Barbarian/Bard 3.5e Build Help - not ToB

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all,

I have been thinking about setting up a character concept for a barbarian bard. It doesnt need to be top tier, I am not looking for game breaking. Most of the groups I play with (if I get to play 3.5e) are low op. We are talking they tend to not multiclass, nor use optimal spells or builds. Pure monks are effective if they take tripping or disarming builds, druids focus on one aspect of their class, wizards are either blasters or buffers, clerics tank. That sort of thing.

There are a few things I would like to have in mind.


It cant use ToB. ToB might or might not be allowed at the table, but I am not looking for a power level that NEEDS it.
Needs to come online at low-mid levels. Games I am in run from 1 to typically 12 or so. Getting "full milage" by level 6-8 is acceptable. Builds designed around level 20 are unrealistic.
Try to stick to a very low op view as RAI. RAW cheese would be thrown out at best, cause an argument at worst. If in doubt, throw it out.


I did do a quick search on this but some broken links left me feeling... a bit lost.

I did have a few ideas, and saw a few more, so heres my rough initial idea.

Id like to go Barb for first level. That gets me off the ground. But given the feats I need, I think I need to go Bard instead. Probably human, as I have a feeling I am going to be feat starved. Either go Dragonborn of Bahamut or pick up draconic heritage (probably the latter, even though it kills a feat, but sonic damage would be nice). Second feat needs to be dragonfire inspiration.

I gain nothing yet for going Barb at level 2, so another level of Bard to grab that second song per day.

Barb for 3, feat Lingering Song. Now at BAB+2. I believe it isnt too much of a stretch to say that the RAI (and RAW for that matter) have Dragonfire Inspiration count as Inspire Courage. That means Lingering Song works on DFI. I am fairly sure that would fly at my tables.

Barb for 4 and 5 gets me BAB+4, meaning I qualify for...

Rage Mage at 6th. Pick up extra rage.

After that, I am a little stuck. Probably stick with Rage Mage for a bit.

The issue is, I am stuck with very few songs and rages per day. Extra Rage can be picked up at 9th. I think isnt there an item for more songs?

Like I said, not the most optimized build. But I am getting extra damage from DFI, hopefully sonic. Dragonborn means I can get Lingering Song or have a floating feat at first. I could delay Rage Mage for a level (to level 7), so I get Bard2/Barb4, giving me 2 rages and 2 songs per day. Really I would like to squeeze power attack in there somewhere.

Build is, of course, very MAD, but if I focus on self buffing, I dont need to worry about spell DC.

Do people have tweaks/continuations of this? All books are allowed EXCEPT ToB, and no PF at this point. Hes never going to be the party DPS, but Im looking for him to hold his own in combat, spell buff himself, and buff everyone with DFI. Probably 2 handed but if I have to dump Dex (I know, I know) I can go sword and board and even with my totally all over the place build plan, I would probably be middle/top of the pack in damage. Games are Combat focused, face isnt necessary all that much.

[Troacctid]

Forget the Barbarian base class and go Battle Howler. It's a prestige class from Dragon #311 that does exactly what you want. You get Rage, full BAB, martial weapons, all armor, full progression of spellcasting and bardic music, the ability to use bardic music while raging, and a +1 bonus to Inspire Courage. It's super sweet.

Memory Smith from the same issue is also quite good for melee bards, but perhaps does not match the theme as well.

[Darrin]

Id like to go Barb for first level. That gets me off the ground. But given the feats I need, I think I need to go Bard instead. Probably human, as I have a feeling I am going to be feat starved. Either go Dragonborn of Bahamut or pick up draconic heritage (probably the latter, even though it kills a feat, but sonic damage would be nice). Second feat needs to be dragonfire inspiration.


Bard 1 will give you more skill points. Consider making your bard's home city "Salkiria". He doesn't necessarily have to be from the Ghostwalk setting, but as per the Ghostwalk 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a), bards from Salkiria gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bola flail) as a bonus feat. The bola flail synergizes well with Wolf Totem Barbarian (Improved Trip), or you can use the bonus feat for Dragonborn shenanigans.

Feat-wise, you'll need to decide if you're happy with [fire] damage from Dragonfire Inspiration. If so, then Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic) will get you a bonus feat along with the dragonblood subtype. If you want [sonic] damage or something else, then you'll have to pick up the Dragontouched feat to qualify for Draconic Heritage. (There's another way to qualify for Draconic Heritage, dipping Dragon Shaman 1, but it will cost you a level instead of a feat.)

As far as going Dragonborn... as per the rules on page 10 of Races of the Dragon, you can lose any other feat instead of your human bonus feat. So you could drop EWP (bola whip) or one of your shield proficiencies if you like. You can also trade one of your existing feats for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail.



I gain nothing yet for going Barb at level 2, so another level of Bard to grab that second song per day.


Well, you do get 1st level spells, and thus you can pick up inspirational boost for buffing your Inspire Courage bonus.



Barb for 3, feat Lingering Song. Now at BAB+2. I believe it isnt too much of a stretch to say that the RAI (and RAW for that matter) have Dragonfire Inspiration count as Inspire Courage. That means Lingering Song works on DFI. I am fairly sure that would fly at my tables.


I would probably wait a bit later for Lingering Song... taking Melodic Casting here might be better, allowing you to cast spells/trigger wands while doing your Dragonfire Inspiration thing. Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) might also be good here, although you might be able to pick that up at Bard 6 by swapping Suggestion for it (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 34).

If your bard is going to do any melee, consider Spirit Lion Totem to trade Fast Movement for Pounce. If you'd rather not get your hands dirty in melee, then Spirit Eagle Totem gets +4 on Spot/Search, Spirit Fox Totem gets +4 on Hide/Move Silently, and Spirit Wolf Totem gets +2 attack bonus when flanking. I'd also pick up Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana) for the Dex buff and extra attack.



Barb for 4 and 5 gets me BAB+4, meaning I qualify for...

Rage Mage at 6th. Pick up extra rage.


Picking up another level of Barbarian for Wolf Totem is good to pick up Improved Trip, but I'm not sure I would take any more levels of Barbarian after that. Improved Trip works well with trip weapons, such as the whip, bola flail (Ghostwalk), or whip-dagger (A&EG). Note that taking Bard 3 and Bard 4 also gains you +1 BAB.

However, Bard 2/Barb 3 does not qualify you for Rage Mage. You need Combat Casting and 2nd level arcane spells. Earliest entry is Bard 4/Barbarian 1, but without flaws or that human bonus feat, you may need another level to pick up Combat Casting at 6th. Bard 4/Barbarian 2 is a pretty decent entry into Rage Mage, but you can put off that 2nd level of Barbarian for whenever if you like.



After that, I am a little stuck. Probably stick with Rage Mage for a bit.


I would recommend sticking with Bard until at least 6th to swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart. I might stick it out until Bard 8 to pick up Inspire Courage +2, but before you do that you're going to want to decide if you want to go into Sublime Chord. If so, then your build is probably going to be Bard 6/Barbarian 2/Rage Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/etc. However, it sounds like you're probably not all that interested in becoming Sorcerer Supreme.



The issue is, I am stuck with very few songs and rages per day. Extra Rage can be picked up at 9th. I think isnt there an item for more songs?


There's at least one item that grants one additional rage per day, but I don' t think there are any that grant extra uses of bardic music.

Mantle of Rage can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MagicItems.pdf) (although we're not entirely sure where that document came from). Most of the other rage-related items/weapons increase the duration rather than grant extra uses.

I think I'd rather take Extra Music at 9th, and maybe wait for Extra Rage until 12th.

Do you know if Flaws are available? If so, then taking one at 1st could get you Extra Music. Two flaws could get you Power Attack.


Forget the Barbarian base class and go Battle Howler. It's a prestige class from Dragon #311 that does exactly what you want. You get Rage, full BAB, martial weapons, all armor, full progression of spellcasting and bardic music, the ability to use bardic music while raging, and a +1 bonus to Inspire Courage. It's super sweet.


Battle Howler of Gruumsh is awesomesauce on toast, but I don't recall them being able to cast while raging... I'll have to check the hardcopy when I get home. Feat requirements (Power Attack and Cleave) would also not leave a lot of room for Dragonfire Inspiration or other bardic music feats.

[Albions_Angel]

Flaws are unlikely.

You are right about my entry screw up. I somehow read it, went "combat casting, second level spells, no problem. Lets focus on BAB" and then forgot the previous 2 requirements! How silly of me.

Dragon mag is probably out. Did Howler make it into Dragon Compendium? I might be able to wrangle that one.

Our tables tend to ignore deity requirements, and we dont use home town/region bonuses.

Looking at Howler, assuming its allowed, that looks really good.

Power attack and cleave can be picked up at level 1.
DFI at level 3.
That leaves extra music for 6th? Or lingering song. Or melodic casting. It is worth noting the class doesnt allow casting in rage.

So Bard2/Barb 3 or Bard3/Barb2 is viable for entry, so long as I cross-class perform as a priority whenever I level as barb. Though, that said, my tables tend to ignore cross class penalties once you have got access to a skill from a given class. And even then, Im not planning on being a skill monkey.

So entry into Howler at 6th, go full howler, that takes me to 10th, and then top off with more barb or bard, or at that point I probably COULD aim to go into Rage Mage if casting during rage was important.

[Troacctid]

It's only in the magazine.

I don't think Rage Mage is good. I think it's better to just accept not being able to cast while raging. Get your buff spells in in advance: Inspirational Boost and Dragonfire Inspiration turn 1 (remember to use a masterwork mandolin), then Bladeweave, rage, and start attacking. Probably use the Whirling Frenzy variant since the extra attack synergizes with the bardic music bonus.

[Hiro Quester]

Lingering song is only useful if you want to layer different bardic music effects. That is use one in the first round, another next round and have each last 10 rounds after you stop singing.

That probably won't be happening unless you can sing Inspire courage in one round and Dragonfire Inspiration in the next (Some DM's rule you can inspire in the regular way or the dragonfire way, but not both simultaneously; check with yours).

Until you get Inspire Greatness (very good for combat folks, and you can target yourself), just get a Harmonizing weapon to keep your bardic music going while you stop singing.

[Deadline]

It's only in the magazine.

I don't think Rage Mage is good. I think it's better to just accept not being able to cast while raging. Get your buff spells in in advance: Inspirational Boost and Dragonfire Inspiration turn 1 (remember to use a masterwork mandolin), then Bladeweave, rage, and start attacking. Probably use the Whirling Frenzy variant since the extra attack synergizes with the bardic music bonus.

I agree that Rage Mage is pretty bad (though I do love the concept of it).

I'm going to suggest another option that could work here, and it has the benefit of being completely core (although also a suboptimal PrC).

Dragon Disciple. It's not too shabby for a melee character, and a Bard 2/Barbarian 3 slides into it just fine. If you can drop a feat on Extra Music or Extra Rage, you should have all you need to be a threat in melee and provide decent support to your allies.

If you wanted to tweak it a bit for more power and add to the dragon theme, you could pick up Dragonfire Inspiration.

Thematically, I think a Brass or Bronze dragon would be a solid choice for a basis. One of those two loves to socialize, and seems like a natural fit for a Bard.

[Darrin]

Dragon mag is probably out. Did Howler make it into Dragon Compendium? I might be able to wrangle that one.


It didn't make it into Dragon Compendium. But Battle Howler is so much awesomesauce that you might be able to talk your DM into allowing it just on the "Rule of Cool" factor... I hope?



Our tables tend to ignore deity requirements, and we dont use home town/region bonuses.


EWP (bola flail) has nothing to do with deity requirements or town/region bonuses. It just says if your bard is from the city of Salkiria, wherever that city might be in the campaign world, you get EWP (bola flail). If you want to get technical about it, you could say you grew up in the actual Ghostwalk city of Salkiria, fell into a dimensional portal, and now you're in a different campaign world.



Looking at Howler, assuming its allowed, that looks really good.


It is definitely on my short list of things from Dragon Magazine that can cause me physical pain if it's not on a DM's list of allowed material.

Best race for Battle Howler is probably going to be Desert Half-Orc from Unearthed Arcana: +2 Con, -2 Int, no Cha penalty. Going Dragonborn means you'll lose Run as a bonus feat (it's not a "nonspecific bonus feat"), but I will pay you an actual $1.00 if you can provide me with proof that you've ever successfully used the Run feat in an actual tabletop game.

If you can get Battle Howler approved... hopefully you can get the Magic-Blooded template from Dragon #306 also approved? A Magic-Blooded Desert Half-Orc would get +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha for ability mods.

[gorfnab]

You may want to look at the War Chanter (CW) and Warrior Skald (RoF) prestige classes since they offer some decent option for a more martial based Bard. Also take a look into the Savage Bard (UA) class variant since it stays in flavor with Barbarian.

[AnimeTheCat]

You may want to look at the War Chanter (CW) and Warrior Skald (RoF) prestige classes since they offer some decent option for a more martial based Bard. Also take a look into the Savage Bard (UA) class variant since it stays in flavor with Barbarian.

You just beat me to all three punches. Savage Bard is delicious flavor when combined with barbarian and War Changer adds more bardic music uses and bardic music effects to your repitoir, freeing up some feats for extra rage if you desire. Alternatively, level 2 bard spell Rage gets you a minor alternative. You can very comfortably dip one level of barbarian for either standard rage or the whirling frenzy variant from UA. You can easily get the feat prerequisites at level 1 still allowing DFI at 3. If you really need tripping abilities, you'll be putting up good damage numbers, I would suggest a knock-down build. You can take a second level of barbarian or take the feat for improved trip then knock down. Best paired with 2 handing and power attack, but rage and DFI are good too. 10 damage is a pretty obtainable damage goal.

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks for the advice all. I am tweaking things now. I have a basic 10 level build for Battle Howler, and I will be building a War Chanter variant for if Dragon Mag is banned. I am liking the feel. Advice on the build would be appreciated. Please remember the low op dynamic of my groups. I am not looking for an ubercharger!

So, stats.

16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha. 32 Pt Buy. Silverbrow Human. Points at 4th and 8th probably either into Str or Cha depending on party casting ability. Probably 2handing either a guisarme (for that trip) or Greatsword for the damage. Getting Harmonising on it ASAP means I can forgo lingering song.

1. Savage Bard 1, Feat (Cleave), Feat (Power Attack). Tons of skill points given that I am not going skill monkey. Max perform
2. Whirling Barbarian 1, Wolf Totem, Rage 1/day. Sink 2 into Perform to keep it maxed. Cross class, but worth.
3. Whirling Barbarian 2, Bonus Feat (Improved Trip), Feat (Extra Rage). I am unsure if I want DFI here or at 6th, but I am low on rages with this build.
4/5. Savage Bard 2/3. Getting that spell list going.
6. Battle Howler 1. Feat (DFI). And the build is now online.
7/10, Battle Howler 2/4, picking up Feat(Knock-Down) at 9. By then, I should easily be doing 10+damage per hit, as I will have 2d8-3d8 (inspirational boost) fire (potentially cold) damage, the weapon itself (2d4 or 2d6, + bonuses), 2 handed strength of 16-18 (raises to 20/22 with whirling), and potentially self casting bull strength.
11/12 are currently floating with this one, and I would likely see what the party needed. Either more bard, more barb, or another prestige. Level 12 feat would likely be greater cleave so I can start to handle large groups of mooks.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks for the advice all. I am tweaking things now. I have a basic 10 level build for Battle Howler, and I will be building a War Chanter variant for if Dragon Mag is banned. I am liking the feel. Advice on the build would be appreciated. Please remember the low op dynamic of my groups. I am not looking for an ubercharger!

So, stats.

16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha. 32 Pt Buy. Silverbrow Human. Points at 4th and 8th probably either into Str or Cha depending on party casting ability. Probably 2handing either a guisarme (for that trip) or Greatsword for the damage. Getting Harmonising on it ASAP means I can forgo lingering song.

1. Savage Bard 1, Feat (Cleave), Feat (Power Attack). Tons of skill points given that I am not going skill monkey. Max perform
2. Whirling Barbarian 1, Wolf Totem, Rage 1/day. Sink 2 into Perform to keep it maxed. Cross class, but worth.
3. Whirling Barbarian 2, Bonus Feat (Improved Trip), Feat (Extra Rage). I am unsure if I want DFI here or at 6th, but I am low on rages with this build.
4/5. Savage Bard 2/3. Getting that spell list going.
6. Battle Howler 1. Feat (DFI). And the build is now online.
7/10, Battle Howler 2/4, picking up Feat(Knock-Down) at 9. By then, I should easily be doing 10+damage per hit, as I will have 2d8-3d8 (inspirational boost) fire (potentially cold) damage, the weapon itself (2d4 or 2d6, + bonuses), 2 handed strength of 16-18 (raises to 20/22 with whirling), and potentially self casting bull strength.
11/12 are currently floating with this one, and I would likely see what the party needed. Either more bard, more barb, or another prestige. Level 12 feat would likely be greater cleave so I can start to handle large groups of mooks.

So, something to look at since you're a human is dropping Cleave at level 1 and picking up Able Learner. It makes it easier and less taxing to keep your perform maxed. You can pick up Cleave later if you so choose (such as for prerequisites or what-not).