[potential spoiler?] i think i know where the last gate is.

[Steve Edwards]

This is just a theory of course but when you look at the crayon history of the gates, they are fighting on the surface, in the next frame we see there is now a dwarf statue with the only major difference being a tree in the background... I think that Statue is the retainer for the gate.

it also makes sense for the Halfling to misdirect them using the "pick the coin under the cup" trick.

[SlashDash]

Isn't it obvious?

I assumed since the online strip made quite a few notable shots of the Kraggars statue that it's where the gate is gonig to be.

[hroþila]

Yes, it'd be a super obvious and thus terrible place to put your macguffin. The statue sticks out and would likely be the first place anyone looked.

Girard's bluff was sensible because it was a last ditch effort to confuse an enemy who would already have had to deal with the main defenses. Putting it under the statue would mean bypassing all of the other defenses.

If the Gate is somehow under the statue, going through the dungeons must still be necessary to access it.

[factotum]

If the Gate is somehow under the statue, going through the dungeons must still be necessary to access it.

Which seems unlikely because the statue was clearly out in the open air, as I recall, so they'd have had to raise a mountain on top of it to make access through the dungeons a requirement. Not completely impossible given the power and (presumed) wealth of the people involved, just maybe a bit unlikely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which seems unlikely because the statue was clearly out in the open air, as I recall, so they'd have had to raise a mountain on top of it to make access through the dungeons a requirement. Not completely impossible given the power and (presumed) wealth of the people involved, just maybe a bit unlikely.

Unless the rift happened to naturally be surrounded by a massive system of caves, it seems extremely likely that a mountain was indeed raised on top of it (one made of scrying-resistant walls, to boot). The flashback of the final battle for that rift was in the open, too, although being a flashback we cannot be certain of its accuracy.

Which is to say: I don't think that the rift is under (or in) the statue. But there was a significant terrain-altering process put in place to defend it regardless.

Grey Wolf

[Synesthesy]

Unless the rift happened to naturally be surrounded by a massive system of caves

Dramatic rules say that it's 1/100000, so almost sure.

[Emanick]

Dramatic rules say that it's 1/100000, so almost sure.

Why would dramatic rules apply here? It's totally irrelevant whether there used to be natural caves there or whether they were built. By that logic, literally every irrelevant detail of the past is likely to be something incredibly implausible, like that every main character is descended from the same werebear-blue dragon couple.

[ThatNickGuy]

I was flipping through the books last night and, remembering this thread, looked at the flashback showing the creation of each gate in #277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

Aside from Soon's gate, notice how Serini's gate is the ONLY one not explicitly shown?

I think maybe the statue theory might have some merit. Serini was (is? is she still alive?) a Rogue. Remember Xykon's shell game during the war on Azure City? He presented three options to trick the paladins, only to reveal that NONE of them were the real deal. Only Haley, a Rogue, saw through that. One could argue why Xykon doesn't see it himself, but 1) He's not a Rogue and 2) His ego won't let him consider someone else using his "brilliant" trick.

But who's to say Serini didn't pull the same gag? Her diaries imply she had a thing for Draketooth, so she might have either heard of his own fake-out plans, been inspired by him in some way, or they even brain-stormed ideas.

Speaking of Serini, my working theory on her whereabouts is...she's the Monster in the Darkness. She didn't want to retire like the rest of the Order of the Scribble. My theory is she was cursed or has become so addle brained that she's forgotten who she is.

[Morquard]

The problem with that idea is that it might indeed stop people looking for the gate. But it wouldn't stop random looters/vandalism, who see a statue and tear it down. Or Xykon getting fed up and decides to blast it to smithereens instead of just drawing glasses on it. Or anyone who hated the Scribbles and just wanted the statue gone before going into those caves to look.

Also we had the deception angle already just one gate ago, I don't think it's gonna happen again.

[Keltest]

If the statue is at all relevant to the defenses, and not just something put there to honor Kraagor, I think its most likely the statue is the key to locating the correct door. Which wouldn't necessarily get you any closer to getting into the tomb, if the monsters behind that door are tough enough to stop you.

[Fyraltari]

But who's to say Serini didn't pull the same gag? Her diaries imply she had a thing for Draketooth, so she might have either heard of his own fake-out plans, been inspired by him in some way, or they even brain-stormed ideas.

Considering that each other Scribbler went with their own idea and they all ironically failed, while Serini was the one advocate of "let's all work together, guys" I am 100% sure that shouls the last Gate not fall it will be by vindicating her in one way (her gate actually contains element of every member of the group's approaches) or another (It is saved by the Stickers showing better teamwork and mutula understanding than the Scribblers ever did).

[SlashDash]

Nitpicking : The shell game was Redcloak's idea, not Xykon's.




Anyhow, I don't know if the statue is the gate, or that it's possible there's another dungeon beneath it or something.

Also the notion that some vandal will mess up the statue and expose the gate is pretty much the same as anyone destroying the throne in Azure city.

Remember Miko killing Shojo? What if she missed and hit the gate? She could have destroyed the entire city.

Heck, Redcloak destroyed Lirian's gate by accident.

So I don't think you can take that as an argument.




As for Sireni, we have no idea what happened to her and the fact that the order even asked that question pretty much assumes we'll find out later.

My initial thought was

That she has to be alive, because we'll need to find out what happened to the original gang.
However, Start of Darkness shows us that Xykon is holding Lirian and Dorukon in his soul gem, so maybe they'll be the one to tell us.


Of course, it's also possible that Kraggor will return from beyond the rifts or that we'll get a ghost visit like Soon.

So she isn't needed for the story.

The fact that Xykon has her diary and that she doesn't seem active despite getting the warning from Gerard's desert trap makes me thinks she's likely dead or trapped somewhere. Not likely that Xykon has her as a prisoner since he said he was decoding the gates locations, and she'd be his prisoner, he'd just torture her for it.

[ThatNickGuy]

Nitpicking : The shell game was Redcloak's idea, not Xykon's.

Whoops, I stand corrected. Redcloak might figure it out sooner, but given how many doors there are (and MITD marking several as "done"), I get the feeling he won't figure it out for awhile. Assuming the statue is a fake-out, mind you.

[BaronOfHell]

Whoops, I stand corrected. Redcloak might figure it out sooner, but given how many doors there are (and MITD marking several as "done"), I get the feeling he won't figure it out for awhile. Assuming the statue is a fake-out, mind you.

In my opinion the shell game vs. Azure City was a good idea because even if the enemy figured neither of the 3 fake Xykon's were real, it didn't give any advantages the enemy would have had if the shell game hadn't been deployed.

So for something similar to work here, I think a setup where even if Team Evil figures out it's a trick, it won't put the defense of the Gate any worse than without the trick is required.

[Steve Edwards]

I was flipping through the books last night and, remembering this thread, looked at the flashback showing the creation of each gate in #277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).


Speaking of Serini, my working theory on her whereabouts is...she's the Monster in the Darkness. She didn't want to retire like the rest of the Order of the Scribble. My theory is she was cursed or has become so addle brained that she's forgotten who she is.

while the thought is entertaining, unfortunately it wouldn't make alot of sense how according to the commentary of others, it's a type of species which seems to be recognizable to others. I thought it might have been a baby tarrasque, but that wouldn't explain the teleport special ability.

one of my friends commented that it doesn't leave footprints for us the audience to see and yet belkar acknowledges it does indeed have footprints.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

one of my friends commented that it doesn't leave footprints for us the audience to see and yet belkar acknowledges it does indeed have footprints.

No, he left tracks. That is not the same as saying he left footprints. He might have been dragging his toys - which at the time included a table - and it was the items that left the tracks that Belkar followed, but described as weird.

We have a thread (maintained by me) that compiles all the clues here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708-MitD-X-If-I-told-you-you-wouldn-t-believe-me).

Grey Wolf

[SlashDash]

In my opinion the shell game vs. Azure City was a good idea because even if the enemy figured neither of the 3 fake Xykon's were real, it didn't give any advantages the enemy would have had if the shell game hadn't been deployed.

So for something similar to work here, I think a setup where even if Team Evil figures out it's a trick, it won't put the defense of the Gate any worse than without the trick is required.

If Team Evil realizes that none of the dungeons holds the gate, what are they going to do? Randomly assume it's the statue?
I assume it as such because it's a checkov's gun that we saw it as much as we did.

But Team Evil can't make that assumption. It could be under any tree, any rock.
Heck, you've seen the order combing the desert looking for Girard's gate. Team evil would be doing the same here - that's even assuming they know for a fact the gate is there and not decide to go elsewhere, like Nale did.


They won't go elsewhere since they have her diary, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't counting on it falling to the wrong hands.

[Keltest]

If Team Evil realizes that none of the dungeons holds the gate, what are they going to do? Randomly assume it's the statue?
I assume it as such because it's a checkov's gun that we saw it as much as we did.

But Team Evil can't make that assumption. It could be under any tree, any rock.
Heck, you've seen the order combing the desert looking for Girard's gate. Team evil would be doing the same here - that's even assuming they know for a fact the gate is there and not decide to go elsewhere, like Nale did.


They won't go elsewhere since they have her diary, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't counting on it falling to the wrong hands.

Ok, but remember back when the Order first got to the fake coordinates Girard gave the Sapphire Guard for the location of his gate? Haley explained very well why you wouldn't want to double bluff them in that manner, because the Statue is right there, and once theyre convinced its not in any of the caves, theyre going to give it a once over just out of thoroughness before they start formulating a new plan.

If the basis of your defense is secrecy, luring the people who want to find the gate to the exact location of the gate is detrimental to the goal of keeping it hidden. Even if they don't know its there, having them in its presence dramatically increases the chance they will stumble across it.

[hroþila]

The Order didn't merely comb the desert at random. They combed the area around the coordinates they had because they didn't have anything else to go by. They also searched Girard's statue in the off-chance that the Gate was there because, again, they didn't have anything else to go by. Kraagor's statue is an obvious point to search, especially if you have nothing else to go by.

As someone noted some time ago, that so many people think the statue would be a great hiding place is very ironic.

[factotum]

As someone noted some time ago, that so many people think the statue would be a great hiding place is very ironic.

It would make a great hiding place if it was just another statue in the middle of a terracotta army-like crowd, but standing out there on its own in the middle of nowhere...yeah, that's a bit obvious.

[Cizak]

If you have the option to put the gate behind defenses, why on Earth would you choose not to?

Girard lured The Order (Soon) to a point far away from the gate and put the actual one behind defenses. The gate being in the statue would mean Serini did the exact opposite; She lured her enemies directly to the Gate and left it exposed.


Also the notion that some vandal will mess up the statue and expose the gate is pretty much the same as anyone destroying the throne in Azure city.

Remember Miko killing Shojo? What if she missed and hit the gate? She could have destroyed the entire city.

Heck, Redcloak destroyed Lirian's gate by accident.

So I don't think you can take that as an argument.

[/SPOILER]

This comparison doesn't hold water. The statue is a random, seemingly unguarded piece of stone that anyone could smash for any reason. The Azure City throne was in the highest room in a highly fortified castle being protected by an order of paladins. And yeah, Miko almost destroyed it. The weakness of relying on the loyalty of your selected protectors is that a lot of protection goes out the window if that loyalty falters. Similarily, Redcloak was only able to accidentally destroy Lirian's gate after invading the territory of a high level druid with an army and a powerful undead sorcerer.

Soon's and Lirian's gates were only "easy" to destroy after bypassing a substantial amount of defenses. The statue... just walk up to it.

[Porthos]

Why it's not in the statue (probably) in one sentence:

It sticking out like a sore thumb makes it MORE likely to be searched by frustrated adventurers who are sick and tired of looking through caves than LESS likely.


===

It's the sticking out like a sore thumb which is the key.

And if you think it's unlikely that Team Evil would think of that, I would simply point out that DOZENS of posters, if not approaching a hundred, have all guessed that it's in the statue. Some within moments of the strip in question being posted.

If so many random readers are guessing that, I think it would be near the top of the list for someone in Team Evil's party to think it.

If not, they need a good reason not to think it. And, well, there's lots of trees and rocks so why search that isn't a very good reason in my book. If only because those could be there naturally and the statue very much couldn't.

It's very existence as something obviously built, which makes it different from all the rocks and tress which could or could not have been there originally, here makes it a prime candidate to be looked over. Either right away or after dozens of fruitless searches.

[Morquard]

People have pointed out that it seems like the landscape has been changed post gate. Which is possible, I guess.

Which would mean, that isn't it more likely that it was changed in such a way that the gate is now snuggly inside the mountain, with no way to it. Not a single one. It's just a hollow spot in the middle of the mountain, and none of the caves lead to it.

Of course, that's unlikely to be the case, as Team Evil obviously has to find it - for dramatic reasons - about the time the Order arrives so there's a last minute showdown and all.

[Riftwolf]

Am I the only one who thinks there is no trick? That this is a defence that would deter anyone powerful enough from continuing their search; an uncheatable, unavoidable, use-your-spells-to-blast dungeon with thousands of dead ends? That Serini, knowing the overshadowing that happens when spellcasters go epic, built a dungeon where an epic sorcerer is forced into a dungeon crawl like the rest of the mortals?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Am I the only one who thinks there is no trick?

No, I am of the same opinion. I think that Serini did build a monument to strength in the dwarf's memory, and that it would be a grave insult to his memory to cheapen it by making the final solution a trick.

GW

[Peelee]

Put me in that camp as well.

[Fyraltari]

I think that the last gate is inside the complex, to respect Kraagor's view, but the very last line of defense of the right tunnel will be a mix of each Scribbler's ideas.

[Keltest]

Personally, I think if theres going to be a trick, it will be that the correct tunnel cant be accessed from any of the doors. It will have been sealed off so that the former entryway just looks like the rest of the probably-artificial cliffside. Its still filled with monsters, you just cant walk into it. You would have to know where it is and smash the cliff down to get into the tunnel.

[Emanick]

Personally, I think if theres going to be a trick, it will be that the correct tunnel cant be accessed from any of the doors. It will have been sealed off so that the former entryway just looks like the rest of the probably-artificial cliffside. Its still filled with monsters, you just cant walk into it. You would have to know where it is and smash the cliff down to get into the tunnel.

I was thinking this as well. Why make it possible to access the gate at all without tunneling through stone? That would even serve as further tribute to Kraagor’s belief in the importance of physical might.

I don’t necessarily expect this to happen, but it would make sense to me if it did.

[Throknor]

Xykon has her diary which gave away the location of many if not all of the gates*. If she screwed up to the extent of doing that it's a borderline miracle she didn't give away which of the her doors is the correct one. I don't see her not accidentally giving away that her gate is really in the statue either in how she writes about the gate or the statue.

Yes, she didn't write the literal exact location of the other gates but she gave enough information that Xykon appeared right outside Girard's temple. So she knew that Gate was at X' by Y'; she just didn't know the defenses. I find it implausible that someone that careless with the other Gates' locations wouldn't have somehow given away hers was in a statue instead of behind one of a myriad of doors.

*Redcloak already knew the first so while she probably did we don't know for certain it had that one. Or maybe we do; I can't recall if Xykon used it to help figure out her diary. Regardless if he could decode locations he could decode if she left any clues about her own Gate.

[Keltest]

Xykon has her diary which gave away the location of many if not all of the gates*. If she screwed up to the extent of doing that it's a borderline miracle she didn't give away which of the her doors is the correct one. I don't see her not accidentally giving away that her gate is really in the statue either in how she writes about the gate or the statue.

Yes, she didn't write the literal exact location of the other gates but she gave enough information that Xykon appeared right outside Girard's temple. So she knew that Gate was at X' by Y'; she just didn't know the defenses. I find it implausible that someone that careless with the other Gates' locations wouldn't have somehow given away hers was in a statue instead of behind one of a myriad of doors.

*Redcloak already knew the first so while she probably did we don't know for certain it had that one. Or maybe we do; I can't recall if Xykon used it to help figure out her diary. Regardless if he could decode locations he could decode if she left any clues about her own Gate.

In fairness, she hid that information behind code and metaphor. She didn't just write down "yes, one gate is in the Sapphire in the throne of Azure City". They were only able to decipher that code because they knew where Lirian's gate was already.

[Throknor]

In fairness, she hid that information behind code and metaphor. She didn't just write down "yes, one gate is in the Sapphire in the throne of Azure City". They were only able to decipher that code because they knew where Lirian's gate was already.

[Pedantic mode on]There is location, and there is location. Once decoded all Xykon had was 'This part of an Elven Forest', 'Azure City', 'The Crooked Mountains', 'North of the Dwarven Lands', and 'This part of the Windy Canyon'. They had to scrye on Miko to figure out it was in the Sapphire. They tortured O'Chul to ostensibly learn about Girard's gate. But here's my point: part of the diary we see specifically says she zoned out about the details of at least one other Gate's protection but she knew exactly how hers was protected and she would have said so.

Now it is possible she could have tried to be deceptive in describing her Gate's defenses. I just can't balance her being clever about that but still giving enough detail that every Gate could be located. For example, she could have simply said 'in the desert' for Girard's but Xykon appeared on the doorstop. We know he couldn't have scryed the location so he must have gotten it from the diary.

I'm not sure I'm clarifying my point and I need to get back to work. Suffice it to say that I think everything she knew ended up in the diary and I can't see her not letting it slip about the statue when she gave all of the locations away.

[Fyraltari]

Remember this is a diary written day-by-day, not an autobiography written after the facts. It is entirely possible that, as the Scribblers became more aware of the importance of the rifts, she became more careful in her writings.

[hroþila]

[Pedantic mode on]There is location, and there is location. Once decoded all Xykon had was 'This part of an Elven Forest', 'Azure City', 'The Crooked Mountains', 'North of the Dwarven Lands', and 'This part of the Windy Canyon'. They had to scrye on Miko to figure out it was in the Sapphire. They tortured O'Chul to ostensibly learn about Girard's gate.
[Counter-pedantic mode on] They didn't torture O-Chul for the location of the gate, but for its defenses. It's true that they didn't know where exactly in Azure City Soon's Gate was, but on the other hand Xykon teleported right outside of the pyramid where Girard's Gate was, so I would guess the diary didn't have the same exact data for all the gates.

[martianmister]

On one hand it's a stupid move to hide the gate under the statue. But, on the other hand, she was basically the Elan of her group and we already know her diary debacle. So, I wouldn't be surprised if the gate is really under the statue after all.

[Quild]

Of course, it's also possible that Kraggor will return from beyond the rifts


I'm pretty convinced that the Snarl does not only kill but also destroys souls.
- Mijung was not resurrected
- Kraagor was not resurrected
- The gods mentionned souls passing safely to them if the world is destroyed.
- There's nothing in the Snarl's world (but the Snarl) when Laurin scans it.

[ken]

Remember this is a diary written day-by-day, not an autobiography written after the facts. It is entirely possible that, as the Scribblers became more aware of the importance of the rifts, she became more careful in her writings.

Also, Girard told her that had lied to the rest of the party about the location of his gate, and that he was specifically giving her the correct coordinates.
That would have made it more likely to be in the diary as coordinates.

ken

[Hecuba]

Unless the rift happened to naturally be surrounded by a massive system of caves, it seems extremely likely that a mountain was indeed raised on top of it (one made of scrying-resistant walls, to boot). The flashback of the final battle for that rift was in the open, too, although being a flashback we cannot be certain of its accuracy.

Which is to say: I don't think that the rift is under (or in) the statue. But there was a significant terrain-altering process put in place to defend it regardless.

Grey Wolf

I agree. Double bluffs and shell games was Draketooth's thing: this dungeon was raised in the memory of a Dwarf Barbarian. The enemy does not need to out-think the challenge: they must survive it.

[Riftwolf]

Just had a thought on the decoding; maybe it wasn't written in code at all. It could just be the stream of consciousness of a young halfling who kept a very detailed diary. She wouldn't necessarily write co-ordinates down, but talk about places they've been, routes they've taken, landmarks along the way. It'd be all but meaningless if you didn't have a frame of reference; 'she travelled from the middle of the elven forest for two days until they reached a mountain pass' could start anywhere. But if you knew one location, you could extrapolate other locations based on time and direction.
Xykon popping in front of Girards Pyramid, however, suggests she at least had a very detailed description of the specific spot in the Windy Canyon (which could've been puzzled out by a very crude map of dead ends)

[Morquard]

They've set up the warning systems that show them when a gate was destroyed, which was also the one exception to the "don't interfere" rule. Which means she might have written down where the other gates were so she could investigate them if it was needed.

[Jannoire]

- There's nothing in the Snarl's world (but the Snarl) when Laurin scans it.

I know, it's a bit off topic, but how can we be sure of that?

We see a wild storm of purple and such... But that's not evidence enough for me to say, that this is the Snarl's doing and that nothing else is in this world...

[zimmerwald1915]

I know, it's a bit off topic, but how can we be sure of that?

We see a wild storm of purple and such... But that's not evidence enough for me to say, that this is the Snarl's doing and that nothing else is in this world...
How about Lauren's word that she didn't detect any life in the otherworldly ocean. This is, if anything, downplayed in the comic: oceans typically teem with life.

[Keltest]

How about Lauren's word that she didn't detect any life in the otherworldly ocean. This is, if anything, downplayed in the comic: oceans typically teem with life.

Given that there was a super-death-monster right on the other side, that's not necessarily indicative of the entire planet.

We've seen green landmasses, so there is almost certainly at least some life on the planet.

[Peelee]

Given that there was a super-death-monster right on the other side, that's not necessarily indicative of the entire planet.

We've seen green landmasses, so there is almost certainly at least some life on the planet.

Assuming the super-death-monster is, itself, alive. Constructs and undead don't count as life, after all, so there is known precedent in the comic that "existing as some sort of creature" and "alive" are not synonymous.

Also, the green landmasses could be due to green rocks. Not saying I never believe that, but it's certainly in the realm of possibility.

[Fyraltari]

Assuming the super-death-monster is, itself, alive. Constructs and undead don't count as life, after all, so there is known precedent in the comic that "existing as some sort of creature" and "alive" are not synonymous.
I think Keltest meant that Laurin couldn't sense anything alive in the vicinity of the Rift because everything that hadn't managed to flee the Snarl was killed by it.

[Peelee]

I think Keltest meant that Laurin couldn't sense anything alive in the vicinity of the Rift because everything that hadn't managed to flee the Snarl was killed by it.

That makes sense. I am not a smart man.

[MesiDoomstalker]

How about Lauren's word that she didn't detect any life in the otherworldly ocean. This is, if anything, downplayed in the comic: oceans typically teem with life.

While you are accurate to a degree you must take a few things into account. The majority of life will be microscopic. Something that magical/psionic sensors tend to ignore. This is especially true for areas far from landmasses, where large (meaning creatures that at least count as Fine) would be few and far between. And the whole "Snarl has killed everything in range" thing. That's pretty important.

[Morty]

Considering that each other Scribbler went with their own idea and they all ironically failed, while Serini was the one advocate of "let's all work together, guys" I am 100% sure that shouls the last Gate not fall it will be by vindicating her in one way (her gate actually contains element of every member of the group's approaches) or another (It is saved by the Stickers showing better teamwork and mutula understanding than the Scribblers ever did).

I think it's pretty likely to happen in some fashion, unless of course all the gates fall and the Order has to deal with the consequences.

[Ruck]

Personally, I think if theres going to be a trick, it will be that the correct tunnel cant be accessed from any of the doors. It will have been sealed off so that the former entryway just looks like the rest of the probably-artificial cliffside. Its still filled with monsters, you just cant walk into it. You would have to know where it is and smash the cliff down to get into the tunnel.


I was thinking this as well. Why make it possible to access the gate at all without tunneling through stone? That would even serve as further tribute to Kraagor’s belief in the importance of physical might.

I don’t necessarily expect this to happen, but it would make sense to me if it did.

Yeah, I think this is a reasonably plausible scenario too. It's not like the gate really needs to be accessible to anyone for Good reasons.

[Dragolord]

The fact that Xykon has her diary and that she doesn't seem active despite getting the warning from Gerard's desert trap makes me thinks she's likely dead or trapped somewhere.


"Doesn't seem active"? She's an epic rogue. She could be literally anywhere, doing literally anything, and nobody would know until it was too late. She could be Oona in disguise, for all we know.

[Fyraltari]

"Doesn't seem active"? She's an epic rogue. She could be literally anywhere, doing literally anything, and nobody would know until it was too late. She could be Oona in disguise, for all we know.

Why wouldn't she answer V's Sendings, then? :smallconfused:

[Dragolord]

Why wouldn't she answer V's Sendings, then? :smallconfused:

A permanent Nondetection or Mind Blank effect, possibly, or maybe she was just asleep when V called. Perhaps she's on another plane, and V rolled very badly on the 5% chance of interference.

[hroþila]

A permanent Nondetection or Mind Blank effect, possibly, or maybe she was just asleep when V called. Perhaps she's on another plane, and V rolled very badly on the 5% chance of interference.
It is implied (or outright stated?) that V has been trying to contact Serini as part of V's more or less daily routine. Permanent effects that block Sending might explain it; a bad roll wouldn't.

[Morquard]

It's also quite possible that she received the message and took steps to prepare her own defenses, but doesn't trust V enough to respond. After all, it could be one of the bad guys who destroyed the other gates, trying to lure her out.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's also quite possible that she received the message and took steps to prepare her own defenses, but doesn't trust V enough to respond. After all, it could be one of the bad guys who destroyed the other gates, trying to lure her out.
If Serini is making this assumption . . . she's not wrong. The Order did destroy two Gates.

[Kish]

Got bad guys, too.

(Though, admittedly, less so than at the previous Gates. That said, if Serini is treating the Order with mistrust and the Order meets her, I do expect a scene where Roy protests "you should have trusted us!" and she comes back with, "Oh, so who did destroy Dorukan's Gate?")

[zimmerwald1915]

Got bad guys, too.
The literal worst. Really should've had Durkon cast those sendings instead.

[Fyraltari]

"Oh, so who did destroy Dorukan's Gate?")

"There was a bloody auto-destruct button! We are NOT doing the trial scene again!"

[Uigeadaily]

Aside from Soon's gate, notice how Serini's
Speaking of Serini, my working theory on her whereabouts is...she's the Monster in the Darkness. She didn't want to retire like the rest of the Order of the Scribble. My theory is she was cursed or has become so addle brained that she's forgotten who she is.

Turns out "What Gate?" is not just a running gag but a cry for help 😄. MitD theories aside, given that Serini wanted to carry on adventuring, might an intentional self-mind wipe justify why the diary wasn't destroyed?



I was thinking this as well. Why make it possible to access the gate at all without tunneling through stone? That would even serve as further tribute to Kraagor’s belief in the importance of physical might.

I don’t necessarily expect this to happen, but it would make sense to me if it did.

Likewise. It would also keep to our expectations of a more straightforward deceit without overlapping with Giraard's MO.


I recall theorising that Xykon's crown wasn't actually a crown but a missing cog in an overly complex mechanical door. It's reinsertion requiring a small-sized creature to crawl about inside.

I'd like to think if there is a final line of defence that reflects Serini and her own brand of roguishness, it would be as blatant, frustrating and expensive as an impenetrably locked door with no obvious key. A Gate within a gate.

If anything it would delay an intruder while the dungeon respawns monsters around them.

[Peelee]

I'd like to think if there is a final line of defence that reflects Serini and her own brand of roguishness, it would be as blatant, frustrating and expensive as an impenetrably locked door with no obvious key. A Gate within a gate.

Interesting. And to make the door even less obvious, maybe a bunch of doors. A whole bunch. Hundreds, even! Filled with monsters!

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to think if there is a final line of defence that reflects Serini and her own brand of roguishness, it would be as blatant, frustrating and expensive as an impenetrably locked door with no obvious key. A Gate within a gate.

There's a name for that sort of thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html)

[Uigeadaily]

Interesting. And to make the door even less obvious, maybe a bunch of doors. A whole bunch. Hundreds, even! Filled with monsters!

Heheh. It would be consistent from start to finish :smallbiggrin: (There's a Yo Dawg joke in here somewhere...)


There's a name for that sort of thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html)

Perhaps some potential foreshadowing?

[brian 333]

What is Kraggor's statue looking at?

Misdirection is a Rogue trait, and the statue stands out as an obvious place for someone to look, if they only destroy it out of frustration.

The final misdirection might be that destroying the statue destroys the final clue to the gate's location.

[Peelee]

What is Kraggor's statue looking at?

Misdirection is a Rogue trait, and the statue stands out as an obvious place for someone to look, if they only destroy it out of frustration.

The final misdirection might be that destroying the statue destroys the final clue to the gate's location.

This, by necessity, implies that the creator wants the Gate to be found. Why would Serini (or anyone else in the Sapphire Guard) want that?

[brian 333]

This, by necessity, implies that the creator wants the Gate to be found. Why would Serini (or anyone else in the Sapphire Guard) want that?

Good question, and I have no answer. My point isn't that the statue does show where the gate is, but that in the game of misdirection, which appears to be Serini's intent with all the doors, the clues become obvious only after the fact.

Any random passerby could destroy the statue on a whim, assuming it is just a statue. If the gate is in or under it, its distruction by vandals is very likely. But the shell game is that none of the offered choices have the pea. It's in the game operator's palm the whole time.

My point was simply that the statue may itself be a part of the shell game, and we still don't know where the pea is.

[Dragolord]

Perhaps the reason why the flashback doesn't match up with the present day is because she just decided to build Kraagor a tomb somewhere else. After all, what better combination of a rogue and a barbarian's philosophy than to build a vast complex full of horrible monsters which must be overcome... fifty miles away from the actual goal? If nothing else, it would be narratively pleasing if inside the final chamber, Team Evil find only Kraagor's bones, at rest with those of his pappy and granpappy and great-granpappy and so forth.

[georgie_leech]

Good question, and I have no answer. My point isn't that the statue does show where the gate is, but that in the game of misdirection, which appears to be Serini's intent with all the doors, the clues become obvious only after the fact.

Any random passerby could destroy the statue on a whim, assuming it is just a statue. If the gate is in or under it, its distruction by vandals is very likely. But the shell game is that none of the offered choices have the pea. It's in the game operator's palm the whole time.

My point was simply that the statue may itself be a part of the shell game, and we still don't know where the pea is.

Okay... "why would they do this" is kind of a critical part of the theory. You have to explain why the statue would be a "clue" in the first place, shell games or not.

[brian 333]

Okay... "why would they do this" is kind of a critical part of the theory. You have to explain why the statue would be a "clue" in the first place, shell games or not.

I don't know that it is a clue. I posed a rebuttal to the "statue hides the gate" theory. I speculate that it is another false lead, and gave an example of how it could be. As to why, that's pretty obvious: to waste the time of those searching for the gate.

Sort of like the many doors leading to many dungeons. Why have all of those? Well, the author hasn't told us, but it is easy to surmise that so long as the searchers keep searching the dungeons they won't find the gate. It is equally easy to surmise that any random passerby who has a streak of the vandal might simply break the statue for fun, or out of frustration at not finding the gate in one of the dungeons.

The fun part about this is that, for all my reasoning, the gate may well be in the statue. But in that case, I'd expect MitD wouldn't be able to see it. And I could be wrong about that too. But in the shell game, as I have said, all of the offered choices are wrong because the pea isn't under any of the shells, it's somewhere else.

[georgie_leech]

I don't know that it is a clue. I posed a rebuttal to the "statue hides the gate" theory. I speculate that it is another false lead, and gave an example of how it could be. As to why, that's pretty obvious: to waste the time of those searching for the gate.

Sort of like the many doors leading to many dungeons. Why have all of those? Well, the author hasn't told us, but it is easy to surmise that so long as the searchers keep searching the dungeons they won't find the gate. It is equally easy to surmise that any random passerby who has a streak of the vandal might simply break the statue for fun, or out of frustration at not finding the gate in one of the dungeons.

The fun part about this is that, for all my reasoning, the gate may well be in the statue. But in that case, I'd expect MitD wouldn't be able to see it. And I could be wrong about that too. But in the shell game, as I have said, all of the offered choices are wrong because the pea isn't under any of the shells, it's somewhere else.

Sure, but you also argued that destroying the statue would be a moment of self-damnation for any would-be Gate seekers:


The final misdirection might be that destroying the statue destroys the final clue to the gate's location.

That implies that the statue is a clue to the Gate. You seem to be arguing that the Statue is left there as an obvious vandalism target in such a way to make it likely to be destroyed, thus depriving said destroyers of a necessary clue to the Gate's location?

[brian 333]

Sure, but you also argued that destroying the statue would be a moment of self-damnation for any would-be Gate seekers:



That implies that the statue is a clue to the Gate. You seem to be arguing that the Statue is left there as an obvious vandalism target in such a way to make it likely to be destroyed, thus depriving said destroyers of a necessary clue to the Gate's location?


The idea I was trying to express is that it is very likely that someone could easily destroy the statue just because it is there. The whole thing about it being a clue is just an example of how the shell game is played. If you are unfamiliar with the shell game, we can wait a bit while you google it.

...

Okay, now that we know what the game is, we know that the pea, (in this case the gate,) is not in any of the choices the game operator offers.

As has been pointed out, Xykon used this trick in the attack on Azure City.

So, what is the most obvious thing in the area of the dungeons of many doors? The doors, of course, but the statue is second. And it is an obvious target for venting frustration after many failed attempts to find the gate in the dungeon, as we can see when Xykon defaces it. Had he, acting in frustration, simply cast some version of Shatter or Disentigrate or whatever, and had the gate been there, he'd have found it. Had Oona destroyed it because it represented a dwarf, Xykon would never have had to look in the first dungeon.

I didn't intend the takeaway to be that I was actually asserting that the statue was a clue to the gate's location, but to offer as an alternative to the assertion that the statue was, or contained, the gate. If a vandal destroys the statue, or a frustrated searcher, or a wandering monster, the entire dungeon complex is useless. Therefore, it is not a very safe place for the gate to be. If instead it is another shell in the game, it certainly doesn't have the rift inside it because the pea is never under any of the shells, it's in the game operator's hand.

[Fish]

Read that comic again:


Dorukan ... spent years warding his gate...

Lirian ... enlisted the aid of the creatures of the forest in its [the gate's] defenses...

Girard Draketooth hid his desert gate...

[Serini] decided that she would build a tomb for Kraagor.
What's missing?

It doesn't actually say that Serini built the tomb to protect the gate, or that she built the tomb around the gate, or that the gate is even close to that location. It just says she built a tomb.

I don't know if that means anything. It's just interesting, that's all I'm saying.

[Sir_Norbert]

Okay, now that we know what the game is, we know that the pea, (in this case the gate,) is not in any of the choices the game operator offers.

Only if we accept the assertion -- which so far is a complete assumption with nothing to back it up -- that a shell game is being played here.

Look at it from Serini's point of view: you want the gate to be as well-protected as possible, to make it as difficult as possible for intruders to violate it. Putting it somewhere in the dungeon full of dangerous monsters achieves this, as far as we can tell from what we've been shown so far.

The lots of doors is a puzzler, though. If it is a straight-up "there are N dungeons, the gate is in one of them", then you're risking the intruder getting the correct one early on by chance. (Of course, the Monster's actions help here, but Serini couldn't have predicted that.) So I think there will be more to it in some way. But this certainly won't involve the gate being outside the dungeon altogether; then you're risking the intruder looking at the dangerous monsters, deciding not to bother with them, and searching the outside first.

[georgie_leech]

Only if we accept the assertion -- which so far is a complete assumption with nothing to back it up -- that a shell game is being played here.

Look at it from Serini's point of view: you want the gate to be as well-protected as possible, to make it as difficult as possible for intruders to violate it. Putting it somewhere in the dungeon full of dangerous monsters achieves this, as far as we can tell from what we've been shown so far.

The lots of doors is a puzzler, though. If it is a straight-up "there are N dungeons, the gate is in one of them", then you're risking the intruder getting the correct one early on by chance. (Of course, the Monster's actions help here, but Serini couldn't have predicted that.) So I think there will be more to it in some way. But this certainly won't involve the gate being outside the dungeon altogether; then you're risking the intruder looking at the dangerous monsters, deciding not to bother with them, and searching the outside first.

I wonder if it would require cooperation of some sort. Like, multiple groups with varied skill sets have to pass multiple dungeons at the same time. Would fit with her attempts to honour Kraggor; what better way to honor his memory than to require his companions rejoin forces to get to the Gate?

[brian 333]

I wonder if it would require cooperation of some sort. Like, multiple groups with varied skill sets have to pass multiple dungeons at the same time. Would fit with her attempts to honour Kraggor; what better way to honor his memory than to require his companions rejoin forces to get to the Gate?

Interesting. That was how Dorukon guarded his gate as well: each of the symbols had to be touched simultaneously. I have to admit the idea has merit, and was forshadowed far eaflier than the Azure City shell game.

When I saw all the doors I said to myself, what a phenominal waste of time it would be to search them all. Then I recalled a maze I spent weeks drawing, only to have the party go straight to the center on the first try. (All my boss encounters were on the perimeter.) That's when I decided all the doors are the wrong one, and that Serini's game was misdirection.

[Fyraltari]

Interesting. That was how Dorukon guarded his gate as well: each of the symbols had to be touched simultaneously. I have to admit the idea has merit, and was forshadowed far eaflier than the Azure City shell game.

Nitpick: that's how he guarded the talisman of obsolete monsters not the gate.

[archon_huskie]

I think the OP is on to something. You know what I didn't see anywhere near Monster's Hollow? A tree.

Know what would be extremely odd at the North Pole? A tree.

[Fyraltari]

I think the OP is on to something. You know what I didn't see anywhere near Monster's Hollow? A tree.

Know what would be extremely odd at the North Pole? A tree.

Now, if I may be so bold I would like to say that I think there's a slight possibility Serini made some landscaping in the last 70-odd years.

I may also venture the guess that we can see the mortal reamains of that tree in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html).

[archon_huskie]

All those doors from one tree? Trees don't tend to grow at the poles. look at Antarctica.

Monster Hollow is a tomb for this dwarf. But the tomb does not contain his body.

Three of the gates have been rings with the magic sealing the rift. Very arcane looking.
Another has been a sapphire.

Reading the dialogue, the spell was cast while Kraagor wasn't clear. I believe that statue we see in #276 is the sealed gate and the statue is Kraagor's body. further more it is not the same statue we see in 1039.

[Keltest]

All those doors from one tree? Trees don't tend to grow at the poles. look at Antarctica.

Monster Hollow is a tomb for this dwarf. But the tomb does not contain his body.

Three of the gates have been rings with the magic sealing the rift. Very arcane looking.
Another has been a sapphire.

Reading the dialogue, the spell was cast while Kraagor wasn't clear. I believe that statue we see in #276 is the sealed gate and the statue is Kraagor's body. further more it is not the same statue we see in 1039.

The Sapphire was the seal, but it wasn't the gate. The gate and rift were in the sky above Azure City.

Likewise, it is incredibly unlikely that the statue has anything to do with the gate beyond being a marker for Kraagor. That's just begging for trouble like, say, a tribe of bugbears moving in and messing with it.

[Fyraltari]

All those doors from one tree? Trees don't tend to grow at the poles. look at Antarctica.
Obviously not, don't make you dumber than you are. I was mereley suggesting that that particular tree was used to make let's say... three doors?
The other doors were made with the same trees the bugbears get there wooden furniture, shutters and roofs from.
You know what else you don't commonly findat poles? Villages. High concentration of large beasts that can sustain itself despite the presence of hunters. It's magic, dont overthink it.


Monster Hollow is a tomb for this dwarf. But the tomb does not contain his body.
Tombs do not require bodies. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cenotaph)



Three of the gates have been rings with the magic sealing the rift. Very arcane looking.
Another has been a sapphire.
Actually Soon's gate wasn't the saphire, it was inside the saphire



The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

Hopefully, that clears the issue up.


Reading the dialogue, the spell was cast while Kraagor wasn't clear. I believe that statue we see in #276 is the sealed gate and the statue is Kraagor's body. further more it is not the same statue we see in 1039.
I assumed that the spell dragged the Snarl back intotheRift and everything within the area of effect with it but itis true that it is not stated.
What makes you so sure they aren't the same statue? They both are human-sized and both show Kraagor standing up with his arms hanging on his sides.

[Peelee]

All those doors from one tree? Trees don't tend to grow at the poles. look at Antarctica.

It's not quite the pole, but the Taiga is one helluva forest.

[archon_huskie]

Dont be rude.

Obviously not, don't make you dumber than you are.

[archon_huskie]

It's not quite the pole, but the Taiga is one helluva forest.

Yes. A more likely location for the gate to be.

[hamishspence]

This is just a theory of course but when you look at the crayon history of the gates, they are fighting on the surface, in the next frame we see there is now a dwarf statue with the only major difference being a tree in the background... I think that Statue is the retainer for the gate.

We did see a tree in the background here (the panel showing all 5 rifts)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

and here (the panel where the purple worm is being lowered in):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html


It's not quite the pole, but the Taiga is one helluva forest.
Remind me - which map has the Taiga on it? I've been doing a bit of searching and can't find it - was it in a bonus strip?

[Fyraltari]

Dont be rude.

Sorry, I thought you were being snide. I apologize.

[Emanick]

Remind me - which map has the Taiga on it? I've been doing a bit of searching and can't find it - was it in a bonus strip?

I think Peelee's referring to Earth's Taiga.

[Onyavar]

Aside from Soon's gate, notice how Serini's gate is the ONLY one not explicitly shown?

I think maybe the statue theory might have some merit.

We get to see in 277: one gate as it appeared in the prequel comic. Two gates still in the open that later were surrounded with buildings. And two gates are not shown, instead their defenses. True: the sapphire was a twist that'd have been spoiled by showing it earlier. But that just means we have no idea how Serini's Gate looks like. (I like the idea too, that Kraagors tomb != the gate location, but so far the whole cast including Redcloak believes differently, so I don't give that a big chance.)

Before seeing the statue in the middle of a bugbear village, I also had the idea that the Gate was sealed with Kraagors body, and that the statue from 276 WAS Kraagor, and also the gate.
But as everyone pointed out, that would make Kraagors Gate the worst defended one of the entire bunch.

However, I think that Oona and her village aren't actually at the North Pole but some degrees south of that, at a place where it is (or once was) possible to grow trees.
Maybe they removed the trees when they erected a mountain of multidimensional stone. Or we just don't see the trees because right now it's deep winter. Or the bugbears cut em down. Or it's a permanent weather spell that makes the place 20 degrees colder, and trees no longer grow there.

[factotum]

However, I think that Oona and her village aren't actually at the North Pole but some degrees south of that, at a place where it is (or once was) possible to grow trees.


We already know that Kraagor's Gate isn't at the North Pole. In #331 Roy explicitly states that it's "near the northern polar cap", which implies it's even a bit south of the permanent ice and snow region.

[hamishspence]

Lien & O-Chul did apparently say they were there:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1050.html

And there's this map:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html

and Lien & O-Chul having trekked across frozen sea:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1031.html

before arriving on land again.

I think we're given reason to believe Monster Hollow is on the island with the North Pole on.

That said, it is possible that the island is a small continent - "inverse Antarctica". Maybe with Monster Hollow being very close to the coast, and all "North Pole" references being general, referring to the region as a whole, rather than to the exact geographic point.