Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm just putting this down on a webpage so I can either be surprised or have something to point towards later.

I think Star Wars Episode 9 is going to be:
"Star Wars-The Apology"

Regardless if you liked 8 it or not, I expect the vast majority of its actions and statements to be retracted by JJ Abrams and undone.

Snoke will turn out to be a Disembodied evil force spirit and have a duel off with Spirit Luke who will be superpowerful and sleek.
Reys Parents will be revealed as significant and that Kylo was lying to her.
The outlook on the force will be very optimistic
A New Rebel fleet will burst out of the ground like turnips.
The First Orders Fleet will be restored as to the same as before
Anti-Tracking mcguffins will be introduced to cancel out tracking mcguffins
Hyperspace Jump attacks will be shown as impossible and only done by experimental engines or something

[Peelee]

Hyperspace Jump attacks will be shown as impossible and only done by experimental engines or something

My money is on "they'll be ignored."

[Scowling Dragon]

My money is on "they'll be ignored."

Possible, but I do think JJ is the type to win brownie points for this sort of deal.

Disney did not loose money on TLJ. But again Shareholders don't think like that. It was expected to perform worse then TFA and it performed worse then that and the toy sales are slumping seriously.

They need a big rallying cry for everybody to say that TLJ was a fluke and a easy way to undo that is to just retract everything the did in TLJ. The critics will rave about it regardless. Maybe a DOUBLE subversion!!!!!! Thats like double the smart!

[Mechalich]

My money is on "they'll be ignored."

Agreed. In fact I expect all problematic technical matters to be ignored going forward. Technology in the galaxy far, far away will do whatever the plot demands of it from this point forward, never mind the lore. This was already in TFA and it is absolutely part of the JJ Abrams playbook. He did the same think with the Trek reboot.

Things I predict will be true for Episode IX:

- It will underperform financially to an even greater degree than TLJ did (and yes the verdict is in, TLJ came in around 200 million below forecasted expectations).
- The Knights of Ren will finally be included. These guys are a sunk cost at this point. There are costumes. There is VFX prep. Not having them is millions thrown away.
- A Rebel/Republic fleet capable of challenging the First Order will emerge from nowhere.
- There will be a superweapon of some kind. It is likely to be spherical.
- The ST will continue to lack substantial non-human characters.

Predictions dependent upon what happens with Solo:
- If Solo tanks and gets eaten by a combination of Deadpool 2 (premiering a week prior) and the various blockbusters premiering in June the non-Disney studios will throw up a wall of counterprogramming against Episode IX. It is likely that one of these films will star The Rock.

[Scowling Dragon]

- If Solo tanks and gets eaten by a combination of Deadpool 2

This is what happens when you monopolize everything to such a degree.

Disney will be competing-WITH ITSELF now.

[Mightymosy]

Agreed. In fact I expect all problematic technical matters to be ignored going forward. Technology in the galaxy far, far away will do whatever the plot demands of it from this point forward, never mind the lore. [...]
Things I predict will be true for Episode IX:

- It will underperform financially to an even greater degree than TLJ did (and yes the verdict is in, TLJ came in around 200 million below forecasted expectations).
- The Knights of Ren will finally be included. These guys are a sunk cost at this point. There are costumes. There is VFX prep. Not having them is millions thrown away.
- A Rebel/Republic fleet capable of challenging the First Order will emerge from nowhere.
- There will be a superweapon of some kind. It is likely to be spherical.
- The ST will continue to lack substantial non-human characters.

[...]

So true!

The mnost important thing is that IX ends in a way that opens up the story for the countless future movies and toys and games and stuff they want to make.
Thus, it has to end with a rebel alliance, sorry resistance that looks like the rebel alliance which has all kinds of reasons to fight and the hope that they can eventually win.
The empire, sorry, the first order which looks like the empire, has been beaten up somewhat, but it is a very credible and dangerous threat.

In other words, a rehash of RotJ, just with the FO being left alive (which the empire WAS after RotJ but you needed to read the EU to know that, or THINK )

Also I'm really sure one sith, sorry, dark side user who does not call themselves Sith, will be alive and continue the tradition. I think Kylo will survive and he and Rey will have a "mystery box" kind of a relationship with each other where the question "will they or won't they?" will be left unanswered for the fans to explore.

This JJ guy is not the most immovative storyteller either. I really liked the Star Trek movies, but they were reboots. Reboots well done in a certain kind of way, but Reboots. Star Wars VII showed that reboots are the name of the game with JJ Abrams.
So I expect Abrams will deliver a movie that is very much a reverence to Star Wars, but not a logical continuation of TLJ. And given his love for mystery boxes, it will not have a satisfying ending in the sense that it explains things.

Things will happen. And a lot of lense flares might help to persuade people that the shiny Star Wars franchise is back. But answer stuff? I'd be surprised, given what people said about Lost.....

[Metahuman1]

Whole lot of people are going to need to either be fired or drug into behind locked doors meetings and told in no uncertain terms that one teeny slip up or toe out of like and they will be thrown out with all there office content right behind them and not only black listed from Disney, all Disney staff will have a picture of them and standing orders to abduct and murder out of sight, on sight.


If that happens, we *Might.* get a movie in the ballpark of Return of the Jedi or The Force Awakens or maybe Revenge of the Sith. At best. (Though I will concede we might after that get some quality stuff if they do either get these people under control or get them gone.)

If that does not happen, then either it won't matter because the crowd that didn't get fired or threatened into getting there act in gear will just throw it out after episode 9 so that they can go back to the episode 8 model until it does happen, or, they'll manage to make sure to muck it up to stick to there guns from episode 8 during episode 9 and go from there.



Given that they apparently foolishly trusted most of these people in the first place and in at least 1 case, gave him a contract for 3 movies and a TV show, I sincerely doubt the needed firing is going to happen.

[Sapphire Guard]

Timeskip. Rey levels up using the book. Ren has trouble ruling his empire.

Luke's Force Ghost haunts Ren, possibly Rey as well.

Unlikely but interesting: Snoke and Luke ghosts being the angel and devil on their shoulders.

Rey v Ren duel ends in draw, both knocked out. Rey rescued by friends, Ren killed by Hux.

Possible: Knights of Ren v Rey's new trainees.

A new Rebel fleet shows up from somewhere. Most of it is slaughtered yet again.

[Anonymouswizard]

We're going to get more mystery boxes. Nevermind that there's still a mystery from the last film to be solved (what is written in the Jedi books?), JJ Abrams loves giving us more without answers planned out.

There's a lot I dislike about TLJ, getting down to insignificant things such as being a Finn/Poe shipper rather than a Finn/Rose shipper (Finn and Poe are just so adorable together!). But I do like that it took the most annoying mystery box ('who are Rey's parents') and gave it the obvious answer.

So, I forsee the following happening:
-The Knights of Ren either appear or are confirmed not to be around. Probably the latter, so we can have a Knights of Ren: A Star Wars Story film.
-The Resistance gains a fleet from somewhere, and becomes a thorn in the First Order's side inconvenient technology such as hyperspace ramming or tracking through FTL is ignored.
-Rey becomes more awesome for no real reason, and her flaws from TLJ (being unwilling to listen to others, being impulsive) are ignored.
-Rey is a Jedi, like her father before her. P.S. that totally believable revelation from the last film? An evil lie.
-Kylo gets redeemed.
-If the FO survives Kylo leaves, and it's taken over by General Hux. Hux turns out to be a better leader than Kylo in later films, but not as good as Snoke.

[GloatingSwine]

It's a JJ Abrams movie, that means it will be full of mystery boxes that mean nothing that neeeeerds will get all excited about on the internet until the next one shows how empty they were all along at which point the neeeeerds will be sad.

[Darth Ultron]

I think Star Wars Episode 9 is going to be:
"Star Wars-The Apology"


I'm not sure ''apology'' is correct. It's more like ''the mess continues''.

The basic problem is having random people do a set trilogy with no overall oversight. Each person is making their own, stand alone, Star Wars film. And worse, your getting everyone doing the ''I'm the super duper Star Wars Expert and everyone else is wrong, and I, will make the movie the right way!"

It's bad enough that many people don't get that with a Shared Universe, you have to accept some limitations and you can't just do whatever you want. Far too many people are just like "I'm the greatest and can do whatever I want". Now, more normal people can accept this, but not everyone can.

Then toss in the insane level of political correctness...like everyone saying over and over again ''Star Wars must have strong female characters''.....and then worse, they don't even try to do that. Like, wow, Rae is the Super Most Powerful Jedi 4Ever....you know, because she IS a girl.

So the mess will just continue.

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm not sure ''apology'' is correct. It's more like ''the mess continues''.

As in the Apology to shareholders. To me personally, Im unenthused. By this point the trilogy IS a mess even on a very basic term and even "Salvaging" it will leave it lopsided.

What I listed where not things I was HOPING they would do but the sort of thing you do to make Fans "Happy".

[GrayDeath]

I (sadly) must agree.

JJ Nothing new/clearly solved EVAR!!" Abrams will redo a lot of the good stuff from TLJ, probably keep the bad stuff (and twist it so that its more MYSTERIOUS BRO!), and we`ll timeskip to do so.

Say 10 years.

And we`ll be exactly where RotJ was: Desperate strike of the Rebels to beat the Evil Order, which will succeed to remove its leadership, but elave enoughg there so that they wont have "won" won.

And enter next trilogy.

[Strigon]

Luke wakes up from a terrible dream. It's five years after the OT, and Obi-Wan says his final farewell to Luke.
We find out Leia is pregnant with her and Han's first child; twins, actually. We find out that The New Republic is struggling to finish off the last of the Empire's forces, mostly due to the tactical genius of their new commander...

I joke, but that's just about the only thing I'd accept at this point. JJ, Disney, if you're reading this, I'm willing to overlook the nonsense that you've pulled with the new canon if you stop this madness now. Please?

[GrayDeath]

Luke wakes up from a terrible dream. It's five years after the OT, and Obi-Wan says his final farewell to Luke.
We find out Leia is pregnant with her and Han's first child; twins, actually. We find out that The New Republic is struggling to finish off the last of the Empire's forces, mostly due to the tactical genius of their new commander...

I joke, but that's just about the only thing I'd accept at this point. JJ, Disney, if you're reading this, I'm willing to overlook the nonsense that you've pulled with the new canon if you stop this madness now. Please?

Oh, that would of course be fantastic. As unlikely as me winning big in the lottery mayhap, but fantastic nonetheless.

One vcould even spin it to Luke creating all that as a manifestation of his Angst AND a prophecy at once AND bring a more logical, interesting and Tactical Plot (neve before noticed Sarcasm and Thrawn have the same coloring here. Coincidence? I think not ^^).

[Dr.Samurai]

The opening crawl will reveal:

- Luke's sacrifice has inspired millions across the galaxy, and the Resistance has had a flood of new recruits and support from various systems.

- Leia has passed away and Poe has taken command of the new Resistance Army.

- Rey has been studying the texts and has become more powerful than we could ever imagine.

- Kylo has been on the warpath and has conquered a ****-ton number of planets/systems.

- Finn and Rose have opened a sanctuary for abused dog-horses run by enslaved children that they give cracker-jack rings to.

I don't think they'll retract things like Hyperspace Ramming/Tracking. I think they'll just ignore it. They may have to gloss over it to keep things a little tight, maybe by saying that only the Raddus/Supremacy could ram/track for whatever reasons.

Luke will return as a ghost, and I think there's a good chance that Snoke would return as well, but only as something for Kylo to overcome one more time in an actual Force battle.

[Metahuman1]

Hyperspace tracking will probably now have a scrambler so that you can't do it anymore.



Ramming: Given who's working on it, I expect it to go something like this.

"Oh, Hux was such a moron he dropped his shields to keep more power in the engines and weapons to hit from out of range, but Saint Hodo was so amazing and brilliant and perfect that she remembered that with shields down, ramming was possible and a light speed ram could cause the debris form the first collision to take out the other ships and thus let the transport ships get to the base!"


We won't see it again, unless the bad guys are being lead by "A Moron.". Whom will coincidentally only ever be male according to in universe canon and lore, even if out of universe we can see how truly unimpressive they are.

[Zevox]

Rey v Ren duel ends in draw, both knocked out. Rey rescued by friends, Ren killed by Hux.
Not gonna lie, I would consider seeing the film just for that. I'm planning to skip it at this point, but if it has that specific moment, it might be worth sitting through whatever the rest of it was to see. It would be so satisfying to see Ren cast aside the same way Snoke was.


Luke wakes up from a terrible dream. It's five years after the OT, and Obi-Wan says his final farewell to Luke.
We find out Leia is pregnant with her and Han's first child; twins, actually. We find out that The New Republic is struggling to finish off the last of the Empire's forces, mostly due to the tactical genius of their new commander...

I joke, but that's just about the only thing I'd accept at this point. JJ, Disney, if you're reading this, I'm willing to overlook the nonsense that you've pulled with the new canon if you stop this madness now. Please?
Only in our wildest dreams...

[Callos_DeTerran]

Only in our wildest dreams...

Your dream, my nightmare.

[McStabbington]

Uh, I think it will be gangbusters marketing for a 2-out-of-5 star movie. That's basically what J.J. Abrams does.

The thing to remember about movie-making, as a business, is that directors aren't getting their money from audiences. They're getting their money from producers. It's the producers who essentially gamble huge sums of money in hopes of seeing a decent Return on Investment on the back end. And because of this quirk in financing films, the director's job isn't to sell a movie to the audience. His job is to sell the movie that the producer thinks the audience wants, which is not the same thing.

That's J.J. Abrams' real strength as a director. He's the anti-auteur for producers that are scared of turning over their IP's to a director. Sure, the product is middling at best, but what's important is that he keeps everyone happy, he keeps the production running on-time and under-budget, and there's absolutely no studio note he won't dutifully take and incorporate into his film, no matter what it does to the film, or how deep into production he is. Because he's there for the producers, and kind of assumes that he can simply lie and jank his way to a great opening weekend. So far, that assumption has always paid off.

As for what's actually in the movie? That's really besides the point. Whatever there needs to be to make a stellar trailer, which is the only thing he's gunning for. Beyond that, it's pretty much just a Transformers film, with less outright disdain for the source material.

[Mechalich]

The thing to remember about movie-making, as a business, is that directors aren't getting their money from audiences. They're getting their money from producers. It's the producers who essentially gamble huge sums of money in hopes of seeing a decent Return on Investment on the back end. And because of this quirk in financing films, the director's job isn't to sell a movie to the audience. His job is to sell the movie that the producer thinks the audience wants, which is not the same thing.

The producers are a known quantity. The ultimate person in control of Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy. She has the final say. Her decision making process so far has not been especially good, particularly in not pulling Rian Johnson's all new trilogy from production after the disastrous fan response to TLJ. One can debate that movie's merits, but the massive fan outcry is not a question and there's no reason to reward the person behind such controversy.

[Hopeless]

To make this work using TLJ...

1)Open the movie with what looks like recorded footage from Star Killer Base, the Supremacy and Crait.
The death of Han makes it clear this is being watched by Imperials who have been kept in line by Snoke holding their kids hostage.
Well Snoke is dead and someone deliberately released the First Order's footage of the battle of Crait on the Holonet revealing Luke Skywalker's final battle effectively announcing if anyone's going to fight the First Order it needs to be now and it's clear the message was received because the entire galaxy has risen to the challenge!

Yes demonstrate how they received that message because why would anyone be inspired by someone unless they had damn good reason to do anything about it!

2) Even the Imperials want to fight against the First Order!
Have a rogue group intercept the Falcon and offer help how about reveal Finn's family?!

3) Have Luke be dropped off on the Falcon instead of die?
Rian admits he made a mistake not having Luke's hand drop to the ground so use that!
Rey gets the training she needs, enough of this ****ting on Star Wars provide answers not meaningless mystery boxes as this is supposed to be the last Skywalker Saga movie!

4) Who is providing the First Order with their tech?
The Chiss?
Imagine if the New Republic was becoming seriously Anti-human because of the First Order?
Would explain why the largely human Resistance was underfunded and with Snoke not being human maybe he used his spies to tag all the Resistance supplied ships so the FO could easily track them?

5) Reveal the map to Luke was a ruse Leia set up to discover how badly Snoke had infiltrated the New Republic.
The true map was in R2 the entire time meaning LST literally sacrificed his life to help Leia!

6) Reveal Phasma is Snoke's other apprentice, seriously let her do something this time!

7) Let Luke survive so he can go happily into obscurity rather than continue this farce of killing off the OT in your movies!

8) Show more aliens?

[Mightymosy]

I bet 100 gold that the hyperspace attack's technicality will not be mentioned with one single word in SW IX.

At best they mention it happened. But I doubt even that.

Remember Abram's Star Trek 2?
They had this super super teleport device which Khan used to port from earth to the Klingons.
That would surely be handy.
Kinda makes spaceships unnecessary.
That's precisely why its never mentioned again.
Likewise, Khan's blood which can resurrect dead people.
The next time someone dies NOONE remembers that it even existed

[Anonymouswizard]

Remember Abram's Star Trek 2?
They had this super super teleport device which Khan used to port from earth to the Klingons.
That would surely be handy.
Kinda makes spaceships unnecessary.
That's precisely why its never mentioned again.
Likewise, Khan's blood which can resurrect dead people.
The next time someone dies NOONE remembers that it even existed

Yeah, with the interstellar teleportation I've seen it done extremely well maybe a couple of times. I'm fine with such devices replacing spaceships, but the only time I've seen them both work is where spaceships are specifically used for economic independence. I've also see reviving the dead work in a story, but not in a way that was hamfisted into it.

I mean, the federation is at a high enough technology level that, once they have a working anti-dead serum, they can just synthesise all the components and not have to rely on KHAAAAAAAAN. I get that the interstellar teleporter might be a prototype transporter derivative, but transporter technology already went a bit wonky once they let you transport instantly to a ship going FTL outside the system.

I find the blood serum especially annoying because it reminds me of Wrath of Khan. Even though it was a late edition, setting the seeds for Spock's return works because it's using an established bit of Star Trek lore, it forms the basis of an entire sequel, and it can't be easily repeated. Spock's death scene is also so good that I refuse to actually see The Search for Spock, the film was actually a great potential ending for the franchise.

Kirk's return is shortly after his on-screen death. The MacGuffin comes out of nowhere when they need to get Kirk back, leads to a rather pointless action scene, and is forgotten about even though it would cause a huge change in federation society. It felt like Kirk's death was added into the story to remind of us Spock's sacrifice, but that scene was one of the best sacrifices in all cinema and lead to an emotional ending, whereas Kirk is back on his feet before you can say 'space herpes'.

[Darth Ultron]

The opening crawl will reveal:


Sounds good.

Lets see, so to ''copy'' Return of the Jedi.....

1)Finn is caught by Space Mob guys and locked in an Ice Cube. Then all the other main characters will ''sneak'' in and free him.

2)The New Empire Will make Galaxy-Killer Base....it's a Whole Evil Galaxy Base....that can fire a blast of energy that can destroy a Galaxy.

3)Ren will trick the rebels into attacking Galaxy-Killer Base and have TWO legions of his best troops ready to attack them.

4)The main characters will ''sneak'' into the Other Galaxy; Rae will go to fight Ren alone like on a cliff or something...everyone else will have to turn off the Evil Galaxy Shield.

5)The main cast will encounter cute, furry green rabbit people...befriend them...and they will help attack the Empire's forces.

6)Rae kills Ren, the heroes turn off the shield, and the rebels blow up the Galaxy-Killer Base....

[Scowling Dragon]

The producers are a known quantity. The ultimate person in control of Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy. She has the final say. Her decision making process so far has not been especially good, particularly in not pulling Rian Johnson's all new trilogy from production after the disastrous fan response to TLJ.

Brand Strengh. The problem is that if they pull an entire trilogy with a director, their stocks will PLUMMET. They NEED the illusion of strengh.
They need EVERYBODY to believe that everybody LOVES their new products more then they even need people loving their products.
It means they admit that TLJ wasn't good, which as the middle of the way for their first trilogy is disastrous.

[zimmerwald1915]

But again Shareholders don't think like that.
Yet another example of why the transfer of power from management to shareholders was a mistake.

[Reddish Mage]

Yet another example of why the transfer of power from management to shareholders was a mistake.

That’s sarcasm right?

[zimmerwald1915]

That’s sarcasm right?
Not at all! The business philosophy of protecting shareholders' interests in a firm over management's*, labor's, the community's, consumers' and other moral/social/non-equity stakeholders' only gained predominance within the last fifty years, and over that time has led to the systematic ruination of all those non-equity stakeholders' interests as well as the general public's. It was a mistake.

It's also one we'll just have to live with, because as your comment demonstrates, it's a practically unquestionable dogma at this point and there's no will whatsoever to challenge it.

* Formerly, management's interests predominated, which wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows but did mean there was an identifiable body upon which other conceptual stakeholders could make demands and with which they could negotiate.

[McStabbington]

The producers are a known quantity. The ultimate person in control of Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy. She has the final say. Her decision making process so far has not been especially good, particularly in not pulling Rian Johnson's all new trilogy from production after the disastrous fan response to TLJ. One can debate that movie's merits, but the massive fan outcry is not a question and there's no reason to reward the person behind such controversy.

I'm aware of that, and it doesn't alter my analysis.

Ultimately, I think the central mistake that Kennedy made is, quite simply, is that she should have focused less on meeting demand than taking it slow and re-building the brand. At least until quite recently, there was one studio that I trusted implicitly to put out a quality product each time, every time. That studio was Pixar. And there's a reason for that: because movie by movie, they had built that reputation by belting out classic after classic. The run that Pixar had between Toy Story and Wall-E is one of the best strings of movies put out by one studio since the original run of Disney films back in the 30's. And given that Pixar had been spun off of Disney, and had then-recently been reabsorbed back into Disney, I expected that they might follow suit with Star Wars, which, let's face it, needed to be rehabilitated after Lucas had spent about ten years slowing eating through all the good will he had earned over the preceding twenty. I expected them to take the time that was needed, and get the story right, and put out a classic that would make things right with the world.

That expectation ran into a rather sharp snag when Disney announced that, for the foreseeable future, it would be putting out one Star Wars film a year, every year. Were the plans already in place? Didn't matter. Did they have an idea for the stories and direction of the universe? Didn't matter. What happened if there were production delays? Didn't matter. What was important was making their deadlines with films that didn't go over budget. Which is a desire that is not compatible with taking the time you need, and getting the script absolutely right.

After that, things pretty much went the way they had too. As I said, if you want to make certain a movie comes in on time and under budget, J.J. Abrams is very, very good choice. That's his superpower. But it doesn't translate into particularly good films, because Abrams really doesn't care what's in the script. He'll shoot whatever you want, and then say there's a mystery in the script as a marketing gimmick, and then browbeat the nerds who complain about the plot holes by calling them the fun police. He's cool with whatever the final product turns out to be, and passive-aggressive in the extreme with anyone who isn't.

The point being, J.J. Abrams isn't the problem, not really. The problem is that Star Wars needed the same level of care and attention that Pixar paid to its films during its run of success to rehabilitate the franchise. When Disney bought the franchise, to be blunt, I was long since past the point of not wanting to buy a single Star Wars item ever again. Lucas had poisoned the brand that badly for me. A mere three movies later? They're at the exact same point with the Abrams Trilogy and the off-year films. I was underwhelmed by The Force Awakens, Rogue One and The Last Jedi, and now I know not to trust reviews about the franchise. If you still like it, hey, great for you. But I'm already tired of the franchise, and I just don't see any good reason to return.

[Jayngfet]

The producers are a known quantity. The ultimate person in control of Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy. She has the final say. Her decision making process so far has not been especially good, particularly in not pulling Rian Johnson's all new trilogy from production after the disastrous fan response to TLJ. One can debate that movie's merits, but the massive fan outcry is not a question and there's no reason to reward the person behind such controversy.

This absolutely cannot happen. Kennedy struggled to get a director for 7 since nobody wanted to touch it(and even J.J. initially refused), booted the director for 9, and booted two for Solo. Trank got the axe before anyone even knew what his film was. Lucasfilm is very much gaining a reputation for being difficult to work with and if they dropped him from this film it would cement that reputation. Instead, Johnson will direct the first movie and at best be a producer on the rest of the trilogy. He was only formally announced as directing the one.

But for what it's worth, the Executive Producer for The Last Jedi wasn't Kathleen Kennedy. It was J.J. Abrams. On paper at least, he was the one who wielded ultimate power over the film and could veto or push through any decision he pleased. The official line is he essentially never used it, and instead J.J. was willing to change things in his film to accommodate this one, but that's neither here nor there. The obvious conclusion is that this was a puff piece to distract from the last movies flaws while hyping this one up(which could be said for a lot of things, like that ridiculous video claiming that Daisy Ridley is some kind of anime protagonist who can sponge other people's fighting techniques instantly).

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm honestly coming to the conclusion that, rehash or not, the franchise should have ended after TFA. Maybe RO (although I disliked the film). But TLJ managed that trick of being disliked by both OT fans and PT fans (yes, we do exist*). TFA left on a to be continued note that in all honesty didn't need a sequel, because it felt like a case of 'you all know what's coming'. If we ignore the PT for a moment TFA hinted at a galactic cycle, where an Empire would rise, a rebellion would form, and Jedi would ultimately help the rebellion take down the Empire. That would have been interesting.

* In my opinion most of the PT's plot holes are in TPM. The problems with the PT ate poor direction leading to poor acting and an over reliance on CGI.

[Hopeless]

Until TFA I have never been able to spot mistakes in a movie before!

I don't actually mind the PT because at worst as long as they don't blow up C3-PO I can justify it by saying that's how C3-PO thought it happened even though he was clearly mind wiped in ROTS!

TFA should have kept Poe involved he recognises the Falcon given he pretty much grew up alongside it as a child so they escape the TIEs he gets BB-8 to call Chewie they come pick them up but instead of Rathtars he's smuggling supplies to the Resistance and Poe's unit is aboard along with starfighters.
Han takes them to Takodana, Kylo follows them there due to the tracker Unkar placed on the Falcon.
Maz's Castle is used by pirates, smugglers, etc so when attacked they fight back!
Starkiller Base doesn't shoot across the galaxy that would need the targets "painted" so it can lock on so either demonstrate FO ships in orbit being used for that purpose don't make up stuff because you think bigger is better use current tech as a way of explaining why they can do that so it might be eye opening but you have people realising they can do stuff like that today just nowhere near that scale!

Instead of that refresh hyperlight jump, how about Finn reveal its possible for a ship to pass through that shield if it has a FO IF Beacon oh look crashed FO Transport how about rigging it up to the Falcon so it can pass through?

It does so but lands quickly to avoid a TIE patrol.

Phasma is Rey's Aunt, SHE is also Snoke's apprentice and helped her influence the guard before arranging her capture so she can lead them to Rey.

Rest as filmed except Snoke coerced Kylo to kill Han it might be considered naff, but it would help if you want people thinking he can be redeemed even if you don't!

The Last Jedi: Holdo is Republic, Rose is a Special Forces Mechanic explaining her distrusting Finn better.
Finn wakes up from nightmares of Rey being tortured in Snoke's presence.
This causes Poe to delay going to the hangar and draws Holdo off the bridge as the actual spy tags both bridge and Poe's Starfighter to decapitate the leadership.
At the same moment Leia Poppins occurs Luke is holding the lightsaber he tossed it aside because like it did to Rey it forcibly reawakens him causing him to help Leia save herself.
Holdo sends Finn with a specforce unit (including Rose) to infiltrate the Supremacy he agrees because of his force vision.
Their arguing gets them jailed whilst on Canto Blight, but avoids an intended FO trap to capture Finn.
DJ helps them infiltrate the Supremacy by handing Finn over.
Snoke uses Finn to draw Rey out before she's fully trained ala ESB because Snoke is a freaking Vader fanboy!
We learn Rey was raised by a Jedi Survivor on Jakku meaning she was a fully trained Padawan who had to be freed from a Jedi induced mind whammies by Finn returning for her before she knew how to wield a lightsaber properly and not drop it and run because of her amnesia!
Phasma free Finn to help her rescue this reveals Rey is her niece and the fact she helped them the last time yes the Darth Vader reveal subverted you know properly!
Kylo breaks free from Snoke's control but Snoke is unaware when he reveals he coerced Kylo into killing Han that's why Kylo kills him.
Phasma, Finn help Rey & Kylo fight Snoke's guard Finn grabs Rey and flees first chance he can as Kylo ascends the throne where he's promptly possessed by the true Snoke a force entity seeking a suitable host body given he keeps burning them out.
DJ by the way helps them escape so he gets paid by both sides even though he gave the FO Finn!
Holdo does her sacrifice but Kylo-Snoke shrugs knowing Leia is on Crait.
Confrontation with illusionary Luke but Luke knows it's not Kylo mocking Snoke as he faces away and NOT DYING!

Sorry had to get that off my chest!

Episode 9: We learn the rest of the galaxy has risen but was too busy fighting the First Order to send help.
Rey returns to Acht-Tu to finish her training hopefully we learn there's a Mon Calamari colony there so Luke actually rejoins them where they regroup calling in backup as he wasn't the only survivor of his academy that was just what the FO thought!

PS:In case you're wondering my spellchecker apparently doesn't understand to leave my typing the fcuk alone!

[Metahuman1]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand Abrams shot his mouth off again and confirmed for me that we are almost certainly going to get total garbage on par with Last Jedi for Episode 9.

So, yeah, I'm calling the franchise Dead. We will get some hits out of Rebels, but yeah, quality for the franchise is over.

[Anonymouswizard]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand Abrams shot his mouth off again and confirmed for me that we are almost certainly going to get total garbage on par with Last Jedi for Episode 9.

So, yeah, I'm calling the franchise Dead. We will get some hits out of Rebels, but yeah, quality for the franchise is over.

Source?

I'm hoping somebody will capitalise on the downfall of Star Wars by trying to start a 'new' big space franchise. There's a lot of potential for a good Culture film, and while I'd love to see an adaptation of a Peter F. Hamilton book I understand that they would fail as films (you'd pretty much have to split each book into two to get in enough of the plot, and not every book has a decent 'end of part 1' climax).

[Scowling Dragon]

Source?

Maybe this? (http://ew.com/movies/2018/02/17/jj-abrams-star-wars-backlash-threatened-by-women/)

And can we get over this? This world has 7 Billion people. Your brain cannot comprehend even 1 million. Statistics-wise there are gonna be jerks, and they are gonna have their voices heard, don't panic and don't treat them as somekind of cultural force that has to be "Defeated". Making "Positive" creations out of spite is a terrible thing to do and leads nowhere.

Number two, I KNOW RT and Disney know that more then just "Trolls" gave negative reviews to TLJ but its a good brush off point. This is to regular people: just because somebody takes credit for it doesn't make it real without evidence.

Edit:

or Maybe this (http://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-star-wars-episode-9-remarks/)

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe this? (http://ew.com/movies/2018/02/17/jj-abrams-star-wars-backlash-threatened-by-women/)

What?

People didn't like The Last Jedi, because it had too many women in it?

While I'm sure that's somewhat true for certain people, others had legitimate complaints about it. I also find that article highly manipulative, taking a response to the more idiotic complaints and suggesting that that's the entirety of the complaints.

Now I'll straight up admit, I suspect the difference of opinions regarding the film as being thanks to critics and general audiences wanting different things. Critics saw that it took risks, tried to shake up the status quo, and so on and so forth. Other people just wanted to see Star Wars. However a lot of articles I've seen have essentially told me I'm wrong for going to see a Star Wars film wanting to see Star Wars.

If I wanted a different kind of story, I wouldn't have bought a ticket to Star Wars. I'd have stayed home and read Red Mars or Fine Structure, watched Bablyon 5 or Star Trek, or maybe I'd have moved out of speculative fiction and watched a gangster film. Star Wars has a very specific style that I've come to associate with it, and I just didn't feel like TLJ fit that. But I'm apparently wrong because 'Star Wars has to grow up'.

Now I'm not going to claim these films have ruined my childhood or anything. I was born at exactly the right point for the Prequels to be coming out as I grew up, so I can't exactly claim to have the most objective view of the Star Wars franchise. But I think the Sequel Trilogy has lost it's place in my personal headcannon, and won't be inviting it to my Star Wars marathons.


And can we get over this? This world has 7 Billion people. Your brain cannot comprehend even 1 million. Statistics-wise there are gonna be jerks, and they are gonna have their voices heard, don't panic and don't treat them as somekind of cultural force that has to be "Defeated". Making "Positive" creations out of spite is a terrible thing to do and leads nowhere.

Sure, Star Wars isn't dead yet. I maintain that it'll die at some point, maybe not within my lifetime, but eventually.

I'm just annoyed that the prevalence of Star Wars means my attempts to introduce people to the science fiction books I adore is difficult. Either I get 'so it's like Star Wars' and have to explain how very much that isn't true (or even how they came first), or people hear that they're not like Star Wars in every way and lose hope. To me it seems like that the amazing science fiction that has been written and is still being written cannot break out because Star Wars is too popular.


Number two, I KNOW RT and Disney know that more then just "Trolls" gave negative reviews to TLJ but its a good brush off point. This is to regular people: just because somebody takes credit for it doesn't make it real without evidence.

Oh, sure. But I can still hate them for exactly that kind of manipulative tactics.


Edit:

or Maybe this (http://www.slashfilm.com/jj-abrams-star-wars-episode-9-remarks/)

This one is more interesting. I'll cop to the fact that I think TLJ at least gives JJ Abrams a good jumping off point to tell a story from. The Resistance is reduced to a single ship with their only force sensitive trying to become a self-trained Jedi. In that I think he's right in not letting fan backlash change how he's going to be making E9, because he's been left in a very good position with a bunch of characters audiences are invested in (even if some of us want to kill off Rose for getting in the way of our shipping).

I'd much rather fix Episode VIII by removing the plot problems I see and changing Luke's character somewhat (including having him give Rey some more actual training to justify her being skilled). My problem with the film isn't the destination, and I think Episode IX has a lot of potential due to where it has to start from, my problems are all with the journey. And the space bombers, don't forget the space bombers.

[Scowling Dragon]

Now I'll straight up admit, I suspect the difference of opinions regarding the film as being thanks to critics and general audiences wanting different things. Critics saw that it took risks, tried to shake up the status quo, and so on and so forth.

For me I thought its risks and shakeup where stupid. I wanted a shakeup more then ANY of those citics that dragged their feet at the accusation that TFA was a rehash.

If it was a risk, it was betting the farm on lottery tickets.
if it was a shakeup, it was the kind that induces nausea and vomiting.
Just because you subvert, doesn't make it GOOD.

And if all those critics bet all their filmographical knowledge on the idea of subversion, and then give a free check for any problems, then those critics have less film understanding then I do.



This one is more interesting. I'll cop to the fact that I think TLJ at least gives JJ Abrams a good jumping off point to tell a story from.

In the same sense that I guess a burnt down apartment complex is a good jumping off point for luxury condoes.
This is movie ****ing 9. 9! the third in this trilogy of "Jumping off Points".

This was always built on quicksand and it collapses into quicksand. They destroyed everything for the precious nostalgia bucks and to make a remake without needing to call it that.

I have HAD it giving JJ the opportunity. His remakes SUCK. He doesn't care, and doesn't understand the soul of anything. But he can dip anything in a coat of laminade and produce servicable nothing.

[Dr.Samurai]

I wouldn’t take too much from those articles. There are people vested in asking those questions to keep that particular narrative going, and obviously Abrams is going to criticize anyone that thinks “there are too many women in Star Wars”, which I’m sure is a laughingnly small number. I mean... who wouldn’t criticize them lol?

But these articles are pure fluff pieces. Nothing more.

[Anonymouswizard]

For me I thought its risks and shakeup where stupid. I wanted a shakeup more then ANY of those citics that dragged their feet at the accusation that TFA was a rehash.

If it was a risk, it was betting the farm on lottery tickets.
if it was a shakeup, it was the kind that induces nausea and vomiting.
Just because you subvert, doesn't make it GOOD.

And if all those critics bet all their filmographical knowledge on the idea of subversion, and then give a free check for any problems, then those critics have less film understanding then I do.

I'm going to leave this alone, it's not my field.


In the same sense that I guess a burnt down apartment complex is a good jumping off point for luxury condoes.
This is movie ****ing 9. 9! the third in this trilogy of "Jumping off Points".

This was always built on quicksand and it collapses into quicksand. They destroyed everything for the precious nostalgia bucks and to make a remake without needing to call it that.

I have HAD it giving JJ the opportunity. His remakes SUCK. He doesn't care, and doesn't understand the soul of anything. But he can dip anything in a coat of laminade and produce servicable nothing.

Just to quickly go over the state of the 'game board' at the beginning of Episode IX. Ignoring what were obvious jokes even if they have potential as plot points (such as the 'union dispute', would be cool if it had repercussions in E9 but it's unlikely).

-The Resistance is reduced to a single ship.
-The New Republic isn't strictly out of the game, but it's had most of it's leadership replaced by First Order supporters.
-There are no known trained Jedi in the Galaxy.
-Something is up with the Knights of Ren, but they've not appeared yet.
-The heroes of the old generation are gone. Wasn't originally planned, but it's apparently canon now.
-The Reistance's allies have abandoned it.
-A variety of children have started to awaken to force powers (implied, not stated).
-The First Order has lost it's strong leader, the new one has less vision and less competence.

We can extrapolate a few things from these. Some of them should have been the end of the first film in the trilogy, especially the destruction of the Resistance (at which point building a new one would be the focus of TLJ). I suspect that not only will several of these not be solved in the next film, not all of them are planned to be. It's less a burnt down apartment complex, and more a stripped bare building. Down to there only being a limited number of things you can realistically do without more demolishing.

I especially suspect that the Force Children are planned for post-ST stories if there's any plan for them at all.

Now TLJ is essentially proof that the ST wasn't properly drafted before TFA was made. Which means that I suspect that the plans for E9 were only made late in the creation of TLJ in order to include the events of that film in the events of the next one.

Now I like the suggestion of TFA and TLJ that this trilogy is essentially going to be one story in three parts rather than three separate stories which continue a single arc as the other two trilogies were. But those sort of stories only really work if A) you know where you're going (at least roughly) and B) can keep a consistent tone throughout.

I'm tired of bringing up Night's Dawn in comparison to the new Star Wars films, but to me they really do represent what the films are trying to capture. The Night's Dawn books have an epic storyline about the fate of humanity, larger than life characters, great plot twists, and plans seemingly being pulled out of characters' backsides. The difference is that in Night's Dawn when you go back throughout the story none of it contradicts anything previously established (the one bit that seems to is explained right away as 'this information is just never important').

Then again my favourite Star Wars is Revenge of the Sith. Make of that what you will.

[Scowling Dragon]

Just to quickly go over the state of the 'game board' at the beginning of Episode IX. Ignoring what were obvious jokes even if they have potential as plot points (such as the 'union dispute', would be cool if it had repercussions in E9 but it's unlikely).

-The Resistance is reduced to a single ship.
-The New Republic isn't strictly out of the game, but it's had most of it's leadership replaced by First Order supporters.
-There are no known trained Jedi in the Galaxy.
-Something is up with the Knights of Ren, but they've not appeared yet.
-The heroes of the old generation are gone. Wasn't originally planned, but it's apparently canon now.
-The Reistance's allies have abandoned it.
-A variety of children have started to awaken to force powers (implied, not stated).
-The First Order has lost it's strong leader, the new one has less vision and less competence.

None of these things are real jumping off points at all. They don't really change the game board and functionally what your going to be seeing onscreen will be about the same thing over again.

Except the force children thing and thats both terrible and stupid. If they say that the force is so spontenously evil that even slight hickups make hitlers, then more force is a bad thing not a good thing.

Then again my favourite Star Wars is Revenge of the Sith. Make of that what you will.

I think its pretty good. I like the prequels as a whole in parts.

[Metahuman1]

What?

People didn't like The Last Jedi, because it had too many women in it?

While I'm sure that's somewhat true for certain people, others had legitimate complaints about it. I also find that article highly manipulative, taking a response to the more idiotic complaints and suggesting that that's the entirety of the complaints.

Now I'll straight up admit, I suspect the difference of opinions regarding the film as being thanks to critics and general audiences wanting different things. Critics saw that it took risks, tried to shake up the status quo, and so on and so forth. Other people just wanted to see Star Wars. However a lot of articles I've seen have essentially told me I'm wrong for going to see a Star Wars film wanting to see Star Wars.

If I wanted a different kind of story, I wouldn't have bought a ticket to Star Wars. I'd have stayed home and read Red Mars or Fine Structure, watched Bablyon 5 or Star Trek, or maybe I'd have moved out of speculative fiction and watched a gangster film. Star Wars has a very specific style that I've come to associate with it, and I just didn't feel like TLJ fit that. But I'm apparently wrong because 'Star Wars has to grow up'.

Now I'm not going to claim these films have ruined my childhood or anything. I was born at exactly the right point for the Prequels to be coming out as I grew up, so I can't exactly claim to have the most objective view of the Star Wars franchise. But I think the Sequel Trilogy has lost it's place in my personal headcannon, and won't be inviting it to my Star Wars marathons.



Sure, Star Wars isn't dead yet. I maintain that it'll die at some point, maybe not within my lifetime, but eventually.

I'm just annoyed that the prevalence of Star Wars means my attempts to introduce people to the science fiction books I adore is difficult. Either I get 'so it's like Star Wars' and have to explain how very much that isn't true (or even how they came first), or people hear that they're not like Star Wars in every way and lose hope. To me it seems like that the amazing science fiction that has been written and is still being written cannot break out because Star Wars is too popular.



Oh, sure. But I can still hate them for exactly that kind of manipulative tactics.



This one is more interesting. I'll cop to the fact that I think TLJ at least gives JJ Abrams a good jumping off point to tell a story from. The Resistance is reduced to a single ship with their only force sensitive trying to become a self-trained Jedi. In that I think he's right in not letting fan backlash change how he's going to be making E9, because he's been left in a very good position with a bunch of characters audiences are invested in (even if some of us want to kill off Rose for getting in the way of our shipping).

I'd much rather fix Episode VIII by removing the plot problems I see and changing Luke's character somewhat (including having him give Rey some more actual training to justify her being skilled). My problem with the film isn't the destination, and I think Episode IX has a lot of potential due to where it has to start from, my problems are all with the journey. And the space bombers, don't forget the space bombers.

Except that that's not what he's doing.


This is a man who openly complained that there are too many white people at The Academy Awards and The Emmy Awards.

As far as he's concerned, all complains against the movie are racism and sexism and mysoginy and homophobia and transphobia and any other such label he can slap on it to say "If you complain, dissent, disagree, dislike, criticize or have any problems with it your just a horrible, evil human being. Now shut up." Because now he can brush aside anyone pointing out that his movie and the politics he's openly admitting to using the movies to push are horrible and we don't want it.

So, yeah, were getting a doubling down for Episode 9. Were getting more of that for 3 movies after that thanks to putting the jerk in charge of episode 8 in charge of those. Were getting that for the TV series as well.

It was nice that we got three amazing movies and a few genuinely good games and 2 genuinely good TV shows, but the franchise is officially dead, cold and in the ground. It could recover, but the people running the show are now zealots whom will never allow that, because that would run counter to there own world views.





Oh, and, as for caring about the characters,


I dislike Finn, I hate Rose, I am hurt and betrayed by Rey, and I couldn't care less about Poe.

That leaves 3 droids and the Wookie, whom, let's face it, are not going to be the one's doing things of consequence because we need to shove badly though out girl power down the audience's throat violently.

So, all they've done is make sure I don't care anymore.

[Peelee]

That leaves 3 droids and the Wookie

Wookiee. 2 E's.

[Scowling Dragon]

It could recover, but the people running the show are now zealots whom will never allow that, because that would run counter to there own world views.

Thats only 40-60% of it.

Again, Disney is riding this franchise for the shareholders and admitting to a mistake is DEATH to stock prices. I BET that the people in charge are LIVID against Brian Jonson but they gotta double down or else the entire empire crumbles. They will just break his hands over a metal drum in a back alley as punishment and he will be director in name only for the future movies.
Disney needs to look impervious even if it kills it ya dig?

All this gaslighting isn't for us, its for the shareholders. And if you think shareholders are too smart for this let me remind you during the Pokemon Go Boom, they invested in ****ing Nintendo instead of Gamefreak.

[Metahuman1]

Except that Bob Iger is making noise about running against the sitting President Of The United States for the country's traditionally left wing party in the election for that office that will be happening in 2020, and all of a sudden this franchise is throwing copious amounts of left wing propaganda out there.

So, no, the people in charge are NOT livid at Brian Johnson, and he's not going to be Director in name only. There going to keep supporting him whole heartedly because they genuinely want this and think if they just push it hard enough and spend enough money on it and promoting it and propping it up and if they just scream loudly enough at any detractors about what evil and vial people they are for daring to be detractors, they can make it work. And in so doing, make people buy into there world view.

People use to tell me Quesada had no power and was promoted in name only, and that turned out to be false. Same thing. This trio of people are not going to be held to task, ever, but not because righting the ship would be shareholder suicide, but because Ideologically the people at the top fundamentally agree with and support this.

If they were livid, they could just do what Marvel Studio's have done, and gotten rid of people. Marvel parted ways with Joss Wheadon after Avengers 2, with another well known director whom was originally going to direct Ant Man but left the project because he didn't have the amount of creative control to do what he wanted that he wanted (Sound familiar?). And they did that before the movie came out but after they had announced him doing the movie, so they had to announce him leaving and being replaced. They could have, indeed, still could, just say "So, upon reflection and movie goer feed back, we understand this was not what you want to continue seeing, so were going to be making some tweaks. We've transferred Ms. (Miss? I dunno in her case.) Kennedy and Mr. Abrams and Mr. Johnson to creative consultant teams and were bringing in some fresh blood, with all kinds of exciting new ideas! Keeping the franchise fresh but honoring it's storied past! A New Era is here!" They could spin doctor that a trillion ways to Sunday and fans wouldn't be even slightly angry at them by the time it came time to do advanced ticket ordering if they did it now! And if they tighten up and manage to wright the ship going forward, and we can just look back on an era of 1-4 lack luster movies depending on how you count them as a fluke after that, will be fine.

And the shareholders will be ok cause they'll just tell the Shareholders "It's like when Wheadon or *Insert name of other director whom was on Ant Man who's name escapes me at the present.* stepped away form Marvel Projects. The movies kept making money and being major global successes, didn't they? We've done this before, we know how to do it again, there is nothing to worry about. Nothing like being able to point to a known successful quantity and telling shareholders it's a repeat performance after all.





Peelee: Typo. Anyway.

[Scowling Dragon]

Except that Bob Iger is making noise about running against the sitting President Of The United States for the country's traditionally left wing party in the election for that office that will be happening in 2020, and all of a sudden this franchise is throwing copious amounts of left wing propaganda out there.

I said 40-60%. Its not all of it sure, its just also very convenient.

The Black Panther movie for instance. 190% unremarkable. But now that its drummed up as a racial thing, the racists will decry it so now you get to promote it harder as somekind of cultural achievement to give the Disney Megacorporation money.


If they were livid, they could just do what Marvel Studio's have done, and gotten rid of people.

They have, both for ROne and Han Solo. And both did knock on them cash wise. And those are spinoffs. Disney hasn't fully reached "Make our property into a continous stream of mush" phase yet so its critical for them to make their initial films look as stable as possible.

Im not saying political bais isn't driving the bus, Im just saying there are differen buses in this race as well.

[Metahuman1]

I was under the impression that Solo wasn't out yet and that R-One had done decently well, and short comings come form the fact that projections just failed to take into account that it was a spinoff not a main episode movie. That telling people who weren't doing there job (Kennedy.) or whom were actively making a mess for political reasons (All three of them.), wouldn't be bad and in fact might well make them MORE money because no one liked there product after the dust settled, which means fewer people are not going to go see there spin offs and the next few main episode movies, or are going to watch there TV show, particularly if these names are allowed to still be attached to the project. Even if there involvement was being on set. Gagged. In chains. With dozens of men the height of professional NBA players and the build of Arnold during his hey day in the 80's armed with machine guns with laser sights and orders to shoot to kill the instant any of the three of them so much as twitch a muscle or make even the smallest sound under any circumstances the entire time, and when there not filling that time on set, there being kept under similar guard and in a medically induced coma in a privet compound in Switzerland to make sure they can't do any further damage.




Cause I know a whole lot of people that will not touch the next 5+ movies or the upcoming TV show now because these names are attached too it, specifically. I know people who aren't buying any of the merch either because of what's been done to the franchise by these people.

In short, they've damaged the brand, badly, and the only way your ever going to fix that is to get rid of them, and make it known that you've gotten rid of them, and THEN crap on there product in the subsequent installments the way they crapped on what came before them, while simultaneously doing whatever you have to to apologize for that happening and fix it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Let's be honest, most of us are nerds who socialise with nerds. Lots of non nerds will give the TV show a shot and see any film with 'Episode' in the title. I suspect we'll see episodes ten through twelve in a decade or so.

However, I fully expect Star Wars to fall. I just expect it'll only fall from 'massive' to 'big' in the immediate future, and that a clever person could spin a new space opera franchise into popularity from the fall. I don't expect it to dissolve into nothing, of only because people still like the original trilogy.

So yeah, I don't think SW will make Disney all the money in the future, but I don't expect it to be canned die to not being successful enough unless the next episode film makes squat.

[danzibr]

I'd like to see more Wookieees.

[Hopeless]

What if we learn the First Order was the Imperial's version of Leia's Resistance?

Snoke didn't just kidnap entire families under the Republic's nose he also kidnapped and brainwashed kids of the Imperial Remaints leadership thus with his death those Imperials see a chance to free themselves and rescue their kids?

So what if Episode IX starts with a brief flashback revealing we're seeing recorded footage from the First Order's side and this leads to a flotilla sent to answer Leia's call for aid?

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly? I could absolutely see the FO being revealed a 'the Empire's SS, took over the Imperial Remnant and became even more brutal than Palpatine's Empire'. I'm not sure if it will be, because don't the Aftermath books reveal how the Empire became the First Order? I've not read them, but I expect that's not the story they went with.

I actually wouldn't mind if Episode IX introduced a second Imperial Successor Faction. The First Order seems to extreme to have brought all of the old Imperial loyalists under it's banner, and seeing the 'main' films finally address that no, the Empire wasn't even primarily made up of bad guys, just people trying to keep the galaxy's primary civilisation together, would be amazing.

So what if the film begins with the Falcon flying through space, the crew mourning Leia (who died in the brief time skip'), and suddenly they receive a transmission from a Captain/Admiral Palleon (to pick a random name I remember being around in this rough SW time period) offering aid and shelter. As the main characters wonder what to do and whether they can trust him the camera switches to a shot of the Falcon, and then pans to show a classic Star Destroyer.

At this point I don't think they should bring Thrawn into the trilogy, but I see no reason why the Empire cannot return. Outnumbered and hounded by the First Order, but very much alive and very much ready to go down fighting. For even more fun make it so they reinstated the Imperial Senate, if you want to portray them as 'good guys' (if not as good as our heroic 'Resistance').

[hamishspence]

Honestly? I could absolutely see the FO being revealed a 'the Empire's SS, took over the Imperial Remnant and became even more brutal than Palpatine's Empire'. I'm not sure if it will be, because don't the Aftermath books reveal how the Empire became the First Order? I've not read them, but I expect that's not the story they went with.

The Empire's "SS" was the Imperial Security Bureau. As far as we can tell, there weren't that many, with the fleets that fled into the Unknown Regions. In the Aftermath books, at least one ISB agent defects to the New Republic and becomes a protagonist. For that matter, Rebels TV series, before ANH, has a defecting ISB agent.

The First Order created its own version of the ISB though - the guy in the white uniform in TLJ, on Snoke's ship, is one.

The FO being "more brutal than Palpatine's Empire" is fairly plausible conjecture though - most ST-era tie-ins paint them as very villainous.

[Peelee]

I'd like to see more Wookieees.

Wwwookieees. 3 W's.And maybe a .org

[-D-]

I'm gonna channel Inner Red Letter Media and say -

GIANT SPHERICAL DEATH LASERS

[Wookieetank]

Wwwookieees. 3 W's.And maybe a .org

That is terrible, and terribly amusing. I approve :smallcool:

[Dacia Brabant]

I have but one prediction for Episode IX, and it's one I guarantee will come true: I won't watch it.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Oddly, I'm all for MORE diversity in the next movie.

-We need a blue faced alien to do something important. I don't care if the First Order persecuted them into rebellion or what. In fact that would be pretty fitting.

-Can we get a hot alien woman with something shaped like but not hair on top of her head?

-How about a Wookieeee moment. Wasn't Kashyyke (spelled wrong because I'm too lazy to look it up), Wasn't Kashyke essentially stomped on especially brutally by the Empire? Let them be the driving force of the new Alliance

-Can we get a few brown skinned humans doing pretty normal things? No gamblers or funny cowards needed.

-I like someone's idea above of Kylo not being that great a military mind. Oops. It happens. Let him have held purges of the First Order's officer corps which allowed the rebels to rebuild. That boy acted in the last movie, he was not the problem.

-Now I'm not against the casting crew's love of hot short brown haired gals, Padme, Leia, Jyn Erso, and Rey are all easier to look at and acted better than Anakin or Luke ever were. Keep Rey around.

Honestly I loved Rogue One. Put whoever made that in charge.

[Metahuman1]

Oddly, I'm all for MORE diversity in the next movie.

-We need a blue faced alien to do something important. I don't care if the First Order persecuted them into rebellion or what. In fact that would be pretty fitting.

-Can we get a hot alien woman with something shaped like but not hair on top of her head?

-How about a Wookieeee moment. Wasn't Kashyyke (spelled wrong because I'm too lazy to look it up), Wasn't Kashyke essentially stomped on especially brutally by the Empire? Let them be the driving force of the new Alliance

-Can we get a few brown skinned humans doing pretty normal things? No gamblers or funny cowards needed.

-I like someone's idea above of Kylo not being that great a military mind. Oops. It happens. Let him have held purges of the First Order's officer corps which allowed the rebels to rebuild. That boy acted in the last movie, he was not the problem.

-Now I'm not against the casting crew's love of hot short brown haired gals, Padme, Leia, Jyn Erso, and Rey are all easier to look at and acted better than Anakin or Luke ever were. Keep Rey around.

Honestly I loved Rogue One. Put whoever made that in charge.

1: Probably not gonna happen.

2: That would be cool. Double down and have it be the Mandalorian's whom are teaming up with them for it.

It also won't happen though, that would require giving the least bit of a crap about previous canon for a reason OTHER than to run it through the meat grinder while pouring salt and vinegar and sulfer and piss on it and laughing manically. The people running the show won't have that.

3: I wouldn't bet on this. It would be a good thing to do, but I wouldn't bet on it.

4: You might get this.

5: You will get this. In fact I'll be amazed if she's not at least IN the TV show AND the next 3 movies.

[Jayngfet]

Except that Bob Iger is making noise about running against the sitting President Of The United States for the country's traditionally left wing party in the election for that office that will be happening in 2020, and all of a sudden this franchise is throwing copious amounts of left wing propaganda out there.

I've heard of him thinking about governorship, but not presidency. But even that's just vague rumblings. I doubt he'd actually run at this stage.

Either way, you're overthinking it on a fundamental level. Bob Iger is a hands off individual, he doesn't micromanage because he runs the megacorp that owns other megacorps and he has about thirty more movies to worry about. He doesn't care who directs the film or what's in it so long as it ticks off a few boxes. He instead pays people to pay people to care.

At this point Iger probably just wants to cross the finish line. This is his last year in the big chair. By the time 2020 rolls around he'll be pushing 70 years old and was already involved with the federal government at the same time. So long as there's no massive catastrophe he can't blame on a studio head or other executive it's all the same to him.

[Metahuman1]

I've heard of him thinking about governorship, but not presidency. But even that's just vague rumblings. I doubt he'd actually run at this stage.

Either way, you're overthinking it on a fundamental level. Bob Iger is a hands off individual, he doesn't micromanage because he runs the megacorp that owns other megacorps and he has about thirty more movies to worry about. He doesn't care who directs the film or what's in it so long as it ticks off a few boxes. He instead pays people to pay people to care.

At this point Iger probably just wants to cross the finish line. This is his last year in the big chair. By the time 2020 rolls around he'll be pushing 70 years old and was already involved with the federal government at the same time. So long as there's no massive catastrophe he can't blame on a studio head or other executive it's all the same to him.

It would be nice if your right. I really hope your right, and that someone else will come in who will have made a note that these yahoo's are blowing it on a massive, massive financial investment that was meant to be a hugh money maker for decades and is shaping up to not be that.

I guess in a year or two we will know for certain.

[Jeivar]

I just want to ask real quick: Just WHY is it so important that Rey's parents be special? Why? Honestly why? I don't get it. I LIKED that she's a nobody who then becomes a big deal. The Star Wars galaxy is a huge place. Why do people insist that one or two bloodlines should always decide its fate?

Also, "big revelation about parents" was already the biggest deal about The Empire Strikes Back. Repeating it in The Last Jedi would just have been lame in my opinion.

[Metahuman1]

I just want to ask real quick: Just WHY is it so important that Rey's parents be special? Why? Honestly why? I don't get it. I LIKED that she's a nobody who then becomes a big deal. The Star Wars galaxy is a huge place. Why do people insist that one or two bloodlines should always decide its fate?

Also, "big revelation about parents" was already the biggest deal about The Empire Strikes Back. Repeating it in The Last Jedi would just have been lame in my opinion.

In a competently written and directed movie, not even a good one, just a competent one, it wouldn't have been.


But, because it was in a bad movie, that came after a movie that was given a lot of slack that we now know was not deserved for a lot of thing, and it was actively doing it to take a dump on the audience of not just this movie but anyone who liked the previous movies and especially the first 3 movies, it is now a big deal.

Had we had a time skip and Luke actually had time elapse were in we know for a fact that he got down to serious training with her on how to fight and use the force, and him mentioning something about various things that came together for her last time that had to have been will of the living force or something, or Snoke mentioning he explicitly was mucking with Ren through the force to keep him from killing her last movie because he wanted to test her to confirm she was what he suspected, it wouldn't be. Hell, if that effort had been put it, it would be welcome.


Instead, it's revealed, because it was done to appease the critics and to give the middle finger at the fans and to try and be a cheap and easy way to deflect actually legitimate criticism's of the rest of the franchise.

[Jayngfet]

I just want to ask real quick: Just WHY is it so important that Rey's parents be special? Why? Honestly why? I don't get it. I LIKED that she's a nobody who then becomes a big deal. The Star Wars galaxy is a huge place. Why do people insist that one or two bloodlines should always decide its fate?

Also, "big revelation about parents" was already the biggest deal about The Empire Strikes Back. Repeating it in The Last Jedi would just have been lame in my opinion.

Because 7 makes it a big deal. Abrams built up that whole movie based on that mystery. He included the only flashback sequence in the entire saga just to underscore it. He had Han and Maz have a cryptic conversation about Rey's identity to imply there's more than we see. He worked very hard to sell that not only is this a big deal to Rey, but that her parents were a big deal to other people, including main characters who treated her with greater importance than they otherwise should(such as sending her off alone with Chewie and not even a full crew for the Falcon, like someone else who knew Luke or was more involved with the Resistance).

8 isn't any better. When Luke tries to ask who Rey is, it's brushed aside as a joke even though the dialogue makes it clear Rey has things going on that are not normal for a force user, but by that dialogue implicitly somehow connected to her origins since they're the only two topics of that conversation.

Rey didn't need to be a Skywalker. Her parents didn't need to be Jedi or warlords or whatever. But you can't just build up a plot thread for two films and then decide it was never important. You already established it was. They had to be somebody to someone besides Rey, otherwise none of that previous narrative or it's implications make any sense.

[khadgar567]

you know there is a couple of ways to save the star wars series from the rut it's in and its lot lot more simple
first give guys build the cartoon series green light for animated adaptation of first and second trilogy . with this at least younger generation have some reason to watch series. and you have the f ing chance to fix the dangling plot holes in the plot.
second give some good gaming company rites to create the new republic era game so there is reason and material to expend the story with out robbing graves.
if we look in recent past before the third trilogy started we have the whole kotor I and kotor II as well as the old republic mmo to create our stories. you know the whole sith order can worth couple of trilogies just to introduce the inner workings as how and why they fight with jedi. give us some datomeer witches and Darth lord as hero and watch the ratings sky rocket again like when the series day viewed. people are sick of Luke idiot walkers story give us the ezra brigger and his marry band of rebels instead snoke and his imperial troopers.

[Clertar]

I hope it keeps the spirit of TLJ. Wrap up the Jedi-themed trilogy of trilogies, and move on to the new one with the Force taking the back seat and exploring the galaxy without the focus on sci-fi samurai and sci-fi fencing academies.

[Sapphire Guard]

I just want to ask real quick: Just WHY is it so important that Rey's parents be special? Why? Honestly why? I don't get it. I LIKED that she's a nobody who then becomes a big deal. The Star Wars galaxy is a huge place. Why do people insist that one or two bloodlines should always decide its fate?

Also, "big revelation about parents" was already the biggest deal about The Empire Strikes Back. Repeating it in The Last Jedi would just have been lame in my opinion.

It isn't. But pretending that Force sensitivity not requiring a lineage is new or revolutionary is misrepresenting the previous Star Wars films. It's calling out the previous films for something that wasn't in them.

[khadgar567]

I hope it keeps the spirit of TLJ. Wrap up the Jedi-themed trilogy of trilogies, and move on to the new one with the Force taking the back seat and exploring the galaxy without the focus on sci-fi samurai and sci-fi fencing academies.
though luck mate though luck. with ideas likes TLJ we might get space kunoichi love story with dash angsty teen melodrama then trilogy about space exploration to next galaxy.

[Metahuman1]

So apparently Abrams is now also on record stating that the horrible reactions people had and negative criticism of The Last Jedi will have precisely 0 bearing on anything to do with episode 9 what so ever.





I am beginning to question weather I will even go see this movie.

[zimmerwald1915]

So apparently Abrams is now also on record stating that the horrible reactions people had and negative criticism of The Last Jedi will have precisely 0 bearing on anything to do with episode 9 what so ever.
Good. Let him follow his vision, such as it is, and let the product succeed or fail.

[Wookieetank]

So apparently Abrams is now also on record stating that the horrible reactions people had and negative criticism of The Last Jedi will have precisely 0 bearing on anything to do with episode 9 what so ever.


Its not like burning the past to the ground will doom you to repeat it or anything, oh wait...

[Scowling Dragon]

Its not like burning the past to the ground will doom you to repeat it or anything, oh wait...

Well we forgot it in 8. Killed it if we had too. :smallwink:

Ultimatly I would be more respectful of JJs vision if he wasn't such a derivative hack.

[Jayngfet]

I hope it keeps the spirit of TLJ. Wrap up the Jedi-themed trilogy of trilogies, and move on to the new one with the Force taking the back seat and exploring the galaxy without the focus on sci-fi samurai and sci-fi fencing academies.

...so make it like basically every other space opera?

I'm always confused when people want to see Star Wars become what basically every show after Star Wars is. You have that story in about ten billion incarnations. You have that story already in anthology format. You're about to have it twice.

[Peelee]

Kashyyke (spelled wrong because I'm too lazy to look it up)

3 Y's. Kashyyyk. It's Shyriiwook that always gets me. I either put double Y instead of I, or get them right but switch their placement before I invariably google it.

[Jeivar]

So apparently Abrams is now also on record stating that the horrible reactions people had and negative criticism of The Last Jedi will have precisely 0 bearing on anything to do with episode 9 what so ever.

Horrible reactions? Negative criticism? The group I went to the theatre with absolutely loved The Last Jedi. Everyone in my social circle loved it. Most reviews I've seen are very positive. From what I can tell the loudness of the negativity comes from a particular kind of fan entitlement at TLJ's messing with the SW formula, and the direction they decided to take Luke.

[Jeivar]

Because 7 makes it a big deal. Abrams built up that whole movie based on that mystery.

Did he, though?


He included the only flashback sequence in the entire saga just to underscore it.

Rey flashbacked to her worst memory: Being abandoned. It underscored her issues, and loneliness, and how much it hurt her. And just made it clear that she had indeed been abandoned. At no point during that scene did I think "Oh man, this will be important later!"


He had Han and Maz have a cryptic conversation about Rey's identity to imply there's more than we see.

Cryptic? Maz asked who she was, and then the movie cuts away rather than bother having Han tell us things we already know. It's natural to ask about people you're just getting to know, especially given that Maz could sense she had Force potential.


like someone else who knew Luke or was more involved with the Resistance).

Leia was kind of busy running things.

Your disappointment is a result of you reading to much into simple things, because "No Luke, I AM your father" has made us expect dramatic twists from Star Wars movies.

[Scowling Dragon]

Did he, though?
Yes. He literally makes ted talks about how mysteries are his thing.

It was pretty intentional.

Maybe you didn't, but if a ton of other people did, that speaks to most likely YOU not getting the implication of mystery.

From what I can tell the loudness of the negativity comes from a particular kind of fan entitlement at TLJ's messing with the SW formula, and the direction they decided to take Luke.

That's a great way to just brush off any criticism. The security that anybody who dislikes what you like is just one of those entitled fanboys. Very snug, and comforting.

[zimmerwald1915]

Rey flashbacked to her worst memory: Being abandoned. It underscored her issues, and loneliness, and how much it hurt her. And just made it clear that she had indeed been abandoned. At no point during that scene did I think "Oh man, this will be important later!"
The content of the flashback is almost beside the point. What's exceptional about the flashback is that it's a flashback. Up until that point, Star Wars had hewed to a directing style wherein everything we saw was present in the world of the film, not memories, thoughts, or visions (obviously film is a shadow play that deals in visions and illusions, but put that aside for now).

That automatically sets the flashback apart, and makes it significant. That significance is then transferred onto the scene's content.

[Wookieetank]

The content of the flashback is almost beside the point. What's exceptional about the flashback is that it's a flashback. Up until that point, Star Wars had hewed to a directing style wherein everything we saw was present in the world of the film, not memories, thoughts, or visions (obviously film is a shadow play that deals in visions and illusions, but put that aside for now).

That automatically sets the flashback apart, and makes it significant. That significance is then transferred onto the scene's content.

Well part of the significance of it was that it was Luke's lightsaber (and not just his, the one he inherited from Anakin), that set off the flashback. If her history wasn't important, then why use a lightsaber with so much history behind it?

Also, RotS uses flashfowards, so this wasn't the first time that a non-current time was shown.

[Peelee]

Well part of the significance of it was that it was Luke's lightsaber (and not just his, the one he inherited from Anakin), that set off the flashback. If her history wasn't important, then why use a lightsaber with so much history behind it?

Why did Luke not have a similar sensation?

[Wookieetank]

Why did Luke not have a similar sensation?

Well Luke had cut himself completely off from the force at the time (according to Luke anyways) so that seems a legit enough reason to me.

[Peelee]

Well Luke had cut himself completely off from the force at the time (according to Luke anyways) so that seems a legit enough reason to me.

I mean when he was 18, and visited Old Ben's home.

[Wookieetank]

I mean when he was 18, and visited Old Ben's home.

George Lucas was young and dumb and didn't know he'd eventually have a 6 movie series actually made?

[Peelee]

George Lucas was young and dumb and didn't know he'd eventually have a 6 movie series actually made?

Imean, yeah, but in-universe it doesn't make much sense.

[Wookieetank]

Imean, yeah, but in-universe it doesn't make much sense.

Well he did manage to not kill himself or Obi-wan when igniting and then proceeding to play with it, so maybe the force was too busy on damage control to be concerned with prophetic false leads.

[Zevox]

I just want to ask real quick: Just WHY is it so important that Rey's parents be special? Why? Honestly why? I don't get it. I LIKED that she's a nobody who then becomes a big deal. The Star Wars galaxy is a huge place. Why do people insist that one or two bloodlines should always decide its fate?

Also, "big revelation about parents" was already the biggest deal about The Empire Strikes Back. Repeating it in The Last Jedi would just have been lame in my opinion.
I agree with you, personally. That's on the very short list of things that I think The Last Jedi did perfectly right, and I would hope it isn't undone going forward.

But it's something that upset a lot of the people who were very happy with The Force Awakens and, apparently, wanted to see its plot threads taken to their logical conclusions even though that would just lead to the ST continuing to be a total rehash of the originals. Since I'd expect Abrams to be more sympathetic to their criticisms than to that of those who feel there are much bigger, more fundamental problems with the films, I won't be too surprised if it does get undone.


I am beginning to question weather I will even go see this movie.
I decided right after seeing TLJ that I won't, unless it gets surprisingly good word-of-mouth reactions from others who felt as I do about TFA and TLJ, personally. Why bother otherwise? I don't want to see more of these villains, and while I don't have major problems with the new heroes they keep not giving them anything interesting to do or developing them much.


Horrible reactions? Negative criticism? The group I went to the theatre with absolutely loved The Last Jedi. Everyone in my social circle loved it. Most reviews I've seen are very positive. From what I can tell the loudness of the negativity comes from a particular kind of fan entitlement at TLJ's messing with the SW formula, and the direction they decided to take Luke.
Luke being completely out-of-character is one major element of it, yes, but there's plenty more. A friend of mine considers it on the same level of quality as the prequels due to all of the logical problems with the plot and presentation (such as the whole chase setup not making sense on a basic level because, among other things, nothing prevented the First Order from surrounding the Resistance ships by having some of theirs micro-jump in front of and otherwise around it), in addition to how they treated Luke. I've also seen several fan reviews from people who say they still liked it on the whole, but would consider it among the weakest Star Wars films, often citing things like Snoke being unceremoniously offed with little explanation who he was or the Rey's parents thing among their reasons for that, and often also agree with harsher critics about some (though not all) of their criticisms. Personally, I'd largely agree with stronger critics like my friend, but would also cite as my biggest issue at this point that the sequels have no good villains - everybody but Snoke comes across as incompetent and incapable of being a real threat to the heroes (and that despite the fact that TLJ ends with the heroes devastated!), and Snoke was killed off. And honestly, I don't even really want him back, since I don't want the films to rehash the OT, and Snoke was blatantly just a Palpatine rip-off.

It's definitely gotten a much worse reception than The Force Awakens or Rogue One did, no question there. Probably not quite as badly received as the prequels, but that's a low bar.

[Anonymouswizard]

...so make it like basically every other space opera?

As a big reader of Space Opera, this isn't quite true. There's large differences between a force-less Star Wars story and Lensman or Foundation, let alone more modern stuff like Revelation Space or the Commonwealth Saga.

Now I get that the Force is essentially the big 'unique' thing about Star Wars, but claiming every other space opera is essentially 'Star Wars, but without the Force' it's massively simplifying a diverse genre.


I'm always confused when people want to see Star Wars become what basically every show after Star Wars is. You have that story in about ten billion incarnations. You have that story already in anthology format. You're about to have it twice.

Honestly? I don't get the point from another direction. I don't get why people want to change Star Wars, when there's almost certainly a story out there that does exactly what they want.

We have dark, bleak space opera. We have happy utopian space opera. We have 'the fall of the Roman Empire in space' space opera. We have communist hippie space opera. We have space opera lacking FTL anything. We have militaristic space opera. We have space opera almost every colour of the rainbow.

Why does Star Wars have to grow up? It's fun. I go to Start Wars for fun, not deep political commentary or a dark depressing story.

I'm reading a book where only one human culture has the ability to build starships. It's a plot point that they stopped doing so a century ago, and have only started building new ones at the beginning of the book. For everybody else starships are a rate and irreplaceable commodity. It's a great setting, and one I want Star Wars to be completely different to. Because Star Wars tells a different kind of story.

[Friv]

That's a great way to just brush off any criticism. The security that anybody who dislikes what you like is just one of those entitled fanboys. Very snug, and comforting.

I mean, when the entitled fanboys are screaming in rage that Abrams isn't going to take their opinions to heart and totally restore the series to its pristine levels, yeah, that's a pretty great way to brush off those critiques.

I mean, The Last Jedi wasn't perfect, and it had a lot of issues. But it was never going to be Empire Strikes Back. And for all the people ranting about the franchise being driven straight into the ground (often, but not always, with complaints about identity politics and the supposed left-wing propaganda of Disney, which you can see in this very thread) it still made literally over a billion dollars.

Did it make TFA money? Hell, no. It was never going to make TFA money. TFA was making money based on being the first new Star Wars in ages, and being heralded as the first good Star Wars in our generation. But this doomsaying, frankly, is ridiculous.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean, when the entitled fanboys are screaming in rage that Abrams isn't going to take their opinions to heart and totally restore the series to its pristine levels, yeah, that's a pretty great way to brush off those critiques.

You know its funny. George Lucas had so much ire pushed towards him for isolating his opinions and ignoring others feedback, for years and years and years.
And suddenly those very same people that called George Lucas out for his narcissism are suddenly all evil ungrateful undeserving fanboys the second Star Wars is purchased by Disney. :smallannoyed:

And using money as an example of a good franchise is a terrible idea. Resident Evil Ran for 6 movies, and was generally always hated by the fans and only grew worse and worse with evermoreso BASIC and gigantic flaws in it over and over, plot holes became pits, became chasms and became fractures in the crust of the films (A Neutral Force gets retconned into an evil force and gets retconned into a Good force in the span of 3 movies with no explanation and nobody even remembering). And it made a TON of money right until the very end.

[Mechalich]

I mean, The Last Jedi wasn't perfect, and it had a lot of issues. But it was never going to be Empire Strikes Back. And for all the people ranting about the franchise being driven straight into the ground (often, but not always, with complaints about identity politics and the supposed left-wing propaganda of Disney, which you can see in this very thread) it still made literally over a billion dollars.

Did it make TFA money? Hell, no. It was never going to make TFA money. TFA was making money based on being the first new Star Wars in ages, and being heralded as the first good Star Wars in our generation. But this doomsaying, frankly, is ridiculous.

The Last Jedi made less than it was projected to make to the tune of around 200 million dollars. This can mostly be attributed to its failure to hold at the box office over the long term. Between the release of TLJ and this past weekend's release of Black Panther there was no traditional blockbuster in place to challenge TLJ at the box office. Despite this, it rapidly dropped out of the top five and even the top ten domestically. In particular it got absolutely walloped down the stretch by Jumanji.

This is a key crack in the wall that has protected Star Wars films from competition. Subsequent to TLJ's failure to hold Deadpool 2 had it's released date moved to be one week before the release of Solo. That's a blatant gauntlet thrown down against Star Wars as a franchise.

There are other issues too. There's growing issues of a fall in the all-important toy sales numbers for Star Wars (the toys make more money than the films overall, making them the single most important part of the franchise). Also, there are issues in the video game arena. Battlefront 2 was a disaster, SWTOR is slowly dying, and there's been pretty much nothing else. This has led speculation that Disney is considering pulling the license from EA. That might be the right move but having to even contemplate that step shows that recent years have been a disaster in a critically important market sphere. Even Rebels, one of the real recent bright spots, is coming to an end.

If Solo is bad or does badly, and there's a distinct possibility of both those things happening, then 2018 is going to go down as a disastrous year for the Star Wars franchise.

[Jayngfet]

Jumanji is a factor you can't overstate at this juncture. TFA and RO were both blockbusters who busted every block in the universe. Every single other major film got the hell out of the way by premiering well before or well after. The only movies that dared to compete were either fundamentally different(usually an animated kids film done on a low budget), or so minor they're barely worth noting.

Jumanji was like the third or fourth Dwayne Johnson movie of the year. It was basically a big budget reboot nobody had faith in. But now it's basically confirmed to get a sequel and the studio wants it to compete directly against 9, and is visibly throwing down that gauntlet. And why shouldn't they? It was a movie that got better reviews from the audience and had better legs. The Last Jedi basically died after the opening once you factor out long weekends.

And if Sony is confident their movie can face them head on you bet your ass WB, Columbia, and Paramount will be thinking the same thing now. Star Wars went from this big impressive thing nobody wanted to challenge to just another franchise overnight.

Having to directly compete like a normal movie will shear hundreds of millions off the final take. 9 could be the best of the trilogy, or even the best SW movie ever, and it could still have the lowest revenue of the three.

[Metahuman1]

Horrible reactions? Negative criticism? The group I went to the theatre with absolutely loved The Last Jedi. Everyone in my social circle loved it. Most reviews I've seen are very positive. From what I can tell the loudness of the negativity comes from a particular kind of fan entitlement at TLJ's messing with the SW formula, and the direction they decided to take Luke.

The movie had how much money spent marketing it for how long a span of time?

Critics were being given early screenings and coming out giving it 98-100% ratings on Rotten Tomato's and glowing reviews for what, a month, six weeks, longer, before the actual damn movie was open to the public? (Critics whom can pretty much be summed up as a: having a fincancial incentive to do so, B: Having a political one, C: being of the extreme elitist snobbery that deride the original trilogy for years as being junk because it wasn't Citizen Cain and all movies should be shamed for that for not being that, or D: Some combo there of.)

And yet, the movies toy sales are in the tank, because no one wants to have merch related to this movie.

And yet, the actual reviews from fan on Rotten Tomato's and other such sites and from the overall online reviewer scene have trashing the movie since it was made available to the public at large.

And yet, like Batman Vs. Superman's original theatrical cut, it was the movie everyone wanted to see, and based on the sheer lack of sales putting the movie 200 Million, give or take a touch, below the projected number it needed to hit, it was also the movie that once they'd seen it once, no one wanted to see again.




If messing with the formula was a problem, Rogue One would be eaten alive, and it wasn't. It's still held up as a good movie. And a good Star Wars movie.

TLJ is hated because it is entirely awful for reasons easy to diagnose if you look into the people who were in charge and pay attention to what comes out of there mouths vs. what goes on screen when there at the helm of the project. It is hated because it went out of it's way to earn that hate. And it's more then just money saying it, it's the majority of people who saw the damn thing and stated so afterword's saying it.







Friv :


According to your logic Every Single Michal Bay Transformers or Ninja Turtles movie is objectively better then Citizen Cain.

You'll forgive me if I don't take your logic to hold much in the way of water that being the case.




(Aside: It was on track to make MORE then Force Awakens money, this was the much hyped teased for 2+ Years return of Luke Freaking Skywalker, riding a very positive wave form the fans and audience's at large after the last 2 movies and a few seasons of a successful animated series. If the movie had just been competent it would have made FA money, if it had been genuinely good it would have made FA money and probably more, especially long term. It wasn't, and it isn't going to do that ever now because it wasn't good and wasn't even decent, it was lousy. )

[Mechalich]

And yet, the movies toy sales are in the tank, because no one wants to have merch related to this movie.


I'd also offer that the toy sales are suffering because TLJ and the ST generally has failed to produce cool new designs and they have a limited supply of characters to use for action figures. Say what you like about the PT, but Lucas churned out new designs and new characters like nothing else to supply toys. Hey, let's show the whole Jedi Council in a wide shot. Bam! A dozen action figures. The arena scene in AotC is stupid, but someone sold a whole bunch of Acklays, Nexus, and Reeks off of that. There were new starships in every film, a horde of ground vehicles and other stuff.

The ST has mostly recycled old stuff. Still using the Millennium Falcon. Still using TIEs and X-Wings. Very few new characters with minor roles, especially on the First Order side - I think there are less than ten First Order characters who speak at all in TLJ. The Dreadnaught captain who gets blow up in the opening sequence is the fifth most notable First Order character in two movies.

I mean, honestly, the big merchandising tie-in for TLJ was the Porgs - a creature they created because they chose to film at a UNESCO site that serves as a massive puffin colony and they couldn't digitally edit all the puffins out of shots on Skellig Michael (having been there, I totally understand, they're everywhere). The problem is, actual puffins are cuter than Porgs.

You can say what you want about the merits of Rian Johnson's approach with TLJ, but whatever it's critical merits it absolutely was not conductive to providing the sort of flash-frame moments that make 8-12 year olds go 'that was so cool!' so that you can sell action figures and LEGOs.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm trying to think of what new toys appeared in Empire and Jedi now. There was Boba Fett, Lando, Yoda, Lobot, snow troopers, and probably some more Cloud City characters, as well as Slave One and the Snowspeeders, in Empire. Jedi had the Ewoks, most of the rebel fleet, the speeder bikes, Admiral Akbar and several other rebel characters, plus the Emperor himself. While not as overly stuffed as the PT (I still remember having a 'appeared in one Jedi Council shot' action figure) there were still plenty of new merchandising opportunities in the films.

In TLJ we have sought differences on the costumes the main characters wear (but if I have one Finn figure already why do I want another unless it's a major change), the Rebel Cruiser (which looks boring), the Porgs, these new snowspeeders, and the red guard people. So some new action figures, but not really enough for kids to always be wanting more.

[tomandtish]

Having grown up as a die-hard Star Wars fan, my predictions for Episode 9 are a resounding "Meh". because with the exception of Rogue One (which I actually enjoyed somewhat), nothing has really grabbed me about the new films. They aren't doing a good job of making me want to CARE about anybody, even the old returning guard....



...
- If Solo tanks and gets eaten by a combination of Deadpool 2 (premiering a week prior) and the various blockbusters premiering in June the non-Disney studios will throw up a wall of counterprogramming against Episode IX. It is likely that one of these films will star The Rock.

In 2025 all films star The Rock..... :smallbiggrin:

[Mightymosy]

Having grown up as a die-hard Star Wars fan, my predictions for Episode 9 are a resounding "Meh". because with the exception of Rogue One (which I actually enjoyed somewhat), nothing has really grabbed me about the new films. They aren't doing a good job of making me want to CARE about anybody, even the old returning guard....




In 2025 all films star The Rock..... :smallbiggrin:

I see what you're saying.
Similar here.

The old guard is just portrayed as a*holes or failures at this point time: Han and Leia supposedly have spoiled Kylo and their relationship failed. And what does Leia actually accomplish? "Lead" another air strike to yet another death star. Yawn. Next movie, she does almost nothing. Double yawn.
And Luke. Well, appearantly killing nephews is now what Jedis do to save the galaxy.

Rey startet out as an interesting character and quickly became the Mary Sue everyone loved or hated to discuss about, and we also are not clear what her agenda really is: in TFA she wanted to see her parents again, in TLJ she appearantly doesn't even know who they were, and well, it's not really important after all, right?

But to be honest I personally really liked Finn in TFA, and also somewhat in TLJ (although that movie slaughtered a lot of the potential). Of all the characters in the Sequels, I care about Finn the most.
Because he is relatable.

He is trying to do the good thing, but he has to suffer for it.
Watch the original movies to see why suffering is important to get likable characters in a drama.:smallsmile:

Or watch Rogue One. The two main protagonists have what writers call a character arc. One fights with himself for the evil he has done in the name of good, and tries to redeem himself in the end, the other has lost her dad and still tries to do what's right in the galaxy. In the end both give their lives so that others may have a chance at freedom.
Similar as the original movies, if you ask me.
Heroes.

[Jayngfet]

Heroes.

There's your problem. Heroes get things done, and if things are done and completed you can't have endless war and without endless war how will you have the endless spinoffs that justify two more anthology movies and two separate trilogies?

One of Rian Johnson's explicit goals with TLJ was to put the dynamic where it needed to be for SW to be where Disney wanted it to be. This means that all of the Original Trilogy's actual accomplishments have to be undone, so they can keep selling you X-Wings vs TIE fighters and Red and Blue lightsabers until you get sick of them.

You can have spinoff characters be heroes provided they don't actually change the status quo and sell some action figures along the way.

[Metahuman1]

Which is 1: I suspect an excuse from Mr. Johnson to again try to brush off criticism that is perfectly on point and he knows it, but doesn't want to hear/acknowledge/deal with it. And 2: Incredibly stupid.

There is a much easier way to do this. You move around the timeline. Or you move to smaller areas for spinoff's. Find a neat planet and do a movie or two mostly confined to that. We've seen this work in The Clone Wars and on Rebels, it would work for the spin off and stand alone movies. As for sequels, literally just don't be afraid to move the timeline up. Heck, get more into the theme that Evil must always be opposed or it will win, and even when it looses, given time, someone/something else will take up it's mantle, and the that must be opposed. But that just cause you keep having to oppose it doesn't mean letting it win is acceptable, or indeed, that goods victory's don't actually MEAN anything!


This is not that hard, there are kids in highschool or college who can and do do this.

[Jayngfet]

Which is 1: I suspect an excuse from Mr. Johnson to again try to brush off criticism that is perfectly on point and he knows it, but doesn't want to hear/acknowledge/deal with it. And 2: Incredibly stupid.

There is a much easier way to do this. You move around the timeline. Or you move to smaller areas for spinoff's. Find a neat planet and do a movie or two mostly confined to that. We've seen this work in The Clone Wars and on Rebels, it would work for the spin off and stand alone movies. As for sequels, literally just don't be afraid to move the timeline up. Heck, get more into the theme that Evil must always be opposed or it will win, and even when it looses, given time, someone/something else will take up it's mantle, and the that must be opposed. But that just cause you keep having to oppose it doesn't mean letting it win is acceptable, or indeed, that goods victory's don't actually MEAN anything!


This is not that hard, there are kids in highschool or college who can and do do this.

I don't think you get it.

They don't just want to sell you Star Wars as a concept. They want you to always buy super Iconic X-Wings and TIE Fighters and Red and Blue Lightsabers. Hence why despite all the snark the only spinoffs we've seen are just more prequels and the only games and TV series are OT focused. Even stuff set before then has the empire roll out TIE fighters and Stormtroopers like a month after the prequel trilogy ended.

Marvel vary's things up by having a bunch of new heroes and settings, but this isn't that. Even as we move into unconfirmed territory it's all going to just be locked into concurrent trilogies. As rebels ends the only things we know suggest that Filoni's next show will probably just be the Resistance with more X-Wings and TIE-Fighters and red and blue lightsabers.

Yes. KOTOR had ships with S-Foils and Jedi, but those weren't literally X-and-A-Wings and the Jedi looked and acted differently enough to be recognizably dissimilar. It has to be exactly as it was.

[Metahuman1]

I don't think you get it.

They don't just want to sell you Star Wars as a concept. They want you to always buy super Iconic X-Wings and TIE Fighters and Red and Blue Lightsabers. Hence why despite all the snark the only spinoffs we've seen are just more prequels and the only games and TV series are OT focused. Even stuff set before then has the empire roll out TIE fighters and Stormtroopers like a month after the prequel trilogy ended.

Marvel vary's things up by having a bunch of new heroes and settings, but this isn't that. Even as we move into unconfirmed territory it's all going to just be locked into concurrent trilogies. As rebels ends the only things we know suggest that Filoni's next show will probably just be the Resistance with more X-Wings and TIE-Fighters and red and blue lightsabers.

Yes. KOTOR had ships with S-Foils and Jedi, but those weren't literally X-and-A-Wings and the Jedi looked and acted differently enough to be recognizably dissimilar. It has to be exactly as it was.

I get it, I just think it's idiotic.



Marvel has proven that the need to experiment and do somewhat different stuff with different movies and there flavoring is important. Rebels and Clone Wars proved in a vacuum this can be done with Star Wars successfully.

We could have a deal were certain core things remain the same, say, bad guys use red light sabers, but you can also have different stuff. A political thriller on Coresant or dealing with The Banking Clan, a movie about a Mandalorian mercenary, so on.

The galaxy is a big enough place and the potential for the timeline is large enough that you can get away with doing different stuff in different places at different times so that things don't get stale. And you can still do OT do overs in the Episode Movies as long as you give a damn and remember time can pass and new things can come up, and that Shockley, just cause someone pulled something off fifty or seventy five or one hundred years ago, doesn't mean someone else won't later have to step up and do it again, or do more, against similar but not the same foes.

They could have had what they wanted with out pissing off hugh amounts of general movie goers and fans alike. But now they've pissed that chance away, for the sake of aiming for that chance, they claim.





Assuming that's really what they were aiming for, there incompetent beyond forgiveness. (Note: I am not convinced that's really the case, but for sake of the point and of discussion let's say for just a moment they are.)

[Anonymouswizard]

I'll admit that I've not watched Rebels due to just net being interested in it. I wanted something that wasn't roughly OT in time period, because I'm a bit bored with heroic rebels.

A series set shortly after E6 where we still have OT technology, but following a group of Imperials trying to stop the Empire from falling apart? That's interesting to me. Unfortunately we now know that such a series would have to end with the Empire falling apart so it can become the First Order, not with Thrawn appearing to lead the Empire to glory. Despite it sometimes being silly Legends canon did at least have things change in more but name (the Empire is weakened but moves towards being a more benevolent state, the New Republic is created and is not destroyed by a new superweapon, then the galaxy gets invaded and the dynamic changes again), I'd much prefer a series in the Legends continuity to another series treading ground which is relatively safe.

[Mechalich]

I'll admit that I've not watched Rebels due to just net being interested in it. I wanted something that wasn't roughly OT in time period, because I'm a bit bored with heroic rebels.

A series set shortly after E6 where we still have OT technology, but following a group of Imperials trying to stop the Empire from falling apart? That's interesting to me. Unfortunately we now know that such a series would have to end with the Empire falling apart so it can become the First Order, not with Thrawn appearing to lead the Empire to glory. Despite it sometimes being silly Legends canon did at least have things change in more but name (the Empire is weakened but moves towards being a more benevolent state, the New Republic is created and is not destroyed by a new superweapon, then the galaxy gets invaded and the dynamic changes again), I'd much prefer a series in the Legends continuity to another series treading ground which is relatively safe.

Well, Legends is all but dead with the exception of SWTOR which is slowly being converted into a shambling zombie due to a lack of financial support (for Star Wars fans who haven't played through at least the F2P parts, now would be a good time to do that). Disney won't be bringing it back. They're committed to this new continuity which is not good. The whole Empire converts to First Order thing while the Republic does nothing is a poor story and killing Snoke the way they did in TLJ massively undercuts any attempt to do a 'rise of Snoke' series.

Disney could try to do its own Old Republic plotline but this is probably a bad idea since it would almost certainly be worse than the existing KOTOR-SWTOR continuity (which is some of the very best Legends material). What is ripe for expansion is the revised plotline of the Old Republic's 'founding' around 1000 BBY. While Darth Bane remains canon, having appeared in TCW, the Darth Bane novels are no longer canon and the history of the New Sith Wars has been erased. That story could be completely retold in an exciting way with all new Jedi heroes and Sith villains.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

There's your problem. Heroes get things done, and if things are done and completed you can't have endless war and without endless war how will you have the endless spinoffs that justify two more anthology movies and two separate trilogies?

One of Rian Johnson's explicit goals with TLJ was to put the dynamic where it needed to be for SW to be where Disney wanted it to be. This means that all of the Original Trilogy's actual accomplishments have to be undone, so they can keep selling you X-Wings vs TIE fighters and Red and Blue lightsabers until you get sick of them.

You can have spinoff characters be heroes provided they don't actually change the status quo and sell some action figures along the way.

I know history talk is taboo here but:

-the war would have ended the exact same way if our most decorated soldier was ever born or not

-there were French, Polish, Greek and even Italian heroes also. Sometimes the guy who helps hold the pass so a few more civilians can escape is a hero

-It is usually the political figures who really change the course of history. Churchill or Lindbergh starting a war with Stalin, the world would have been different. Would it have made them more or less heroic? I dunno.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy)

[Scowling Dragon]

I know history talk is taboo here but:
-the war would have ended the exact same way if our most decorated soldier was ever born or not

And the average soldier doesn't hit a single target in a ground battle. Id say there are actual real-world heroes that saved the world (But that mainly has to do with Nuclear Equipment).

But that doesn't make for good literature.

[Hopeless]

So why not plan accordingly?
Episode 7 was the search for Luke it ends with him found but the First Order blows up the capital using Loyalist Senators (to Snoke) to seize power meaning Snoke has won without a costly war!

Episode 8 (what should have happened) Holdo is a surviving NR Admiral sent to contact Leia to locate Luke since Rey has gone and the attack on the Raddus leaves Holdo in charge she sends Finn on an effectively suicide mission knowing he'll be caught to divert the FO's attention.
Snoke uses Finn to draw Rey out of hiding ala ESB but we learn from Luke she was trained by a Jedi Survivor on Jakku and that Kylo was taught by Leia not Luke with Snoke deliberately hamstringing Kylo's training so he doesn't turn on him.
Finn however unexpectedly succeeds mostly due to Phasma revealed as Rey's Aunt and DJ playing both sides to sneak Rose & BB-8 aboard.
Holdo redeems herself with her sacrifice revealing the whole time the FO was chasing her remote controlling all the ships alone meaning the FO didn't notice the Resistance leaving those ships whilst heading through various planetary obstacles on their route why only drop off at one world when there are multiple possible hiding places?!

Kylo kills Snoke we learn Snoke was just the host body for the entity in charge finally the Emperor has a body suitable for his return!

Episode 9: Luke returns to face the reborn Emperor!

What we're likely to get?

Haven't the foggiest it really doesn't look good!

[Sapphire Guard]

So, can someone (probably Hamish) confirm something for me? Wookie(e)pedia tells me that the Holdo ram, in addition to to the Supremacy, also destroyed 18 Resurgent class SDs. Can anyone confirm that? Because if so... that's a big chunk of fleet.

[Devonix]

Snoke served his purpose in the story. That purpose was to get Ben into position to be the big bad of the story. Snoke faking his death, or just being a puppet ruins that.

[Mightymosy]

So why not plan accordingly?
[...]

I think the most obvious flaw of the Sequel Trilogy is that they didn't plan a sh*t.

They gave three movies to three different directors and called it a day.
And these directors did their best do impose their own glorious vision onto their movie with utter disregard to everyone else who came before or after them).

You know that would really surprise me? If someone found a document with a detailed plan for episode 7-9 which dated before episode 7.
Would certainly be interesting.

Whatever flaws the Prequels had, at least you could see there was an overarching idea behind it.

[Wookieetank]

Whatever flaws the Prequels had, at least you could see there was an overarching idea behind it.

Indeed, and even though we knew what the end result was gonna be (Darth Vader), seeing the how of it was what kept it (somewhat) interesting. The prequels also made proper use of time skips, where right now in the ST we have what, a week of time that has gone by? Makes the scope seem much smaller with how quickly everything is happening.

[Devonix]

Indeed, and even though we knew what the end result was gonna be (Darth Vader), seeing the how of it was what kept it (somewhat) interesting. The prequels also made proper use of time skips, where right now in the ST we have what, a week of time that has gone by? Makes the scope seem much smaller with how quickly everything is happening.

My biggest problem with the Prequels is that they actually didn't plan stuff. They famously shot without scripts, and the production staff constantly complained to Lucas about him not telling anyone if there was a plan funnily enough .

The problem with him knowing where he wanted to get to but having no idea how to get there, and his constant course correcting to fix stuff after the fact.

[Scowling Dragon]

My biggest problem with the Prequels is that they actually didn't plan stuff. They famously shot without scripts, and the production staff constantly complained to Lucas about him not telling anyone if there was a plan funnily enough .

The problem with him knowing where he wanted to get to but having no idea how to get there, and his constant course correcting to fix stuff after the fact.

Not sure how thats a problem in the Prequels and isn't an even bigger problem in the Sequels. =P

[Devonix]

Not sure how thats a problem in the Prequels and isn't an even bigger problem in the Sequels. =P

It's a problem in the Original trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy and the New Trilogy.

But I enjoy the OT and NT so it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment as much.

[Scowling Dragon]

But I enjoy the OT and NT so it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment as much.

Then clearly being unplanned isn't the primary core for your Dislike of the PT. For me its the terrible acting, staging, directing, moment to moment dialogue and conveyance.
But its world-building, creativity, fundamental plot, concepts, and relation to the OT on a conceptual level are superb.

I guess the PTs are almost exact opposites of the ST (Or NT as you call it).

[Devonix]

Then clearly being unplanned isn't the primary core for your Dislike of the PT. For me its the terrible acting, staging, directing, moment to moment dialogue and conveyance.
But its world-building, creativity, fundamental plot, concepts, and relation to the OT on a conceptual level are superb.

I guess the PTs are almost exact opposites of the ST (Or NT as you call it).

It's more that being unplanned leads to a whole host of problems. You can overcome it but if there's no plan set out. That means you need a good group of people able to hammer through those problems.

the PT was one person's vision. so if that one person doesn't have a plan well...

[Mightymosy]

So George Lucas may not be the best planner (or writer) ever. I've read that a couple of times.

Yet I find all of his work in the originals and prequels vastly superior than what we have now in the sequels.

I'd rather have one director with a consistent vision and mediocre planning (GL) than two writers with different visions (one having average planning and one being chaotic evil :smallwink:).

[Scowling Dragon]

The PT was one person's vision. so if that one person doesn't have a plan well...

Which meant it fundamentally had more focus then a boardroom split apart by years and committees and advisement boards all more interested in short-term profit then even brand growth or advancement.

But the ST was ALSO not planned very well so somehow its capable of being both immensely committee designed and at the same time incredibly insubstantial.

[Devonix]

So George Lucas may not be the best planner (or writer) ever. I've read that a couple of times.

Yet I find all of his work in the originals and prequels vastly superior than what we have now in the sequels.

I'd rather have one director with a consistent vision and mediocre planning (GL) than two writers with different visions (one having average planning and one being chaotic evil :smallwink:).

But that's not how the original trillogy was done. The Original Trillogy was the creation of a bunch of people. Lucas was involved but he was neither the writer or director for most of it. He supported and was involved in the creation. But the Original trilogy was good precisly because it wasn't done by one director and being just his vision.


I highly recommend watching SF debris documentary on the creation of the Original and Prequel trilogy.

[Mightymosy]

Well then that group for the OT and the prequels was way better having a consistent vision that the group for the sequels.

As far as I understood, though, George Lucas has always been the "boss" for the original and the prequel movies, in the sense that he was the main person saying where the story would go.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, Legends is all but dead with the exception of SWTOR which is slowly being converted into a shambling zombie due to a lack of financial support (for Star Wars fans who haven't played through at least the F2P parts, now would be a good time to do that). Disney won't be bringing it back. They're committed to this new continuity which is not good. The whole Empire converts to First Order thing while the Republic does nothing is a poor story and killing Snoke the way they did in TLJ massively undercuts any attempt to do a 'rise of Snoke' series.

Disney could try to do its own Old Republic plotline but this is probably a bad idea since it would almost certainly be worse than the existing KOTOR-SWTOR continuity (which is some of the very best Legends material). What is ripe for expansion is the revised plotline of the Old Republic's 'founding' around 1000 BBY. While Darth Bane remains canon, having appeared in TCW, the Darth Bane novels are no longer canon and the history of the New Sith Wars has been erased. That story could be completely retold in an exciting way with all new Jedi heroes and Sith villains.

Oh, I know we're not getting more Legends. It's a shame, as I really can't being myself to care for the new continuity, especially after The Last Jedi, while the new continuity is what got me into Legends.

I'd love it if the new continuity did meaningfully go back and five us stories that are recognisably different. But I expect that won't happen, won't sell enough Rey figures or X-wings.


I'd rather have one director with a consistent vision and mediocre planning (GL) than two writers with different visions (one having average planning and one being chaotic evil :smallwink:).

I think Star Wars shows why the best of both worlds is needed.

The Original Trilogy was, if I'm not mistaken, generated by Lucas and then refined by many other people, including the actors and even script writers and directors for Empire and Jedi. It is a trilogy of three very good finds that connect together but aren't entirely dependent on each other.

The Prequel Trilogy gave Lucas too much control in areas he's not as skilled in, including apparently scriptwriting and direction. The worlds are even better and there's nothing wrong with the core stories, but some of the plot elements are silly and the dialogue is awful (interestingly my ex told me that the prequels aren't hated as much in France, maybe dubbing the dialogue with more emotional performances saying words that were put together better makes the films much more enjoyable).

The Sequel Trilogy has films that were all the responsibility of different People with no overarching vision, which causes massive changes in details from one film to the next and some elements just don't make sense as they were created by people not used to the universe (TLJ and it's chase sequence).

FWIW my favourite film is still Revenge of the Sith, even though I know it has many problems.

[Mechalich]

I'd love it if the new continuity did meaningfully go back and five us stories that are recognisably different. But I expect that won't happen, won't sell enough Rey figures or X-wings.


I don't understand Disney's aversion to producing new designs all of a sudden. The market has shown that Star Wars fans like to buy new cool designs and that you can make lots of money that way. SWTOR's Cartel Market is still making a pile of cash churning out all sorts of new variable armor designs and trawling the legends continuity to produce armor sets for every conceivable character they possibly can for you to buy.

The central Star Wars aesthetic is fairly flexible and people will buy pretty much anything cool that gets churned out. And the toy market is full of collectors, meaning successful adults with disposable income who will buy one of every X-thing to put on a shelf in their house. Making money off those people means churning out more product, not rehashing existing things.

[Zevox]

Snoke served his purpose in the story. That purpose was to get Ben into position to be the big bad of the story. Snoke faking his death, or just being a puppet ruins that.
That's a purpose that deserves to be ruined, if you ask me. Granted, I don't really want Snoke back either, but he'd still be better than giving Kylo full-blown main antagonist status. At least Snoke only looked like an idiot in how he died, in contrast to Kylo, who is just an incompetent failure pretty well constantly.

[Devonix]

That's a purpose that deserves to be ruined, if you ask me. Granted, I don't really want Snoke back either, but he'd still be better than giving Kylo full-blown main antagonist status. At least Snoke only looked like an idiot in how he died, in contrast to Kylo, who is just an incompetent failure pretty well constantly.

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.

[Scowling Dragon]

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.

A threatening antagonist not make that does.

I love Skeletor as well as the next man, but I will always say that the Fire Nation led by the Ruthless and seemingly unstoppable fire lord is way more intimidating them him.

[Metahuman1]

A threatening antagonist not make that does.

I love Skeletor as well as the next man, but I will always say that the Fire Nation led by the Ruthless and seemingly unstoppable fire lord is way more intimidating them him.

Precisely. Hell, we've seen CHILDRENS SHOWS give us more complex and/or threatening villains then Ben Solo.


Just off the top of my head,


Magneto form the 90's X-men.

Mr. Freeze, The Joker, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghoul and Bane from Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU. Cadmus I'd say also qualifies for this.

The Lich from Adventure Time.

Amon, Kuveria, The Firelord and Zeheer from The Avatar The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra Franchise.

Xanato's, Demona and McBeth from Gargoyals.

The Reach and The Light from Young Justice.

Slade and Trigon from the 05 Teen Titans series.



Everyone of them comes off as more intimidating, effective and/or Interesting then Ben Solo at his best. Some of them do so consistently over fairly large chunks of screen time spread over one or multiple seasons. This is a colossal failure on the ST's part, and it makes trying to promote him to main villain in this movie all the more damning.


About the only way there going to do something interesting with Ben is if he dies because Hux stabs him in the back successfully, and the Knights of Ren bow to him because he's show he's vastly more competent then we've been lead to believe in Episodes 7 and 8. And when the most interesting thing that can happen is you getting back stabbed to try and salvage a more interesting villain in someone else, you are a failure as a villain.

[Dacia Brabant]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.

Since we're talking cartoon villains, I swear at this point having Ren in charge of the First Order is like Starscream leading the Decepticons: something that should only last about five minutes until Galvatron shows up and kicks his ass. Only there is no Galvatron in this story, hells there isn't even an Astrotrain. There's just an emo kid with a lightsaber and his only "friend," the reject from a BNP rally. I mean really, they'd be better off with King Hippo and Eggplant Wizard! They'd still get beet, but at least it would lettuce have a few laughs first. :smallamused: :smalltongue:

[Devonix]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.

Since we're talking cartoon villains, I swear at this point having Ren in charge of the First Order is like Starscream leading the Decepticons: something that should only last about five minutes until Galvatron shows up and kicks his ass. Only there is no Galvatron in this story, hells there isn't even an Astrotrain. There's just an emo kid with a lightsaber and his only "friend," the reject from a BNP rally. I mean really, they'd be better off with King Hippo and Eggplant Wizard! They'd still get beet, but at least it would lettuce have a few laughs first. :smallamused: :smalltongue:

Someone doesn't read transformers. I say this because Starscream being fully in charge is the best thing that has ever happened to the character.

[Jayngfet]

The difference is that there are a lot of other named decepticons who can carry an episode. With Starscream in charge you can do something with say, Soundwave. Or Scorponok. There's a lot of characters on that roster and a lot of air time to give them.

With the sequel trilogy you have Ren, Hux who is explicitly a tool and a coward, and maybe Phasma who is essentially a joke at this point. It's too late to establish a new Boba Fett character. The Knights of Ren are MIA after being established that they exist. There's no one the audience can latch onto in the FO's roster.

[Zevox]

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.
Yeah, can't say that I agree with any of that. That's the opposite of interesting to me - it's boring. He's supposed to be one of the main antagonists of the new trilogy - now the main one post-TLJ - and yet he doesn't even come off as a serious threat to the protagonists. He already failed to beat Rey in a lightsaber duel, and that's when she was totally untrained and he wasn't. He's already failed to use his force powers on her, when she was his captive and didn't even know she had any to resist them with. He's shown himself to be an incompetent fool who can't lead the First Order to the simplest of victories when he has the overwhelming advantage over his opponents. He seems like something out of a comedy parody, but somehow he's supposed to be taken seriously. If he's not the worst part of the sequel trilogy, it's only because of how badly they botched Luke's character in TLJ.

And Hux is just sad at this point, a pathetic toady who can't do anything because the guys with force powers will just psychically b****-slap him if he tries. Maybe under other circumstances he could be interesting, but not as long as Snoke and/or Kylo are around holding his leash.


Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight.
100% agreed.

[tomandtish]

Precisely. Hell, we've seen CHILDRENS SHOWS give us more complex and/or threatening villains then Ben Solo.


Just off the top of my head,


Magneto form the 90's X-men.

Mr. Freeze, The Joker, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghoul and Bane from Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU. Cadmus I'd say also qualifies for this.

The Lich from Adventure Time.

Amon, Kuveria, The Firelord and Zeheer from The Avatar The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra Franchise.

Xanato's, Demona and McBeth from Gargoyals.

The Reach and The Light from Young Justice.

Slade and Trigon from the 05 Teen Titans series.



Everyone of them comes off as more intimidating, effective and/or Interesting then Ben Solo at his best. Some of them do so consistently over fairly large chunks of screen time spread over one or multiple seasons. This is a colossal failure on the ST's part, and it makes trying to promote him to main villain in this movie all the more damning.


About the only way there going to do something interesting with Ben is if he dies because Hux stabs him in the back successfully, and the Knights of Ren bow to him because he's show he's vastly more competent then we've been lead to believe in Episodes 7 and 8. And when the most interesting thing that can happen is you getting back stabbed to try and salvage a more interesting villain in someone else, you are a failure as a villain.

Although not a kids show, when listing more competent villians, you forgot Darph BoBo from Tripping the Rift......

[Dacia Brabant]

Someone doesn't read transformers. I say this because Starscream being fully in charge is the best thing that has ever happened to the character.

I was referring to the character voiced by the late great Chris Latta. And which comics--and which continuity--are you referring to? Not the one with the Underbase, surely, because that was dreadful.

[Devonix]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.

As for Starscream I'm talking about the current books where Starscream has been the leader of the Cybertronian race for almost 5 years now.

Forcing Starscream away from the role of warrior and into the role of a polititian maintaining peace and structiure between Cybertron and the colony worlds now that the war between the Autobots and Decepticons is over is just wonderful to read.

The very things that were weaknesses in him in wartime are strengths he can use in peacetime.


Going back to Kylo. Because Kylo isn't Starscream in this analogy, Hux is. Kylo being in charge makes the first order more interesting. The hints of it to me go back to the reactions of the people on the ground, the soldiers and captains who have goals, who have ideals. The Ex imperials who were brought into this because they believed that they would be restoring the legitimate government, the rightful rule of the Empire. But are now trapped serving a petulant child who is unsure what he wants to do with all of this power.

Kylo being the way he is, makes everyone around him more compelling.

[Scowling Dragon]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.

Kylo just doesn't have enough power of any sort to really be that intimidating force, that him being unpredictable makes him scarier. Hes had his ass kicked repeatedly by Rey with and without a Chest Wound, and an additional bumbling idiot to the FOs masive list of bumbling idiot leadership doesn't inspire confidence.
A Rabid Dog is unpredictable, but when I think which dog is more threatening to Rabbits Im tracking, I think the one that has had its shots.
Kefka is an example of a "Insane Danger". A character with Godlike Power who is also insane IS indeed terrifying. But Kylo isn't insane. Merely petulant and insecure.

Not saying you can't find him scary, Im just explaining why I don't find HIM scary.

[Devonix]

Kylo just doesn't have enough power of any sort to really be that intimidating force, that him being unpredictable makes him scarier. Hes had his ass kicked repeatedly by Rey with and without a Chest Wound, and an additional bumbling idiot to the FOs masive list of bumbling idiot leadership doesn't inspire confidence.
A Rabid Dog is unpredictable, but when I think which dog is more threatening to Rabbits Im tracking, I think the one that has had its shots.
Kefka is an example of a "Insane Danger". A character with Godlike Power who is also insane IS indeed terrifying. But Kylo isn't insane. Merely petulant and insecure.

Not saying you can't find him scary, Im just explaining why I don't find HIM scary.

When I say power I don't mean his force powers. I mean being in control of a large military. Palpatine and others have goals, What does Kylo want to actually do with his military. I mean I have no idea if he might just glass a planet to squeltch an uprising when he could put a govenor in place who could simply rule it properly.

Kylo didn't earn his place and so he has no idea how to rule anything. Also the fact that his subordinates don't respect him, that they are all gunning to take his place in a way that we never even had hinted at us with the Emperor. That's facinating.

Going back to the rabid dog analogy. Yes a Dog that had it's shots is more dangerous to the rabits. But the Rabbid dog is more dangerous to his own pack and to everyone else. That's what's gets my attention with him.

[Scowling Dragon]

When I say power I don't mean his force powers. I mean being in control of a large military.

And the FO as a Military has been paradoxically ridiculously overblown and ridiculously incompetent.
The FOs main superpower is lackluster and lazy worldbuilding (To explain their out their bum Fleet and Personel), not much else.
Also the Republics superpower being downright brain-dead.
God the EU was at its worst when it was explaining away utterly lazy and contrived plot points and the ST being some of the MOST contrived as such has some of the worst modern EU.

I know this will be utterly reversed next film with the FO busting out more infinite resources (Maybe the Starforge base or whatever not established or foreshadowed in anyway, makes it easy!), but so far the FO has lost MILLIONS. Of personel and planetoid tons of their ships and resources in a period LASTING ONE WEEK.

The FO is already "Unpredictable" because its stupid. Its ALREADY led by insecure weiner boys. Not sure how adding another one in any way changes their dynamics.

[Devonix]

I most certainly agree that the First Order's military has been poorly handled in terms of knowing what they have, and the staggering amount of losses they've sustained. A loss like what happened here would have crippled the Empire but we still have an entire movie left where they are supposed to be big and scary.

The whole opening crawl saying that they took over the galaxy largely made no sense. Because since it starts immediatly following the end of t he first movie, where would they have had time to take over anything.

Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

[Strigon]

It almost sounds like you're saying Kylo is the key to all this?

[Devonix]

To me the biggest dropped ball of Episode 8 was the scene they cut with Finn trying to convince the Stormtroopers to rebel against the first order after the ship is attacked.

You create a story where the enemy has the bulk of their soldiers comprised of kidnapped and indoctrinated child soldiers. And you have one of your main heroes be someone who escaped them.

And you never bring it up that there should be some attempt to free them? That's a missed opportunity that I hope they pick up later.

[Scowling Dragon]

Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

Thing is I get your point, and I understand what you mean. My problem is however we already have seen this sort of archetype done better...In Star wars...With Almost the exact same Dynamic Type idea....And it already had the same mask involved!
It was with Darth Revan, in KOTOR. Revan was a supposed Battle Genius. However his Aprentice Malack Brutal and Cruel and missed all the details however in his rage and power he ended up doing allot more Damage then Revan.

The problem is that Kylo is no Malak. Malak had more motive and Development then Kylo, and weilded the still secure Star Forge.
It was a scary thought that an Idiot like Malak would bombard 3 planets because he had the resources to do it, instead of just bombarding 1 and encouraging the other 3 to surrender like Revan would do.

------Thought Separation--------

But Kylo like the rest of he ST just sorta cartoonishly BUMBLES into everything. Everything has the reasoning and occurrence of a man slipping on a banana peel.

Luke just cartoonishly bumbles into Kylo becoming evil. Then cartoonishly this has this redculous Superman 3 domino effect of him becoming evil, burning down the temple, and Luke becoming a hermit and conveniently cut off from the force.

Kylo is also no Anakin Skywalker who ALSO had a similar Arc. We saw how spoiled Anakin was from his force powers, we see him develop into a tantrumy demanding adult until he is pretty much put through a trail by burning, and comes out armor plated.

There just isn't any Pathos to anything. Everything has the timing and story beats of a 3 Stooges Short.

[Dr.Samurai]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.
I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight. One of my biggest problems watching the movie is that it's difficult to root for anyone during it's runtime, and the people you do root for are being set up for failure. So...

Luke: quitter, bitter, failure, washed up, learning a lesson he learned decades ago, sitting by doing nothing while his friends die and the republic is conquered
Rey: hates Kylo but then feels sorry for him, goes to the ship to save him because it's a mirror to RotJ, gets pwned by Snoke, refuses Kylo, ends up on the salt planet to lift some rocks
Poe: gets the majority of the remaining Resistance fighters killed, leaving them at around ten soldiers
Leia: slaps a guy, allows herself to be killed, hands over command to someone else
Holdo: fails to boost the morale of her soldiers, loses power in a mutiny, enacts a failed mission and has to sacrifice herself to make up for it
Finn: accomplishes nothing in the movie
Rose: accomplishes nothing in the movie (sorry, releases a few slave horses for immediate recapture, abandons slave children)

Snoke: gets killed by his own right-hand man in the most simple and obvious way
Kylo: still conflicted after killing one parent, still not fully evil, can't seduce Rey, gets pwned in front of his army
Hux: gets pwned by Snoke in front of his men, gets pwned by Kylo in front of his own men
Phasma: less screen time than TFA, still gets pwned easily

This is the new Star Wars. Thrilling heroics that get all the good guys killed. Daring missions that fail and get more good guys killed. Heroes more concerned with saving the bad guys than helping the good guys. Heroes more concerned with wallowing in self-pity and waiting around for death, than staying true to their friends and family.

[Dacia Brabant]

As for Starscream I'm talking about the current books where Starscream has been the leader of the Cybertronian race for almost 5 years now.


Ah, OK thanks, that clears that up. I haven't read any of the comics in probably 15 years as I didn't care for the relaunch, but it sounds as if I've been missing out.

Anyway, it seems to me the root of all our disagreement with you over Episode VIII boils down to this: the story we wanted to see is something very different from the story you wanted to see, and what we all got from The Last Jedi is much closer to what you had preferred than it is to ours. That isn't to say that it's exactly what you wanted, far from it as you've made clear, but it's still within the scope of that whereas for us it's not even in the same galaxy let alone the same ballpark.

I think what we wanted above all from the ST was continuity, and not just continuity with the preceding films in terms of narrative and charactization but also of the themes and aesthetics of an established universe. I do still feel we got that with TFA--even though now it appears it was a hollow attempt--and Rogue One to an extent despite its own plot-driven divergences, but this latest movie just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. And yet it does to you and to a lot of other fans who liked it, and I can't understand why. Maybe it would help if I better understood what it was you were wanting to see from the new movies?


I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight. One of my biggest problems watching the movie is that it's difficult to root for anyone during it's runtime, and the people you do root for are being set up for failure.

Oh absolutely, your summation is exactly how I see it. Yet compelling, or at least competent villains can rescue a story from its boring, lackluster heroes, while the reverse isn't the case.

[zimmerwald1915]

Heroes more concerned with wallowing in self-pity and waiting around for death, than staying true to their friends and family.
This is a good thing.

[Hopeless]

So what's stopping the First Order turning on them now Snoke is dead?

Seriously JJ could reveal that all that immense armada splintering into factions and fighting each other!

For all we know the Knights of Ren will team up to counter their supposed Master since he isn't that great a threat so maybe they might seek out Rey to gain her help?

What was that series about a Jedi Knight stuck behind enemy lines I think it was one of the Dark Horse comic lines set in the KOTOR era involving multiple Sith as part of a supposed family?

[Zevox]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.
But he's not dangerous, whether he's predictable or unpredictable. He's consistently failed to be a threat almost every time he's tried. The most he's managed to do is capture Poe at the start of TFA, which as a force-user facing a single, unprepared non-force-user is utterly unimpressive. It's hard to be terrifying when your story is just one failure after another.


To me the biggest dropped ball of Episode 8 was the scene they cut with Finn trying to convince the Stormtroopers to rebel against the first order after the ship is attacked.

You create a story where the enemy has the bulk of their soldiers comprised of kidnapped and indoctrinated child soldiers. And you have one of your main heroes be someone who escaped them.

And you never bring it up that there should be some attempt to free them? That's a missed opportunity that I hope they pick up later.
I can agree with that. Finn's the only major character in the new films whose story seems to have some serious potential behind it, but they've done nothing with it for two films now. At this point though that just leaves me with no confidence that they have any intention to do anything with it, and will instead just have him keep being just along for the ride.


I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight.
Yeah, that's fair. I do think that the bigger failure by far is with the antagonists, personally, but the protagonists haven't really done much either. The only major thing they've accomplished is destroying Starkiller Base, and that wasn't even the main protagonists' doing, it was Han and Chewie sabotaging the shields and Poe and his X-Wings flying in for the kill. Otherwise, Rey's just a bland character who has gotten captured and then escaped the First Order twice, and found Luke but failed to get much training or help out of him, while Finn is potentially interesting but mostly just along for the ride in the first film and involved in a totally pointless subplot in the second, and everybody else's biggest accomplishment was just surviving TLJ despite being put in such a dire predicament that even villains as bad at what they do as the First Order looked like they should have been able to wipe them out, though most of the credit for that goes to Kylo being so easily distracted by Luke and to Chewie and the Falcon showing up to get everyone away in the nick of time.

[Devonix]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.

[Scowling Dragon]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.

But I listed all the ways he still underperforms even in that role in comparison to even star wars villains of the past.

[Devonix]

But I listed all the ways he still underperforms even in that role in comparison to even star wars villains of the past.

In what way? He's only been the head honcho for one film at the climax when trying to stop the heroes from escaping. Something that he had to fail at because otherwise there's no movie.

I'm talking about him doing things like sending the army off to take over or Raze a planet. Or even stuff a simple as killing off a village of people like at the beginning of Force Awakens.

[Anonymouswizard]

An incompetent buffoon with access to a military force that has little to no loyalty is much less scary, to me, than a lone but competent individual. The buffoon can do almost nothing unless his army agrees to it, and the end of TLJ heavily implies that Kylo Ren has lost control of his army. A single competent villain can make the main characters' lives hell, which as we follow the main characters will make everything seem worse.

I mean, I suppose that an incompetent villain is an interesting counterpoint to an insanely competent hero, but it doesn't make for good tension.

Uh, spoiler warning for the rest of the post, in case there's anybody on this thread who somehow hasn't seen all eight main SW films.

There is a lot of potential for good storytelling in the ST, but almost none of it is used. A lot of this is the failure for an interesting villain to appear, in many ways it's Vader that makes the Original Trilogy (although Luke is at least a slightly better protagonist than Rey). The best movie in the PT of the one where Vader appears, because Vader is a fun villain to watch even when he hasn't completely fallen, but Sidous still comes off as a competent manipulator over all three films and his chosen apprentices still provide legitimate challenges for the heroes even if pre-Vader they can be argued to be distractions to draw attention away from himself. But the ST seems unwilling to let any villain remain both competent and alive. Snoke at least had potential, and managed to be legitimately threatening, but nope, can't have a legitimate villain as the hero's opposition (and bringing Snoke back would cheapen the effect).

The Knights of Ren have promise, being the only known group of organised Force users and being dark side, but introducing them and making then the villain in E9 will be hard (although I suspect it's what will happen, where they swoop in and establish control of the FO after hearing that Snoke was removed from the picture).

[Scowling Dragon]

In what way? He's only been the head honcho for one film at the climax when trying to stop the heroes from escaping. Something that he had to fail at because otherwise there's no movie.

I'm talking about him doing things like sending the army off to take over or Raze a planet. Or even stuff a simple as killing off a village of people like at the beginning of Force Awakens.



Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

Thing is I get your point, and I understand what you mean. My problem is however we already have seen this sort of archetype done better...In Star wars...With Almost the exact same Dynamic Type idea....And it already had the same mask involved!
It was with Darth Revan, in KOTOR. Revan was a supposed Battle Genius. However his Aprentice Malack Brutal and Cruel and missed all the details however in his rage and power he ended up doing allot more Damage then Revan.

The problem is that Kylo is no Malak. Malak had more motive and Development then Kylo, and weilded the still secure Star Forge.
It was a scary thought that an Idiot like Malak would bombard 3 planets because he had the resources to do it, instead of just bombarding 1 and encouraging the other 3 to surrender like Revan would do.

------Thought Separation--------

But Kylo like the rest of he ST just sorta cartoonishly BUMBLES into everything. Everything has the reasoning and occurrence of a man slipping on a banana peel.

Luke just cartoonishly bumbles into Kylo becoming evil. Then cartoonishly this has this redculous Superman 3 domino effect of him becoming evil, burning down the temple, and Luke becoming a hermit and conveniently cut off from the force.

Kylo is also no Anakin Skywalker who ALSO had a similar Arc. We saw how spoiled Anakin was from his force powers, we see him develop into a tantrumy demanding adult until he is pretty much put through a trail by burning, and comes out armor plated.

There just isn't any Pathos to anything. Everything has the timing and story beats of a 3 Stooges Short.

Here is what I said before. Even when it comes to things like this Kylo Ren is a second stringer. Hes more PATHETIC then dangerous.

[Zevox]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.
Hardly. He's so incompetent that it wouldn't be surprising for his control of the First Order to just implode on its own, with no help needed from the heroes. It won't, of course, but that's because the writers think he's actually capable of being the villain for this story, despite all evidence to the contrary, and thus won't write that as being what goes down.

Moreover, the heroes should be in danger. A villain who can't make me believe the heroes are in danger from him is not a villain worthy of the title - he's comic relief at best. Except that's not what the films are trying to do with Kylo, so instead he's just a failed attempt at a villain.

[Anonymouswizard]

Note that a story doesn't need a great villain to be great, but at that point you're looking for a strong cast of main characters that the ST lacks.

Babylon 5 very easily made disasters and charger friction into A and B plots early on. It's strongest early villain is Bester, who when first introduced does not overlap with a lot of other stories. An entire faction of villains is represented by a character who's rarely on the station. The second main villainous faction the show takes a long time to appear. But because Sinclair and Garibaldi are string characters, and the B plot focuses around other strong characters, the reappearance of a space station is an interesting plot. An entire plot is spun out of a main character's friend wanting to participate in a dangerous alien competition.

The ST doesn't have six or more main characters I'm invested in due to good writing, so when the villains fail to be threatening it gets boring. But when the Centuri Emperor collapsed the scenes of G'Kar and Londo dealing with it kept me engaged, and it fed into Londo's ongoing character arc with his political ambitions.

[Devonix]

As was said before it seems that what I and some others wanted out of the ST are what we wanted but not what some others wanted.

I wanted them to move away from the Jedi and focus more on the galaxy, On the goings on with other factions. I wanted Rey to be a nobody, and didn't want Snoke to have a big reveal.
I wanted to focus more on the inner workings and personalities of the antagonists as well as making the force more mysterious.

And I wanted them to focus on building up the new characters as opposed to simply letting the old cast carry the film.

I got what I wanted, hell I did a prediction video before seeing the movie and almost everything that I wanted in my video came true. I'm very aware that my opinions are colored by that, and if someone else isn't getting what they want I understand that too.

[Dr.Samurai]

I got what I wanted, hell I did a prediction video before seeing the movie and almost everything that I wanted in my video came true.
Really? That’s awesome 😁! Seems like you’re in tune with the new people in charge then.

[Zevox]

As was said before it seems that what I and some others wanted out of the ST are what we wanted but not what some others wanted.

I wanted them to move away from the Jedi and focus more on the galaxy, On the goings on with other factions. I wanted Rey to be a nobody, and didn't want Snoke to have a big reveal.
I wanted to focus more on the inner workings and personalities of the antagonists as well as making the force more mysterious.

And I wanted them to focus on building up the new characters as opposed to simply letting the old cast carry the film.

I got what I wanted, hell I did a prediction video before seeing the movie and almost everything that I wanted in my video came true. I'm very aware that my opinions are colored by that, and if someone else isn't getting what they want I understand that too.
See I'd say that most of those are things I'd want, too (don't care about how mysterious the force is or isn't, but otherwise sounds good). I just believe they're failing miserably at them here. The First Order are a bunch of idiots who can't do their jobs effectively, the protagonists are bland, and the story so far is, largely as a result of those, a dull one that has failed to make me want to see any more of it.

[Scowling Dragon]

I got what I wanted, hell I did a prediction video before seeing the movie and almost everything that I wanted in my video came true. I'm very aware that my opinions are colored by that, and if someone else isn't getting what they want I understand that too.

I actually don't get you that way sadly. What makes TLJ amazing to me is that I don't understand it in many Lenses.

Sure it didn't focus on the Jedi, but the world development was awful, and we only really got to see a tiny amount of locations, and the one we did see made no sense and was just slapdash and lazy.
I wanted Rey to be developed properly and be toned down and actually feel threatened by something outside of sucker punches by a few rare individuals.
I wanted theere to be less fanservice but none of the characters benefited from much development and often devolved into nonsense.

The Antagonists also barely got any development, in fact Kylos motivation is comedically stupid. He didn't run to his parents and call luke an *******? Only choice left was to slaughter everybody in the temple and become a darkside user? Really? Thats development?

I wanted just about what you wanted, and more, but I think the movie really just fails in my book at all of them.

[Metahuman1]

See I'd say that most of those are things I'd want, too (don't care about how mysterious the force is or isn't, but otherwise sounds good). I just believe they're failing miserably at them here. The First Order are a bunch of idiots who can't do their jobs effectively, the protagonists are bland, and the story so far is, largely as a result of those, a dull one that has failed to make me want to see any more of it.

I concur.


I wanted the old characters to get a good send off, but I wanted them to have a send off, there story to be over in a good way, and then the new characters have to carry it.

We are so very not getting good send offs. They are actively tearing them down and crapping on there memory and legacy instead to try and make there utterly crap new characters look good by comparison.



The villains are at BEST a bad and unfunny joke. I hate them but I hate them for all the wrong reasons to hate a villain and none of the right ones.

And frankly, the story is so garbage, it at this point, it actually makes the prequels look better, and I didn't think I'd ever live to say that.

[Hopeless]

Last I heard they still haven't released the novelisation of the movie!
What on earth were they thinking?!

[noctum]

Last I heard they still haven't released the novelisation of the movie!
What on earth were they thinking?!

Haha, I remember being a kid and reading and rereading the novelization of episode 1 over and over. I was really obsessed with the series then.

[Anonymouswizard]

Last I heard they still haven't released the novelisation of the movie!
What on earth were they thinking?!

I suspect the author they got in took one look at the script and committed themselves for mental help.

In my head I'm imagining the eventual novelisation to be pieced together from the various drafts the hundreds of authors they tried to get to write it. The most resilient managed to make five entire pages before suffering a breakdown.

[Hopeless]

So it was delayed because they chucked Rian's vision in the bin and wrote something that actually made sense and would have been a great sequel to TFA?
Unfortunately they couldn't allow something that showed up their movie for the farce it actually is so they're still rewriting it but no one's capable of copying Rian's travesty of a script even if the cast performed a miracle by being able to get people to actually love their performance and forget it's supposed to be a sequel?!

[hamishspence]

So it was delayed because they chucked Rian's vision in the bin and wrote something that actually made sense and would have been a great sequel to TFA?
Given that Jason Fry (one of the better writers of Legends tie-in material) is writing it, I'm hoping it will be interesting to read.

[Anonymouswizard]

So it was delayed because they chucked Rian's vision in the bin and wrote something that actually made sense and would have been a great sequel to TFA?

In all honesty?

I suspect that The Last Jedi might work better in novelisation format, and the book will likely might little changes. What I suspect will happen is additions.

So the book will try to justify why the First Order doesn't microjump ships ahead of the Resistance (probably because the distances involved are still tiny compared to hyperdrive speeds). It'll explain why they can call whateverthenameis when they can't call their allies. It'll fill out the infiltration storyline so that more stuff happens between capture and 'ha, I betrayed you, idiots'. All the smaller problems will be fixed, leaving only the major ones like Luke's characterisation.

Although I suppose a book could spend a lot of time justifying Luke, especially with a flashback.

But they won't let the story be changed. However, a book can show a lot more than a film can.

[Wookieetank]

However, a book can show a lot more than a film can.

So much this. Much as RotS was the best of the PT, its novelization made Anakin's fall so much more believable with the extra details it was able to provide. His conflict over Jedi vs Palpatine was exacerbated by the conflict of Padme trying to draw him into her and some of her more moderate allies plotting to end the Clone Wars diplomatically along with removing Palpatine from his position. So now we have him being pulled one way by the person he loves, another way by the people he trusts and then the person he respects offers him a way out (a bit simplified, but you get the gist).

If you don't want to bother with the novelization though, a fair bit of this is in the deleted scenes :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Peelee]

In all honesty?

I suspect that The Last Jedi might work better in novelisation format, and the book will likely might little changes. What I suspect will happen is additions.

So the book will try to justify why the First Order doesn't microjump ships ahead of the Resistance (probably because the distances involved are still tiny compared to hyperdrive speeds).

It's not just a microjump; they could have a Star Destroyers jump farther out, then jump in right on top of the Resistance fleet. Exactly what Finn did, but in reverse. They have enough ships, so there absolutely needs to be justification for why this didn't happen.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's not just a microjump; they could have a Star Destroyers jump farther out, then jump in right on top of the Resistance fleet. Exactly what Finn did, but in reverse. They have enough ships, so there absolutely needs to be justification for why this didn't happen.
Maybe the Star Destroyers needed to remain in a specific formation around the Supremacy for the latter to use its hyperspace tracker thingy? Like a telescopic array?

[Scowling Dragon]

What do you even gain from all these piles and piles of explanations? To my mind, plot hole fixes such as these benefit films if its like a speedbumb in exchange for a visit to Disney land.
But if so many excuses have to be made for what at the end of the day is a mediocre experience at best then why put all the effort in?

The end result is simply something contrived, instead of nonsensical which is like choosing between a groin and face punch.

[zimmerwald1915]

But if so many excuses have to be made for what at the end of the day is a mediocre experience at best then why put all the effort in?
For the reward of feeling more clever than the creators, of course!

[Peelee]

Maybe the Star Destroyers needed to remain in a specific formation around the Supremacy for the latter to use its hyperspace tracker thingy? Like a telescopic array?

That's a reasonably good attempt, but then, Rose (ithink) said if they just knocked it out, another ship would simply start tracking them. So the specific formation part is kind of wonked up if the source can freely move within the specific formation (not to mention that the original formation would have been disrupted by the loss of the dreadnought). That said, it does help me believe that there likely can be a good way to ret-con it into not being ridiculous. Thanks!

[Hopeless]

Could simply reveal the only ship they can track is the Raddus but they know there should have been more ships at D'Qar assuming if they split their available forces they'll be ambushed by whoever is lying in wait?

[Scowling Dragon]

Could simply reveal the only ship they can track is the Raddus but they know there should have been more ships at D'Qar assuming if they split their available forces they'll be ambushed by whoever is lying in wait?

Abushed by a force large enough to take on multiple "Fleet Killers?"...The Fleet killers capable of being taken out by 1 bomber?....
God I fracking hate the slapdash and lackdaiscal nature of all the new ships.

Before it was "Big Ship=Scary". Now you can't know where to stand.

[Peelee]

Abushed by a force large enough to take on multiple "Fleet Killers?"...The Fleet killers capable of being taken out by 1 bomber?....
God I fracking hate the slapdash and lackdaiscal nature of all the new ships.

Huh. Something I never thought of until just now - Poe's X-Wing was outfitted with some sort of special charged superdrive engine. Why weren't any of the bombers carrying something like that? Ya know, to offset their whole "horribly, horribly lumbering weakness" thing they had going on? Seems like that'd be a pretty useful thing for them to have.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's not just a microjump; they could have a Star Destroyers jump farther out, then jump in right on top of the Resistance fleet. Exactly what Finn did, but in reverse. They have enough ships, so there absolutely needs to be justification for why this didn't happen.

Oh sure, I've actually forgotten about 80% of the film. Also, this is why I hate how SW has pinpoint accurate hyperspace exits, insanely so since TFA. I mean, wasn't a big thing in the Thrawn trilogy that ships couldn't come out in formation without abusing gravity fields.

I mean, I'm currently designing a game setting where spaceships instantly 'skip' through hyperspace over distances of one or more parsecs, and even the most accurate jump is still probably a couple of AU away from your target point. Potentially light years of something goes wrong. It stops questions like this (even in space effective weapon ranges are normally less than an AU) and introduces tactical consequences.


Huh. Something I never thought of until just now - Poe's X-Wing was outfitted with some sort of special charged superdrive engine. Why weren't any of the bombers carrying something like that? Ya know, to offset their whole "horribly, horribly lumbering weakness" thing they had going on? Seems like that'd be a pretty useful thing for them to have.

On the other hand, it's acceleration seemed to be something SW inertial dampening couldn't account for. Maybe that would have messed up delivering the bombs.

[Mechalich]

What do you even gain from all these piles and piles of explanations? To my mind, plot hole fixes such as these benefit films if its like a speedbumb in exchange for a visit to Disney land.
But if so many excuses have to be made for what at the end of the day is a mediocre experience at best then why put all the effort in?

The end result is simply something contrived, instead of nonsensical which is like choosing between a groin and face punch.

Back when the Legends EU existed and there was a single continuity, explanations in the form of complex rationalizations or just outright retconning served as glue to hold the franchise together and fortify it so that additional works could still be produced without the fan community shouting 'that's impossible!' all the time. A lot of the novels centered around the Prequel films, in particular served to do this by fleshing out why certain seemingly nonsensical things were happening and why certain seemingly weird choices were made. For example: Nute Gunray came off as incompetent and spineless even though the Trade Federation was supposed to be important, so it was later presented that Palpatine had murdered all of the previous board members of the Federation and deliberately placed Gunray - who he knew he could control - in charge. In this way the EU managed to sort of graft scaffolding onto the PT over time so that eventually they could minimize the damage it inflicted.

Disney's destruction of the EU minimizes the value of this sort of corrective world-building. There's little purpose in trying to salvage TLJ because there's no greater franchise to salvage it for.

[Jayngfet]

Not only is there not a greater meaning to the setting, there can be no meaning. The Jedi die again anyway. There's nobody except Daisy Ridley. There was explicitly no other Jedi alive post Yavin but Luke in the war, so there isn't even much point in caring about Kanan or Ezra or people who aren't Dave Filoni's favorites. There is no Republic. What are you justifying crap for now? Surly British Brunette woman no. 4?

[Hopeless]

They reveal who raised Rey when she was abandoned as a child, it certainly wasn't Unkar Plutt so either Ahsoka or Ezra if he fakes his death so well even the Emperor believes it?

It's the only way now to redeem Rey she's clearly been trained and to make people WANT to watch Episode 9 it needs a live action cameo from the only known surviving force user!

Would you pay to watch a movie if it's just a glimpse of a live action Ahsoka Tano?!

PS:Apologies just realised!

[hamishspence]

They reveal who raised Rey when she was abandoned as a child, it certainly wasn't Unkar Plutt so either Ahsoka or Ezra if he fakes his death so well even the Emperor believes it?

Why not Plutt? Wasn't he the one holding her arm as the ship that abandoned her left, in her TFA vision?

[Mightymosy]

They reveal who raised Rey when she was abandoned as a child, it certainly wasn't Unkar Plutt so either Ahsoka or Ezra if he fakes his death so well even the Emperor believes it?

It's the only way now to redeem Rey she's clearly been trained and to make people WANT to watch Episode 9 it needs a live action cameo from the only known surviving force user!

Would you pay to watch a movie if it's just a glimpse of a live action Ahsoka Tano?!

It would certainly appeal to me, yet I still wouldn't know whether that drew me into cinema...

For me the most important aspect of a movie or book is whether the storyline goes somewhere.
And with Star Wars 8, it officially leads itself in circles.

When first I started watching Star Wars it went like this:

The evil galactic empire rules the galaxy, but there is a glimmer of hope: the rebels fight to overthrow its oppressive regime.

Now after Star Wars 8 we are at:
The evil galactic empire first order rules the galaxy, but there is a glimmer of hope: the rebels resistance fight to overthrow its oppressive regime.

For an 8-part "saga", this is just too much for me. I simply stopped caring for this story.
Add to the fact that TLJ was for me an absolutely atrocious movie, and I have no desire to watch more of this series.

Basically, it's Takeshi's castle all over again - but at least that one was pretty funny :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but what if everything seen in Episode 8 turns out to be a force vision Finn experiences in his coma?

So he wakes up remembers enough to warn Poe who manages to get Ackbar off the bridge, but this time Leia dies her body found on the bridge clutching Han's golden dice.

How would you react if that happened?

[Lethologica]

That fanfiction has probably already been written.

[Peelee]

...How would Leia have the golden dice, in that scenario?

[Lethologica]

She took them off the Falcon before Rey and Chewie flew away? *shrug* Finn was already in his coma by then, after all.

[Zevox]

Just a thought but what if everything seen in Episode 8 turns out to be a force vision Finn experiences in his coma?

So he wakes up remembers enough to warn Poe who manages to get Ackbar off the bridge, but this time Leia dies her body found on the bridge clutching Han's golden dice.

How would you react if that happened?
Besides bafflement that they were actually pulling an "it was all a dream?" Find out what the actual new story would be before deciding whether I cared or not.

[Mightymosy]

Just a thought but what if everything seen in Episode 8 turns out to be a force vision Finn experiences in his coma?

So he wakes up remembers enough to warn Poe who manages to get Ackbar off the bridge, but this time Leia dies her body found on the bridge clutching Han's golden dice.

How would you react if that happened?

Of all suggestions I have read for 9, this is the only one that would make me actively want to watch 9, yet.

And that's despite me hating reboots with a passion - some movies require desperate measures I guess :smallwink:

So, Hopeless, if you happen to be Kathleen Kennedy or whatever she'S called, by all means, YES!

[Hopeless]

...How would Leia have the golden dice, in that scenario?

The Force.

If they noticed it would provide evidence of Finn's vision being accurate and also that Leia had joined Han in whatever heaven they have in the Star Wars Galaxy!

[Devonix]

The Force.

If they noticed it would provide evidence of Finn's vision being accurate and also that Leia had joined Han in whatever heaven they have in the Star Wars Galaxy!

It's been a while since I've seen the film but from what I remember Leia didn't get the Dice from Luke. That was all part of the illusion. The real dice were still on the falcon.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's been a while since I've seen the film but from what I remember Leia didn't get the Dice from Luke. That was all part of the illusion. The real dice were still on the falcon.
That was my takeaway as well. Luke gives them to her before his confrontation with Kylo, but it's all a projection.

[khadgar567]

well for the people want to see ahsoka tano she lives but we need another episode of rebels post Vader era to make it sure as she survived from the sith ship explosion but still goes to gray jedi journey so we might need to wait next cartoon series to learn what happened to ahsoka while original trilogy happens.

[Dacia Brabant]

If we're going full "it was all a dream" then what has to happen at the end of Episode IX is Harrison Ford wakes up in bed with a start, saying "Honey, Honey, wake up! You'll never believe the dream I just had," and when the woman who'd been sleeping beside him wakes up we see it's Karen Allen. :smallbiggrin:

Oh wait, no, that should have been the ending of Episode VII. Nevermind. :smalltongue:

[Clertar]

For better or worse, the fact that previously niche genres like fantasy, sci-fi and superheroes are becoming more mainstram, studios are movimg away from targeting audiences made up of fanboys. And since it's working out, I doubt they see any reason to change course.
http://variety.com/2018/film/news/its-time-for-the-myth-of-the-fanboy-to-fade-black-panther-wonder-woman-1202703426/

[Anonymouswizard]

For better or worse, the fact that previously niche genres like fantasy, sci-fi and superheroes are becoming more mainstram, studios are movimg away from targeting audiences made up of fanboys. And since it's working out, I doubt they see any reason to change course.
http://variety.com/2018/film/news/its-time-for-the-myth-of-the-fanboy-to-fade-black-panther-wonder-woman-1202703426/

Eh, the SF that is becoming popular has never been the incredibly niche stuff, in my experience. Popular SF is stuff like Star Trek or Babylon 5, which are good series and I recommend them to many people, but there are still many SF stories I'd love to see become more mainstream but won't. Oh, and cyberpunk is popular, as both Blade Runner and The Matrix show, but it's kind of always been on that edge of popularity some things lurk at.

The example I tend to pull out is Revelation Space, as it's in the genre people tend to think of when you mention SF, but is very different. At the same time, there's a lot of potential for a rather accurate mainstream adaptation, although if putting it into a film you'd want to cut one off the two major plot threads.

With Superheroes, it's in a case of superheroes are cool, unless you read the comics. Which means I think the only real difference these days is that Marvel pumps films out so many films they're a big part of the major lineup.

Fantasy is kind of hit and miss. Some fantasy is really popular (Lord of the Rings, 'children's fantasy'*), some isn't (eleven billion different things).

I'd say that what's happened is that the definition of geekdom has been refined with social trends. Superheroes aren't geeky, superhero comics are. Liking Star Trek isn't geeky, being able to name the primary Vulcan character in every series is. Lord of the Rings isn't geeky, assassins using magic by ingesting metal is. At the same time some old nongeeky things are becoming more geeky.

* which yes, does have a decent following among adults, I'm talking more of the Narnia/The Hobbit style than 'fantasy aimed at kids'.

[Scowling Dragon]

For better or worse, the fact that previously niche genres like fantasy, sci-fi and superheroes are becoming more mainstram, studios are movimg away from targeting audiences made up of fanboys. And since it's working out, I doubt they see any reason to change course.
http://variety.com/2018/film/news/its-time-for-the-myth-of-the-fanboy-to-fade-black-panther-wonder-woman-1202703426/

Its not like geeky things are becoming less geeky. Geeky stuff has just been consumed and regurgitated in a consumer friendly fashion.

This is well known and likely to continue.

[Dr.Samurai]

Fans (boys and girls) have been there forever. We would have watched Black Panther and Wonder Woman five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, etc. Are you telling me that if they made an Old Republic movie with Bastila Shan as the protagonist ten years ago Star Wars fans would have boycotted?

The people that care about these movies is changing, meaning that more people care. Maligning fans for having been there first is insane. I'm glad that more people are interested in this stuff. But why these these articles making it something it isn't?

[Scowling Dragon]

The people that care about these movies is changing, meaning that more people care. Maligning fans for having been there first is insane. I'm glad that more people are interested in this stuff. But why these these articles making it something it isn't?

Because fans can point out plot holesor remember products that existed before the current one and persuade people not to buy it.

[Dr.Samurai]

I suppose that's part of it.

Star Wars fan: TLJ is awful. Bad story, plot holes everywhere, and they turned Luke into a coward.

Mysterious person: Go **** yourself fanboy. Movies are no longer made for you. They are made for ME!!! So **** off with your complaints.

Star Wars fan: Uh, who are you??

Mysterious person: I'm not a fanboy of Star Wars, but I have always liked Star Wars, but Star Wars movies have never been made for me until NOW!!

Star Wars fan: They weren't made for you but you have always liked them? But you're not a fan? :smallconfused:

Mysterious person: The days of you locking me out of the theaters are long gone evil fanboy! No one can stop me anymore from liking things that you also like! Muahahahahahahaha!!!

Star Wars fan: :smallconfused:

[Lord Joeltion]

Fans (boys and girls) have been there forever. We would have watched Black Panther and Wonder Woman five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, etc. Are you telling me that if they made an Old Republic movie with Bastila Shan as the protagonist ten years ago Star Wars fans would have boycotted?

The people that care about these movies is changing, meaning that more people care. Maligning fans for having been there first is insane. I'm glad that more people are interested in this stuff. But why these these articles making it something it isn't?

And that's not even counting that Wonder Woman was a project that was being pushed BY FANS ALONE for decades since the 60's and it was the producers who kept shutting down or playing deaf to those same projects. Even when a lot of fans liked them. Because they didn't believe they were appealing enough to "non-fans". People forget the sole reason superheroes movies are a big thing today is precisely because of the fandom, not the other way around. If Star Wars is what it is today, it isn't beacause of the Magic Rabbit of 2017; it's because of the old geeks who have been feeding the GreedMachineTM since the 80's.

Black Panther isn't the first great movie with black people as lead. It is certainly a great movie, but if it managed to pull the numbers it did, it wasn't because of a merit of its own on a vacuum; it is a merit of the industry as a whole. Release the movie, same script, with an adjusted budget according to the time say... 20 years ago (when Blade was released) and I doubt we would be talking more about Black Panther than about the X-men*. Blade was an objectively better movie than X-men; but at the time, everybody was talking about mutants, not vampires. Blade was recognized its merit much later; and that is, again: because of nostalgic fans who went back and rewatch the old movies removed from the baggage of their era.

I think a lot of people are trying to remove the fandom on purpose, as if we were the problem. "Star Wars is awesome, the fans are the problem! Black Panther wasn't released before because the fandom wouldn't have gone and watched it! Wonder Woman would have been released before if the fans wouldn't have been so nitpicky!" That's a big load of fresh, mushy and smelly BS. The problem was never the geeks. The problem is greedy companies who try to mask their forprofit! reasons with political correction. Critics and producers will use the geeks as scapegoats, as long as it serves as cool advertisement, which in turn, makes even more profit. I pity the fool who buys it.

*It's called hyperbole, shut up


End of the Rant

[Mightymosy]

I suppose that's part of it.

Star Wars fan: TLJ is awful. Bad story, plot holes everywhere, and they turned Luke into an inexplicably evil coward.

Mysterious person: Go **** yourself fanboy. Movies are no longer made for you. They are made for ME!!! So **** off with your complaints.

Star Wars fan: Uh, who are you??

Mysterious person: I'm not a fanboy of Star Wars, but I have always liked Star Wars, but Star Wars movies have never been made for me until NOW!!

Star Wars fan: They weren't made for you but you have always liked them? But you're not a fan? :smallconfused:

Mysterious person: The days of you locking me out of the theaters are long gone evil fanboy! No one can stop me anymore from liking things that you also like! Muahahahahahahaha!!!

Star Wars fan: :smallconfused:

Fixed it for you.

[Scowling Dragon]

And personally whilst I walked into WW excited with my mother and younger sister and where excited not for general based reasons we found the actress waifish and her acting bad, and the movie stupid.

[Dr.Samurai]

And that's not even counting that Wonder Woman was a project that was being pushed BY FANS ALONE for decades since the 60's and it was the producers who kept shutting down or playing deaf to those same projects. Even when a lot of fans liked them. Because they didn't believe they were appealing enough to "non-fans". People forget the sole reason superheroes movies are a big thing today is precisely because of the fandom, not the other way around. If Star Wars is what it is today, it isn't beacause of the Magic Rabbit of 2017; it's because of the old geeks who have been feeding the GreedMachineTM since the 80's.

Black Panther isn't the first great movie with black people as lead. It is certainly a great movie, but if it managed to pull the numbers it did, it wasn't because of a merit of its own on a vacuum; it is a merit of the industry as a whole. Release the movie, same script, with an adjusted budget according to the time say... 20 years ago (when Blade was released) and I doubt we would be talking more about Black Panther than about the X-men*. Blade was an objectively better movie than X-men; but at the time, everybody was talking about mutants, not vampires. Blade was recognized its merit much later; and that is, again: because of nostalgic fans who went back and rewatch the old movies removed from the baggage of their era.

I think a lot of people are trying to remove the fandom on purpose, as if we were the problem. "Star Wars is awesome, the fans are the problem! Black Panther wasn't released before because the fandom wouldn't have gone and watched it! Wonder Woman would have been released before if the fans wouldn't have been so nitpicky!" That's a big load of fresh, mushy and smelly BS. The problem was never the geeks. The problem is greedy companies who try to mask their forprofit! reasons with political correction. Critics and producers will use the geeks as scapegoats, as long as it serves as cool advertisement, which in turn, makes even more profit. I pity the fool who buys it.

*It's called hyperbole, shut up


End of the Rant
Yeah so... Blade was Marvel's first box office success. My exposure to Blade before the movie was limited. I only knew him from the Spider-man cartoon, and he was badass. So when the movie came out, I went to see it. And Blade 2, and Blade 3. I don't need to be in the midst of some socio-political movement to go see the movie because I'm a comic book/superhero fan. I also don't have to feel like Blade is "representing" me on screen to go watch him, because I'm a comic book/superhero fan.

This is the same with Wonder Woman. I saw every Batman and Superman movie in theaters since Superman Returns and Batman Returns. If they had thrown in a Wonder Woman movie or two in that time, I'd have gone to see it. I don't need a #MeToo movement to go do that. I don't need third wave feminism to go do that. It's a superhero movie. I'm going to go see it.

Same with Star Wars. I wasn't around for the OT, but I've seen all the PT and ST movies in theater, as well as Clone Wars. Now I'm being told that the movies aren't made for me *and* I'm not necessary for the franchise. Wow, kind of a slap in the face no? I didn't even know we were keeping score like that. I was just enjoying something I like. Well, that I liked, I should say.

It's so obvious that it's political. I mean... in all the time that I have enjoyed Star Wars, whether with the OT, the PT, novels, comics, SWTOR (and a little KOTOR), I have never once had to concern myself with political bull****. Now they're making bad movies and I'm being called racist and sexist, I'm being told the franchise is moving on without me, I'm no longer the target demographic. Um... wtf happened?

What happened is that the priorities have shifted. "Diversity" is now the aim of the franchise, and to criticize the new movies is to criticize diversity. And to keep the franchise hopeful and successful despite this criticism, scapegoats have to be created. (We saw the same thing happen to Sanders supporters in the 2016 election; change your mind or be labeled every -ist under the sun.)

Fixed it for you.
Lol, fair enough :smallbiggrin:.

And personally whilst I walked into WW excited with my mother and younger sister and where excited not for general based reasons we found the actress waifish and her acting bad, and the movie stupid.
Wonder Woman is SUPER overrated.

[Mightymosy]

I didn't even know Blade was from a comic until very recently.

And the movie was hugely popular with my friends - none of them black, I might add. Just didn't matter. It was a cool movie, that's why my friends liked it. End of story.



I also didn't really know Star Wars 8 was so much about politics and feminism, until I watched a couple reviews on youtube and read articles - because I was soooooo disappointed and wanted to know whether I was the only one on earth who felt logic still belonged into movies.

I kinda felt that they went for diversity and female balance - since they already did that in TFA with Rey and Finn being female and black.
And that was okay. I liked it. I never knew that I, as an old Star Wars fan, was supposed not to like the franchise anymore, and I didn't.
And i LOOOOOVED Rogue One, not despite, but mostly BECAUSE it had a cool female lead. (I am for gender equality in the real world, but with movies I just have more fun watching cool chicks, than dudes, as a general tendency - see sig).

So I was kinda baffled when I found out that TLJ in general and the Holdo fiasco specifically had a feminist agenda to it.
I just thought the movie was bad because it was bad.
I didn't know at first that it was also bad because it tried to force an agenda. And it forced it in a pretty bad way, I might add. Anyone signing up for the Holdo military? Err, wouldn't think so.......I'd rather flee, like Finn.

[Peelee]

I didn't even know Blade was from a comic until very recently.

And the movie was hugely popular with my friends - none of them black, I might add. Just didn't matter. It was a cool movie, that's why my friends liked it. End of story.



I also didn't really know Star Wars 8 was so much about politics and feminism, until I watched a couple reviews on youtube and read articles - because I was soooooo disappointed and wanted to know whether I was the only one on earth who felt logic still belonged into movies.

I kinda felt that they went for diversity and female balance - since they already did that in TFA with Rey and Finn being female and black.
And that was okay. I liked it. I never knew that I, as an old Star Wars fan, was supposed not to like the franchise anymore, and I didn't.
And i LOOOOOVED Rogue One, not despite, but mostly BECAUSE it had a cool female lead. (I am for gender equality in the real world, but with movies I just have more fun watching cool chicks, than dudes, as a general tendency - see sig).

So I was kinda baffled when I found out that TLJ in general and the Holdo fiasco specifically had a feminist agenda to it.
I just thought the movie was bad because it was bad.
I didn't know at first that it was also bad because it tried to force an agenda. And it forced it in a pretty bad way, I might add. Anyone signing up for the Holdo military? Err, wouldn't think so.......I'd rather flee, like Finn.

I feel very similarly to you, with one notable exception: I still think the move was bad just because it was bad. Ain't no feminist agenda other than more representation, which I don't care about in either direction. Yay representation, why not. Boo bad movie.

[Lethologica]

I feel like the political agenda thing gets blown up way more on both sides of the fan reaction than was in the movie itself.

[Mightymosy]

I feel like the political agenda thing gets blown up way more on both sides of the fan reaction than was in the movie itself.

Quite possibly.

But also appearantly by Disney representatives, at least if you believe the youtube commentaries. I usually don't follow such comments by producers, directors etc. I care for the movie only, not how it is made or why and with which agenda. Usually ;-)

[Devonix]

Yeah so... Blade was Marvel's first box office success. My exposure to Blade before the movie was limited. I only knew him from the Spider-man cartoon, and he was badass. So when the movie came out, I went to see it. And Blade 2, and Blade 3. I don't need to be in the midst of some socio-political movement to go see the movie because I'm a comic book/superhero fan. I also don't have to feel like Blade is "representing" me on screen to go watch him, because I'm a comic book/superhero fan.

This is the same with Wonder Woman. I saw every Batman and Superman movie in theaters since Superman Returns and Batman Returns. If they had thrown in a Wonder Woman movie or two in that time, I'd have gone to see it. I don't need a #MeToo movement to go do that. I don't need third wave feminism to go do that. It's a superhero movie. I'm going to go see it.

Same with Star Wars. I wasn't around for the OT, but I've seen all the PT and ST movies in theater, as well as Clone Wars. Now I'm being told that the movies aren't made for me *and* I'm not necessary for the franchise. Wow, kind of a slap in the face no? I didn't even know we were keeping score like that. I was just enjoying something I like. Well, that I liked, I should say.

It's so obvious that it's political. I mean... in all the time that I have enjoyed Star Wars, whether with the OT, the PT, novels, comics, SWTOR (and a little KOTOR), I have never once had to concern myself with political bull****. Now they're making bad movies and I'm being called racist and sexist, I'm being told the franchise is moving on without me, I'm no longer the target demographic. Um... wtf happened?

What happened is that the priorities have shifted. "Diversity" is now the aim of the franchise, and to criticize the new movies is to criticize diversity. And to keep the franchise hopeful and successful despite this criticism, scapegoats have to be created. (We saw the same thing happen to Sanders supporters in the 2016 election; change your mind or be labeled every -ist under the sun.)

Lol, fair enough :smallbiggrin:.

Wonder Woman is SUPER overrated.

You know I really take umbrage with the Not made for us thing that people seem to be spouting. I've been a Starwars fan since the early 80s. And to me these new movies Are made for me. There's a lot of " No true Scotsman going around. " A lot of us fans who wanted " Diversity " have been here since day one. Are we not real fans?

Calling people sexist or racist if they have legitimate reasons not to like the movie is bad yes. But what is also bad is saying that these changes are being made for the sole purpose of attracting some group of people who never were fans in the first place.

We were already here we were already fans.

[Mightymosy]

You know I really take umbrage with the Not made for us thing that people seem to be spouting. I've been a Starwars fan since the early 80s. And to me these new movies Are made for me. There's a lot of " No true Scotsman going around. " A lot of us fans who wanted " Diversity " have been here since day one. Are we not real fans?

Calling people sexist or racist if they have legitimate reasons not to like the movie is bad yes. But what is also bad is saying that these changes are being made for the sole purpose of attracting some group of people who never were fans in the first place.

We were already here we were already fans.

If you ask me, you are even a greater fan than I am.

You stick to the franchise after TLJ, while I turn my back and lose interest (at least in the "saga"; I may play PC games or watch spin-offs like "Solo").

For me, sticking to StarWars series after TLJ means true fandom (because I personally think TLJ was a disaster of a movie).

So, I'd consider you a true fan.

[Devonix]

If you ask me, you are even a greater fan than I am.

You stick to the franchise after TLJ, while I turn my back and lose interest (at least in the "saga"; I may play PC games or watch spin-offs like "Solo").

For me, sticking to StarWars series after TLJ means true fandom (because I personally think TLJ was a disaster of a movie).

So, I'd consider you a true fan.

You're a true fan too though. That's my point. You don't need to like everything to be a fan. I hate the Prequels and Rogue One with a passion. But I'm still a fan. You hate what's going on with Episode 8 but I still consider you a true fan.

The problem is that I don't get to tell someone they're not a fan because they're new. Or because they've watched the movies for years but never gone to a convention or message board.

And if something in the new movies speaks to them well to me they're a fan with just as much right to the franchise as I have.

[Scowling Dragon]

You know I really take umbrage with the Not made for us thing that people seem to be spouting. I've been a Starwars fan since the early 80s. And to me these new movies Are made for me.

And thats very noticable. But for a ton of people who where here for a very long time suddenly the franchise ISN'T There for them. And there are TONS of articles written about how

"Their Time is UP make way for the Homo Superior!"

In part also supported by the studio. So this is a battle people who really adore this movie started by throwing the first, third, fifth, twenty seventh and sixty third stone and then nepalmed the place to make sure nothing crawled out.




What happened is that the priorities have shifted. "Diversity" is now the aim of the franchise, and to criticize the new movies is to criticize diversity. And to keep the franchise hopeful and successful despite this criticism, scapegoats have to be created. (We saw the same thing happen to Sanders supporters in the 2016 election; change your mind or be labeled every -ist under the sun.)

Diversity is an easy sell. For decades megacorporations have struggles with making audiences go to thier movies. Well "Representation" and "Diversity" are REALLY easy sells.

And this is something that can be repeated forever.
The First X movie (See it or your a bigot)! Its important because we say so!
The First Y movie (See it or your a bigot)! Its important because we say so!
The First Z movie (See it or your a bigot)! Its important because we say so!
The First XY movie (See it or your a bigot)! Its important because we say so!

And so forth and so forth forever and ever and ever. And audiences have a very short attention span so you can just restart at Xs every 10 years or so.

Of course that comes with the issue of true believers but they function in a way to silence dissent thats organic and doesn't cause too much negative PR.

George Lucas saying "Well people who disliked my films are fanboys!", makes him dodgering.
Kathlin Turner saying "Well people who disliked my films are sexist fanboys!", makes him strong and unwavering in the face of oppression.

[Lethologica]

Quite possibly.

But also appearantly by Disney representatives, at least if you believe the youtube commentaries. I usually don't follow such comments by producers, directors etc. I care for the movie only, not how it is made or why and with which agenda. Usually ;-)
I looked around Google/social media and asked for examples of that last time it came up. Didn't get much. Maybe someone's got a link?

[Dr.Samurai]

I also didn't really know Star Wars 8 was so much about politics and feminism, until I watched a couple reviews on youtube and read articles - because I was soooooo disappointed and wanted to know whether I was the only one on earth who felt logic still belonged into movies.

I kinda felt that they went for diversity and female balance - since they already did that in TFA with Rey and Finn being female and black.
And that was okay. I liked it. I never knew that I, as an old Star Wars fan, was supposed not to like the franchise anymore, and I didn't.
And i LOOOOOVED Rogue One, not despite, but mostly BECAUSE it had a cool female lead. (I am for gender equality in the real world, but with movies I just have more fun watching cool chicks, than dudes, as a general tendency - see sig).

So I was kinda baffled when I found out that TLJ in general and the Holdo fiasco specifically had a feminist agenda to it.
I just thought the movie was bad because it was bad.
I didn't know at first that it was also bad because it tried to force an agenda. And it forced it in a pretty bad way, I might add. Anyone signing up for the Holdo military? Err, wouldn't think so.......I'd rather flee, like Finn.
To Lethologica's point, the movie isn't really. Yes, obviously they added more people of color, the Jedi force-user is a woman, and all the men are fumbling morons. But none of that is intrinsically bad in and of itself. You could still make a good movie with these facts in place. The problem is on the outside of the movie. It's the reaction to the criticism of the movie. It's the narrative that keeps getting pushed. And to push it, they are (deliberately) alienating fans by twisting what the criticism is about.

That's what makes it political. Because it's not about the movie, it's about guys being intimidated by women, or hating to see a black man on screen, or falling prey to rabid hero worship, etc. This is a classic political tactic. Look to comics. When America got canceled, the article read "Marvel is canceling it's only book with a queer person of color" or something along those lines. Nevermind that the book's sales were garbage and any business with any sense would have canceled the book ages ago. It's not about the business. It's about the politics.

Look to any industry where this political movement's tentacles slither in; comics, video games, movies, actual politics lol. It's always the same. Do this, or you're evil. Do this or we will demonize you. They go in, disrupt the community, and attack the justifiably angry members of that community when they fight back.

You know I really take umbrage with the Not made for us thing that people seem to be spouting.
Where's that Fry meme lol. I feel like you think you're disagreeing with me but we're actually kind of agreeing lol.

There's a lot of " No true Scotsman" going around.
Yes, and the term "fan" has been weaponized as well. It's a real shame all around.

A lot of us fans who wanted " Diversity " have been here since day one. Are we not real fans?
I don't know Devonix, I'm not the one writing all of these articles online.

Calling people sexist or racist if they have legitimate reasons not to like the movie is bad yes. But what is also bad is saying that these changes are being made for the sole purpose of attracting some group of people who never were fans in the first place.
But they *are* trying to expand who goes to see these movies. They are very vested in getting new blood into the theaters. It makes perfect sense from a business standard. ****ting on "the old guard" doesn't, but these people aren't very tactful in my experience.

We were already here we were already fans.
Did you read the article linked above? Hollywood, so the article says, was a slave to fanboys, who dominated the movie theaters and therefore determined what types of movies were being made. But that's no longer the case, so now new movies for other people can be made.

I'm not the one saying it dude. Couple that idea with the idea that critics of TLJ hate women and black people, or can never be pleased, or need to grow up, or whatever other attack you want to think of, it's pretty clear that they're shifting things in another direction.

[Devonix]

Places like youtube and other places around the net have however given rise to a rather vocal subset of " Fandom. " That does behave in that very way. There are plenty of people who hate the film because of women being involved. There are people who saw a black person being pushed as the lead back in the first trailer and got pissed.

It was all over the place so of course people will talk about it. Was it everyone Hell no. But they were out there and they're still out there. Youtube in particular is full of them. And we can't pretend they're not there.

But it is a problem when the people who just don't like a flawed film get lumped in with them because they're loud.



I didn't like the Ghost buster's reboot. But I also saw people who hated the movie just because women were involved. And I hated that I was being lumped in with them. But I had to acknowledge that those people existed.

[Dr.Samurai]

I get that Devonix. But it's annoying to read these articles that say something like this:

Is The Last Jedi perfect? No, of course no movie is. But look at these tweets from fans criticizing the new movie for its diverse cast:

"Women have ruined Star Wars"

"Rey is a Mary Sue feminist!"

"What is this fat asian doing in this movie??"

It's this focus on these handful of people that is frustrating, because it mischaracterizes the criticism of, and faults with, the movie. I much prefer the (few) articles where Rian Johnson is explaining some of the choices that he made. I don't agree with him on many, but I like to see what he was thinking so I can (maybe) better understand. But all the clickbait bull**** about racists and Abrams saying that men are afraid of women just serves to shape a narrative that isn't true. You made a flawed movie. Move on to the next. Don't use women and people of color as a ****ing shield.

But I shouldn't expect anything less from people that think Luke cowering on an island as his friends die is actually a heroic act. They'll continue to make bad movies and cower behind the blacks and the women and the asians.

[Lethologica]

I get that Devonix. But it's annoying to read these articles that say something like this:

Is The Last Jedi perfect? No, of course no movie is. But look at these tweets from fans criticizing the new movie for its diverse cast:

"Women have ruined Star Wars"

"Rey is a Mary Sue feminist!"

"What is this fat asian doing in this movie??"

It's this focus on these handful of people that is frustrating, because it mischaracterizes the criticism of, and faults with, the movie. I much prefer the (few) articles where Rian Johnson is explaining some of the choices that he made. I don't agree with him on many, but I like to see what he was thinking so I can (maybe) better understand. But all the clickbait bull**** about racists and Abrams saying that men are afraid of women just serves to shape a narrative that isn't true. You made a flawed movie. Move on to the next. Don't use women and people of color as a ****ing shield.

But I shouldn't expect anything less from people that think Luke cowering on an island as his friends die is actually a heroic act. They'll continue to make bad movies and cower behind the blacks and the women and the asians.
I mean, that goes both ways. For example, Abrams was specifically asked about "critics who decried [TLJ] for its focus on more female-centric stories"--that's a direct quote from the original article (http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/). His response was not about all critics or all men or whatever large group you consider yourself a part of. Doesn't stop critics from getting all het up about supposedly having their concerns dismissed by Abrams as feeling threatened by women. Just goes to show, everyone gets caught up in clickbait.

[Dr.Samurai]

Everyone does, it's true. But I specifically called it clickbait and I specifically called out that what upsets me is the attempt to shape the narrative. I don't talk to Abrams. Or Johnson. I talk to people online. And they read that **** and eat it right up and regurgitate it right back at me.

So, everyone is talking about this sexist racist backlash against Star Wars. And if you were to ever call Abrams out for it, he can just say "Well, I never said all people that don't like Star Wars are afraid of women. I just said that guys that don't like women in Star Wars are afraid of women, and I think that's true." Meanwhile, the entire purpose of the article that posed the question and published the answer in the first place is to frame the narrative in this way.

EDIT: Forgot to mention to look at the title of the article. To my point, it says one thing "Star Wars fans that didn't like Last Jedi are threatened by women characters" and then goes on to actually specify in the article something else (that some group that claimed to tank the RT scores, despite RT claiming that wasn't true, tweeted some complaints about adding more women characters, and this is what Abrams is responding to).

[Lethologica]

Everyone does, it's true. But I specifically called it clickbait and I specifically called out that what upsets me is the attempt to shape the narrative. I don't talk to Abrams. Or Johnson. I talk to people online. And they read that **** and eat it right up and regurgitate it right back at me.

So, everyone is talking about this sexist racist backlash against Star Wars. And if you were to ever call Abrams out for it, he can just say "Well, I never said all people that don't like Star Wars are afraid of women. I just said that guys that don't like women in Star Wars are afraid of women, and I think that's true." Meanwhile, the entire purpose of the article that posed the question and published the answer in the first place is to frame the narrative in this way.

EDIT: Forgot to mention to look at the title of the article. To my point, it says one thing "Star Wars fans that didn't like Last Jedi are threatened by women characters" and then goes on to actually specify in the article something else (that some group that claimed to tank the RT scores, despite RT claiming that wasn't true, tweeted some complaints about adding more women characters, and this is what Abrams is responding to).
I have no issue with calling out clickbait bulls*** from puff media. It never seems to stop there, though.

You called out the people who made the movie as cowering behind diversity and using women and black people as a shield and so on. Metahuman seems to think the most important thing is not to let the creators get away with blaming all criticisms on racism/misogyny, regardless of whether they ever actually did that. Scowling Dragon can't remember the name of the president of Lucasfilm, but he's absolutely sure she said people who don't like TLJ are sexist fanboys. Mightymosy didn't see TLJ as particularly political until a bunch of Youtube commentaries convinced him politics and feminism were responsible for ruining TLJ by trying to force an agenda while 'Disney representatives' made hay of the politics.

I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.

[Mechalich]

I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.

Well there's JJ Abrams here (http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/) and Daisy Ridley here (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/). This has gotten rather political so I'm not going to leave any commentary but just post the references.

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.

Kennedy

“I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way. I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'”

JJ Abrams

“‘Star Wars’ is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in ‘Star Wars,’…If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in ‘Star Wars.’ You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did [‘Star Wars: A New Hope’] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that.”

And overall they talk up a massive storm about politicicizing the narrative. They are "Talking back" against people who primarily don't exist or only exist as a small minority, and as such ignoring the very reasonable counter arguments against their creative direction.


This isn't just some stupid film, no its a MOVEMENT its about representation and ****. And I got the ladies last name wrong, I guess that undoes her pretty directly stated political actions.

[Mightymosy]

I have no issue with calling out clickbait bulls*** from puff media. It never seems to stop there, though.

You called out the people who made the movie as cowering behind diversity and using women and black people as a shield and so on. Metahuman seems to think the most important thing is not to let the creators get away with blaming all criticisms on racism/misogyny, regardless of whether they ever actually did that. Scowling Dragon can't remember the name of the president of Lucasfilm, but he's absolutely sure she said people who don't like TLJ are sexist fanboys. Mightymosy didn't see TLJ as particularly political until a bunch of Youtube commentaries convinced him politics and feminism were responsible for ruining TLJ by trying to force an agenda while 'Disney representatives' made hay of the politics.

I'm just asking for some citations to back up all these assertions about what the creators of TLJ said and did.

Please wait up! I didn't say TLJ was ruined by forcing an agenda. I say TLJH was sucky because it had, in my eyes, a couple of very bad flaws that impaired my enjoyment of a movie. The diversity of characters I actually enjoyed, and viewed as one of the few positive things about the movie.

I later found out that appearantly there was some agenda behind the movie direction/production, an agenda I was not aware of.
And I say that this agenda is poorly done, in the case of feminism. Because if you don't like women leading before watching the movie, chances are high you will find that TLJ "proves" you right, as the women in themovie are pretty poor leaders.

So it's possible that the movie was bad because the creators care more for an agenda than for a good story, and they also failed to make this agenda right. It's possible.
But my stance is that the movie was bad because of several other other things, and THEN ALSO there appearantly is a badly executed agenda that makes not much sense either.

Maybe my language wasn't up to the task. Just wanted to clarify my position.

[Lethologica]

So at last count that's three citations of the Abrams quote that I already addressed (four if I count Metahuman talking about it in the other thread); one quote from Kathleen Kennedy that specifically addressed a question about fans who were mad about Jyn Erso being the lead of Rogue One (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/movies/felicity-jones-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story.html?smid=tw-nytimesarts&smtyp=cur&_r=0) in the wake of the Ghostbusters fiasco; and Daisy Ridley having an admittedly dumb opinion about a trope term in the course of providing a much less dumb opinion about why the term doesn't fit Rey, contra the opinion of critics.

Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.


Please wait up! I didn't say TLJ was ruined by forcing an agenda. I say TLJH was sucky because it had, in my eyes, a couple of very bad flaws that impaired my enjoyment of a movie. The diversity of characters I actually enjoyed, and viewed as one of the few positive things about the movie.

I later found out that appearantly there was some agenda behind the movie direction/production, an agenda I was not aware of.
And I say that this agenda is poorly done, in the case of feminism. Because if you don't like women leading before watching the movie, chances are high you will find that TLJ "proves" you right, as the women in themovie are pretty poor leaders.

So it's possible that the movie was bad because the creators care more for an agenda than for a good story, and they also failed to make this agenda right. It's possible.
But my stance is that the movie was bad because of several other other things, and THEN ALSO there appearantly is a badly executed agenda that makes not much sense either.

Maybe my language wasn't up to the task. Just wanted to clarify my position.
Ah, the 'also'. I see. I honestly don't think it has a substantial effect on the placement of your comments in my argument, but thanks for the clarification.

[Zevox]

I feel very similarly to you, with one notable exception: I still think the move was bad just because it was bad. Ain't no feminist agenda other than more representation, which I don't care about in either direction. Yay representation, why not. Boo bad movie.

I feel like the political agenda thing gets blown up way more on both sides of the fan reaction than was in the movie itself.
Agreed. From what little I've heard of the politics of the filmmakers, I'm frankly on board with them. That doesn't make the movie any better though. The problems with the characters and plot exist regardless of any intentions the filmmakers had or have. Sure, they should ignore anyone who complains about the new main character being a woman, that's obvious. But it's also not the what most people criticize about the film, at least not unless the criticisms I've seen are a vastly smaller proportion of the whole than they appear to be to me.

[Mechalich]

Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.


People are primarily mad at the creators for making a bad movie and then subsequently taking no action to address any of the issues with the film or the fan response in any way and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films. Any and all whiffs of controversy on any wavelength whatsoever merely fan the flames. Beyond that further discussion of this topic is against forum rules.

[Mightymosy]

So at last count that's three citations of the Abrams quote that I already addressed (four if I count Metahuman talking about it in the other thread); one quote from Kathleen Kennedy that specifically addressed a question about fans who were mad about Jyn Erso being the lead of Rogue One (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/movies/felicity-jones-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story.html?smid=tw-nytimesarts&smtyp=cur&_r=0) in the wake of the Ghostbusters fiasco; and Daisy Ridley having an admittedly dumb opinion about a trope term in the course of providing a much less dumb opinion about why the term doesn't fit Rey, contra the opinion of critics.

Seriously? This is your best outrage bait? This is what's supposed to make me believe the creators are out to silence or deflect all criticism by calling it racist or sexist? Because, what, they called the sexists sexist (but not anyone else), and because Ridley called a term sexist in the course of directly addressing the criticism behind the term? Why are y'all getting mad at the creators instead of getting mad at dumb 'mine controversy for clicks' questions from journalists? Jee-zus. I bet you think tabloid journalism sucks, but here you are demonstrating that it works.


Ah, the 'also'. I see. I honestly don't think it has a substantial effect on the placement of your comments in my argument, but thanks for the clarification.

Sorry. What do you want from me?

[zimmerwald1915]

and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films
Anyone who thinks this was meant to slight the fans is seriously overestimating their place in Disney's priorities. Their aim is to make at least a movie per year per franchise (following the Marvel model), on time and under budget. Johnson is good at on time and under budget.

[Lethologica]

Sorry. What do you want from me?
That's an odd way to put it. I don't think your clarification is anything to apologize for. If I want anything from you, I suppose it's sone of the comments or commentaries that informed your impression of the political agenda.

[GloatingSwine]

People are primarily mad at the creators for making a bad movie and then subsequently taking no action to address any of the issues with the film or the fan response in any way and in fact doubling down by hiring Rian Johnson to direct an additional three Star Wars films. Any and all whiffs of controversy on any wavelength whatsoever merely fan the flames. Beyond that further discussion of this topic is against forum rules.

The assertion "it's a bad movie" is super vague and always really poorly articulated, usually hanging on clomping nerdism about Star Wars minutiae rather than actual understanding of film though.

If you want people to believe it's a bad movie (and most people do not, as evidenced by its high Cinemascore rating), you need to do some work.

[Mightymosy]

Everyone wondering why some of us "TLJ-haters" have a thin skin to aggressive "counter-criticism", I refer you to the above post.

To clarify: NO, not EVERY criticism is ALWAYS badly written. Yes, mine may be. Sorry, I'm no English.
But I have read many exceptionally well-written negative reviews of TLJ in this forum. So I consider the above statement as counterproductive and frankly insulting. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ suffers from "nerdism"; whatever that may be.

[Dr.Samurai]

@Lethologica: I don't have links to give you because it's just my opinion. Obviously Abrams and Kennedy have never said that they'll duck from criticism by letting the racist/sexist fanboy meme play out online. But I do think that's what's happening. They do these interviews and get asked about the only criticism that matters, and that's the "I hate diversity" criticism.

To his credit (or maybe he was told to, I don't know) Rian Johnson has actually fielded questions in articles about particular complaints fans have had (about Luke as an example), so at least he's addressing some of the criticism (although it's not really handled like criticism). But he's also said that he wouldn't change a single thing in the movie and would do it again the same way. So they stand behind the movie they made and the themes they went with, and the only criticism that gets asked about and answered to is the fanboys hate women stuff.

You can catch me on using the word "only" too if you want. I mean, I don't mean "only", it's a figure of speech.

Everyone wondering why some of us "TLJ-haters" have a thin skin to aggressive "counter-criticism", I refer you to the above post.

To clarify: NO, not EVERY criticism is ALWAYS badly written. Yes, mine may be. Sorry, I'm no English.
But I have read many exceptionally well-written negative reviews of TLJ in this forum. So I consider the above statement as counterproductive and frankly insulting. Not everyone who dislikes TLJ suffers from "nerdism"; whatever that may be.
Mightymosy, it's not worth getting insulted over. GloatingSwine is just a person on the internet like all the rest of us, and his opinion is obviously not grounded in reality and worth even considering. Anyone that's participated in these threads no that the complaints have been articulated ad nauseum. Just brush that **** off your shoulders :smallcool:.

[Mightymosy]

That's an odd way to put it. I don't think your clarification is anything to apologize for. If I want anything from you, I suppose it's sone of the comments or commentaries that informed your impression of the political agenda.

Well, I have read so much and watched so much.....but I think this was first:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

Note the title of the article:
"Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017"


In it, Laura Dern says something about her role, and she days something Rian Johnson had been saying.

Before that, I simply thought she was a stupid leader figure that made little sense to me.
After that article, I first thought that well, it's just vanityfair's opinion, right? (although they do quote an actress of the movie who says something the director has said......one can guess whether it was true or not).

Then I clicked through various other articles that were linked in that article, and in other articles and so forth and so forth.

I eventually landed at videos from this lady (who calls herself feminist):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jY010oKl7c&t=72s
(there are quite a couple vids by her - wanring: offensive language :smallwink: )

Once you dive into youtube, there are TONS of videos, although quite a lot are - to be blunt - made by a*sholes who I don't want to be associated with, so it's a bit of work to separate the good from the bad.
For example, this one shows how Kathleen Keneddy praises Johnson for writing awesome female characters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhE3Ox9pdLw

Please note again that I don't despise that mission - I despise the execution.
I don't think Rian Johnson's characters are awesome. Neither the male nor the female ones, for that matter.

There is that picture:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarchy/comments/7lpobw/the_force_is_female_according_to_kathleen_kennedy/
(if it doesn't work, just google "the force is female")

I mean, what is that about?

If that is not about promoting women, then what is it?

Note again that I WANT more female leads in movies, if only for the selfish reason that I like watching them (*kiss* Rogue One).

So, I can't be entirely sure what Kathleen Keneddy or Rian Johnson really think about, it seems they do have an agenda to put more women into movies. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.
What I don't know is how much into "feminist" territory they want to go. "The force is female" can be a slogan "Take SW away from men!", or it can simply mean "Yay, we finally did it an have Jedi as well!". It's hard to tell. I think it rather leans in the latter, personally, but who knows?
That's why I brought that aspect up many many pages ago when we were talking about the Holdo fiasco.
The Holdo story (see vanityfair) was the first instance where I really wondered whether there actually was some feminist agenda behind the camera. Because her character just didn't make sense to me - why invent her when you have Leia and Admiral Ackbar at your disposal, both characters many people wanted to see more of?

And then there is the problem that many people (myself included) have complained about a lot of problems with the movie that have NOTHING to do with feminism. But the movie makers responded in a way that almost completely ignored all the real problems and instead argued about gender stuff, and how people who didn't like the movie were sexist or whatever.

For example, my two main problems have nothing to do with gender at all.
1) Why is Rian Johnson treating Luke Skywalker so insanely badly?
-> Rian Johnson later sorta gave an answerm and I think that answer sucked big time.
2) The entire Casino trip made not the slightest sense, neither cinematically, nor story-wise, nor by logic
-> and this is never discussed, to my knowledge


To sum it up: I still don't know how much feminist agenda influenced the movie being bad. I "know" that the creators wanted more cool women - which I agree with - and put more cool women in TLJ - which I think failed big time.


PS: Sorry for the mess - it's hard to remember where I got what from, and to find all these youtube movies and articles again.


To lighten things up:
For everyone who hasn't seen it yet, the HISHE people have made a movie that happens to be 300%* better than the original, even though it's only crappy cartoon graphics and only 5 minutes. Enjoy :smallsmile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

(the first couple minutes are mostly comedy, but the second half is epic!)

*except the Porg scene - that one was actually better in the original movie :smallfrown:

[Jayngfet]

So, I can't be entirely sure what Kathleen Keneddy or Rian Johnson really think about, it seems they do have an agenda to put more women into movies. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.
What I don't know is how much into "feminist" territory they want to go. "The force is female" can be a slogan "Take SW away from men!", or it can simply mean "Yay, we finally did it an have Jedi as well!". It's hard to tell. I think it rather leans in the latter, personally, but who knows?

You know I think people would be more charitable if every other new character wasn't a surly british brunette woman who happens to also have the moral authority. Which is kind of a distinct difference. In the original trilogy Han could be sardonic and was rough around the edges at first but most main characters were, to an extent at least, trusting people who weren't overly violent. As whiny as Anakin was he still wasn't immediately hostile in the way newer characters are. Rey and Jyn meanwhile basically leap to violence first and the story always emphasises that they're very good at it. When you most visible characters have an attitude problem and their films insist they are right to have a bad attitude, people won't be charitable regarding your attitude. Of course for all it matters Kathleen Kennedy could just be really into british people.

That, and there was never a ban on female jedi. Luke was a girl in early film drafts. Anakin and Luke were both men because of the specific relationship that the OT required them to have. Leia was implied to become a jedi after VI ended and the only reason she isn't is muh iconic character who can't actually develop. There were a large number of female jedi in the prequels. Hell, George added in more because he liked their specific designs and when he was bought out he was making an entire video game because he liked a female design from some comics that much. If you wanted to get technical if you compiled a list of the first half dozen or so force sensitives in the expanded universe, exactly half of them would be female and that ratio never really changed.

Celebrating there being a female jedi is like celebrating women being allowed to wear tube socks. If you want to celebrate you can, but it was never a thing that was banned to begin with.

[Anonymouswizard]

and Daisy Ridley here (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/).

Mutter mutter we really need to make Gary Stu a more will known term.

So never being wrong, having whatever skills she needs to get out of a situation, and learning force powers she's seen once (and one she's potentially not seen) is must something that moist characters do? Then in the second film she manages to redeem Luke, remove the First Order's only decent leader, shows equal force strength to a character implied in the last film to be stronger than Vader, and so on.

Then in the next film we see that Rey's flaws are being too stubborn minded and making bad decisions. Well, in the way that some characters are flawed by being too stubborn and then having that stubbornness save the day, at least in my opinion. While at the same time being able to use lightsaber forms without training.

I actually don't mind the character of Rey, but won't like her until I feel like she makes a mistake that comes back to bore them in the rear (as Finn did, and I believe as Poe did).


The assertion "it's a bad movie" is super vague and always really poorly articulated, usually hanging on clomping nerdism about Star Wars minutiae rather than actual understanding of film though.

It's a bad movie (and sequel) because the plot directly contradicts both itself and it's direct predecessor. The First Order has pulled the resources to dominate the galaxy out of it's arse, but within the film itself they're unable to call their allies, but don't worry our characters can call a friend when they need advice! Some scenes are also stupid, need I reminds you of the space bombers, and there's about a hundred (okay, more like ten) reasons why the chase setup shouldn't have worked, without even going into nerd territory sand just taking the least two films.


Also Disney, I love that you made a diverse Start Wars movie. Maybe next time you can make one where the gay couple says together, is that alright? I like Asians as much as the next xenophile, but that doesn't mean they're automatically better.

[Mightymosy]

You know I think people would be more charitable if every other new character wasn't a surly british brunette woman who happens to also have the moral authority. Which is kind of a distinct difference. In the original trilogy Han could be sardonic and was rough around the edges at first but most main characters were, to an extent at least, trusting people who weren't overly violent. As whiny as Anakin was he still wasn't immediately hostile in the way newer characters are. Rey and Jyn meanwhile basically leap to violence first and the story always emphasises that they're very good at it. When you most visible characters have an attitude problem and their films insist they are right to have a bad attitude, people won't be charitable regarding your attitude. Of course for all it matters Kathleen Kennedy could just be really into british people.

That, and there was never a ban on female jedi. Luke was a girl in early film drafts. Anakin and Luke were both men because of the specific relationship that the OT required them to have. Leia was implied to become a jedi after VI ended and the only reason she isn't is muh iconic character who can't actually develop. There were a large number of female jedi in the prequels. Hell, George added in more because he liked their specific designs and when he was bought out he was making an entire video game because he liked a female design from some comics that much. If you wanted to get technical if you compiled a list of the first half dozen or so force sensitives in the expanded universe, exactly half of them would be female and that ratio never really changed.

Celebrating there being a female jedi is like celebrating women being allowed to wear tube socks. If you want to celebrate you can, but it was never a thing that was banned to begin with.

Oh come on.
How many female Jedi do you really see doing something in the prequels?
I admit that I was wrong in the sense that I didn't remember a single one being shown on screen apart from one in front of the Jedi temple.

But that doesn't change the fact that no female Jedi had a *role* in the prequel movies.

I bet that most viewers wouldnt remember there being any female Jedi, just like me.

How many sentences were said by female Jedi in all of the prequels?
How many names of female Jedi can we learn from the movies?
How many lightsabre duels with female Jedi can we watch in the movies.

Maybe George Lucas liked the design of fem-Jedi, but the prequel movies were a sausage festivity.

[Scowling Dragon]

I feel the whole representation thing is a big bag of nothing. Where I come from people draw inspiration from actions of people, not from the boardroom products of mass consumption entertainment media (And have more women in STEM Fields despite having fewer programs encouraging it and by far more "Limiting" social norms).

Its just this massive ploy to SELL you stuff. Sell you dependency and your identity.

[Dr.Samurai]

Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.

Since Poe is the hispanic in the movie, I guess he is representing me. Should I be proud that there is a hispanic in the movie? Should I be offended that the hispanic guy gets all of his war pals killed?

Or should I just not give a **** because it doesn't actually matter??

[Peelee]

Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.

Well damn. My son is a quarter Korean and a quarter Austrian. It's gonna be pretty damn hard to find someone he relates to, apparently.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well damn. My son is a quarter Korean and a quarter Austrian. It's gonna be pretty damn hard to find someone he relates to, apparently.

Im Slavic blooded. Where does that put me again then?

[Peelee]

Im Slavic blooded. Where does that put me again then?

In the "sucks to be you, if you want to relate to someone" category.

[Scowling Dragon]

In the "sucks to be you, if you want to relate to someone" category.
But the people onscreen share my skin color (Therefore my personal values, history, language, culture, background)! Therefore I identify with them!

The only Slavic people I see onscreen are either mafia thugs or guys with massive chain guns.....Damn that explains my career ambitions I suppose.

[Lethologica]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jY010oKl7c&t=72s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhE3Ox9pdLw
https://www.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarchy/comments/7lpobw/the_force_is_female_according_to_kathleen_kennedy/

To sum it up: I still don't know how much feminist agenda influenced the movie being bad. I "know" that the creators wanted more cool women - which I agree with - and put more cool women in TLJ - which I think failed big time.
Thanks for the links and explanation. Naturally, I fall very much on the "Force is Female" shirt celebrating cool women rather than taking Star Wars away from men. And I'm a little less inclined to say that putting cool women in TLJ failed, so much as that the cool women and cool men were both hamstrung by a poorly-conceived plot. But I do basically agree with your summation.


So never being wrong, having whatever skills she needs to get out of a situation, and learning force powers she's seen once (and one she's potentially not seen) is must something that moist characters do? Then in the second film she manages to redeem Luke, remove the First Order's only decent leader, shows equal force strength to a character implied in the last film to be stronger than Vader, and so on.
In TFA Rey was surprisingly good at a lot of stuff arguably to the point of contrivance/Sue-dom, and in TLJ there's still an issue with how the movie presents Rey's mastery of the Force, but please let's not extrapolate that to the entire character when TLJ goes in a markedly different direction.

Rey spends at least half of TLJ being wrong, from "Every word in that sentence was wrong" to her conviction that she could redeem Kylo by going to the Supremacy. The one thing I would criticize on that front is that the consequences for her mistakes are downplayed--going to the dark place on Ahch-To didn't result in anything bad happening, for example. It's not like I wanted yet another Jedi amputee, but something more than that nebulous vision would have been nice.

Also, Rey was not the principal agent of Snoke's death. Kylo was. Rey's only role in that was, as it turned out, an unwitting distraction. If anything, the movie doesn't give Rey enough agency in TLJ--but that's the opposite of a Mary Sue criticism.


Kathleen Kennedy specifically said that girls can't relate to Luke, and boys can't relate to Leia. I think she's dead wrong, but it's what she believes and it's clear that's informing their decisions.

Since Poe is the hispanic in the movie, I guess he is representing me. Should I be proud that there is a hispanic in the movie? Should I be offended that the hispanic guy gets all of his war pals killed?

Or should I just not give a **** because it doesn't actually matter??
Again, the actual thing she says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eg87CszLGs) is very different. In fact, this time it's completely the opposite: Kennedy is talking about how there used to be an assumption about boys identifying with boys and girls identifying with girls (which is, admittedly, probably an overstatement), and how studios are waking up to the fact that little girls and little boys do identify with lots of different characters of different genders/races/etc.

Fans are literally interpreting Kennedy saying that girls can relate to Luke as saying that girls can't relate to Luke. Then Peelee only hears the secondhand version and now this is his impression of Kathleen Kennedy, regardless of the facts. This is why I'm always asking for citations.

[Peelee]

Again, the actual thing she says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eg87CszLGs) is very different. In fact, this time it's completely the opposite: Kennedy is talking about how there used to be an assumption about boys identifying with boys and girls identifying with girls, and how studios are waking up to the fact that little girls and little boys do identify with lots of different characters of different genders/races/etc.

Fans are literally interpreting Kennedy saying that girls can relate to Luke as saying that girls can't relate to Luke. Then Peelee only hears the secondhand version and now this is his impression of Kathleen Kennedy, regardless of the facts. This is why I'm always asking for citations.

This was a.) great what she really said, and 2.) a very strong case for citations. Thanks!

[Lord Joeltion]

Oh come on.
How many female Jedi do you really see doing something in the prequels?
I admit that I was wrong in the sense that I didn't remember a single one being shown on screen apart from one in front of the Jedi temple.

But that doesn't change the fact that no female Jedi had a *role* in the prequel movies.

I bet that most viewers wouldnt remember there being any female Jedi, just like me.

Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

*Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.


How many sentences were said by female Jedi in all of the prequels?
How many names of female Jedi can we learn from the movies?
How many lightsabre duels with female Jedi can we watch in the movies.

The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think

-The one big battle scene on the arena; which included similar parts of both genders
-The skirimish with Sidious. That one was a sausage fest, and a clear missed chance to make female jedi appear awesome.

[Friv]

The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think

So... your argument is that if you remove all of the main characters and all of the supporting characters, there aren't any more characters worth mentioning?

[Lethologica]

Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

*Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.
Any major character from the films is more popular than any major character from TCW/Rebels. I would wager that Jar Jar is more popular among fans than Ahsoka, in the sense of more people knowing about and liking him. Having a female Jedi as a film protagonist is thus a significant step despite the existence of TCW.

And the prequels were just a sausage-fest in general. After Padme (and her double), the next most significant female character was...the discount assassin? The head librarian? One of the Jedi cut down in the Order 66 montage?

[Mightymosy]

Shouldn't a "susage fest" imply that there are way more than three sausages at a time involved? Few Jedi had any lines to begin with; and I think screentime between the "cameo" aparitions between female and male jedis recognizable to fans is comparable. Most Jedi on the background don't have any lines, but a great deal of them were female in most scenes.

That's not even counting that most Jedi in the Clone Wars (the only canonical source for more Jedi other than the four males* and Yoda) with names and protagonism were female. The majority of sausage-fest was more evident in the other groups (spearatist leaders, senators, generals and soldiers, etc). The Jedi characters were tightly restricted by the OT, so there was little chance for Lucas to include more females without making an even bigger mess out of the movies. Even then, that disregars the importance of TCW series who had a visible majority (IDK if it's an actual majority) of female protagonists. In fact, I would argue TCW is a better representation of the Jedi as a whole, because the prequels showed too little about the Order to begin with. So, while I grant that obviously Rey is the first female protagonist in a movie to ever wield a LS; the assertion that she is the first fem-Jedi character is misleading. In a movie? Maybe. But she isn't neither the first protagonist, nor the first to wield a saber on screen; not the one the fans were craving for. Ashoka is probably more popular among fans than Rey.

*Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace. Those are the only ones that I remember off the top of my head having more than 2 seconds one-liners.



The problem with questions like the above is that 0/0 is still equality. Forget about OT Jedi and the two who needed to be male because of cast (Neeson and Jackson) See:

How many sentences were said by Jedi in all of the prequels? Zero
How many names of Jedi can we learn from the movies? Memorable? Zero
How many lightsabre duels with Jedi can we watch in the movies. Two, I think

-The one big battle scene on the arena; which included similar parts of both genders
-The skirimish with Sidious. That one was a sausage fest, and a clear missed chance to make female jedi appear awesome.

OT means ANH, ESB and RotJ, right?
So we ignore Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke and Leia, right?

So let's see:
Qui Gon: Male
Mace Windu: Male
"Tower-Head-Guy" (from High Council): male
Mace Windu's strike force: male

Let's look at the evil side as well (I'll ignore Palpatine for obvious reasons):
Darth Maul: male
Count Dooku: male

So, talking "important" characters only (i.e. people with names and who say lines), i'd say it's 2/2 misses on the light side, and 2/2 misses on the dark side of the force, for a score of 4/4 misses.

Have I forgot someone important?

For fun, I also checked the Jedi High Council on wookipedia:
Yes, there are actually a couple females in there - they appear in the movies for about a second each - or something like that.
If I counted correctly, the Jedi High Council is 3:10 (excluding the "set" members Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan)

ETA:

Any major character from the films is more popular than any major character from TCW/Rebels. I would wager that Jar Jar is more popular among fans than Ahsoka, in the sense of more people knowing about and liking him. Having a female Jedi as a film protagonist is thus a significant step despite the existence of TCW.

And the prequels were just a sausage-fest in general. After Padme (and her double), the next most significant female character was...the discount assassin? The head librarian? One of the Jedi cut down in the Order 66 montage?

Hey, you forgot Shmi :-)
I tend to as well. Virgin Marys just don't ring with me :smallwink:

[Peelee]

wookipedia

https://i.imgur.com/5Wa7G6L.gif

[Lethologica]

ETA:


Hey, you forgot Shmi :-)
I tend to as well. Virgin Marys just don't ring with me :smallwink:
Whoops. I guess I'm just following the characters' example, haha.

[Devonix]

About representation. I will say it absolutely matters. l was a black nerd growing up in the 80s. I loved star was startrek lord of the rings. David edding. Lots of stuff.

But while I could imagine myself in certain stories. I always felt alone in a lot of them. And it was incredibility common vto be made fun of for people saying I shouldn't even like those things because I was black.

I had friends who's parents pushed them away from fantasy band SciFi because of those reasons but luckily my own family encouraged it.

Still I'd latch onto many characters of color in movies and books. Because it made me feel like it wasn't wrong to like these things. That I too belonged in those worlds.

So trust me representation damn well matters.

[Peelee]

About representation. I will say it absolutely matters. l was a black nerd growing up in the 80s. I loved star was startrek lord of the rings. David edding. Lots of stuff.

But while I could imagine myself in certain stories. I always felt alone in a lot of them. And it was incredibility common vto be made fun of for people saying I shouldn't even like those things because I was black.

I had friends who's parents pushed them away from fantasy band SciFi because of those reasons but luckily my own family encouraged it.

Still I'd latch onto many characters of color in movies and books. Because it made me feel like it wasn't wrong to like these things. That I too belonged in those worlds.

So trust me representation damn well matters.

I don't think anyone is saying representation doesn't matter (and if they are, they're wrong). It's just that saying "X cannot identify with Y" is an unjust thing to say as a blanket statement (though it's worth noting that also was not said by any notable person as it pertains to this, at least not in this thread and not where it wasn't refuted).

That said, I completely see where you're coming from. For instance, in Stranger Things Season 2, when they dress up as Ghostbusters, Mike shouldn't have just assumed that Lucas would be Winston, especially win Lucas didn't agree to it. Sure, it's actually a good physical representation of the main cast, but Lucas clearly didn't like Winston; Lucas wanted to be one of the scientists, and Mike pigeonholed him because he was black (although c'mon Lucas, Winston was hilarious and had one of the best lines. And in the same vein, Mike could have easily been Winston). Regardless of how Lucas felt, the underlying unspoken assumption was that he would be Winston, which he didn't want, and that really sucks.

[Devonix]

Its never that I couldn't identify with a different race or gender. Its SciFi. But actually having someone that looks like me and had an actual impact on the story as a hero. Well unless you've actually felt it. Its hard to describe how it makes you feel.

Especially as a kid.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't think anyone is saying representation doesn't matter (and if they are, they're wrong).

I am. Different individuals make for different stories I suppose, but I find the representation thing to be a massive crock. Its about some kind of vague social change or vauge sense of feelgood justice with no impact on the real world.
This is I feel something that has been IMPOSED. Repeat something ad-naseum and eventually, people will believe they need it. Most of Homeopathic medicine exists for this very reason.

Now I do not believe in racial based discrimination when it comes too casting or such but an expectation of somekind of "vauge" need representation is just such rubbish in my mind.

[Mightymosy]

OT means ANH, ESB and RotJ, right?
So we ignore Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke and Leia, right?

So let's see:
Qui Gon: Male
Mace Windu: Male
"Tower-Head-Guy" (from High Council): male
Mace Windu's strike force: male

Let's look at the evil side as well (I'll ignore Palpatine for obvious reasons):
Darth Maul: male
Count Dooku: male

So, talking "important" characters only (i.e. people with names and who say lines), i'd say it's 2/2 misses on the light side, and 2/2 misses on the dark side of the force, for a score of 4/4 misses.

Have I forgot someone important?

For fun, I also checked the Jedi High Council on wookipedia:
Yes, there are actually a couple females in there - they appear in the movies for about a second each - or something like that.
If I counted correctly, the Jedi High Council is 3:10 (excluding the "set" members Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan)


Hey that was fun. Let's do some more.
Let's look at the female characters that we have (the ones who say more than one sentence).

Padme: needed to be female (Anakin's wife and mother of Leia and Luke)
Shmi: needed to be female (Anakin's mother)
Padme's double: needed to be female to perform as double
The female assassin: I think she already is a stretch. She is neither important nor clearly female (shapehifter).

So to summarizes what we have so far:

All female characters are female because they needed to be female.
All characters that could have worked with either gender were decided to be male.

It's Hollywood at its finest :-)
I don't think it's bad intent, myself. I think it's just the usual "default gender = male" at work.



Re: Representation
The funny thing is how representation could be so easy to achieve, with little or no downside in most media. But for some reason, producers rather ignore huge parts of the population and do without their money.
My favourite example: Magic the Gathering. I played the sh*t out of that game, and it is a great game.
A huge part of its success is that had - from the get-go - a lot of (soft) cheesecake for young male adults *cough angels cough cough*
On the other hand, the number of *hot* male pictures - to attract potential female buyers - can be counted with one hand. After 20 years. Yes, they *try* to make MtG attractive for girls and women since a couple of years. Yes, there are quite a few female players these days. But the number one attractor that drew SOOOO many people into the game? Nope. Let's see if 25th anniverary changes things....

Same with Star Wars. Girls find it boring to watch the boys play. And that's exactly what happens in Star Wars I-VI. We were just talking about the prequels: What doesn Padme acitvely do in these 3 movies? I'd personally argue that she is *little* more than window dressing after the palace raid in Phantom Menace.

[Peelee]

I am. Different individuals make for different stories I suppose, but I find the representation thing to be a massive crock. Its about some kind of vague social change or vauge sense of feelgood justice with no impact on the real world.
This is I feel something that has been IMPOSED. Repeat something ad-naseum and eventually, people will believe they need it. Most of Homeopathic medicine exists for this very reason.

Now I do not believe in racial based discrimination when it comes too casting or such but an expectation of somekind of "vauge" need representation is just such rubbish in my mind.

I don't really give a hoot about it; one could write a book and roll a die to determine race, gender, etc., and if it's a good book, I won't much care. If other people care, then I see nothing wrong with it. And other people absolutely care. SMBC is a perfect analogy of this; there are all sorts of people in the comic, and I never even noticed there were things like, for instance, interracial homosexual couples in a strip about relationships until it was pointed out to me. If it makes interracial homosexual people excited that they can be represented, yay for that, who the hell am I to say boo?

[Scowling Dragon]

If other people care, then I see no nothing wrong with it. And other people absolutely care. SMBC is a perfect analogy of this; there are all sorts of people in the comic, and I never even noticed there were things like, for instance, interracial homosecual couples in a strip about relationships until it was pointed out to me. If it makes interracial homosexual people excited that they can be represented, yay for that, who the hell am I to say boo?

Because representation is represenation. Is that Women to fragile of a personality? Sexist. Or not sexist, or tripple ripple, subversion sexist. Is that mexican too mexican or not mexican enough?
Im not against any character, Im against the DEMANDS of representation as well as the belief that representation is somekind of social good (When there really is no evidence for such).

Again, I think this is mainly an issue thats been enforced by social groups that make billions of dollars from this industry (And Im not kidding here, I worked in such an envrionment and "Social Progress" is talked about in the way somebody talks about a salmon farm). It is in their best interest that these conflicts are never resolved and move to heat the flames of war at every opportunity. Their jobs literally depends on your strife so why would they ever sell you the cure instead of a placebo.

I never had an issue with SMBC, and good on them to make whatever content they want. But what if somebody just makes a ...say game say...based on polish Legends or something. So does it now have to have black people in it?

Does it mean that Mexican stories have to have Spaniards in it for representation perposes? Of course then this falls into abstract notions of justice and no scientifically recorded social benefit.

[Devonix]

Does it mean that Mexican stories have to have Spaniards in it for representation perposes? Of course then this falls into abstract notions of justice and no scientifically recorded social benefit.

No one really asking for representation is asking for this. One of the biggest issues I have is that when Representation does happen. Authors get badgered for " Pandering " People say " Let people write about whoever they want to write about without people forcing inclusion or representation.

But what usually happens is that an author writes a story using inclusion or representation and people complain about it saying that they're giving in to pressure. If they really cared about author freedom they'd shut up and let them put however many gay, lesbian, trans, Minnesotans, whatever they want in their story.

[Scowling Dragon]

No one really asking for representation is asking for this.

Yes, they are.