Tweaking D&D Balance for Battle Royale

[Armored Walrus]

So I'm trying to gain some traction on putting together a light, low-prep, low-commitment Battle Royale game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550208-D-amp-D-5e-St-Valentine-s-Day-Massacre) over on Roll20. As I'm sure we're all aware, D&D is not balanced around PvP, but is rather a team vs world game. That being said, I anticipate needing to do some tweaks here and there, and would like to get feedback from this community on what my most likely pitfalls will be.

Sleep
Already ran into this one in the first session. Sleep, as written, is a pretty much guaranteed way to take down one low-level opponent, and, as written, the only way the will awake is if they take damage, or if an ally spends an action to wake them. So sleeping someone and then missing them with a melee attack wouldn't, RAW, wake them. Giving an opponent potentially 10 shots at a guaranteed crit before the sleeper would awake on their own.

I've taken two steps. First, Sleep is outlawed in 1v1 matches. If you have Sleep on your spell list, and you enter a 1v1 match, you must replace it with another qualifying spell.

Second, I've ruled that a melee attack that misses a sleeping opponent will wake them. Oh, I've also changed the starting character level to 3 rather than 1, which will help survive that auto-crit just in case you do get taken down by a sleep spell in a multi-opponent match.

I've had a few random thoughts about other potential pitfalls:

Why make a bard? Before level ... six? ... the bard has no use for inspirations if they don't have a team. Maybe allow them to inspire themselves but for, say, 1d4 instead of 1d6?



I'll throw in others as they occur to me.

[Crgaston]

Lore bards have Cutting Words.

[Armored Walrus]

Oh yeah, at 3rd level... What about Valor, Swords, Whispers, etc.? Do they get something they can use on themselves at 3rd level as well? I'll have to look.

What about other spells? There's probably another pitfall in there somewhere...

[Jerrykhor]

One ability unusable on self does not make Bards weak, they are still full casters.

I think low level PVP is horribly unbalanced, due to PC's low hp. Whoever goes first will usually win. Plus, the martials have little options other than weapon attacks. Also like you said, Sleep is too effective at low levels.

[Armored Walrus]

I think low level PVP is horribly unbalanced, due to PC's low hp. Whoever goes first will usually win. Plus, the martials have little options other than weapon attacks. Also like you said, Sleep is too effective at low levels.

Well, Sleep is hopefully fixed. Funny you should say that whomever goes first will win. It actually turned out (in our 1st level fights) it was whomever could actually roll high enough to *hit* that ended up winning. Everyone was playing melee characters with shields, and there was a lot of whiffing going on.

As far as having no options other than weapon attacks - the participants have access to purchase gear, so caltrops, hunting traps, flasks of oil can all be employed, but unfortunately I didn't see anyone get creative with that in the first session.

I plan to use a variety of maps so a character built around kiting at range, for example, can't just negate every other player on the field in every battle.

As far as low level, I'm planning to try to keep the level progression at about 1 level per session. So if I can get a handful of folks who show up every week, I'll be back here asking how to tweak the balance at tier III soon. ;)

[jojo]

I would suggest that Sleep is not entirely unbalanced. For instance, the spell doesn't work at all on either Elves or Half-Elves.

If you're going to be doing a lot of PvP it probably would be beneficial to give all classes a self-healing option. Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin and Sorcerer/Warlock can already do this at L1 with spells depending on the supplements in play so they're good. Other classes however would benefit from having Second Wind equal to their classes' HD, give them one at 3, 5, 9, 15 and you'll ensure that bad rolls can't kill a match outright. I would think that Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues and Wizards would be the primary candidates for an ability like this.
Were I to introduce such an ability however I would also probably increase the Fighter's Second Wind to +2x Fighter Level HP of healing or I would have the Fighter version Max out rolls.

Another way you can re-assert balance, particularly at low-levels for PvP purposes is to require rolls to confirm critical hits as in previous additions. That will reduce the number dramatically and therefore extend combat.

[Armored Walrus]

Good thoughts.

Giving martials a self-heal, though, essentially equates to taking away one spell slot from the casters, don't you think? I'll ponder it and see if there's a need for it.

At higher levels, I expect I'll have to have fights in "matches" with a short rest between them, but no long rest until end of session, to keep full casters from just blowing all spell slots on every battle, but at 3rd I don't think it's going to be a big problem yet.

What about archetypes that are built around out of combat, or support? Will I just not see those in these matches, or do I need to do something to make them usable? Or stuff like the Assassin 3rd level feature. He can't sneak up on the combat, so no one can be surprised by him. Maybe I slightly weaken the effect but make it automatically usable on the first attack of the match?

[Ganymede]

Just spit balling here, but you should consider playing Infinity or perhaps a console game if your interest is in PVP. D&D is about as well suited for PVP as it is suited for solitaire play.

That's really the best advice I can give you.

[Armored Walrus]

That's really the best advice I can give you.

If that's your best, I thank you for it.

I'll stick with my little experiment though. I don't expect the e-sports endorsements to roll in, but we'll have some fun.

[MrWesson22]

I would think a battlemaster fighter with archery style and a longbow (proficiency in stealth and perception) would be pretty hard to beat. Action surge, second wind, precision attack to turn misses into hits, range, and d10 hp.

[Armored Walrus]

I did a dry run two days before session 1 with some of the players from my live D&D game, and a battlemaster fighter with a bow handed my ass to me on my hexblade, so I tend to agree with you.

But then, this was in a wide open arena that measured 150 feet across, so it did favor him. He could shoot me from out of range of my eldritch blast. I finally ended up casting Invisibility to close with him, but then I was out of slots, and he destroyed me up close. This was after I killed the other two players, though, so who knows how it would have gone if we had paid any attention to him earlier in the fight.

Part of the point of these sessions is to find that out via practice, rather than conjecture. I'll leave battlemaster alone for now ;)

[Crgaston]

A few thoughts....

If they’re starting at 3rd level, how much money for gear do they get?

Are familiars useable? Animal Companions?

What is the light level?

Why change the rules for waking up from the Sleep spell if the Sleep spell isn’t allowed? :)

[Talamare]

Implement 'Near Misses' and 'Soft Hits'

Near Hits and Near Misses are rolls within 3 of the Target Number
E.g. 15 AC? Roll a 17, Near Hit

Near Misses deal damage equal to your Dice Roll /2
Soft Hits deal damage equal to your Dice+Mod /2


Implement Critical Confirms

If you roll a 20 to hit, that is a guaranteed hit.
You must then make a second roll; if you hit with your second roll then it is a Confirmed Critical for additional Damage


Implement Low Accuracy Ranged

Any ability done at Ranged gives the opponent +2 to Defense
Literally, if it is outside of 15ft, the opponent has +2 Defense
Applies to both Saves and AC

[Cespenar]

I think nothing other than Sleep has to be fixed, really.

[Armored Walrus]

I think nothing other than Sleep has to be fixed, really.

This is my default assumption. I only plan to implement changes as issues turn up. But would like to have thought them through ahead of time.


A few thoughts....

If they’re starting at 3rd level, how much money for gear do they get?

Are familiars useable? Animal Companions?

What is the light level?

Why change the rules for waking up from the Sleep spell if the Sleep spell isn’t allowed? :)

Starting gear, currently. There are gold rewards within the sessions.

Yep, familiars and Animal Companions are in.

Light level varies by map. One nice thing about Roll20 is dynamic lighting. So each player sees what their character sees. Makes it easy to adjudicate line of sight and light level. So a human on a dark map has to carry around a torch that lets everyone else see them.

Sleep spell I outlawed for 1v1. But my plan is for 1v1 to be a rarity. I'm letting it stay for multi-opponent fights.


Implement 'Near Misses' and 'Soft Hits'

Implement Critical Confirms

Implement Low Accuracy Ranged



Interesting thoughts. You're the second to suggest critical confirms. This must be due to the lower level? I'll keep an eye on it.

For ranged, I'm hoping switching up maps will keep that in check. I don't mind if some maps favor some strategies, as long as I can maintain a variety of interesting, tactically different maps.

[Innocent_bystan]

An average level 3 character has (d8 HP and 14 Con, fixed values) 24hp. That isn't a whole lot of hp.

Let's see if we can make a character that deals this amount of damage in a single round:

Paladin 3, Dual wielding shortswords with Smites: 2x (1d6 + 2d8) +3 = average of 27 damage per round, if both attacks hit.
This character could very well be a Variant Human and pick up the Lucky feat for extra hit chance.

Sorcerer 3, 1x Scorching Ray + 1x Firebolt: 3x 2d6 + 1x1d10 = average of 26 damage per round, if all attacks hit.
A character like this could be a Shadow Sorcerer and hide in his Darkness spell. This makes it a 2-round kill, but still.
Important note: only Warlocks with a specific Invocation can see through this Darkness, making it very difficult to counter this.

Some other scary low-level tactics:
Moon Druid3, Wildshape into a Bear and outlive everyone because of the extra Hp. For added benefit: be a Moon Druid 2/Barbarian 1. Rage bonus, Resistance and extra AC based on Con? Why, yes please.

Halfling Warlock of the Chain 3, Cast Reduce to size Tiny, have imp familiar pick you up and turn invisible. You are now an invisible, flying Eldrich Blast Artillery platform. Possibly with Magic Resistance, if using the Monster Manual familiar variant.

Any character with the Mobile Feat is going to be impossible to pin down in melee. When combined with Bladesinger, hit-and-run Booming Blade will be very effective (50ft movement speed).

Ranged characters have a definite edge over melee. I imagine a Variant Human Battle Master with the Sharpshooter feat and the Archery Fighting Style to be nigh-unbeatable without cheese tactics (see above). Action Surge to do 2x (1d8 + 13) damage = average 34 damage, with Precision Attack to aid in turning hits into misses is deadly.

[Armored Walrus]

An average level 3 character has (d8 HP and 14 Con, fixed values) 24hp. That isn't a whole lot of hp.

Let's see if we can make a character that deals this amount of damage in a single round:

Paladin 3, Dual wielding shortswords with Smites: 2x (1d6 + 2d8) +3 = average of 27 damage per round, if both attacks hit.
This character could very well be a Variant Human and pick up the Lucky feat for extra hit chance.

Sorcerer 3, 1x Scorching Ray + 1x Firebolt: 3x 2d6 + 1x1d10 = average of 26 damage per round, if all attacks hit.
A character like this could be a Shadow Sorcerer and hide in his Darkness spell. This makes it a 2-round kill, but still.
Important note: only Warlocks with a specific Invocation can see through this Darkness, making it very difficult to counter this.

Some other scary low-level tactics:
Moon Druid3, Wildshape into a Bear and outlive everyone because of the extra Hp. For added benefit: be a Moon Druid 2/Barbarian 1. Rage bonus, Resistance and extra AC based on Con? Why, yes please.

Halfling Warlock of the Chain 3, Cast Reduce to size Tiny, have imp familiar pick you up and turn invisible. You are now an invisible, flying Eldrich Blast Artillery platform. Possibly with Magic Resistance, if using the Monster Manual familiar variant.

Any character with the Mobile Feat is going to be impossible to pin down in melee. When combined with Bladesinger, hit-and-run Booming Blade will be very effective (50ft movement speed).

Ranged characters have a definite edge over melee. I imagine a Variant Human Battle Master with the Sharpshooter feat and the Archery Fighting Style to be nigh-unbeatable without cheese tactics (see above). Action Surge to do 2x (1d8 + 13) damage = average 34 damage, with Precision Attack to aid in turning hits into misses is deadly.

Part of the fun is in finding out, live, which of those "cheese" characters can actually pull off what they are theorized to be able to do. You list 6 "unbeatable" characters. But what happens if they all face each other? What happens if that vHuman BM w Sharpshooter and Archery is in a maze, in the dark? What happens if that druid turns into a bear and the other 5 competitors go "Oh s**t, kill that first!" Or what happens if they don't? That halfling druid gets shut down if he's in a map with a ceiling, and anyone has faerie fire. This, to me, is what will make these sessions interesting. If everyone brings their "broken" ideas and then competes to show how their build actually performs.

My challenge will be to manage the maps to make sure no one build can dominate them all. If one emerges, that truly is broken, I'll start houseruling.

Speaking of which, what are some interesting terrain, or effects, I can add to maps to shake things up. I plan to start reviewing the lair actions of various legendary creatures for inspiration, but maybe you folks have some creative ideas. (keep in mind I don't want to outright murder these level 3 combatants with the effects)

[Innocent_bystan]

Part of the fun is in finding out, live, which of those "cheese" characters can actually pull off what they are theorized to be able to do. You list 6 "unbeatable" characters. But what happens if they all face each other? What happens if that vHuman BM w Sharpshooter and Archery is in a maze, in the dark? What happens if that druid turns into a bear and the other 5 competitors go "Oh s**t, kill that first!" Or what happens if they don't? That halfling druid gets shut down if he's in a map with a ceiling, and anyone has faerie fire. This, to me, is what will make these sessions interesting. If everyone brings their "broken" ideas and then competes to show how their build actually performs.

My challenge will be to manage the maps to make sure no one build can dominate them all. If one emerges, that truly is broken, I'll start houseruling.

Speaking of which, what are some interesting terrain, or effects, I can add to maps to shake things up. I plan to start reviewing the lair actions of various legendary creatures for inspiration, but maybe you folks have some creative ideas. (keep in mind I don't want to outright murder these level 3 combatants with the effects)

My post was written under the impression that it was a 1v1 PvP in a white room environment, but most of the builds should still work.

My money would be on the Halfling, even in the hypothetical ceiling scenario.
Faerie Fire isn't a sure-fire counter. The halfling start flying invisibly. Where do you aim your Faerie Fire? The halfling's movement rate is higher than the radius of the spell, so it's down to guesswork. And then he still has to fail the Dex-save, with Advantage and a natural +2 to Dex.
The Halfling can also pull off the Darkness-trick. And there isn't a real counter to that. There is no higher-level light spell to cast. You can try to break concentration, but targeting is sketchy because there is no line of sight and it would need to be an AoE-spell to have a chance to succeed. And at lvl 3, those are pretty hard to come by. And even then the Magic Resistance given by the familiar helps resist that. The halfling's Eldritch Blast also has a functional range of 120ft. You would need a character specifically to counter this build and if your team doesn't have one: tough luck.

Also, if I entered the competition and every single arena featured a 10ft ceiling, I would feel cheated. It seems easier to just ban flying altogether, this saves everyone a lot of headaches. AL does it, and for good reason.

Question: does each team know what classes they are facing? Because that will affect first-turn actions. Nuke the mage! (and things like that) Alternatively, you could have a spellcaster cast Disguise Self to look like a (melee-only) Barbarian.

Another question: does each team know the starting positions of the other characters?

As for environmental effects: whatever you choose, I'd designate a number of safe spots scattered across the map. Not enough, of course, for everyone.
You could, for instance, have a map filled with ankle-deep salt water and every 1d4 turns an electric shock affects everyone standing in the water. The safe zones are raised platforms that provide no cover whatsoever. But those platforms aren't very well built and everyone standing on them has to make an acrobatics check or risk toppling the structure and falling in the water.
You could provide some geysers that create steam at certain intervals. This provides cover, but deals a small amount of Fire-damage every turn. And so on.
I'd also provide 'loot spots' with some very handy gear in the middle of the map. Like a Ring of Fire Resistance in a lava-filled cave or a +1 weapon stuck in a rock. This provides some incentive to go to the center of the map attention.

[Armored Walrus]

My post was written under the impression that it was a 1v1 PvP in a white room environment, but most of the builds should still work.

That's the antithesis of what I'm trying to do with this. ;)


My money would be on the Halfling, even in the hypothetical ceiling scenario.

Also, if I entered the competition and every single arena featured a 10ft ceiling, I would feel cheated. It seems easier to just ban flying altogether, this saves everyone a lot of headaches. AL does it, and for good reason.

That may be something I'll need to do. I certainly don't plan on building every map to bone certain setups, though. Just enough to mix it up to remove potential "I win buttons."


Question: does each team know what classes they are facing? Because that will affect first-turn actions. Nuke the mage! (and things like that) Alternatively, you could have a spellcaster cast Disguise Self to look like a (melee-only) Barbarian.

Another question: does each team know the starting positions of the other characters?

Currently they can see each other's Avatar, but not their sheet. So they would only know based on description. I hope to have some players as creative as you to get these interesting aspects into the matches. As far as starting positions; that depends on the maps. On some they can see everyone straight away, on others, they have to go find them.

I'm also toying with the idea of having all rolls whispered to DM (hidden) so that they can't get clues based on what is being rolled. This week I'm going to do it that way and see how it goes - it might be overkill.


As for environmental effects: whatever you choose, I'd designate a number of safe spots scattered across the map. Not enough, of course, for everyone.
You could, for instance, have a map filled with ankle-deep salt water and every 1d4 turns an electric shock affects everyone standing in the water. The safe zones are raised platforms that provide no cover whatsoever. But those platforms aren't very well built and everyone standing on them has to make an acrobatics check or risk toppling the structure and falling in the water.
You could provide some geysers that create steam at certain intervals. This provides cover, but deals a small amount of Fire-damage every turn. And so on.
I'd also provide 'loot spots' with some very handy gear in the middle of the map. Like a Ring of Fire Resistance in a lava-filled cave or a +1 weapon stuck in a rock. This provides some incentive to go to the center of the map attention.

These are amazing ideas, and I'm going to look at my maps between now and tomorrow night to implement something like this on at least one map. The loot drops are already an idea, as are traps, and just pure gold drops, to help characters outfit themselves between fights.

How would you rule if a player decides to try to use Intimidate or Persuasion on another player? It can't be an unlimited, at-will Charm effect, but it should have some impact, no? Maybe a watered-down fear or charm condition that can only be imposed once per match, or once per match, per opponent? Like a successful Intimidate might impose -1 to attack rolls for 2 rounds instead of disadvantage, for example?

Thanks for the awesome input!

[JohanOfKitten]

I've done an arena game for lvl7 characters. I casted blink twice during the battle and it greatly help me to crush the game :
1 minute, no concentration.

In a PvE situation, the spell is nice to protect your character (a caster, weaker than the martials). It protects you well, but the blows are redirected on other members of the team. It's nice, but not OP.


In a PvP, it's a huge advantage. You attack, you blink, the others can't attack you. You blink back at the start of your turn, attack, re-blink....
The other players will let you on your own and go fight someone they can hit. But you still hit them (easy with ranged attacks).
Sure, you have only 55% chances of blink at the end of your turn, but that's enough to garantee you several rounds of safety when everyone else is bleeding out). And when you have to choose to run toward a target to attack, you will choose the one you can attack, not the one that might be totally protected half the time.
Sure, they can do readied actions, but that is costly for them : readied spells can be disrupted by other players and cut your concentration on another spell. The fighter won't be able to play all his attacks... If they can do something else than targeting you, they will do so. Oh, and when you blink back, you can be teleport at 10 feet, so you may sometimes manage to avoid the readied attack or spell.



So if the battle royale is on short duration with everyone in a limited space (arena or else), this spell is really unbalanced.

If that's more battle royale like the movie with small encounters spreaded on a huge map and several days, I guess that's fine.

[Crgaston]

Wednesdays are my regular game night, so I’m out, but here ate some I’d love to try...

A VHuman Gloomstalker with Magic Initiate for Find Familiar, Control Flames and Mold Earth would probably be more than a match for the SSBM in darkness.

A VHuman with Spell Sniper... either Shadow Sorcerer or Warlock with Devils Sight/Darkness will have a significant advantage over just about everything else. For a maximum of 20 minutes.

An Eladrin Bladesinger with Magic Missile and Shield would probably do ok, too.

I think it’ll probably come down to the terrain, player choices and the dice in any given encounter.

Edit: Wow, lots of replies between when I started and finished writing. Great stuff, everyone!

[Armored Walrus]

Blink is OP

Thanks for the heads up. It's a third level spell. So I don't have to worry about it this week yet, but good to know it's in the hopper.

Let me ask you this. If you knew there was going to be more than one "match" and that you'd only get a short rest in between, would you have cast Blink? Maybe it helps you dominate one match, but would it have left you a sitting duck in the second match? (I know you were7th level, so you had 2 3rd level slots, but I still think knowing you'd have to manage resources would've impacted your use of the spell)

[Armored Walrus]

... Mold Earth ...

Creative players. I like this.

Edit: On a side note, I find it interesting that, both here and on Roll20, as soon as I changed my thread titles and game description to "Battle Royale" instead of "PvP" I suddenly got a lot more activity. Apparently "PvP" sounds too predatory? (I work in marketing, so it's interesting to see how product positioning works in thread topics as well as it does in business.)

[Innocent_bystan]

How would you rule if a player decides to try to use Intimidate or Persuasion on another player? It can't be an unlimited, at-will Charm effect, but it should have some impact, no? Maybe a watered-down fear or charm condition that can only be imposed once per match, or once per match, per opponent? Like a successful Intimidate might impose -1 to attack rolls for 2 rounds instead of disadvantage, for example?
I wouldn't give that much attention to the social skills. And I certainly wouldn't give them a lot of combat utility. Because that's what spells are for.

Consider this:
Suppose you allow a player to use Intimidate to impose Disadvantage on 1 attack roll. What's the difference with the cantrip Vicious Mockery?
If you allow a Persuasion attempt to become 'untargetable' for 1 round, what's the difference with the Sanctuary spell?

It would be nice to integrate the social skills in some way, but let's face it, nobody in going to have a civil conversation in the middle of the match.
Plus taking away player agency is never a good thing in my book.

I do have an alternative of sorts: why don't you allow persuasion/intimidation to buff other players? As in: "I try to convince player B to do action X." <Spends action, succeeds on Persuasion roll> player B gets Inspiration if he executes the stated action. It still leaves a choice to player B, but rewards him for playing along.




Thanks for the awesome input!

You're welcome!

[Armored Walrus]

Consider this:
Suppose you allow a player to use Intimidate to impose Disadvantage on 1 attack roll. What's the difference with the cantrip Vicious Mockery?
If you allow a Persuasion attempt to become 'untargetable' for 1 round, what's the difference with the Sanctuary spell?

Not arguing against your point, but here's the difference. I suggested imposing -1, not disadvantage, which is indisputably weaker than disadvantage. Also, it could only be used once, rather than repeated. Same thing with Persuasion vs. Sanctuary. Sanctuary works on every person that tries to attack, not just one person, lasts for more than one round (assuming you can hold on to your concentration) and can be re-cast if you have the spell slots. Persuasion would work once, for one round, on one opponent.


It would be nice to integrate the social skills in some way, but let's face it, nobody in going to have a civil conversation in the middle of the match.
Plus taking away player agency is never a good thing in my book.

I'm not envisioning a conversation, more like, "The tiefling hisses at you. She's pretty damn scary, and something about her tells you she's not someone to mess with. It throws you off your game slightly - your attacks against her will be at minus 1 this round." I don't see this as any less agency-robbing than, say, Hold Person, or Charm Person, or Sleep, or Darkness, etc. In fact, far less so, IMO. If anything, it's too weak to burn an action on.


I do have an alternative of sorts: why don't you allow persuasion/intimidation to buff other players? As in: "I try to convince player B to do action X." <Spends action, succeeds on Persuasion roll> player B gets Inspiration if he executes the stated action. It still leaves a choice to player B, but rewards him for playing along.

I do like this, and it's pretty elegant. How would you apply it to Intimidation or Deception?

[white lancer]

I could imagine a lot of individual spells being problematic. For instance, Suggestion is a 2nd-level spell, so casters would have access to it at 3rd level. Most of the obvious uses for the spell in 1v1 can probably be adjudicated out/outlawed by the "reasonable" clause (e.g. no saying, "you're not interested in this fight, so you'd rather surrender" or anything similar). In a battle royale, it could pretty easily be used to say something like, "everyone else is a bigger threat than I, so you want to target them first." Maybe that's okay, since it only affects one player and the caster would have to maintain Concentration, but it's an open-ended spell and I can't imagine it's the only potentially dangerous one out there.

[Armored Walrus]

I suspect spells like that are going to go one of two ways. Either the players will avoid them because they aren't sure how I'll rule them. Or they'll take them expecting them to be an automatic win, and then get angry if it doesn't work the way they thought.

Good heads up on a potential speed bump here, though. That second use you mentioned, though, I wouldn't have any problem with. Anyone else can put an arrow through the caster's chest, and the problem solves itself.

[Innocent_bystan]

Not arguing against your point, but here's the difference. I suggested imposing -1, not disadvantage, which is indisputably weaker than disadvantage. Also, it could only be used once, rather than repeated. Same thing with Persuasion vs. Sanctuary. Sanctuary works on every person that tries to attack, not just one person, lasts for more than one round (assuming you can hold on to your concentration) and can be re-cast if you have the spell slots. Persuasion would work once, for one round, on one opponent.



I'm not envisioning a conversation, more like, "The tiefling hisses at you. She's pretty damn scary, and something about her tells you she's not someone to mess with. It throws you off your game slightly - your attacks against her will be at minus 1 this round." I don't see this as any less agency-robbing than, say, Hold Person, or Charm Person, or Sleep, or Darkness, etc. In fact, far less so, IMO. If anything, it's too weak to burn an action on.

We agree, a -1 penalty is too weak to ever matter and Disadvantage is too strong. The player agency remark was intended as a follow up to persuasion making someone untargetable. Which would be too strong, to my liking.



I do like this, and it's pretty elegant. How would you apply it to Intimidation or Deception?

Intimidation could work the same way, try to convince a player to act in a certain way (eg. find another target) and reward him if he does so.

Deception is a matter of description, but that would be kind of hard to pull off. That would mean that you, the DM, have to provide both the fake and correct information and judge the outcome.
I could see a use like this: Player A feints and describes that he is moving away from player B. He also states that if player B uses his Reaction to make an Attack of Opportunity, he gets to make an Attack with Advantage. If he doesn't, player A just wasted his action. Or something like that. A sort of variation on the Ready Action.

[Armored Walrus]

We agree, a -1 penalty is too weak to ever matter and Disadvantage is too strong. The player agency remark was intended as a follow up to persuasion making someone untargetable. Which would be too strong, to my liking.

Does making it a bonus action help? Or do I just scrap this approach?


Intimidation could work the same way, try to convince a player to act in a certain way (eg. find another target) and reward him if he does so.

This seems straightforward enough.


Deception is a matter of description, but that would be kind of hard to pull off.

Player A feints and describes that he is moving away from player B. He also states that if player B uses his Reaction to make an Attack of Opportunity, he gets to make an Attack with Advantage. If he doesn't, player A just wasted his action. Or something like that. A sort of variation on the Ready Action.

That's hard to follow even reading it...

I think this week I'll worry more about making sure Investigation, Perception, Animal Handling (maybe) and some other skills have uses, and leave the social ones alone until/unless I see them actually getting used. I can see the knowledge skills getting some use in letting the player get some info about the battle field, too. I suspect that so far my players are just not taking skills if they don't see them as "combat-related".