Help me Ladyhawke a new character

[tedcahill2]

This is a hypothetical character that I want to build next time I get a chance to play:

It's a pair of siblings, twin brother and sister, curse so that during the day one of them is human (or humanoid), and the other is an animal (or other companion type creature). Then at night the roles flip.

I really want one to be a caster and the other to be a non-caster type. My initial thought was to have one be a wizard (and his sister would turn into an owl that would be his familiar), and the other would be a ranger (and her brother would turn into a wolf which would be her animal companion). The main thing I want to keep in mind is that, since only one is ever in human form at a given time, they are not to be considered two party members. So they get only a single share of the gold. I figure the way to play that is that the fighter type character would have the majority of the good gear and the caster would go without.

I'd love to hear some alternative build ideas for classes and such. All D&D 3.5 sources are allowed.

So after some thought and suggestions I think I want one sibling to be a hex blade and the other to be a ranger. That covers the familiar/animal companion progression. I think the fact that they're also combat oriented will mesh well so their gear can be similar enough for either to utilize.

I don't really want to be nature oriented, so I'm not stoked on ranger. I know I could urban ranger, but is there another non-ranger, non-druid class that has animal companion as a class feature or ACF?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tedcahill2
My initial thought was to have one be a wizard (and his sister would turn into an owl that would be his familiar), and the other would be a ranger (and her brother would turn into a wolf which would be her animal companion).

I have to say, I do like this concept. Clearly derived from Ladyhawke, but ain’t nothin’ wrong with that. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by tedcahill2
…they are not to be considered two party members. So they get only a single share of the gold.

But the real question is, do they receive only a single share of XP to split between them? That would leave each half of the pair substantially behind the rest of the party, since a familiar or an animal companion won’t offset lost caster levels or other class features.

Depending on the answer, it might be worth adding something extra to the owl- and wolf-forms, maybe allowing them to retain their human minds and be more effective in animal form. Perhaps some sort of mental link, maybe a permanent mutual status effect? Or straight-up telepathy?

[tedcahill2]

I have to say, I do like this concept. Clearly derived from Ladyhawke, but ain’t nothin’ wrong with that. :smalltongue:



But the real question is, do they receive only a single share of XP to split between them? That would leave each half of the pair substantially behind the rest of the party, since a familiar or an animal companion won’t offset lost caster levels or other class features.

Depending on the answer, it might be worth adding something extra to the owl- and wolf-forms, maybe allowing them to retain their human minds and be more effective in animal form. Perhaps some sort of mental link, maybe a permanent mutual status effect? Or straight-up telepathy?

I haven't had this approved through a DM or anything but no. The idea here is to function as a single character, sharing XP and gold as though they were one. I'm not trying to do anything deceptive and get extra benefits. At night I'd play one character, during the day I'd play the other.

[tedcahill2]

64 views and only one response. Damn I thought this was a fun idea. :tongue:

[flappeercraft]

This is what I'm thinking and this should be perfectly RAW legal unless I missed something but the ECL would definitely need to be adjusted via LA buyoff, draining RHD or just DM fiat.

Dvati Lycanthropes with Gestalt. Now of course this will need DM help to function so this is what I suggest. Have them both be lycanthropes of the animal you wish and use something to drain away their RHD and convert it into real level loss to reduce ECL and then acquire gestalt levels, the thing here being that one twin can only use one side of the gestalt so in a Fighter//Wizard gestalt one twin can only use the wizard class features and the other only the fighter features. Now one shifts into an animal and the other is in humanoid form and at night they switch.

[Anthrowhale]

This isn't an easy concept to implement. The closest to a single character with 2 bodies is the Dvati from Dragon Compendium. Of course, they have the same sex and partition hit points.

Another possibility is using Psion/Psicrystal or Wizard/Familiar. In both cases, the minor party has low hit points. An Arcane Hierophant with a Companion Familiar could at least have reasonable hit points and intelligence.

[Telonius]

Hm, lack of gear, animal-related stuff... do you have access to Magic of Incarnum? Totemist could be an option for the Ranger-ish one, especially if he's more embracing of his animal nature.

[tedcahill2]

This isn't an easy concept to implement. The closest to a single character with 2 bodies is the Dvati from Dragon Compendium. Of course, they have the same sex and partition hit points.

Despite the fact that my intention is for them to function as one character, in the game world they are different people.

[Drelua]

Despite the fact that my intention is for them to function as one character, in the game world they are different people.

You'll be re-flavouring some mechanics either way, a dvati sounds like the closest you'll get with actual rules. I mean if I were GM I'd let you do this as long as you weren't trying to be whichever character is more advantageous for the situation, but I'm a lot less concerned with following the rules than many, so it helps to have something close to work from.

Too bad they aren't characters that need similar gear, it would be pretty funny if you had to start taking things off when sunrise and sunset approach. This is an interesting way to partly balance out a caster, though.

[tedcahill2]

You'll be re-flavouring some mechanics either way, a dvati sounds like the closest you'll get with actual rules. I mean if I were GM I'd let you do this as long as you weren't trying to be whichever character is more advantageous for the situation, but I'm a lot less concerned with following the rules than many, so it helps to have something close to work from.

Ah, I see why people keep suggesting Dvati. That's really not the way I'm going here. This is purely a function of their back story.

A pair of twins cursed at birth so that one may never see the sun and the other never sees the moon, or something like that. So that particular part of the character would be totally at the DMs discretion.

I know I want these characters to be mechanically bound to each other somehow, thus the sorcerer's familiar and rangers animal companion concept.

[Zanos]

I'm not sure mechanics are what you need. You need to talk to your DM.

The only ways I know of playing "two" characters are super abusable.

[tedcahill2]

I'm not sure mechanics are what you need. You need to talk to your DM.

The only ways I know of playing "two" characters are super abusable.

I'm so confused as to why this is hard to understand. I the player would have two different characters, but because only one of them is in human form at a time I can only ever benefit from the abilities of one at a time. I'm effectively playing one character at a time, which one depends on the time of day it is. Only advantage I see if if the party is walking around all day and they find a door with an arcane lock or something they could say, "Hey let's just wait here until sunset and ol'wizard will come out and he can get it open for us."

I am just trying to brainstorm what classes I can have each of them be that connects them to their sibling. So in the case of the first one he's a [class] and during the day he becomes a wolf. The second one is a [class] and she becomes an owl at night. When I say they become a wolf/owl I mean literally that. Not like wild shape where they maintain their own mind and such, I mean they become the animal mind, and body. So to ensure that they can stay somewhat relevant in either form I know I need to pick a class for each of them that can empower their sibling when they are in animal form, so a wizard's familiar and a rangers animal companion for example.

That combination is the most obvious one I can come up with, but I know there must be others. So utilizing ACFs, variants, etc. I want to find alternatives.

[Florian]

I'm so confused as to why this is hard to understand.

Because it sounded a bit like you want to have a mechanical solution to it, you know like the PF Vigilante class that can actually switch between two character modes with different powers.

As for your question, I´d go with Druid (wolf companion) and Ranger (hawk companion).

[Kol Korran]

I've never seen Ladyhawke, so I don't know the source inspiration. I think the mechanic must be discussed and agreed upon with thw GM. Some issues to consider:
1- I'm really unsure what sort of experience or motive you have for building this concpet. What sort of gaming experience are you aiming for? Why do you want this? This can help us (and he GM) help you better.
2- The concept does sugget possibilies for added compliations:
- while you do play as one charater at a time, you do have access to more options overall. Versatility and more options ARE power, and some GMs/ other group member may be wary of it. It IS a big thing.
- Is the sibling in animal state still fully aware? Does s/he retain their personalities, awareness, skills,or are they totally different beings in that form? If it's the prior, than their increased mental stats, skills and possibly other abilities may also be a significant power boost.
- What happens if one gets killed? If they get separated?
- What about type? And spells/ effects that affext type?
- The character concept is quite unique, and may feel to other players a bit "too unique". Make sure it's ok with them as well.

I don't have a mechanical solution. I think it may be a cool idea, but needs to be discussed thoroughly with the GM and group.

Good luck!

[Recherché]

It's a cool idea but having each at half XP and half wbl will seriously cripple you at higher levels. Meanwhile there's not really a mechanical advantage if you can't choose which character you're playing when. I mean maybe a small one from not needing to sleep, separate hp pools and the ability to wait and eventually get the abilities you want. It's not worth halving everything though.

I did play a similar idea at one point of a character who through a curse shared one life with their twin. Whenever she was alive her twin was a corpse and whenever the twin was alive she was a corpse. However in this case the twin was a NPC and this all started as an excuse why I could only attend every other session. (And yes the GM knew going in that I would only be available every other week). We ended up playing everything as a joke with her twin being a used camel salesperson and kept my Oracle on pare with XP and wealth despite everything so I wouldn't get useless rapidly.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It's a cool idea but having each at half XP and half wbl will seriously cripple you at higher levels.

Yeah, they should both get full XP. They can only use one powerset at the same time, the animal forms are not full on alternate forms, they're class features of the other character.

There is of course the extra versatility they gain from being two characters. Want to do something rangerish? Wait until it's ranger-time. I think halving their wealth could be a good quick-fix to power them down just enough to compensate for this. So even if it would make way more sense the other way around full XP each but shared wealth sounds great mechanically.

[JyP]

For me, the easiest to modelize this pair would be :

main PC : cursed Lycanthrope (LA +2, or matching savage progression), with Leadership + Improved Cohort feats, to have the cohort at level-1.
secondary PC : is the cohort of main PC, also cursed Lycanthrope.

main problem there is that by RAW your main PC is at least 11th level - 9th level to be able to have a cohort, and it's whenever the main PC gains levels that the cohort also gains one. But some handwavium can be applied generously by the DM for this specific case :smallbiggrin:

[tedcahill2]

For me, the easiest to modelize this pair would be :

main PC : cursed Lycanthrope (LA +2, or matching savage progression), with Leadership + Improved Cohort feats, to have the cohort at level-1.
secondary PC : is the cohort of main PC, also cursed Lycanthrope.

main problem there is that by RAW your main PC is at least 11th level - 9th level to be able to have a cohort, and it's whenever the main PC gains levels that the cohort also gains one. But some handwavium can be applied generously by the DM for this specific case :smallbiggrin:

Again I'm not looking for a mechanical justification of there ability to change form. It's pure RP and DM permission that that happens. Part of a family curse blah blah blah. When they transform into the animal they use all the base abilities of the animal in question (except maybe hit points, but that's a discussion between the DM and I maybe). But for all intents and purposes they are that animal, they have that animals physical and mental stats, and they have lost everything that makes them human, they are truly an animal.

Now the flip side to that is that I know there would be huge negative implications to have a 1HD wolf rolling with you into a 10th level fight. So I wanted to link the animals to their sibling in human form somehow, the most obvious option would be to use a wiz/sorc and his familiar, and a ranger for the animal companion (not doing druid cause I really just want one caster, and a druids wild shape seems trite for a character that turns into an animal against their will every day).

[Florian]

@tedcahill2:

Let me play "bad cop" and actually talk about mechanics: The concept is cool, but you didn't state what happens when one of the siblings dies while in animal or human form. Didn't happen in the movie, so not covered so far, but an actual issue when playing D&D.

[tedcahill2]

@tedcahill2:

Let me play "bad cop" and actually talk about mechanics: The concept is cool, but you didn't state what happens when one of the siblings dies while in animal or human form. Didn't happen in the movie, so not covered so far, but an actual issue when playing D&D.

Like if sibling 1 dies what happens to sibling 2? I could play it either way I guess. On the one hand part of the concept is these siblings being linked so maybe if one dies they both die. On the other hand I see no issue with them being separate in that sense, and if one dies the other continues to live, but is still cursed. Or maybe the curse on the living sibling is broken if the other dies.

[daremetoidareyo]

sorcerer 1/ druid 5 with a bird familiar.

spells
aspect of the wolf, leap into animal.

between share spells and your companion and your familiar, you can grant the animal type and have one of y'all jump into the other. a little dmm persist should do the rest

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Depending on level, you could sweet-talk your DM into allowing Spheres of Power/Might and go Mirrored Soul Summoner/Spheres Shifter. That gets you a twin with all your abilities and a bunch of shapeshifting (including into animals)

[Florian]

Like if sibling 1 dies what happens to sibling 2? I could play it either way I guess. On the one hand part of the concept is these siblings being linked so maybe if one dies they both die. On the other hand I see no issue with them being separate in that sense, and if one dies the other continues to live, but is still cursed. Or maybe the curse on the living sibling is broken if the other dies.

Other things to work out: What happens with ongoing effects, positive and negative, when the switch occurs? Say you have mage armor and shield up when switching to wolf form. Do the two spells go into suspend mode until you switch again or do they keep running in wolf mode? Same thing for a, say, dominate person, then it gets tricky.
See, the problem with the solutions you named is basically a free rezz: One character died and you continue straight with the other. That's why I think a mechanical solution like the Vigilante class is needed to handle the whole lot of inconsistencies that will come up.

[tedcahill2]

Other things to work out: What happens with ongoing effects, positive and negative, when the switch occurs? Say you have mage armor and shield up when switching to wolf form. Do the two spells go into suspend mode until you switch again or do they keep running in wolf mode? Same thing for a, say, dominate person, then it gets tricky.
See, the problem with the solutions you named is basically a free rezz: One character died and you continue straight with the other. That's why I think a mechanical solution like the Vigilante class is needed to handle the whole lot of inconsistencies that will come up.

I don't follow. What's the difference between me rolling up a new character and just already having one that's part of the team?

Regarding ongoing effects: when character 1 turns into an owl at night I would imagine they would still be under whatever effects they already were (assuming animal is a valid creature type for the spell).

[Goaty14]

Again I'm not looking for a mechanical justification of there ability to change form. It's pure RP

I'm confused


I'd love to hear some alternative build ideas for classes and such. All D&D 3.5 sources are allowed.

Sounds like a mechanical justification to me...


The main thing I want to keep in mind is that, since only one is ever in human form at a given time, they are not to be considered two party members.Yes they are. Say they're both wizards -- You get effectively x2 spells known, spell slots, class features, XP, starting gold, and every 12 hours you get the equivalent of a full heal. You have two characters. Sure, two wizards don't both cast fireball at the same time (i.e both of them don't affect party combat strength, save for extra spell slots, hp, uses/day, etc), but still affecting your party in the long haul.


So they get only a single share of the gold. I figure the way to play that is that the fighter type character would have the majority of the good gear and the caster would go without.

VoP sucks, much more without the benefits. Don't try it.

[tedcahill2]

I'm confused

Sounds like a mechanical justification to me...
What I mean is, for them to remain relevant in both human and animal form I need something that buffs the animals. Having one be the familiar/animal companion of the other is the only way I can think of to pull that off.


Yes they are. Say they're both wizards -- You get effectively x2 spells known, spell slots, class features, XP, starting gold, and every 12 hours you get the equivalent of a full heal. You have two characters. Sure, two wizards don't both cast fireball at the same time (i.e both of them don't affect party combat strength, save for extra spell slots, hp, uses/day, etc), but still affecting your party in the long haul.
But they aren't both wizards. I recognized that would be too good. That's why one is explicitly a non-caster.

[tedcahill2]

I adjusted the concept to a Hexblade and Ranger, but still looking for suggestions.

[JyP]

Again I'm not looking for a mechanical justification of there ability to change form. It's pure RP and DM permission that that happens. Part of a family curse blah blah blah. When they transform into the animal they use all the base abilities of the animal in question (except maybe hit points, but that's a discussion between the DM and I maybe). But for all intents and purposes they are that animal, they have that animals physical and mental stats, and they have lost everything that makes them human, they are truly an animal
Again - this matches infected lycanthrope pretty closely, where this kind of curse was already thought out mechanically speaking, no need to reinvent it. Animal forms have the same Hit Points & BAB than humanoid forms, so you have no risk of having an 10th level fighter transformed in 1 HD wolf. This will be 1d8(wolf)+10d10(fighter)+11xCon hp. And if you are wary of the +2 LA, use Savage Progression Lycanthrope instead.

And personally I see it easier to describe 2 linked humans with Improved Cohort feat than with familiars & animal companions, but it's a DM POV :smallsmile: