Raising a CR 24 to 25

[Davrix]

Anyone know how to do this easily. I honestly find the DMG rules in constructing monsters not that very well written in this ed

[Talamare]

Give it +40 HP and like +1 to hit and damage?

That's literally coming out of nowhere, but I doubt players would really be able to tell a significant power different between such close CRs anyways...

[Davrix]

Give it +40 HP and like +1 to hit and damage?

That's literally coming out of nowhere, but I doubt players would really be able to tell a significant power different between such close CRs anyways...

That's kind of what i got from the DMG for the math it just seems... so BLEH. I really don't like 5th's monster math all that much.

[Talamare]

That's kind of what i got from the DMG for the math it just seems... so BLEH. I really don't like 5th's monster math all that much.

Well...

It's tricky to give interesting suggestion when we don't know the Monster idea we are talking about...

If it's a Mage, giving it a powerful new spell would increase it's CR
If it's a Beast, giving it a powerful new mechanic would increase it's CR

etc

[PhoenixPhyre]

Anyone know how to do this easily. I honestly find the DMG rules in constructing monsters not that very well written in this ed

This will depend on the monster. Which one in particular do you want to do?

The two existing CR 24s are the Ancient Red and Gold dragons (which for CR purposes are basically identical).

Both are over-guideline already, weighing in at CR 26 (24 offensive, 28 defensive).

If you want to make them harder, increase their DPR by about 30.

Their DPR comes from the following:

Round 1: Breath weapon, hitting 2 that fail their save: 91x2 damage = 182
Round 2 & 3: Multiattack: Bite (35) + 2x claw (2x17) = 69
Each round gets 3x legendary tail attacks: 3x19 = 57
Average: (182 + 69x2)/3 + 57= 106.7 + 57 = 163.67

This calculates to a offensive CR of 22; including the fact that they have a +17 to hit (vs +11 from the guideline for CR 22) increases the offensive CR to 25.

Defensively, they have 546 HP, increased by 90 (3x30 for legendary resistances), so 636 effective HP. That gives a defensive CR of 26. Their AC is 23 (+1 due to the frightful presence), which is 4 higher than guidelines, increasing the defensive CR to 28

Thus, the ancient red dragon has a calculated CR of 26.5.

Based on playtesting, it really doesn't act that way, mainly due to severe action economy deficits and smart play (meaning it doesn't always hit 2 PCs with its breath or always have a chance for 3 tail attacks.

[Davrix]

its a ancient gold, its for a silly little one shot utterly broken end of the world thing we are doing at my table as a laugh for a bit of fun.

the ancient gold is CR24 but the rules say you increase it by 1 when it establishes a lair so I was wondering if the lair is just the reason it goes up or does the stat change at all. I find this whole offensive Def calculations both simple and yet frustrating annoying where I prefer the simple templates of 4th ed monsters in how you raise and lower there CR. Sorry its late I should of explained better in my OP

[PhoenixPhyre]

its a ancient gold, its for a silly little one shot utterly broken end of the world thing we are doing at my table as a laugh for a bit of fun.

the ancient gold is CR24 but the rules say you increase it by 1 when it establishes a lair so I was wondering if the lair is just the reason it goes up or does the stat change at all. I find this whole offensive Def calculations both simple and yet frustrating annoying where I prefer the simple templates of 4th ed monsters in how you raise and lower there CR. Sorry its late I should of explained better in my OP

The extra CR from being in a lair is due to the lair actions (which solve a lot of the action economy issues).

Here's the thing--for solos at high levels (especially in a one-fight day), CR really doesn't mean much (at least for small changes). Going from a CR 24 to a CR 30 makes a difference, but CR 24 to CR 25 really doesn't. So don't sweat it.

I've found that my level 19 party (in a high-magic game) tends to punch well above their weight. They can handle about 1.5x as much per short rest as the guidelines suggest.

[Davrix]

The extra CR from being in a lair is due to the lair actions (which solve a lot of the action economy issues).

Here's the thing--for solos at high levels (especially in a one-fight day), CR really doesn't mean much (at least for small changes). Going from a CR 24 to a CR 30 makes a difference, but CR 24 to CR 25 really doesn't. So don't sweat it.

I've found that my level 19 party (in a high-magic game) tends to punch well above their weight. They can handle about 1.5x as much per short rest as the guidelines suggest.

Well I get that but this was more based on the idea I'd be playing the dragon as a character so I wanted to make sure I understood the math behind going up a CR with a lair. Thanks for clearing it up. Now I just have ot figure out how to build a damn NPC for the DM that's lv 30 and no not CR 30 heh

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well I get that but this was more based on the idea I'd be playing the dragon as a character so I wanted to make sure I understood the math behind going up a CR with a lair. Thanks for clearing it up. Now I just have ot figure out how to build a damn NPC for the DM that's lv 30 and no not CR 30 heh

Level 30 is meaningless--the levels stop at 20 and doing some X 20/Y 10 isn't really level 30. And CR and level are pretty darn uncorrelated (other than more is usually, but not always, more).

What are you trying to accomplish? I can probably help if you'll give more parameters.

* What level is the party?
* How well are they equipped (+3 for everyone? Legendaries all around?)
* What style of encounter are you going for?

Edit: and if you're playing the monster as a player character.............well, that's well into unsupported territory. Not only are there no rules for that, there's no intent for that to work. My recommendation--don't. The system will be fighting you every step of the way.

[Davrix]

Level 30 is meaningless--the levels stop at 20 and doing some X 20/Y 10 isn't really level 30. And CR and level are pretty darn uncorrelated (other than more is usually, but not always, more).

What are you trying to accomplish? I can probably help if you'll give more parameters.

* What level is the party?
* How well are they equipped (+3 for everyone? Legendaries all around?)
* What style of encounter are you going for?

Its a short month long thing, end of the world battle among ancient empire leaders sort of deal.

its 3 people all Lv 20
I'm playing the shenanigans lv 20 wizard doing the dragon thing, to long to explain how I wind up as a ancient gold but he's going to die at the end so eh.
lv 20 barb duel wielding vorpal great axes, think female Kratos lol
Lv 20 fighter, were still working on the custom gear for him but its silly

The Lv 30 NPC is suppose to be the queen of the empire, she has the soul of a fallen god insider of her (divine soul Sorc probably) who is at the point of, the more she fights the stronger she gets and is slowly ascending in the middle of this final war and yea bad things are happening to reality sort of deal

We are all really good friends and we all take turns DM'ing so between our work stuff we tend to split up tasks like this. He's doing the story and I'm working on gear and the lv 30 NPC and helping everyone build a character to lighten his load.

[Unoriginal]

I find this whole offensive Def calculations both simple and yet frustrating annoying where I prefer the simple templates of 4th ed monsters in how you raise and lower there CR. Sorry its late I should of explained better in my OP

CR doesn't work the same way in 5e than in 4e.


Its a short month long thing, end of the world battle among ancient empire leaders sort of deal.

its 3 people all Lv 20
I'm playing the shenanigans lv 20 wizard doing the dragon thing, to long to explain how I wind up as a ancient gold but he's going to die at the end so eh.
lv 20 barb duel wielding vorpal great axes, think female Kratos lol
Lv 20 fighter, were still working on the custom gear for him but its silly

The Lv 30 NPC is suppose to be the queen of the empire, she has the soul of a fallen god insider of her (divine soul Sorc probably) who is at the point of, the more she fights the stronger she gets and is slowly ascending in the middle of this final war and yea bad things are happening to reality sort of deal

We are all really good friends and we all take turns DM'ing so between our work stuff we tend to split up tasks like this. He's doing the story and I'm working on gear and the lv 30 NPC and helping everyone build a character to lighten his load.

You can take a lvl 20 PC, then add 10 HD, one feat and 8 Boons

Or you can take a lvl 20 PC and add 10 HD + the class features of another class up to lvl 12

[Davrix]

CR doesn't work the same way in 5e than in 4e.

You can take a lvl 20 PC, then add 10 HD, one feat and 8 Boons

Or you can take a lvl 20 PC and add 10 HD + the class features of another class up to lvl 12

thats not a bad idea i may tinker with that later. And i know 5th uses different logic for the CR i just happened to miss 4th ed way of handling it.

Anyway its super late for me so I'll get back to this post when I wake up in a few hours heh.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

My advice? bump up HP give it some spells, and +X to hit and damage.

[Malifice]

Here is my undead dragon Dragotha - 2IC to the BBEG (currently running an Age of Worms Campaign; the PCs have just hit 20th and are in possession of a few artifacts and other high end magic gear):

Dragotha
Gargantuan undead, Neutral evil
Armor Class 25 (natural armor, ring of protection)
Hit Points 615 (30d20 + 300)
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft., fly 80 ft.
STR 30 (+10) DEX 10 (+0) CON 30 (+10) INT 18 (+4) WIS 15 (+2) CHA 27 (+8)
Saving Throws Str +11, Dex +9, Con +20, Int +5, Wis +12, Cha +18
Skills Perception +22, Stealth +9, Arcana +13, Religion +13, History +13, Insight, +13, Intimidate +17
Damage Immunities fire, poison, necrotic
Damage resistances cold, lightning; slashing, bludgeoning and piercing from non-magical weapons
Condition immunities charmed, frightened paralysed, poisoned, exhaustion
Senses blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 32
Languages Common, Draconic, Abyssal, Azlanti, Infernal, Ignan, Dwarven, Elven, Undercommon
Challenge 27 (105,000 xp)
Legendary Resistance (4/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.
Rejuvenation: If it has a phylactery, a destroyed lich gains a new body in 1d10 days, regaining all its hit points and becoming active again. The new body appears within 5 feet of the phylactery.
Magic resistance: The dragon has advantage on saves against spells and other magical effects
Innate spellcasting: Dragotha can innately cast the following spells 1/day: Foresight*, Power word kill, Counterspell, Shield, Haste*, Dominate Monster, Misty step, Mirror image*. The save DC is 26, his bonus to hit with spell attacks is +16.

If alerted to the PCs, Dragotha casts these spells in the following order [Foresight, Mirror image, Haste]

Actions
Multiattack. The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.
• Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 23 (2d12 + 10) piercing damage plus 18 (4d8) necrotic damage.
• Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 19 (2d8 + 10) slashing damage.
• Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 21 (2d10 + 10) bludgeoning damage.
• Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon's choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 26 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
• Deathwind Breath (1/ Long rest). The dragon exhales necrotic wind in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 26 Strength saving throw, taking 108 (24d8) necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. In addition, on a failed save they are pushed back 1d4x10’ and knocked prone.
• Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6). The dragon exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 26 Dexterity saving throw, taking 108 (24d8) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Legendary actions
The dragon can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.
• Detect. The dragon makes a Wisdom (Perception) check.
• Tail Attack. The dragon makes a tail attack.
• Wing Attack (Costs 2 actions). The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 15 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 26 Strength saving throw or take 19 (2d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage and be knocked 10’ away from the dragon prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed.
Lair Actions
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can’t use the same effect two rounds in a row:
• Noxious gases form a cloud in a 20-foot-radius sphere centred on a point the dracolich can see within 120 feet of it. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is lightly obscured. It lasts until initiative count 20 on the next round. Each creature that starts its turn in the cloud must succeed on a DC 20 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of its turn. While poisoned in this way, a creature is incapacitated.
• The dracolich targets one creature it can see within 30 feet of it. A crackling cord of negative energy tethers the dracolich to the target. Whenever the lich takes damage, the target must make a DC 20 Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the lich takes half the damage (rounded down), and the target takes the remaining damage. This tether lasts until initiative count 20 on the next round or until the lich or the target is no longer in the lich's lair.
• The dracolich calls forth the spirits of creatures that died in its lair. These apparitions materialize and attack one creature that the lich can see within 60 feet of it. The target must succeed on a DC 20 Wisdom saving throw, taking 67 (15d8) necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a success. The apparitions then disappear.

Gear: Dragotha wears a ring of protection, an Ioun stone of mastery, and a ring of mind-linking

[ad_hoc]

Its a short month long thing, end of the world battle among ancient empire leaders sort of deal.


Just so you know the game recommends the following challenges by tier:

Tier 4 (17-20) Threats to planes/the multiverse
Tier 3 (11-16) Threats to regions/continents

This sounds like a Tier 3 game. In Tier 4 the characters are traversing the planes meddling in the affairs of gods.

[Davrix]

Just so you know the game recommends the following challenges by tier:

Tier 4 (17-20) Threats to planes/the multiverse
Tier 3 (11-16) Threats to regions/continents

This sounds like a Tier 3 game. In Tier 4 the characters are traversing the planes meddling in the affairs of gods.

Not really the point nor any relevance to what we are doing and besides we have never paid attention to the tiers because that system puts a limit on what kind narration/setting you should be using for the story and yea know what, if you want a lv 20 city campaign by all means you should be able to run one. Even if its silly and nonsensical at times. If the table is having fun, your having fun.

[LordEntrails]

The +1 CR for being in it's lair shouldn't just be about lair actions. It's lair should be designed to benefit it's defense. You know, traps, advantageous positions, places designed for tactical retreat... Every advantage you can think of.

After all, and ancient dragon isn't going to just lair up in a cave that's a big room with a a tunnel entrance. It has had centuries to find the best place to store it's hoard and protect it's own hide. Whatever advantage you can think of, give it.

[ad_hoc]

Not really the point nor any relevance to what we are doing and besides we have never paid attention to the tiers because that system puts a limit on what kind narration/setting you should be using for the story and yea know what, if you want a lv 20 city campaign by all means you should be able to run one. Even if its silly and nonsensical at times. If the table is having fun, your having fun.

It has everything to do with it.

This thread is about what challenges the party.

The tier guidelines are a good example of that.

If you don't care about what challenges the party, then why have a thread about how to appropriately challenge the party?

[Davrix]

The +1 CR for being in it's lair shouldn't just be about lair actions. It's lair should be designed to benefit it's defense. You know, traps, advantageous positions, places designed for tactical retreat... Every advantage you can think of.

After all, and ancient dragon isn't going to just lair up in a cave that's a big room with a a tunnel entrance. It has had centuries to find the best place to store it's hoard and protect it's own hide. Whatever advantage you can think of, give it.


Sense its in part wizard shenanigans doing this he probably hasn't had as much time to build one. I think we established hes only been around for about 500 years. That being said totally going batman on this guy with over planning lol. My DM laughed when I explained how he gets in and out of his Lair.

[Mith]

Sense its in part wizard shenanigans doing this he probably hasn't had as much time to build one. I think we established hes only been around for about 500 years. That being said totally going batman on this guy with over planning lol. My DM laughed when I explained how he gets in and out of his Lair.

Keep in mind, that the CR boost only counts in the lair itself, even though as previously mentioned, it doesn't matter much.

[Davrix]

Keep in mind, that the CR boost only counts in the lair itself, even though as previously mentioned, it doesn't matter much.

Ah that's a good point, I didn't actually catch that the first time.