war Cleric

[Alpha115]

So I was browsing on reddit recently and stumbled onto a topic about war clerics. A user was saying how the war cleric was one of the weakest martial spellcasting characters. The user was comparing damages to the sword bard, paladin, and hexblade lock. the topic got me curious, how powerful is the war cleric?

[Aett_Thorn]

So I was browsing on reddit recently and stumbled onto a topic about war clerics. A user was saying how the war cleric was one of the weakest martial spellcasting characters. The user was comparing damages to the sword bard, paladin, and hexblade lock. the topic got me curious, how powerful is the war cleric?

You get all of the benefits of a normal cleric (Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, etc.), can give yourself a second attack up to 5 times per day, have access to heavy armor and martial weapons, and can give yourself a huge bonus to your attack roll every once in a while, helping to potentially offset something like Sharpshooter or GWM. On top of that, at higher levels you get a bonus to your damage once per round when you hit, for as many rounds as you need to.

The Blades Bard gets 5/short rest max until VERY high level, and even once you get to that level it's only a d6 instead of the 2d8 or whatever the War Cleric will have.

The Paladin gets only half the spell slots the Cleric gets, and only spells up to level 5. Yes, they are better martial characters because they don't get the spellcasting benefits of a full spellcaster.

[DivisibleByZero]

The Paladin gets only half the spell slots the Cleric gets,

I see people say this all the time, and it simply isn't true.

Paladin:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 : 15 slots
Cleric:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 / 2 / 1 / 1 : 22 slots

They lack only a single 5th level slot, two 6th, two 7th, one 8th, one 9th.
15/22 is not half. 15/22 is more than 2/3rds.

[Aett_Thorn]

I see people say this all the time, and it simply isn't true.

Paladin:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 : 15 slots
Cleric:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 / 2 / 1 / 1 : 22 slots

They lack only a single 5th level slot, two 6th, two 7th, one 8th, one 9th.
15/22 is not half. 15/22 is more than 2/3rds.

Thank you for the clarification. I meant more that they aren't full spellcasters and don't get the higher-level spells. But you're right to correct that.

[DivisibleByZero]

Thank you for the clarification. I meant more that they aren't full spellcasters and don't get the higher-level spells. But you're right to correct that.

It's a point of contention for me, because I have seen (and been involved in) many upon many threads seeking to create a 2/3rds caster, when the fact is that Paladins and Rangers (known as "half casters") were designed to fill exactly that niche.
They get more than half of the spell levels, and more than 2/3rds of the slots. It's like *half, but rounded up.*
It's really more like 11/18ths all told. More than half, more than 5/9ths, but not quite 2/3rds.
They get multiclass slots on a 2:1 ratio for simplicity's sake, because of how the multiclass rules work in 5e.

[LVOD]

I’m not sure its really fair to nitpick “15/22 isn’t half” when the 7 slots they don’t get are of a much higher level. You’re equating spell slots of 1-5 level with level 6-9 slots.

[DivisibleByZero]

I’m not sure its really fair to nitpick “15/22 isn’t half” when the 7 slots they don’t get are of a much higher level. You’re equating spell slots of 1-5 level with level 6-9 slots.

That would be a fair stance/argument if the discussion were about overall spellcasting power, but that isn't what we're discussing. We were discussing slots.

[Aett_Thorn]

That would be a fair stance/argument if the discussion were about overall spellcasting power, but that isn't what we're discussing. We were discussing slots.

Yup, they're about half-casters in terms of POWER, but not in terms of slots. It was what I meant to focus on, but used bad language that I was rightly corrected on.

[Tanarii]

Calculating by number of slots is misleading. Do it by spell points.

At the end of each tier:

Tier 1:
Half caster: 6
Full caster: 17

Tier 2:
Half caster: 27
Full caster: 64

Tier 3:
Half caster: 44
Full caster: 94

Tier 4:
Half caster: 64
Full caster: 133

As you can see, half casters are not nearly 2/3 casters. They are slightly less than half casters.

[LVOD]

Right, but if you’re comparing apples, and one apple is literally 9x the size of other apples, then its clearly more significant. The slots themselves are inherently more valuable.

I just don’t think counting “number of slots” is meaningful in any way. I suppose the most accurate way would be converting everything to upscaled first level spells? Like... how many magic missles is a 9th level spell? 11? So its roughly twife as valuable as a 3rd level spell in that regard.

Edit: ninja’d

Also spell points makes way more sense than number of magic missles...

[Aett_Thorn]

Calculating by number of slots is misleading. Do it by spell points.

At the end of each tier:

Tier 1:
Half caster: 6
Full caster: 17

Tier 2:
Half caster: 27
Full caster: 64

Tier 3:
Half caster: 44
Full caster: 94

Tier 4:
Half caster: 64
Full caster: 133

As you can see, half casters are not nearly 2/3 casters. They are slightly less than half casters.

Right, but again, I accidentally started the comparison by slots. It's MY bad. And he was right to say that it wasn't the right comparison.

[Alpha115]

You get all of the benefits of a normal cleric (Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, etc.), can give yourself a second attack up to 5 times per day, have access to heavy armor and martial weapons, and can give yourself a huge bonus to your attack roll every once in a while, helping to potentially offset something like Sharpshooter or GWM. On top of that, at higher levels you get a bonus to your damage once per round when you hit, for as many rounds as you need to.

The Blades Bard gets 5/short rest max until VERY high level, and even once you get to that level it's only a d6 instead of the 2d8 or whatever the War Cleric will have.

The Paladin gets only half the spell slots the Cleric gets, and only spells up to level 5. Yes, they are better martial characters because they don't get the spellcasting benefits of a full spellcaster.

I personally agree with most of your statement. I made a small houserule in my game to allow war clerics to regain their war priest charges on a short rest once they reach level 8. To play devils advocate the person's argument was:

War Priest and Spiritual Weapon are exclusive you can only do one or the other, not both. At level 8 we can have 20 in Str or Wis and 16 in whichever doesn't have a 20. For this example lets assume 20 Str if using War Priest and 20 Wis if using Spiritual Weapon.

20 Str / 16 Wis

Warhammer - 1d8+5 = 9.5
War Priest - 1d8+5 = 9.5
Divine Favor - 2d4 = 5
Divine Strike - 1d8 = 4.5
TOTAL = 28.5

16 Str / 20 Wis

Warhammer - 1d8+3 = 7.5
Spiritual Weapon - 1d8+5 = 9.5
Divine Favor - 1d4 = 2.5
Divine Strike - 1d8 = 4.5
TOTAL = 24

We can compare this to a Sword Bard.

20 Dex / 16 Cha

Shortsword - 1d6+5 = 8.5
Extra Attack - 1d6+5 =8.5
Off Hand Shortsword - 1d6+5 = 8.5
Defensive Flourish - 1d8 = 4.5
TOTAL = 30

A Paladin with a Warhammer and Dueling Fighting Style. Assuming only one 2nd Level Divine Smite.

20 Str / 16 Cha

Warhammer - 1d8+7= 11.5
Extra Attack - 1d8+7 = 11.5
Divine Favor - 2d4 = 5
2nd Level Divine Smite - 3d8 = 13.5
TOTAL - 41.5

Gloom Stalker Ranger with a Rapier and Dueling Fighting Style.

20 Dex / 16 Wis

Rapier - 1d8+7 = 11.5
Extra Attack - 1d8+7 = 11.5
Dread Ambusher - 2d8+7 = 16
Hunter's Mark - 3d6 = 10.5
TOTAL = 49.5

Kensei Monk with a 2H Warhammer.

20 Dex / 16 Wis

Warhammer - 1d10+5 = 10.5
Extra Attack - 1d10+5 = 10.5
Deft Strike - 1d6 = 3.5
Unarmed Strike - 1d6+5 = 8.5
Flurry of Blows - 1d6+5 = 8.5
TOTAL = 41.5

Pact of the Blade Hexblade with a 2H Longsword.

20 Cha / 16 Dex

Longsword - 1d10+5 = 10.5
Thirsting Blade - 1d10+5 = 10.5
Hexblade's Curse - 3x2 = 6
Maddening Hex - 5
4th Level Eldritch Smite - 4d8 = 18
TOTAL = 50

If War Domain Clerics got Extra Attack they would deal 40.5 at 20 Str and 34 at 20 Wis. This would keep them in line with a Paladin and most other melee classes. The Hexblade actually is the larger damage threat but it also takes a little bit of set up to reach the full damage per round. The Sword Bard is behind by a bit but if you plan for level 10 and take the Dueling Fighting Style and Shadow Blade and Spiritual Weapon as Magical Secrets their damage will increase significantly.

Shadow Blade - 2d8+7 = 16
Extra Attack - 2d8+7 = 16
Spiritual Weapon - 1d8+3 = 7.5
Defensive Flourish - 1d10 = 5.5
TOTAL = 45

[DivisibleByZero]

Right, but if you’re comparing apples, and one apple is literally 9x the size of other apples, then its clearly more significant. The slots themselves are inherently more valuable.

I just don’t think counting “number of slots” is meaningful in any way. I suppose the most accurate way would be converting everything to upscaled first level spells? Like... how many magic missles is a 9th level spell? 11? So its roughly twife as valuable as a 3rd level spell in that regard.
Irrelevant to the comment I made. I was correcting the following, and the person who typed it concurs that different wording should have been used.

The Paladin gets only half the spell slots the Cleric gets,
We all know what A_T meant, but I saw clarification as being required.

[Easy_Lee]

War Clerics are fine, all things considered. Compare them to Bladesingers and you can see that the War Celeric has some nice boons. If you can afford it (and have the stats), two levels of Paladin can give your War Cleric superior smiting ability on top of everything else that comes with being a Cleric. Given heavy armor, it's easier to afford the dip on a War Cleric than, say, a Bladesinger Wizard.

[LVOD]

Irrelevant to the comment I made. I was correcting the following, and the person who typed it concurs that different wording should have been used.

We all know what A_T meant, but I saw clarification as being required.


I was more referring to your argument that 15 spell slots equates to a 2/3 caster. I think its pretty reasonable to say that a paladin is a half caster since they get much less than half as much utility out of their slots, regardless of how many they have.

But fair enough. My comment was probably unnecessary.

Edit: i didn’t see that comment so I was missing important context

[xroads]

It's a point of contention for me, because I have seen (and been involved in) many upon many threads seeking to create a 2/3rds caster, when the fact is that Paladins and Rangers (known as "half casters") were designed to fill exactly that niche.
They get more than half of the spell levels, and more than 2/3rds of the slots. It's like *half, but rounded up.*
It's really more like 11/18ths all told. More than half, more than 5/9ths, but not quite 2/3rds.
They get multiclass slots on a 2:1 ratio for simplicity's sake, because of how the multiclass rules work in 5e.

It occurred to me that "half caster" might be in reference to the number of spells choices available as opposed to the spell slots.

To test this, I did a real quick count of spells. Just using the PHB and no domain spells, the paladin has roughly 50 spells available and the cleric has roughly a 100.

So, from this perspective, paladins might be considered half casters. Other half classes may be similar.


Edit: The rests of the posts didn't display for some reason. Looks like I got ninja'd a while back go. Nevermind. :smallbiggrin:

[Anonymouswizard]

I see people say this all the time, and it simply isn't true.

Paladin:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 : 15 slots
Cleric:
4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 / 2 / 1 / 1 : 22 slots

They lack only a single 5th level slot, two 6th, two 7th, one 8th, one 9th.
15/22 is not half. 15/22 is more than 2/3rds.

Out of interest, I decided to look up what a 'basic rules paladin' would get by checking the spell slots of a Fighter 10/Cleric 10.

4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 2 : 15, exactly the same as a 20th level paladin.

For the record an Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get the spell slots of a 7th level full caster, rounded up from 6.66.

This means that in 5e '1/2 caster' and '1/3' caster refer to progression, not power (progression is off slightly because multiple times full caster levels will give more than one slot or because it flows slightly better). A half caster doesn't have half the magical power of a full caster, they have half the progression. However because low level magical power peaks early and high level slots are rare partial casters end up with a decent number of slots. They lack the ability to cast the powerful, potentially world altering high level spells, but make up for this (in theory) with more class features that should synergise with their spells. Paladins are a great example of half-casters that work, Rangers are a good example that doesn't.

Anyway, came into this thread because I might end up playing a war cleric depending on if a fellow player actually decides to go druid, so analysis of their combat abilities is interesting to me.

[Biggstick]

So I was browsing on reddit recently and stumbled onto a topic about war clerics. A user was saying how the war cleric was one of the weakest martial spellcasting characters. The user was comparing damages to the sword bard, paladin, and hexblade lock. the topic got me curious, how powerful is the war cleric?

So the question you're asking is, "how powerful is the War Cleric?" Well as a Cleric, it's one of the most powerful support classes in the game. It usually makes everything easier on the party to have a Cleric, as they can change out spells daily to fit what the party needs from them. For the classes you listed, only the Paladin has that same versatility available to it. I'll also continue on in saying that Hexblade is typically committed to 1 or 2 playstyles, based on spell/Invocation choices. While this doesn't make them less powerful, it does mean they're a bit more focused then you are on a certain way of doing things. Lastly is the Bard. I honestly haven't seen a Melee Bard in play before and can only assume they get wrecked in typical melee combat due to a lack of typical gish spells (like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step, Haste, etc) relevant saving throws (Wisdom and Constitution), typically only medium armor, and a D8 hit dice without damage reduction/resistance available.

All the classes are solid, but I'd look at War Clerics as being melee combat support. Thier Channel Divinity is best used on ensuring important hits from allies connect with the target, and I'm not just talking about weapon attacks, I'm talking about spell attacks. As you gain levels, you have spells like Hold Monster, which typically isn't available to a Cleric. More so then other Clerics, I feel a War Cleric is best suited towards really working out combat strategies with the entire team on how to go about improving the chances of success. On top of that, they still have the entire Cleric spell list to provide out of combat support.

While it might not powerful in terms of doing the most damage, I feel the combat utility, out-of-combat utility, and overall spell power of a War Cleric makes it more powerful then the three other classes you've listed.

[Tanarii]

So the question you're asking is, "how powerful is the War Cleric?" Well as a Cleric, it's one of the most powerful support classes in the game. It usually makes everything easier on the party to have a Cleric, as they can change out spells daily to fit what the party needs from them.
That's a good point. A war cleric is a base support class, with better than normal AC and physical offense for its base class (which is already decent in AC department).

A hexblade is mostly ranged magical offensive class with added physical defense and physical offense capabilities.

A paladin is high AC and physical offense class with added magic defense, support and close offense.

So it really depends where you want to start, and what you want to add to it.