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Tyrael
2007-08-27, 01:43 PM
I would post this in the Builder Thread, but for some reason builds there don't get taken on very often. So, I'm starting my own thing. Anyway, I'm looking for some build advice.

The general character concept is a draconic-flavored Lizardfolk tank with a very, very, very big hammer that hits things really, really hard. I'm looking for a level 13 build with tons and tons of STR. Equipment can be pretty much anything within WBL (110,000 for a 13th-lvl chara). Personally I'm thinking about the Greathammer from MMIV, but maybe there's something bigger and badder? Possibly a Large (or even Huge?) Greathammer via Monkey Grip. His general aim is to hit things as hard as he possibly can, so Leap Attack is a natural pick, I think.

House Rules: Lizardfolk is LA+0, without the Monstrous Humanoid levels, as well as nerfing the Nat Armor bonus down to +2 instead of +5. Lizardfolk is eligible for Dragon Wings (RotD).


Ideas?

AslanCross
2007-08-27, 04:32 PM
If you can use Bloodline variant rules, the Titan bloodline gets the ability to wield an oversized weapon practically for free. Doesn't come until later, though. Otherwise, Monkey Grip should suffice. Improved Critical and Power Critical will help you make the most out of that juicy 19-20/x4 crit.

Power Attack is a must for a two-handed weapon. If you're going to be flying a lot, taking Flyby Attack eventually will help.

What class will you be taking? Barbarian sounds good if you're just going to be smashing stuff. If you're going to do a lot of jumping around the battlefield, levels in Scout will add some Skirmish damage to your massive weapon. A few levels of fighter will increase your feat repertoire, so that shouldn't really hurt either. If you're taking Fighter/Scout, the Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack tree would be very helpful.

For truly massive damage, Frenzied Berserker---but of course, that's probably going to end up in the messy and painful death of your party members. >_<

The stat increases from the Dragon Disciple class will be useful, but that requires some Sorcerer/Bard stuff, so that may not be your cup of tea.

Kizara
2007-08-27, 06:21 PM
I dont know about lizardfolk or big hammers (check out the goliath greathammer in the races of stone though), but as for imba ability to hit stuff:

bar 1/ftr 2/hexblade 3/frenzied beserker 7

Have an ally that can cast Calm Emoitions, and chose to auto-fail your save. No more friendly-fire problems for you! :)

Must-get: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating rage, Destructive Rage, Leap Attack.
Consider: Improved Sunder, Extra Rage, Great Cleave, EWP (bigass hammer thing you find).

Buy a Battle Belt from the MIC, use its ability to gain another full-round action as you leap-charge. Deal a full round attack + initial hit with your leap attack bonuses.

Also from the MIC:

Heartseeking Amulet: Attack as melee touch 3/day.
3,000

Reciprocal Bracers: 2/day you can auto-threat in response to someone that criticaled or sneak-attacked you.
5,000

Scarab of Invulnerbility: 1/day Complete immunity to damage for 1 round.
40,000

Scout's Headband: +2 to spot checks. Can grant dark vision, See Invis or True Seeing for good durations.
3,400

Skirmisher Boots: 2/day can make an additional attack at full bonus if you move more then 10 feet.
3,200

True Strike Gauntlets: 1/day gain +20 insight bonus to your next attack roll.
3,500



And for those that advocate Shock Trooper: READ Heedless charge, it DOES NOT give you an AC bonus, it allows you to have a greater PENALTY to AC instead of to your attack roll. It's called Heedless charge afterall, not Defensive Charge.

Solo
2007-08-27, 06:24 PM
One thing about monkey grip..... IT'S A TRAP!


enlarge person (Cleric, Strength domain) will allow you to become one size category larger to wild weapons, if you want.

Damionte
2007-08-27, 07:35 PM
I'll put some work into this idea and get back to you a little later tonight. Are there any RP character elements you're looking to incorporate?

What books can you use? Is this for an actual game or just a thought experiment? Rolling method? Any LA reastrictions? What alignments?

Xaros
2007-08-27, 08:23 PM
If weapon size is important, there are the Strongarm Bracers in Magic Item Compendium (page 139). They cost 6000 gp and let you equip weapons as if one size category larger. It says that it does not stack with Powerful Build, but I don't know if it works with Enlarge Person or Expansion.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-27, 08:57 PM
Well, you're already going to be a lizardman, or I'd have suggested Half-Giant for Powerful Build, but if you're wanting Hulk Smash...

Ranger 1/PsiWar 4/Slayer x

Here's the deal:

Ranger 1: BAB, free Tracking feat, and max out Dungeoneering.

PsiWar4: gets you nifty abilities and bonus feats for the loss of only a single point of BAB. Powers of note: Expansion (1st level power, increases your size category), Psionic Lion's Pounce (make full attack on charge).

Slayer x: 9/10 manifesting and full BAB are reason enough to do this. Later on, immunity to mind-affecting is icing on the cake. Even at 3rd level, (8th character level) you get a +4 vs all mind-affecting stuff. At 6th level, you get permanent Nondetection too (11th character level). By 9th level (14th character level) you are immune to mind-affecting.

With the bonus feats from PsiWar, you could easily be sporting whatever weapon you want to choose, with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leaping Charge for maximum damage output on charge, manifesting Psionic Lion's Pounce to get a FULL attack on a charge. Damage output with a huge hammer, I believe that's what you asked for?

Option 2:

Barbarian/Bear Warrior

Bear Warrior gets stupid bonuses to Strength when raging. By level 10 in the PrC, you're doing something like a +20 to strength while raging, plus exta Con and Dex bonuses on the side. It's only feat requirement is Power Attack, which you are planning on getting anyways. Then Shock Trooper and Leap Attack FTW!

Tyrael
2007-08-27, 08:58 PM
I'll put some work into this idea and get back to you a little later tonight. Are there any RP character elements you're looking to incorporate?

What books can you use? Is this for an actual game or just a thought experiment? Rolling method? Any LA reastrictions? What alignments?

RP things, at one point the character obtained dragon wings by fighting a red bull in a tournament (purely so the DM could quip, "Red Bull gives you wings!"). He was also apprenticed to a sorcerer very early in his life, but was driven out of town before he learned a whole lot. His INT is fairly low, since he's been RPed as a bit dumb, but good-hearted. :P

This is for an actual game, yes. The rest of the party consists of a swashbuckler, a cleric (possibly a monk, the player is deciding), a warblade, and a ninja/rogue. So we have 2 Skill Monkeys, a possible HealBot, and a secondary tank. This character will be the main tank/meatshield/heavy-hitter.

Rolling, 90-pt buy, wherein if you add the ability scores together, you should get 90. Also, we're not allowed to have more than one 18 as a starting score. Right now, I've settled on a tentative build of
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 17
INT 9
WIS 16
CHA 14

As mentioned above, it's a homebrewed Lizardfolk who doesn't have an LA. Alignment, any non-evil.

...By the way, I also took a look at the Goliath Greathammer, and it's actually the same as the Minotaur Greathammer in MMIV, but with a lower crit range.

Damionte
2007-08-27, 09:49 PM
Ok this isn't exactly what you asked for. By the time you responded with more detail I was already deep into working it out. so I went out a bit further on a limb than it looks like yuo're allowed to go. I'm posting it anyway though since I did all the work. :)

This one does require a level adjustment. You'll also have to forgive me, in that I've forgotten the name of that big Hammer that is the equivalent of the Fullblade. Essentially it's a bastard sword built for a large creature. Except it's a hammer.

In this build you're working with an oversized version. I'll probably go look it up and change the post afterwords. Until you take exotic weapon profeciency (Big ass hammer) just use a great club.

Some time later in this build when you can get your hands on one pick up a deep crystal version of the weapon. This way you'll be able to shunt to power points into at any time for an extra 2d6 damage.

This is a variant on my ultimate power attack cleave build. The keys to this build are the powerful build racial ability of the half giant and the sweeping strike ability of the warmind.

Powerful build will allow you to carry around and use a weapon with a base of 3d8 damage. This base will go up to 4d8 when you use the Psionic expansion power. Which will actually make you large size for the duration.

Sweeping strike is the 5th level ability of the warmind. Every time you swing your weapon you hit foes in two adjacent squares. Including attacks of opportunity and cleave attempts.

The rest of the combo, involved Knockback, (from Races of stone) gives you a free bull rush attempt whenever you hit an opponent while using your power attack feat.

Shock Tropper from complete warrior, which allows you to direct which way you push someone back with a bull rush as well as giving you a free trip attempt on an opponent if yuo push them into another enemy.

Improved trip, which gives you a free attack against anyone you trip.

Imp Bull rush , and Improved trip combined with your powerful build racial ability will give you a +8 on both attempts.

So the combo goes like so.

Say you have a big baddie being flanked by two of his minions. Once they're all in range you swing at one of the minnions. Since your swings take up two squares you also hit the big baddie with this shot. If you do not not kill the minnion bull rus him into the baddie. And take free trip attempts on them both. If you manage to trip either you get another attack for free. Hit them both again with the sweeping strike. If you've now killed the minnion, CLEAVE!

Hit the other minnion along with the big baddie again. Repeat the step above. if you manage to kill the minnion cleave again into the big baddie.

Best case scenario, you've cleaned both of the minnions off the board and hit the big baddied 5 times. You're doing 4d8 damage with each swat, and that was only your first attack for the round!

The down side of the build is losing two base attack bonus on P-warrior, but even that is not so bad.

Here's a bit more. The race since you wanted somethign lizard/dragon like, is a Half-Crystal Dragon/Halfgiant. (for the smarty pants no that doesn't make you a quarter anything.) Half giants are an independant gene race not actually the mating of humans and giants. They're just called half giant because that's what they resemble.

Total Racial Adjustment is LA+2

Racial Abilities:
Darkvision 60 feet
Low Light Vision
+4 Str
-2 Dex
+4 Con
+2 Char
+2 Intimidate, Spot
+2 Saves VS fire
+4 Save VS Sleep and Paralysis
x2 Claw Attacks @ 1d3
Naturally Psionic 2 power Points
Cast Stomp 1/Day
Giant Racial subtype: Not subject to spells that effect Humans such as Hold Person, Charm person.
Dragonblooded

All of that is at level 1.

Somewhere in there I believe you also get a breath weapon Cone Of Light & Immunity to Cold. I wasn't exactly sure how that worked though or when you got those abilities.

The build also varies depending on how your GM handles Level Adjustments. some have you buy it off as you level but they actually take up character levels. Others let you take an actual class level at lvl 1, but you take a % hit on your Xp throughout your career. In this case taking 20-30% less Xp than the rest of the party for your whole career. On the chart the spots on Lvl 1 & 2 are there to simply represent that at those levels you're buying down the level adjustments.

Anyway here's the build chart I came up with. granted I'll have to start over now that you've given me what you Actually have to work with.



{table=head]Key | ACL = | ECL =
| P-Warrior CL | Warmind CL [/table]
{table=head]Char Lvl | Class (Lvl) | Base Attack | Fort | Ref | Will | PP's | PCL WCL | Class Abilities, Feats
1 | Half Dragon BD | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | 2 | 0/0 | H-Dragon Racial, H-Giant Racial, Combat Reflexes
2 | Half Giant BD | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | 2 | 0/0 | ----
3 | Fighter (1) | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | 2 | 0/0 | Exotic Weapon, Power Attack,
4 | P-Warrior (1) | +1 | +4 | +0 | +0 | 2 | 1/0 | Power 1st , Cleave
5 | P-Warrior (2) | +2 | +5 | +0 | +0 | 3 | 2/0 | Power, Combat Expertise
6 | Fighter (2) | +3 | +6 | +0 | +0 | 3 | 2/0 | Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip
7 | P-Warrior (3) | +4 | +6 | +1 | +1 | 6 | 3/0 | Power
8 | P-Warrior (4) | +5 | +7 | +1 | +1 | 11 | 4/0 | Power 2nd
9 | P-Warrior (5) | +5 | +7 | +1 | +1 | 18 | 5/0 | Power, Shock Trooper, Knock back
10 | P-Warrior (6) | +6/+1 | +8 | +2 | +2 | 29 | 6/0 | Power
11 | Warmind (1) | +7/+2 | +10 | +4 | +2 | 31 | 6/1 | Power 1st, Chain of Personal Superiority +2
12 | Warmind (2) | +8/+3 | +11 | +5 | +2 | 36 | 6/2 | Power, Chain of defensive Posture +2, Great Cleave
13 | Warmind (3) | +9/+4 | +11 | +5 | +3 | 45 | 6/3 | Enduring Body (DR1/-)
14 | Warmind (4) | +10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +3 | 59 | 6/4 | Power 2nd
15 | Warmind (5) | +11/+6/+1 | +12 | +6 | +3 | 79 | 6/5 | Sweeping Strike, <FEAT>
16 | Warmind (6) | +12/+7/+2 | +13 | +7 | +4 | 107 | 6/6 | Power 3rd , Enduring Body (DR 2/-)
17 | Warmind (7) | +13/+8/+3 | +13 | +7 | +4 | 144 | 6/7 | Chain Of Personal Superiority +4
18 | Warmind (8) | +14/+9/+4 | +14 | +8 | +4 | 191 | 6/8 | Power 4th , Chain of Defensive Posture +4, <FEAT>
19 | Warmind (9) | +15/+10/+5 | +14 | +8 | +5 | 249 | 6/9 | Enduring Body (DR 3/-)
20 | Warmind (10) | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +15 | +9 | +6 | 319 | 6/10 | Power 5th , Chain Of Overwhelming Force
[/table]

Tyrael
2007-08-28, 01:23 AM
Wow, that's a fun build to try sometime, but doesn't quite work for this character. Sorry to shoot down your work, Damionte. It's good stuff.

I should probably have mentioned that there aren't any psionics in our campaign. >.< My bad.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-28, 12:51 PM
Wow, that's a fun build to try sometime, but doesn't quite work for this character. Sorry to shoot down your work, Damionte. It's good stuff.

I should probably have mentioned that there aren't any psionics in our campaign. >.< My bad.

How about Barbarian1/Sorc1/Barbarian/Bear Warrior?/Dragon Disciple?

Barbarian is the classic 'hulk smash'. One level of Sorcerer to qualify for Dragon Disciple later. In addition, you get access to things like True Strike, and can use wands/scrolls to buff yourself with. Personally, I'd also grab Shield, since you're going to be wielding a two-handed weapon, and it gives you more AC for effectively nothing. You get the dragon flavor with Dragon Disciple. D12 hit die, 3/4 BAB, good Will *AND* Fort saves, and you eventually turn into a half-dragon. Keep in mind, you can still turn into a bear, and bonuses from both PrC's stack for strength. Sure, you're going to be Epic before you can max out both PrC's, but that just means you've got a lot of room to grow.

Grab Lion variant Barbarian for Pounce, then you can make a full attack on a charge.

You've got the Dragon flavor, you've got Hulk Smash, and no psionics

Alternately, replace Sorcerer with Bard. More skill points, bardic knowledge, bardic performance (as 1st level Bard, so not very good, but you can do it while raging), and you have a Skald type character, plus still turning into a half-dragon.

EDIT: Barbarian5/Sorc1/AbChamp2/Bear Warrior?/Dragon Disciple?

For Bear Warrior, you need BAB of +7. For Dragon Disciple you need Spellcraft 8 ranks. AbChamp, Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage, gives full BAB, full casting (pointless), Spellcraft as a class skill, and Swift Abjuration, which means you can cast Shield as a swift action, and it will give a +2 to the defensive value of Shield since it's an Abjuration effect, making it a +6 shield bonus to AC, which is handy. You can pop it off as a swift action at the beginning of every combat. You've got enough spells per day to do this every combat unless you're getting sent up against a marathon of critters. Do this just before you Rage and shift into a Bear.

If you want more innate magic (because Dragons are innately magical creatures), then go AbChamp 5 ranks, then Dragon Disciple to finish off, and skip Bear Warrior. This means you're casting as a 6th level Sorcerer by the end of AbChamp, which gives you 3rd level spells, which is good. That's Haste, among other things.

If you want less magic and more smash, Barbarian7/Bear Warrior?/something else at the end. You don't get to turn into a half-dragon, but you do get a +20 strength when raging in bear form at Bear Warrior 10.

Tyrael
2007-08-28, 11:01 PM
After fiddling around and consulting with my DM, I settled upon Warblade8/Dragon Devotee 5. I used Monkey Grip plus the STrongarm Bracers to get a Huge Greathammer. Talked with my DM about it, and he thought that a Huge Greathammer not having reach didn't make a lot of real-world sense, so he agreed to let it have 15-ft reach, but in return I'd take some penalties in small spaces for lugging the thing around. Following that convo, I snapped up Combat Reflexes, Cleave, and Great Cleave for oodles of fun. Also nabbed Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, everyone's favorites. Base STR is 18, +2 Lizardfolk, +6 from a Belt of Giant Strength, +2 from a pale blue rhomboid Ioun Stone, +2 from Dragon Devotee, +2 from levels 4 and 8, brings me up to a grand total of 32 base STR. Woot!

Haven't decided on my Warblade maneuvers, but Stone Dragon is definitely the way to go with this guy. Any suggestions?

Darrin
2007-08-29, 09:47 AM
Haven't decided on my Warblade maneuvers, but Stone Dragon is definitely the way to go with this guy. Any suggestions?

Switch Great Cleave with something else. The odds you'll ever be in a situation where Great Cleave can be used are almost infintessimal. You'll get a lot more mileage out of Improved Trip+Knockdown or Martial Study.

As for Stone Dragon... eh... no. Most of the strikes are standard actions, which just wastes your iterative attacks. All you essentially need out of Stone Dragon is one or two maneuvers that bypass DR, and maybe Giant's Stance when you get IL 9. Your bread-and-butter maneuvers are more likely to come from Iron Heart and White Raven. My suggestions:

WB1: Punishing Stance (IH1, +1d6 damage/-2 AC), Steel Wind (IH1, move and attack two opponents), Charging Minotaur (SD1, +2d6 damage on charge), Wolf Fang Strike (TC1, yeah I know you're not TWF but you need this for...)
WB2: Sudden Leap (TC1, bonus movement, excellent utility boost)
WB3: Mountain Hammer (SD2, bypass DR, +2d6 damage)
WB4: Wall of Blades (IH2, counter ranged attack, replace Wolf Fang Strike), Leading the Charge (WR1, +IL to damage on charges)
WB5: White Raven Tactics (WR3, recently nerfed by the Sage but too darned useful to pass up), Bonus Feat = Combat Reflexes
WB6: Iron Heart Surge (IH3, also too darned useful to pass up, replace Charging Minotaur or Wall of Blades)
WB7: Lightning Recovery (IH4, boost, reroll any missed attack)
WB8: Mithril Tornado (IH4, basically Whirlwind Attack that works with Cleave, replaces Steel Wind)

You can bump up your IL a bit by taking two levels of Dragon Devotee, probably best after WB7. This would allow you to take a Level 5 manuever at WB8, such as Elder Mountain Hammer (IH5, replaces Mountain Hammer). Or you could take Death From Above (TC4, extra damage + extra move) at WB7, two levels of Dragon Devotee, and then Pouncing Charge (TC5) at WB8. This would allow an interesting combo: Sudden Leap (DC 20 to jump 10 feet) + Pouncing Charge (Charge 10 feet, full attack) + Leading the Charge (add Initiator Level to damage), all of this multiplied by Power Attack + Leaping Attack, which you could do *every other round*.

Tyrael
2007-08-29, 10:51 AM
That sounds fantastic. A few Q's.

What's IL? How does Dragon Devotee boost it?

I'm not entirely sure about how the levels of the moves work. Are they separate from the class, like a Wizard? Or the same? Like, can a lvl8 Warblade use a lvl8 maneuver?

Do any of those maneuvers need to modify the level breakdown in any way? Currently it's Warblade8/Devotee5. Would that need to change to use these?

Darrin
2007-08-29, 12:10 PM
What's IL? How does Dragon Devotee boost it?


IL = Initiator Level. It's similar to Caster Level for Wizards. Every level in a Martial Adept base class or prestige class increases your Initiator Level. Non-Martial Adept classes count as 1/2 Initiator Level. So 2 levels of Dragon Devotee would boost your IL by 1. You want to avoid taking too many non-Martial Adept levels, however, because if you take more than six, you'll never get access to 9th level manuevers (IL = 17, MA 14 + NonMA 3).



I'm not entirely sure about how the levels of the moves work. Are they separate from the class, like a Wizard? Or the same? Like, can a lvl8 Warblade use a lvl8 maneuver?


Very similar to Wizard spells. Your IL determines the highest level of maneuver you can learn. So IL 3 = 2nd level maneuvers, IL 5 = 3rd level maneuvers, and so on. If you double the level of the maneuver and subtract 1, that tells you what IL you need to learn the maneuver.

This is particularly important for stances. For example, a Warblade learns his 2nd stance at WB4, but his IL = 4, so the highest maneuver he can learn is still only 2nd level, and there aren't any new stances in any disciplines until 3rd level. If you take two non-Martial Adept classes before you take Warblade 4, however, your IL is high enough to learn a 3rd level stance. This isn't currently an option for your build, since the earliest you can qualify for Dragon Devotee is after WB5.

You could, however, toss in two Fighter levels for two Bonus Feats, or Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 for Pounce + Bonus Feat before you take WB4, and this would allow you to take a 3rd level stance (although you might run afoul of multiclass penalties... Lizardfolk's preferred class is Druid? Really?). You might miss out on the last level of Dragon Devotee, too, if you still want 9th level manuevers.

I'm not sure if any of the 3rd level stances would work all that well with this build... Absolute Steel gives you a +10 movement bonus and +2 to AC if you move 10 feet, but would be hard to use Sudden Leap and Leading the Charge at the same time, since you need to use a swift action to change stances. Leaping Dragon Stance might be the most useful, giving jump bonuses for Leap Attack, Sudden Leap, and Death From Above, but given your high strength hitting those jump DCs may not be much of a problem.



Do any of those maneuvers need to modify the level breakdown in any way? Currently it's Warblade8/Devotee5. Would that need to change to use these?

I took care to suggest the best maneuvers at the correct IL (and checked prereqs for manuevers), assuming you'd take straight Warblade levels 1-8, but I don't have the book in front of me and am mostly going by info that's available online. Everything I suggested should work for the first 8 levels of Warblade.

The only change I suggested was taking two levels of Dragon Devotee before WB8 to get IL 9, which allows you to pick up Pouncing Charge or another 5th level maneuver, which would be WB7/Dev2/WB+1/Dev+3... not all that much different. Probably worth it for Pouncing Charge, but you could get the same ability much earlier by taking one level of Lion Totem Barbarian. And that may work out well with your Initiator Levels, too... WB14 + Bbn1 + DrgDev5 = IL 17.

Something else to consider... at level 12, if you have a feat available for Martial Stance, your IL should be high enough to pick up Giant's Stance (SD5, requires 2 SD maneuvers/stances), which would increase your size while attacking... so the -2 oversize penalty from Monkey Grip would disappear, not to mention bonus damage and more reach. You also get another stance at WB10, so you could pick it up there if you don't have a feat available.

Tyrael
2007-08-29, 02:28 PM
Excellent. All told, I've picked up Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Charging Minotaur, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Leading the Charge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge, Elder Mountain Hammer, Death From Above, and Pouncing Charge.

I'm not sure how Death From Above moves, though. It's kinda confusing.

Current feat loadout:

Power Attack(char1)
Monkey Grip(char3)
Combat Reflexes(warblade5)
Leap Attack(char6)
Improved Trip(char9)
Knockdown(devotee2)
Improved Bull Rush(char12)
Shock Trooper(devotee4)

Current AC: 30 (10 +3Dex + 3Natural Armor (+2 houseruled Lizardfolk, +1 Devotee) +6Ring +8FullPlate)

Current stats:
STR 32
DEX 16
CON 22
INT 9
WIS 16
CHA 14


Also, I grabbed Dragonborn for this char, with the Wings upgrade.

Darrin
2007-08-29, 03:24 PM
Excellent. All told, I've picked up Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Charging Minotaur, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Mountain Hammer, Wall of Blades, Leading the Charge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge, Elder Mountain Hammer, Death From Above, and Pouncing Charge.


Keep in mind that at WB4, WB6, and WB8 you're replacing an existing maneuver, not getting a new one. Wall of Blades replaces Wolf Fang Strike, Iron Heart Surge replaces Steel Wind or Wall of Blades (whichever you don't think you'll use that often), and Pouncing Charge replaces Charging Minotaur. If you take Death From Above at WB8, you can't take Elder Mountain Hammer as well, but could pick it up at WB9.



I'm not sure how Death From Above moves, though. It's kinda confusing.


As far as how Death From Above works, I think it's a standard action so you won't get a full attack on it, but it's useful if you want to engage an opponent and Pouncing Charge isn't available. Spend a move action to move up next to an opponent, then a jump check to jump over them, make your attack roll, they are flat-footed for the attack, and you deal an additional 4d6 untyped damage. You then pick a square adjacent to your opponent to land in, but within 20 feet... a little like making a Sudden Leap at the end of your attack, free bonus movement which puts you in position to flank or open up a spot for an ally to charge in behind you. If you only have a standard action available, it's not a bad maneuver, but the free jump movement opens up interesting tactical options:

* Party Rogue is already engaged with an opponent, he delays his action until after your turn. You move over, execute DFA, land in square opposite Rogue to provide flanking bonus to his attacks.

* Use a move action to engage a new target, DFA and land on opposite side. Party Tank, who was standing right next to you, can now charge the same target, and you're not in his way.

* Land next to a fallen ally without triggering a lot of AoOs to provide protection/aid/healing.

* Discourage an opponent from falling back/escaping.

* Combine an attack with jumping inside a group of enemies to set up a Mithril Tornado attack next round.

* Jump out of a group of enemies, attack, and then use your move action to get to a safer location, minimizing AoOs for jumping out of/through threatened squares.

Tyrael
2007-08-30, 03:40 PM
Right, finished adding in all the stances and things. This build is looking great.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-30, 04:30 PM
May I suggest the feat Clarion Call if you have a party Rogue? Intimidate check DC 20 to make opponent Flanked (and thus sneak attacks) for a full minute? Yes please.

Tyrael
2007-08-31, 01:23 AM
If I had a feat left, sure, I'd go for that. But we don't have a Rogue in the party, actually. We have a skillmonkey Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate with Able Learner, but no actual Rogue.

Darrin
2007-08-31, 07:16 AM
If I had a feat left, sure, I'd go for that. But we don't have a Rogue in the party, actually. We have a skillmonkey Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate with Able Learner, but no actual Rogue.

Clarion Commander requires two feats, actually... White Raven Defense is a prerequisite. And I'm not sure White Raven Defense would be even marginally useful. While you may be using the Leading the Charge stance for your pounce attacks, you may be moving around too much to get the +1 AC bonus. If you are standing next to an ally, you'll most likely be switching to Punishing Stance for the extra damage. (Although you could pick up White Raven Defense as a bonus feat at Warblade 9, and then pick up Clarion Commander at 15th level... but there may be better feats to pick up. Martial Study to pick up a damage boost like Burning Blade comes to mind, for example.)

Besides, from what I can see your character concept is "ME SMASH WITH BIG HAMMER", not "helping the party rogue with sneak attack". If the party rogue really needs flanking that badly, then he can pick up Clarion Commander himself.

Incidentally, I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but this thread has some great ideas on how to accessorize that whole "hitting things with heavy objects" concept:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2825279