More Realism for Gritty Realism?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Dear Community,

the playstyle of our group is no dungeon crawl, mostly one encounter per day. To keep the game balanced, I would like to play Gritty Realism from DMG page267. I also very much prefer the healing rules.

The duration of some spells and abilities will need changing to make sense. Other then that I think it is a simple stretching of the timeline and doesn't change anything regarding the mechanics of the D&D 5 system. To keep it that way, I would like to aim at the recommended 2-3 encounters per short rest and 6-8 encounters per day. If they have encounters roughly every other day, that would mean a long rest is necessary every 4-5 days.

Now to the core of my posting: One full week of rest every 4-5 days of adventuring seems silly to me. That would probably end in the party taking way to many short rests per long rest, probably tipping the balance of the system in the other direction. So I thought a little about how to flavor this.

A short rest could be a 4-6 hours of sleep and a meal. Something hard working people can take for several days (depending on their constitution). Add in some real fighting and 4-5 days of focused activity before a person needs more regeneration time seems reasonable reasonable. One or two days of light activity could be enough to recover then.

Maybe real world soldiers in combat situations would be a good reference point. How long can they keep going? How long can they keep going if lightly wounded? If driven hard, how much time do they need before you can do it again?
Dunno if modern soldier combat is a good comparison to medieval melee fighting but maybe this is a decent reference.

What do you think?

[Unoriginal]

D&D isn't meant to emulate reality, so I'd advise you to not try to base your resting rules on what real life people can or cannot do.

That being said, I think that if you want to make them go week-long "adventuring days" while still not being as hard as having them rest a week each time, 4-6 hours for a short rest and 1-2 for a long rest would be perfectly reasonable.

Keep in mind the 6-8 Medium encounters per adventuring day is an assessment of how much the PCs can handle before exhausting their ressources. You could also have more numerous yet weaker encounters, or fewer but harder encounters for the same effect. You could also have fewer encounters but still Medium to allow the PCs to punch above their weight classes, or make more Hard/Deadly ones to really push the PCs.

[Malifice]

Dear Community,

the playstyle of our group is no dungeon crawl, mostly one encounter per day. To keep the game balanced, I would like to play Gritty Realism from DMG page267. I also very much prefer the healing rules.

The duration of some spells and abilities will need changing to make sense. Other then that I think it is a simple stretching of the timeline and doesn't change anything regarding the mechanics of the D&D 5 system. To keep it that way, I would like to aim at the recommended 2-3 encounters per short rest and 6-8 encounters per day. If they have encounters roughly every other day, that would mean a long rest is necessary every 4-5 days.

I dont think you really do need to mess with spell durations that much. I'd generally leave them as is.

I would have exhaustion recover on a short rest (overnight) however.


Now to the core of my posting: One full week of rest every 4-5 days of adventuring seems silly to me.


Needing a week of R+R after several days of combat, poking around in a dungeon, dealing with half a dozen plus blobs of things tring to kill you etc, doesnt sound silly to me at all!


What do you think

Ive used the gritty rest variant, and it works fine. I also allow the PCs to engage in downtime activity during the 'week off' if they desire (which brings into play the cool rules from XgtE).

To really put the brakes on your campaign, requiring a months worth of training per level gained also works wonders. PCs who dont need to level up, can use that month for downtime if they want (practicing a trade, learning a skill or tool, pit fighting, making, buying or selling magic items etc).

Im currently trialing my own HR for 'resting', They work like this:

A Short rest lasts only 5 minutes (but you cant benefit from more than 2/long rest, and you cant take one more than 1/4 hours). They work as normal, but you can only spend up to a maximum of 1/2 your HD per short rest (minimum of 1) to heal.

Long rests are still overnight affairs, but you recover no HP, and only recover 1/2 your expended HD (round up), which you can spend immediately on waking. If you are capable of casting spells with the Spellcasting feature, or using Mystic arcanum, you only regain 1 expended spell slot of each of levels 1-5, and 1 spell (or arcanum) of levels 6+ on a long rest.

Effectively each long rest is only 1/4 the 'strength' of core long rests. So you get something from resting overnight, but it's not a full recharge.

[Laurefindel]

To echo what Unoriginal said; "gritty realism" is a bit of a misnomer in the sense that it doesn't make the game more realistic nor grittier. It still allows your fighter to unrealistically take a sword through the guts, and it doesn't bring any gritty debilitating injuries or death spiral effects.

That's cool, because you don't want either for D&D. Instead, you want a rule tweak that makes the system consistent with your themes and support a playstyle that work for you and your group. From what I gather, you seem to prefer to run the expected "adventuring day" over a few in-game days and for that, the gritty realism variant works well.

But here, the DMG presents you what is essentially an example of a house rule; feel free to make your own. Personally, I like the short rest = overnight sleep, long rest = weekend type of pace, with exhaustion healing over short rest. I would advise caution about changing the duration of spells (or changing long-rest class ability recharge to short rest), but ultimately you know your own game and group better that any of us.

[ad_hoc]

You don't need to stick strictly to what the variant is in the book.

You can change short and long rests to whatever time frame you like.

Personally I use 2-4 hours for short rests and long rests only in safe areas.

[Malifice]

To echo what Unoriginal said; "gritty realism" is a bit of a misnomer in the sense that it doesn't make the game more realistic nor grittier. It still allows your fighter to unrealistically take a sword through the guts, and it doesn't bring any gritty debilitating injuries or death spiral effects.

Hit Point are not mea...

Ah screw it.

[Honest Tiefling]

D&D isn't meant to emulate reality, so I'd advise you to not try to base your resting rules on what real life people can or cannot do.

Keep in mind, most settings tend to have a few mortals that gained godhood through sheer tenacity or insanity. DnD mortals would look down upon us lowly unoptimized scum, with our randomly generated ability scores (and we don't get to keep the best rolls!) and low amount of hit points.

That said, I'm not sure you want rests to take longer, as your 1/encounter a day might slow down to a crawl. If you want more downtime that's great, but if you are doing things like exploration or character interaction where you might need expendable resources...That might not be the ticket.

However, if you are sold on it, perhaps approach your players with the idea, but also offer them a carrot? Different races, setting boons, higher ability scores, etc. Something shiny to get them to agree.

[Laurefindel]

Hit Point are not mea...

Ah screw it.

Ah! No they aren’t! I was about to say “gritty realism still allows you to fall 50 feet head-first on hard stone and waltz away as if nothing happened”, but that’s another beaten horse. Point was, gritty realism does not add much realism IMO (but is still my favoured way to play)

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Well, maybe the soldier comparison is way over the top :)

I just tried to find values that my players can believe while being good for campaign pacing. I think 4 hour short rests should be fine because they can be done in many situations where a 1 hour short rest could.
One day of relaxing and finding decent beds for a long rest seems like a good measure. The players won't have the feeling their heroes need a vacation every few days but long enough to matter to the story.

Exhaustion recovery could be role played. If they really sleep only 4 hours during the night, they won't recover from exhaustion. If they spend 8, they can shake one level off.

I might still alter the duration of some spells. Rope Trick for example would be even more useless with this rule change.

[Tetrasodium]

I use a modified variant of it in one of my games

Short rest 8hr
Long rest 1week
Gryphon's wings(questionable legality):
Another dirty potion not containing any substance derived from its namesake. Often taken by young apprentices hoping to squeeze in a few hours of extra study instead of sleeping.
Drinking this sweet smelling brew grants benefits of a long rest in the time normally needed for a short rest, but any saving throws are made at disadvantage until the next long rest. After the short rest is completed roll a d20, on a roll of 9-20 there are no furthera side effects; however a roll of 1-8 will result in the die used for saving throws to drop one step each time 1d20>d12+d6>2d8>d12>d8>d6>d4). This effect can be rolled back 1 step with a lesser restoration followed by a long rest. The smell is indeed sweet, but the taste is often compared to rotten carrion.
Greater healing potion:150gp


NPC's frequently throw in one or more to sweeten a deal (among a handful of other double edged sword potions). Completely coincidentally, two of my players were talking to a new guy who joined us about how it & the rests really changes how they play & think about things like spell slot usage & how they actually have a use for their gold stockpiles. I also tend to give out a good number of dragonshards (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonshards) & planar shards that can be used to power various magic items (good for bartering with crafter/vendor type npcs) or trinkets like a dex save finger of death black pearl with silver on it that uses a dex save instead of the usual, a single use false life/blur/etc trinket, etc.

[Malifice]

Ah! No they aren’t! I was about to say “gritty realism still allows you to fall 50 feet head-first on hard stone and waltz away as if nothing happened”, but that’s another beaten horse. Point was, gritty realism does not add much realism IMO (but is still my favoured way to play)

No it doesnt.

A PC with 200 hit points who falls 50 feet onto hard stone, doesnt fall 50' onto hard stone. He is luckily saved (getting snagged on a tree on the way down) for example.

Same deal if he falls in a Volcano full of magma. He instead luckily lands on a rocky earthen outcrop, surrounded by magma (and taking magma damage each round till he escapes).

Dude has 200 points worth of [luck, the will to live, resolve and health].

[the secret fire]

No it doesnt.

A PC with 200 hit points who falls 50 feet onto hard stone, doesnt fall 50' onto hard stone. He is luckily saved (getting snagged on a tree on the way down) for example.

Same deal if he falls in a Volcano full of magma. He instead luckily lands on a rocky earthen outcrop, surrounded by magma (and taking magma damage each round till he escapes).

Dude has 200 points worth of [luck, the will to live, resolve and health].

So hit points become deus ex machina.

It's not any more satisfying an explanation than HP as meat, but that's D&D.

[BW022]

the playstyle of our group is no dungeon crawl, mostly one encounter per day. To keep the game balanced, I would like to play Gritty Realism from DMG page267. I also very much prefer the healing rules.
...
What do you think?

I'd think about the type of game you want to play and start by emulating it without changing the rules.

Why do you only want one encounter per day? What benefit is this? What are you trying to get out of it?

My group often enjoyed roleplaying heavy campaigns and as such tend to limit combat. Typically we only have one per session, so we can spend more time on outdoor, roleplaying, political, puzzles, etc. aspects of the game. However, that doesn't necessarily means one combat per (in-game) day. We might go a couple of sessions investigating, traveling, doing research, etc. and then have one session where we might have three combat encounters -- say breaking into a guild hall.

I don't see one combat encounter per (in game) day as being 'realistic'. It isn't realistic to attack a guild hall and only have one fight of five guards. I find encounters are more realistic if you use realistic numbers -- and have encounters in waves.

Things I do (within the core rules) to average only one combat per session...

Fewer PCs Limit the party size to 4, or even 3. Suddenly normal CR encounters start using a lot of resources.

Vary Combats I often go several sessions with no combats and then one with 2-3 per session and even some where I'll run multiple sessions over a day resulting in 4-5 combats in a day. These are rare, but this makes them more interesting. If players aren't sure what is combat, they tend not to meta-game and nova on the first creature.

Increase the CR Run higher CR monsters so that a single combat might be memorable. This uses more resources. Once players realize that you aren't playing the CR game... they tend to manage resources sparingly.

Split/waves Run combats back-to-back. For example, I've had a group of 20+ gnolls and wolves attack a 2nd-level party. I've intentionally broken them into waves (to make them game/time manageable) but don't give players time to short rest. Maybe if they kill enough creatures in the first two waves, the remainder flee, etc. Encounters such as these tend to keep the players worried and more will be coming and they naturally save resources.

Near Combats Use encounters which threaten combat but require the players to do something else. Have them chased by fifty orcs or need to sneak by a group of dozen giants. Players aren't expected to fight, but learn to run/flee/hide/sneak/negotiate/bluff, etc. Just having a group of horsemen follow the PCs at a distance. Have them moving through (and resting) in unsafe areas. Keep the treat up and players use resources more sparingly.

Get minor combats over with If an encounter doesn't advance plot, just allow the players to 'nova' it and get it over with.

Non-Combat Resources Put in non-combat encounters which still use resources. Needing to get up a cliff can easily blow a couple of fly spells, spider climb, etc. Sneaking past something could easily use up invisibility spells. etc. More traps, travel which doesn't permit resting (chases, violent storms, flash floods, landslide areas, etc.), etc. Maybe the come across a village recently attacks -- and dozens need healing.

Use Varied Encounters Without being unfair, put in varied encounters -- inside the inn, attack them while resting, on horse back, with a lot of innocents around, while fighting a fire, in a bar brawl (where weapons and magic get you in jail), a one-on-one fist fight, ranged only, etc. Again, players might not be able to use their resources as effectively and the combats become more interesting.

Overpowered Combats with "Help" Takes some care, but try setting up combats which are massively over CR'd to the players, but give the players some help. Make some 3rd-level PCs fight two hill giants, but inside a tower. Possibly make them part of a larger fight -- say the same party is helping a wererbear defeat a frost giant and two winter wolves. The party has to get past one of the winter wolves and close a gate. Encounter such as these often make it really difficult for the players to judge how to use resources -- even if they only really need to defeat one winter wolf, they will likely save resources to help the werebear.

Intelligent Foes Without being unfair, use NPCs to specifically negate certain PC abilities. Fog cloud and a counter-spelling cleric can easily go through a lot of party resources or prevent many spells/abilities being used against the party.

Limit Treasure Keeping the treasure low, especially with consumables often results in players less likely to fully use their resources. Try non-standard treasure -- favors, deeds, non-combat items, titles, fame, etc.

For me, a combination of the above is honestly good enough. I use the core rules and it still feels 'gritty'. I'll run sometimes two or three sessions with no 'combats' even though combats were repeatedly threatened. Then, when appropriate, I've run them through 6-7 in a 4 hour (in game period) over two sessions.

[Laurefindel]

No it doesnt.

A PC with 200 hit points who falls 50 feet onto hard stone, doesnt fall 50' onto hard stone. He is luckily saved (getting snagged on a tree on the way down) for example.

Same deal if he falls in a Volcano full of magma. He instead luckily lands on a rocky earthen outcrop, surrounded by magma (and taking magma damage each round till he escapes).

Dude has 200 points worth of [luck, the will to live, resolve and health].

A fighter with 200 hp, who lost 196 hp after a fall, can waltz just as well as a commoner at full health. D&D goes from 100% functional to unconscious and dying with nothing in between, no impairment, no penalties etc. (these impairments and penalties exist as exhaustion levels, but they are not tied to hp). Gritty realism doesn't change that and nor should it (IMO).

All I'm trying to say is that gritty realism =/= more realism. It's a rest variant. They had to give it a name, but I think it was ill-chosen.

[Armored Walrus]

Rest variants have less to do with realism and more to do with how you want your game to play out, time wise. I went with 8 hour short rest and "full day off" long rests for my exploration game. If they decide to hit a dungeon, it will make it harder than normal. But it means I don't have to hit them with 8 wandering encounters on days they are just exploring.

Using the 8 hour short rest, 1 week long rest would have given me more opportunity to do downtime things with them, but I figure if they want that they can always stay in town for a week any time they want. The rest rules I'm using don't prevent it; they don't force it either.

[Malifice]

So hit points become deus ex machina..

They're actually expressly defined as (among other factors like skill, resolve and health) as being luck.

Redshirts (with low HP) just arent that lucky. When Kirk (100 hit points) falls onto a mining platform from orbit, he lands on it. When the redshirt with 10 hit points tries, he falls off the edge and dies.

Hit points represent (among other things) luck. Where a 1st level pleb gets the Greataxe to the face, the 20th level fighter gets luckily missed (or it luckily glances off his armor at the last second) or the dude trying to kill him gets luckily distracted at the last minute or whatever.

HP are an abstraction, that expressly represent a number of intangibles including fate, skill, resolve and luck. How you choose to narrate that abstraction is largely up to you.

[Malifice]

A fighter with 200 hp, who lost 196 hp after a fall, can waltz just as well as a commoner at full health.

No he cant. The Redshirt commoner at full health (4 HP) dies from that fall (takes 196 points of damage).

Kirk on the other hand (with his 200 hp) miraculously has his fall broken by some alien foliage at the last second, or has his jetpack/ jetboots suddenly flare into action, or has a floating Spock catch him on the way down/ or gets beamed by Scotty at the last second, and then re materialises at the bottom. It cost him 196 points of luck though.

He's lucky enough (200 hit points) that he can get into near death situations every single episode, and escape with barely a scratch, and a ripped jumpsuit.

We dont bat an eye when Kirk does it (or Batman does it, or Anakin on the Clone Wars does it, or any other fantasy hero does it) on a daily basis, why should we care if our Fantasy hero does it all the time.

[GreyBlack]

Easy. Cure Wounds and such have a casting time of 10 minutes. Increase long rest and short rest times. Add penalties to raise dead spells.

[Asmotherion]

An easy way in order not to mess up the system is a lore adaptation of the Gritty Realism Rules;

Here is an adaptation for a medieval-like game.

A) No Spellcasting Focci. Arcane Spellcasters need specific (and consumable) spellcasting components they need to gather. Some of them mark them as outcasts, since most spells (even non-necromancy onces) need blood or bones as componens, and more significant ones need at least animal sacrifices (to prepare for example). This can be a good reason for "witch hunts", since people would believe that every spellcaster sacrifices people for spells.

B) Divine Spellcasters are 1 in the thousand, and are generally viewed as saints. However, if they don't abide by the church, they are branded as Heretics, and are hunted just like Arcane Spellcasters. The church might suspect them as Spellcasters or Campions who try to deceive people into Devil worshiping by performing false miracles.

C) Druids are viewed as Pagans and "Devil Worshipers", since they worship "false gods", and are branded in the same way as Arcane Spellcasters. The Church dictates that they commune with Hags and other abominations like that, and they must be purged.

So, spellcasters have it rough overall, and it would make sence they would have their own society away from society. That does not make them Evil, just Outcasts. Some of them might be able to slip in society for a time, but for how long can they resist not to use their talends? Only Bards really have what it takes to subtly pass in society and stay there, without anyone realising they are spellcasters (or branding them as such), since all they do is sing and make people happy.

Hope I gave a nice scope. It's not that I really tried this setting, I just started writing as I read your post, as a proposed idea. I think it emphasises a lot the aspects of medieval witch hunts, the fact that the church withheld a lot of information, as well as the fact that people were generally illiterate and uneducated thus couldn't understand.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Could you please stop posting about the realism of D&D hitpoints? It‘s really off topic.

@BW002
Those are very good suggestions. But I rather change the system then alter the story to fit the system. In the campaign we play the PCs travel to a place where there is this one thing to do. Adding in encounters seems to detract from the importance of that event. Only being able to donthat one event per day also serves our setting.

@Asmotherion
Sounds like the Ravenloft campaign a friend of mine is running :)

I still can‘t decide if I prefer one or two days long rests. One day of light activity just may occur randomly too often.

[GlenSmash!]

Short Rests and Long rests are things that refresh resources. Treated as such, you can assign whatever time value you want to them. Go nuts.

I like that Gritty Realism turns an adventuring day into more or less an adventuring week. It fits more of a Fellowship of the Ring style adventure that I like, and also makes it a more likely that I'll have 2 Short Rests in between long rests.

That said, I actually prefer how Adventures in Middle-Earth handles long rests. By having an environment meet certain criteria before the party can Long Rest there I can easily ensure 2 short rests between long rests even using the default resting time lengths.

[strangebloke]

WRT to long/short rests, what does everyone do as far as balancing certain spells?

For instance, animate dead requires a spell every 24 hours to reassert control. Mage Armor needs to be recast every eight hours. The primary strength of a high-level Hex is that it can last over multiple short rests.

Here's what I did:

<1 hour:Duration as normal.
1-8 hours:Lasts until next short rest
>=8 hours:Lasts until next long rest

Incidentally, this get's rid of all of those 'cast extended mage armor on the day before' tricks, which is neither desireable nor undesireable IMO.