option in Pathfinder, or are there others? And are there any PrCs that would complement either the duskblade or the magus?
Classic gish builds in 3.5 include:

Sorcadin (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8)
Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) (Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 or Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 4/Spelldancer 1)

These don't have ways to channel spells into attacks, though, so they generally have to do things the old fashioned way (buff themselves up with spells before combat, then choose between attacking and casting each round once the fight starts). At higher levels, you can use Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) or Arcane Spellsurge (if you're a Sorcerer) to cast spells with your swift actions, then attack with your standard/full-round actions.

Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) with Battle Caster can do the Mithral full plate thing. Swiftblade would have to use Still Spell (and/or spells without somatic components), which isn't great.

If you like the Duskblade channeling mechanic but want better spell access at high character levels, you can look into the Sublime Chord prestige class. Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5 gets full attack channeling from Duskblade, but up to 7th level spells off a much better list than straight Duskblade 20 (getting Irresistable Dance as a 6th level spell from the Bard list and being able to channel it is particularly good).

[Falontani]

Rage Mage (complete Warrior) has several things that can be used on a barbarian mage

Warlock (Complete arcane) can be turned into a rather deadly "Gish" although it's "spells" are... different

Tome of Battle has 3 different classes that give many non magical options that seem like magic

Green Pheonix Mage (Tome of battle) is a wonderfully powerful Gish when paired with a good arcane casting

While it wont be easy at low levels Wu Jen from Complete Arcane have the spells to become truly awesome gishes (Giant Size!) (they dont have the armor stuff so may be out of the precept of this)

Binder from Tome of Magic combines some supernatural abilities with cooldowns with a 3/4 bab Chassis, with online vestiges you can easily turn this into a pseudocaster class (Summon Monster aliens provide spells)

Artficer is a 3/4 BAB class from Eberron Campaign Setting that can be turned into anything you want it to be (want a martial, you make it a martial, you want an archer, you got an archer, truly if your DM is allowing you to be an artificer you can build your own class, several guides that I don't have links to exist)

Psychic Warrior is a psionic Gish

And Bard can be a truly deadly Gish if all supplements are available

If I had to choose a favorite among this list it would be Artificer and Rage Mage (although rage mage isn't all that powerful) But this is far from a complete list

[Nebuul]

The second problem is actually being physically capable of casting the spell. Any spell with somatic components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) needs at least one hand free to cast the spell:



Taking one hand off a sword isn't particularly defined in the rules,

This is a non-issue or else wizards couldn't carry staves or wield crossbows. It doesn't require 2 hands to hold a 2h sword, just 2 hands to use it.

[Matrota]

Spellsword does armored casting and you can channel spells through your weapon, but it progresses your casting only every other level, so it's pretty rough in that respect. I recently found about the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin), and taking inspiration from that, it isn't too incredibly outlandish to build a decent gish with these concepts, but you'll be much more focused on buffing yourself and allies rather than tearing the world asunder with magical power. You could follow that path if you choose, but I'd recommend a slightly different build if you want to focus more on spellcasting rather than bardic music.

Step one is to play a paladin. Yes, a paladin. If you take Lost Tradition (Bastards and Bloodlines p. 91), you can make your primary casting stat become any other stat (choose strength) making you much less MAD. A-Game Paladin uses another method for this, playing an Illumian with the Aeshkrau power words. However, Aeshkrau only gives bonus spells based off of strength, whereas Lost Tradition makes save DCs, bonus spells, maximum spell levels, and anything else related to your casting stat affected by this new option. The only downside is Illumian can give +2 CL, which is huge for a paladin with 1/2 CL. Either work, so that decision is up to you.

Take substitution levels in Mystic Fire Knight (Champions of Valor) for +2 CL, as well as one extra spell slot per spell level. Pick the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor), allowing you to have access to wizard spells, but able to cast them as paladin spells, thus meaning you still have no ASF for them. Since you now have access to the wizard spell list, UMD checks for arcane spells become quite easy. Take Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine) to boost your CL by another +4, and pick up Battle Blessing (Complete Champion). Now you have a caster level of 1/2 your level + 6 (or +8 if you went Illumian), STR is your casting stat, and you can cast any standard action spell as a swift action due to Battle Blessing at no metamagic cost. This works for arcane spells too, since they count as paladin spells for you. After this, you might consider going into a prestige class that advances casting even more, since you still only have access of up to 4th level paladin and sorcerer/wizard spells. However, there's no guarantee that your DM will permit prestige classes to advance your arcane casting above 4th level since they're technically paladin spells, even if taken from the wizard list. After all, you're still no wizard. There are better ways to go about doing this, but I personally love the idea of sitting down to a table, telling everyone you're playing a paladin, and proceeding to cast a swift-action haste+celerity+fireball before charging in wearing full plate and wielding a greatsword.

[Thurbane]

Are there specific class features that can eventually bypass this issue, or is this an issue endemic to most gish builds?

Well, it's not a great class, but Havoc Mage (Miniatures Handbook) can specifically attack and cast spells in the same round.

Battlecast (Ex) gives them the ability to cast spells of a certain level and attack as part of a full round action.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Are there specific class features that can eventually bypass this issue, or is this an issue endemic to most gish builds?
Well, it's an issue endemic to the spell-and-sword style of gishing; most builds in that vein do find a way around it, but that requires some effort (and may not come online until mid-high levels). The buff-and-sword style of gishing (such as the wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 10*) does not rely on spellcasting in combat, but on increasing melee power by casting an ungodly amount of long-lasting buff spells, and relies (almost) exclusively on conveniently murderous metallic geometries in combat. Think the Arcane Warrior from Dragon Age, if you happen to know that game: you can spend all your mana on buff spells and fight with your sword only, or you can use few buffs and reserve mana for a fireball or two.


*Requires fractional base attack.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by A_S
Classic gish builds in 3.5 include:
• Sorcadin (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8)


Originally Posted by Matrota
Step one is to play a paladin. Yes, a paladin.

...Take substitution levels in Mystic Fire Knight (Champions of Valor) for +2 CL, as well as one extra spell slot per spell level. Pick the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor), allowing you to have access to wizard spells, but able to cast them as paladin spells, thus meaning you still have no ASF for them.

I appreciate the suggestions, but I’d rather avoid paladin for several reasons.

First, as I should’ve mentioned up front, I’d rather avoid divine casting for this build. But more importantly, paladin brings a lot of baggage with it, and the character concept I have in mind may be doing non-paladin things like seizing control of a kingdom, suppressing rebellions, etc. I know that variants like the paladin of freedom and paladin of tyranny exist, but they don’t really fit the concept.

I’m also not much interested in bards or bardic music; that approach doesn’t fit the concept either. I like the idea of a martial character who studies arcane magic, and who can do more with it than just channeling spells through a weapon.

Can the classic sorcadin be redesigned around something other than a paladin?


Originally Posted by Thurbane
Well, it's not a great class, but Havoc Mage (Miniatures Handbook) can specifically attack and cast spells in the same round.

I don't think I've ever heard of that one. Is it primarily a spellcaster that can also do a little melee?

.

[Thurbane]

I don't think I've ever heard of that one. Is it primarily a spellcaster that can also do a little melee?[/COLOR]

It's a 5 level prestige class: advances casting by 3 levels, medium BAB.

[Zaq]

So it doesn't naturally lend itself to traditional gishing (like, at all), but just because no one has mentioned it yet, Warmage is a 9th level arcane caster that natively gets ASF-free casting in medium armor (at 8th class level with no outside investment, or at 1st class level with a feat and, presumably, proficiency from somewhere else). Its list doesn't have too many good gish spells, it needs a PrC or feat or something to properly channel its boom spells while still attacking, and it has crap BAB for some reason (and doesn't have, y'know, Wizard to make up for it), so I can see why it's not really a primary choice.

That said, I've seen people wring some surprisingly intense mileage out of the class (even without Rainbow Warsnake shenanigans), so if you feel like a challenge and/or a nontraditional build, it might be an interesting pot to paint with.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can the classic sorcadin be redesigned around something other than a paladin?
Yes. The sorcadin is based on the synergy between Charisma-based spellcasting and Divine Grace. There are other synergies like it: crusader 2, battle dancer 1, hexblade 2, marshal 1, and monk 1 (with Ascetic Mage) go with sorcerer. Monk can also go with wizard, using Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius. Marshal and monk do not have full base attack bonus, and are typically at their best for single-level dips; if you are not using fractional base attack bonus rules, I wouldn't recommend them (though monk 2 can be useful in qualifying for certain PrCs, including Swiftblade and Spelldancer).

A sorcadin usually enters Spellsword and Abjurant Champion, requiring +4 base attack for the first; the sorcadin usually gets +2 from paladin 2 and +2 from sorcerer 4. If you are using battle dancer, which grants Charisma to AC at level 1, you'll either want battle dancer 1/sorcerer 6 (entering Spellsword a bit later than usual), or a substitute, such as battle dancer 1/sorcerer 4/crusader 1 (ToB levels are better taken late, to maximize the level of maneuvers gained--if you need survivability at low levels, move it to level 1--crusaders are super tanky). However, I would recommend looking at the possibility of PrCs for those sorcerer levels, as in battle dancer 1/sorcerer 5/mindbender 1 (Mindbender grants telepathy at level 1).


You can also go wizard 6/swiftblade 9, or, slightly more martial, warblade 1/wizard 5/swiftblade 9. Wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 9 is the most powerful, but Spelldancer is notoriously hard to qualify for, especially on a wizard at ECL 6 (it requires Perform, Tumble, and four feats--two of which are mercifully shared with Swiftblade). An easy route into Spelldancer, which comes online later, is something like battle dancer 1/sorcerer 6/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 9, battle dancer taking care of Perform and Tumble. If you have skill ranks to spare, replace sorcerer 6 with Mindbender 1.

[Eldariel]

Enough Spellsword can be fit into a Sublime Chord build to get Channel Spell. Polymorph can get you extra actions, as can Celerity & co. There are plenty of natively swift action spells that go well with casting and full attacking. You can work with it.

[Aimeryan]

As no one has yet mentioned it, Ardent can fit the bill.

Use the Substitution ACF, and the preferably the Dominant Ideal ACF with something like a Freedom Mantle, and you can build yourself a custom gish.

Full manifester and can take Practiced Manifester feat to allow up to 4 dip levels at no cost to manifesting. Powers available can be pretty awesome for a gish; Dimension Hop, Greater Concealing Amorpha, Fly, Expansion (up to Huge), Damp Power, Share Pain+Vigor+Psicrystal trick, etc. Numerous out-of-combat choices as well, which make for more interesting play.

Four levels in a Full BAB class will get you to +16 BAB. Two levels of Berserker for Pounce and Improved Trip is an obvious choice, as is two levels of Fighter for extra feats.

[Eldariel]

As no one has yet mentioned it, Ardent can fit the bill.

Use the Substitution ACF, and the preferably the Dominant Ideal ACF with something like a Freedom Mantle, and you can build yourself a custom gish.

Full manifester and can take Practiced Manifester feat to allow up to 4 dip levels at no cost to manifesting. Powers available can be pretty awesome for a gish; Dimension Hop, Greater Concealing Amorpha, Fly, Expansion (up to Huge), Damp Power, Share Pain+Vigor+Psicrystal trick, etc. Numerous out-of-combat choices as well, which make for more interesting play.

Four levels in a Full BAB class will get you to +16 BAB. Berserker for Pounce is an obvious choice, as is Fighter/Psychic Warrior for extra feats.

Psionics in general makes this easy. Schism for extra power per turn, Control Body for Int-based combat stats, Temporal Acceleration for low level full buff sequence, Synchronity/Linked Power for extra actions out of nowhere, Hustle/Linked Power for a slightly less broken source of Quickening, etc. Psionics are great.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
Yes. The sorcadin is based on the synergy between Charisma-based spellcasting and Divine Grace. There are other synergies like it: crusader 2, battle dancer 1, hexblade 2, marshal 1, and monk 1 (with Ascetic Mage) go with sorcerer.

Okay, thanks. For this particular concept, sorcerer doesn’t appeal to me as much as someone who sits down and studies arcane magic.

Is there a way to combine wizard with a martial class like fighter or ranger, with most of the levels being from the martial class? I’m not going for a really optimized build, but rather a primarily martial build that supplements close-in fighting with spells.


Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
If you are using battle dancer, which grants Charisma to AC at level 1….

Battle dancer would be great, but doesn’t seem to work well with armor, which is one of my chief interests here.


Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
An easy route into Spelldancer, which comes online later, is something like battle dancer 1/sorcerer 6/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 9, battle dancer taking care of Perform and Tumble.

I would love this as a separate character concept, but spelldancer doesn’t quite fit what I’m going for here. It’s a neat concept, but apart from possibly free metamagic and a couple extra effects, it doesn’t seem to really do all that much. But perhaps I’m overlooking something.


Originally Posted by Eldariel
Enough Spellsword can be fit into a Sublime Chord build to get Channel Spell.

The spellsword’s channeling works very differently from the magus’ channeling, and I’d love to see some sort of comparison between the two. The spellsword can hold the spell in his weapon for up to eight hours, and I’m not sure if that’s more handy or aggravating. I’m also not sure if the magus gets more functionality earlier than the spellsword, although at first glance it seems like it.


Originally Posted by Aimeryan
As no one has yet mentioned it, Ardent can fit the bill.

I appreciate the suggestion, but won’t be using psionics for this build.

[DEMON]

Okay, thanks. For this particular concept, sorcerer doesn’t appeal to me as much as someone who sits down and studies arcane magic.

Is there a way to combine wizard with a martial class like fighter or ranger, with most of the levels being from the martial class? I’m not going for a really optimized build, but rather a primarily martial build that supplements close-in fighting with spells.

Dun dun dunn!

Shooting Star Ranger X / Wizard 1+ (up to 20-X) with Sword of the Arcane Order feat. Can be followed with a PrC(s) such as Abjurant Champion and/or Unseen Seer. Works with any race that has Wizard, Ranger or Any as their favored class as well as with any table that doesn't use the pure evil directly from the depths of the Abyss XP penalties and should be perfectly reasonable fluff-wise with most DMs.

The Shooting Star Ranger sub level 4 and Sword of the Arcane Order feat (both CoV) interact in such a way, that taking even a single level of Wizard greatly boosts your caster levels.

Even a single level of Wizard for a Ranger 19 / Wizard 1 build would give you:

- +2 Will save
- 3 cantrips and 1 1st levels spells (or more, given high Int score (or Str/Dex score if you're an Illumian), being a specialist, a focused specialist or an elven generalist)
- a spellbook for SotAO uses
- a Ranger caster level boost equal to your Wizard caster level
- a Wizard caster level equal to your standard Wizard caster level + Ranger class level (read up and do the math)
- a bonus feat (scribe scroll or any fighter bonus feat you qualify for (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard))
- a Familiar or an ACF (since your Wizard caster level continues to improve, you can easily qualify for Improved/Celestial/Dragon familiar and it will benefit from your Ranger skills/BAB/HD)

If you add PrCs such as the aforementioned Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer, applying the spellcasting boost to Wizard, the caster level calculations change somehow. But in the end, it will actually make you stronger, since you'll have more Wizard caster levels (that also apply to your Ranger caster level) and access to more powerful spells.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DEMON
Dun dun dunn!

Shooting Star Ranger X / Wizard 1+ (up to 20-X) with Sword of the Arcane Order feat.

I’m in love. :smalltongue:

In fact I knew this existed, and it’s been a teasing presence in the back of my mind, but I couldn’t remember exactly what it was. Now I do, and I love it.


Originally Posted by DEMON
Can be followed with a PrC(s) such as Abjurant Champion….

I think Abjurant Champion doesn’t work with armor, correct? I’d be open to other PrCs that do, if any come to mind.

Also, the one thing the Shooting Star/SotAO combo doesn’t do is channel spells, which is nice but not essential. How well would Spellsword mix with this?

And is Arcane Hierophant worth thinking about for later on?

[Genzu44]

If Sorc is out, Fighter1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom if you can get setting specific PRCs) 7 is a simple way to end up with 18th level Wizard casting and a BAB of +17.

There are basically two ways to build a gish. A role switcher where you prepare spells as if you were only a wizard and fall back on your martial build when you come across a situation that doesn't need a spell to solve, or a self-buffer where you use spells like Haste, Wraithstrike, and the Bite of the Were___ line combined with the Power Attack and Arcane Strike feats to make yourself a combat monster. Both roles have their ups and downs.

A suit of +1 Twilight Mithral Thistledown Full Plate combined with the Spellsword's ASF reduction feature gets rid of ASF completly. If you can't take a level in Spellsword, +1 Twilight Blended Quartz Thistledown Full Plate will yield the same result.

[Kurald Galain]

There are basically two ways to build a gish. A role switcher where you prepare spells as if you were only a wizard and fall back on your martial build when you come across a situation that doesn't need a spell to solve, or a self-buffer where you use spells like Haste, Wraithstrike, and the Bite of the Were___ line combined with the Power Attack and Arcane Strike feats to make yourself a combat monster. Both roles have their ups and downs.

Three ways. The third is based on the ability to cast and fight at the same time.

This is best done with a Magus, warpriest, or bloodrager; although duskblade can do it to some extent. A sorcerer or wizard can do this by focusing on swift-action spells.

[Hunter Noventa]

A little surprised no one has mentioned the Arcane Duelist archetype for the Pathfinder Bard yet. It gets you increasing weapon and armor proficiency and lets(makes) you cast with your weapon in your hand. There are also some nice PF feats for bards to let them do some fun stuff with Bardic Music. And Arcane Duelist lets you use Bardic Music to put enchantments on yours or allies weapons temporarily.

It's not a fantastic class like say, Magus or what have you, but it's perfectly viable.

[Deadline]

I think Abjurant Champion doesn’t work with armor, correct? I’d be open to other PrCs that do, if any come to mind.

It works fine with armor. It happens to give a big boost to the defensive bonus granted by certain abjuration spells (like Shield), which should in fact mix nicely with armor. Using the Mage Armor spell while wearing actual armor isn't all that useful, but Mage Armor isn't and abjuration spell, so it doesn't get the Abjurant Champion bonus (though many GMs houserule to allow it).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Genzu44
…or a self-buffer where you use spells like Haste, Wraithstrike, and the Bite of the Were___ line combined with the Power Attack and Arcane Strike feats to make yourself a combat monster.

This is more the direction I’m thinking, although still mulling whether it’s worth trying to shoehorn several levels of Spellsword into my Shooting Star ranger.

Also, I keep wondering about a direct comparison between a magus and the Shooting Star ranger, especially with SotAO. Nobody channels like the magus, but the magus has a very limited selection of spells compared to a wizard, and I like the idea of a ranger with a spellbook stuffed with useful oddities. Also, free Scribe Scroll is handy.


Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa
A little surprised no one has mentioned the Arcane Duelist archetype for the Pathfinder Bard yet.

This is intriguing, thanks. At this point I’m veering away from bardic options and thinking more of the ranger/wizard route, but your suggestions are definitely worth considering for another character.


Originally Posted by Deadline
[Abjurant Champion] works fine with armor. It happens to give a big boost to the defensive bonus granted by certain abjuration spells (like Shield), which should in fact mix nicely with armor.

Hmm. I was assuming it didn’t, based on this line from the PrC:

“Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on shield and similar spells instead of actual armor.”

I’m not that familiar with the PrC, and I’m not trying to argue they can’t use armor—only that the wording here led me to believe they couldn’t.

[A_S]

I’m not that familiar with the PrC, and I’m not trying to argue they can’t use armor—only that the wording here led me to believe they couldn’t.
Reasonable - many people, including the author of the PrC, appear to have forgotten that Mage Amor isn't actually an Abjuration spell (note that the sample character for the class is treated as if Mage Armor gets the Abjurant Armor bonus).

[DEMON]

It should be said, though, that AbChamp does absolutely nothing for your ability to actually cast in armor, so you need to sort that part yourself (not use armor, use twilight mithral armor, gain the ability to ignore ASF from elsewhere, etc...).


How well would Spellsword mix with this?

And is Arcane Hierophant worth thinking about for later on?

Not too well, as you lack pre-reqs for either class. As a Ranger/Wizard, you lack the armor proficiencies for Spellsword and the Trackless Step for Arcane Hierophant. Although the designer of that class actually confirmed he meant it to be Woodland Stride, instead of Trackless Step. Anyways, even if your DM would go that way and you did qualify, you couldn't benefit from most of its class features, as you'd both lack an animal companion to merge with your familiar and Druid levels to progress Wild Shape (this should also be fixed by a reasonable DM, at least with a Wildshape variant Ranger).

[Deadline]

Hmm. I was assuming it didn’t, based on this line from the PrC:

“Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on shield and similar spells instead of actual armor.”

I’m not that familiar with the PrC, and I’m not trying to argue they can’t use armor—only that the wording here led me to believe they couldn’t.

Understandable, but you may be overthinking that line. Armor and Shield bonuses don't stack. If you had long lasting spells that granted Armor and Shield bonuses that were even further increased by your Abjurant Champion class level, would you rely on a less protective physical armor and shield? :smallbiggrin:

There is an armor spell in the Book of Exalted deeds that is an Abjuration spell. Typically most Abjurant Champion builds use that spell and shield, and don't bother spending money on actual armor. Nothing about the class prevents you from wearing armor though.

[Vincent Dragon]

Runesmith 1 (must be a Dwarf) gives the equivalent of permanent Still Spell = no more somatic components = no more Arcane Spell Failure = you can wield a 2-hand weapon and cast a spell (no need for a free hand)

If you want BAB +16/Caster Level 17 let's go like this:

Fighter 1
Wizard 6
Spellsword 5
Runesmith 2
Abjurant Champion 5
Dragonslayer 1

You can exchange Spellsword levels for Eldritch Knight if you want to lose only one caster level instead of two, but then you lose Channel Spell.

If you are even more into optimization and don't care about using Persisted Divine Power (from the feat Arcane Disciple: War) to raise your BAB then do that:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 9/Dragonslayer 1/Runesmith 1/More 4 Levels that can be Spellsword (if you are willing to lose two caster level for Channel Spell) or anything that improves full casting (such as 10th level of Incantatrix and more levels of Runesmith). If you go this way you need high Spellcraft to persist spells with Incantatrix.