Level Buyoff, do you allow it?

[gogogome]

Just curious. I want to see if anyone disallows it for any reason.

[Mordaedil]

No. Maybe. Yes. Can you elaborate more than a single line as if you were asking a chatroom?

[gogogome]

No. Maybe. Yes. Can you elaborate more than a single line as if you were asking a chatroom?

Well on one hand it eventually eliminates the LA completely so it's too OP.

On the other hand LA is poorly balanced so having a way to remove LA is good.

Ultimately I want some people who used this in their games to give me their experience and opinion on the matter before I put it in my game.

Curious as to how common Level Buyoff is in games.

[RFLS]

The thing with level adjustment is that it would be OP to ignore it immediately. However, as the characters gain levels, the power disparity reduces to negligible. I've found that the buyoff system keeps pace with the disparity pretty well.

[Mordaedil]

Well on one hand it eventually eliminates the LA completely so it's too OP.

On the other hand LA is poorly balanced so having a way to remove LA is good.

Ultimately I want some people who used this in their games to give me their experience and opinion on the matter before I put it in my game.

Curious as to how common Level Buyoff is in games.

Ah, you mean using the alternative rule for buying off Level Adjustment. I wasn't sure if it was that or a retraining thing.

We haven't really bothered with that rule, opting to either taking lesser variants or savage progression.

[death390]

when i DM i allow it, the buyoff rules are good. i personally enjoy using templates on my personal PC's when allowed, it adds a bit more depth to them (playing as a fey blooded elf and using half-fey transition template is great for example, even better if exalted with nymphs kiss since it adds a reason why i might have a fey lover)

[lylsyly]

My group not only always uses it, we made it easier! LA+2! buyoff at 6 and 9? NOPE. Not here We buy off levels at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 regardless. A LA+3 is caught up with the non LA guys at level 18 and is NEVER more than 1 level behind.

[Necroticplague]

Yes. Considering that non-human races by and by large benefit martial characters more than casters (as casters can already get what they need from spells), I consider it part of my changes that redress the issue.
It also helps make sure I see more variety by making more things somewhat viable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes. The fact that for most builds human (or strongheart halfling) is still the go-to race because of the bonus feat is really all the justification necessary imo.
All LA buyoff does is make the +1-3 LA races actually mechanically viable in a game with humans. Not the superior option in most cases, but at least not a total sacrifice of form over function.

[Malimar]

I allow LA buyoff by the UA rules, yes. (I used to have custom rules to try to make it simpler, but they didn't and they didn't work very well, so I dropped them in favor of the official one.)

I also halve all LA to start with (unless LA is already 1), which gives much more reasonable numbers for most races.

[Troacctid]

I use milestones, which means the buyoff rules don't work for me as written.

[Fizban]

"Banned" for doing the exact opposite of the whole point of LA- except it's a completely DM dependent variant so even moreso than any other material there's no such thing as ban. But sometimes you want a stronger word. We just had a thread a while back where I posted the whole screed, why not quote myself?

I find it rather more problematic that LA Buyoff literally goes against the entire point of LA and thus isn't actually fixing a problem. LA exists because getting certain stuff for free when other characters aren't puts you ahead, so they tried to assign some level adjustments to make up for it. LA Buyoff uses the self-correcting nature of xp to let you remove that penalty and slingshot back up to the same level as the rest of the party. . .

At which point you've got something for free and they don't.

Even if you actually played all the way from the early levels before you started "buying off" that adjustment and thus suffered some actual penalty, it's the same problem as people who claim "oh wizards are better later but fighters are better earlier"- when you reach that higher level, one is getting a bunch of stuff for free, and the other isn't. Wizards shouldn't be flat better than non-wizards (which can be achieved through a variety of methods) and monster characters (or whatever the favorite LA thing is) should not be flat better than non-monsters (which can be achieved by not allowing LA Buyoff). And when you're just starting at higher levels with the LA already "bought off," there's just no cost.

Level adjustment isn't a great rule, but LA buyoff is worse.

How to fix it? The best way to fix giving something to one person for free is to give something to everyone for free, just give everyone the same LA (and access to stuff that's actually equal in power) and either boost the CR or reduce loot accordingly. If you absolutely insist on running "LA buyoff," then every non-LA character should be allowed to buy equivalent bonuses at the same time for the same price.

Edit: to be clear, it's LA 1-2, the amount that people actually recommend using with buyoff, which are the problem. Which are removed at 3rd, or 6th and 9th, while the slingshot rate is somewhere around +1/10 early on to +1/3 after 8th. So basically they're saying that by 12th level, the features of LA 2 should be free- mhm, yeah, Wings of Flying +54k, untyped +4 ability scores +32k, fast healing or gobs of DR +not even available 'k. And that's assuming you only went for one good feature on an LA +2, let alone the borked LA +1's people love. Because LA buyoff is a good rule 'ya see.

[Ukimoni]

I personally like LA Buyoff...as long as the other characters who didn't get LAs get something in return. It's a balancing act, but a good one to do to make sure everyones happy

[Troacctid]

If I did use LA buyoff, I would charge gold for it, not xp.

[Thurbane]

I've used it in my last couple of campaigns, and it's worked pretty well.

Two Aasimars (one Warblade, one Paladin) and a Catfolk (Ranger/Rogue).

Players were happy with the system, and so was I as DM.

Can't state how well it might work with LAs above +1...

[gogogome]

Alright it seems like an overwhelming yes.

[Celestia]

I've used it in my last couple of campaigns, and it's worked pretty well.

Two Aasimars (one Warblade, one Paladin) and a Catfolk (Ranger/Rogue).

Players were happy with the system, and so was I as DM.

Can't state how well it might work with LAs above +1...
+2 works decently well with the official system, and +3 gets mildly mitigated. However, anything higher that that is barely, if at all, affected. That ogre mage is just as horrible a choice as ever.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I allow it only if all the players use the same LA and buy it off at the same time.

[Aimeryan]

I personally like LA Buyoff...as long as the other characters who didn't get LAs get something in return. It's a balancing act, but a good one to do to make sure everyones happy

Anyone who is playing Human has a good chance at being better off than a LA-race-with-buyoff anyhow; I would probably do the same as you and Fizban in terms of equalising things, but that doesn't mean the Humans would necessarily get anything extra - it would be far more thought-out than a simple LA comparison.

[martixy]

Extra yes.
But I get Fizban, which is why we use PFs rules. Only up to half the LA. And I made it per 4 levels instead.

[Jiece18]

I have never been a fan of Level Buyoffs for the same reason I am not a fan of Flaws. Most of the players I have interacted with simply use them to better optimize whatever build they are using and completely ignore whatever negatives their race/flaws might have in an RPG sense. Had a player get annoyed when the human village they were in treated his Drow poorly. The LA rules are not perfect, but it is a legitimate cost for non-class related perks. The few times I as a DM have ignored them is when the entire group wanted to to be a different race. If the LAs were within 1 of each other, I just let them ignore it.

[heavyfuel]

Alright it seems like an overwhelming yes.

Here in the forums, yes. IRL I've yet to meet a DM that allows for it.

Much like how the forum knows Monks suck, but you still find many players and DMs claiming it's the OPest class put there.

[ComaVision]

Much like how the forum knows Monks suck, but you still find many players and DMs claiming it's the OPest class put there.

I played in a convention game where the DM said I couldn't play a Druid because he didn't want me breaking his game but his houserule for Clerics was that they cast spontaneously off the entire Cleric spell list (among other things).

I prefer GITP's take on things lol

[Aimeryan]

I have never been a fan of Level Buyoffs for the same reason I am not a fan of Flaws. Most of the players I have interacted with simply use them to better optimize whatever build they are using and completely ignore whatever negatives their race/flaws might have in an RPG sense. Had a player get annoyed when the human village they were in treated his Drow poorly. The LA rules are not perfect, but it is a legitimate cost for non-class related perks. The few times I as a DM have ignored them is when the entire group wanted to to be a different race. If the LAs were within 1 of each other, I just let them ignore it.

Humans don't have to be racist. Are you sure it was not the character that was annoyed, not the player?

The RAW is that they can be bought off. Rule-by-balance is that sometimes they should be allowed to be bought off, sometimes they shouldn't; races are not automatically balanced in regard to LA (0 or otherwise).

[ComaVision]

The RAW is that they can be bought off.

Not really. It's an optional rule in Unearthed Arcana.

[RoboEmperor]

In a low-op setting where sorcerers who go into non-full-casting PrCs and still be ok the DMs don't allow LA buyoff because it comes off as optimization and levels don't really matter to these DMs. You could be 4 levels behind wizards and it wouldn't matter.

In a mid-op or high-op setting where full casting progression sorcerers have trouble keeping up with wizards, druids, and clerics, DMs allow level buyoff because they know that the human's bonus feat is superior to virtually every LA race feature out there and without level buyoff absolutely no one would ever consider playing a LA race.

[heavyfuel]

Humans don't have to be racist. Are you sure it was not the character that was annoyed, not the player?

They don't have to be, but they certainly can be. The second point is a good one though


I played in a convention game where the DM said I couldn't play a Druid because he didn't want me breaking his game but his houserule for Clerics was that they cast spontaneously off the entire Cleric spell list (among other things).

I prefer GITP's take on things lol

This was more of warning to OP that forum gospel doesn't really reflect real life.

[Aimeryan]

Not really. It's an optional rule in Unearthed Arcana.

Which makes it RAW - all is optional. It is not RAW-default, but it is RAW.

[Jiece18]

Humans don't have to be racist. Are you sure it was not the character that was annoyed, not the player?

Drow are typically known as evil creatures. There was an elf and a gnome in the party and they had no trouble. The player in question just wanted to max out his abilities and not worry about the role playing aspect of that. It is not like the humans busted out the torches and pitchforks, he just had issues with gathering information and interacting with the town guards. He had a chance to have some fun interactions, but simply complained that the DM was picking on his character even thou the DM said that playing an unusual race might have some role playing issues.

[SirNMN]

I think that LA by off is a fine thing to allow, but normally I don't take advantage of it since I like playing the LA +3 thing. I enjoy the challenge of being a Monster trying to fit in to a "civilized" culture. my favorites are the spellwarped, half dragon, celestial, and voidmind the voidmind was specially fun to RP we started level 4 so I had 1 level of fighter LA 3 voidmind and we went to level 10 before the group fell apart

[ericgrau]

It seems backwards to me. It helps with low LA and at high level, when really you need help with high LA and LA at low level.

I'd just reduce LA across the board based on your gaming group's optimization. And reduce it a little more at low level regardless of optimization. If you see a race/template with abilities that become obsolete (mostly low level SLAs), then you could reduce it once those abilities go obsolete too. But not ability score bumps, size, etc.

It's also a good idea to cut most LA in half for most casters. Of course you need to decide when this applies to prevent abuse.

For the common Giantitp forum user level of optimization I'd do this quick and dirty fix and call it a day: Find (LA+1/2 RHD)*1/4. Subtract from LA. Subtract twice this amount instead from LA if (LA+1/2 RHD)*2 is greater than real class levels, or for casters. Round off the LA you get, rounding down for 1/2 LA. Some of the weaker LA 3/4s can also be rounded down. I mean honestly with Giantitp forum optimization aasimars can be LA 0 alongside humans from levels 1-20. Negative LA is ok since it comes with RHD. For the very best races like mineral warrior don't change the LA.

[SirNMN]

I'd just reduce LA across the board based on your gaming group's optimization. And reduce it a little more at low level regardless of optimization. If you see a race/template with abilities that become obsolete (mostly low level SLAs), then you could reduce it once those abilities go obsolete too. But not ability score bumps, size, etc.

It's also a good idea to cut most LA in half for most casters. Of course you need to decide when this applies to prevent abuse.

The casters get strong anyway let them suffer


For the common Giantitp forum user level of optimization I'd do this quick and dirty fix and call it a day: Find (LA+1/2 RHD)*1/4. Subtract from LA. Subtract twice this amount instead from LA if (LA+1/2 RHD)*2 is greater than real class levels, or for casters. Round off the LA you get, rounding down for 1/2 LA. Some of the weaker LA 3/4s can also be rounded down. I mean honestly with Giantitp forum optimization aasimars can be LA 0 alongside humans from levels 1-20. Negative LA is ok since it comes with RHD. For the very best races like mineral warrior don't change the LA.

so you are saying that like a satur you would take from 2 HD 2 La to 1 of each?