Idea for cutting down the feat bloat (Pathfinder/Starfinder/3.5)

[Arkhios]

So, recently I was having a discussion with a friend regarding the stunning amount of redundant feats required to qualify for further concepts.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who finds it ridiculous that to be a great archer (for example) you need to take a bunch of uninteresting and arguably even useless feats in order to actually get that one feat that actually makes a difference for the chosen role.

Or that there are feats that let us do stuff that seem like you should be possible even without a feat.

What if, instead of wasting as valuable character resource as feat once you meet the prerequisites for it, you'd simply gain access to it immediately after you meet the prerequisites.

Let's say a feat requires X ranks in a skill Y to let you do Z. Normally you'd have to raise your skill ranks to the minimum required for that feat, then spend that particular feat to get the benefit.

What if, instead of that, you'd simply get the feat as a "perk" of raising the skill that high?

[exelsisxax]

So the solution for "too many feats to choose from" is giving every character a few dozen feats every level?

That sounds pretty terrible. I wouldn't want to keep track of all of that.

[Psyren]

We do this with chains. So for example, TWF still costs a feat. But as soon as you meet the prerequisites, it automatically upgrades itself to ITWF and GTWF without costing any additional feats from you. Other examples are Vital Strike, Dimensional Agility, and the combat maneuver feats (which we consolidated further.)

Note too that the BAB prequisites further up these chains reward full BAB classes - generally, the ones that need more help - for staying single-classed, making the GM's job easier (less sheet auditing.)

[Psyren]

We do this with chains. So for example, TWF still costs a feat. But as soon as you meet the prerequisites, it automatically upgrades itself to ITWF and GTWF without costing any additional feats from you. Other examples are Vital Strike, Dimensional Agility, and the combat maneuver feats (which we consolidated further.)

Note too that the BAB prequisites further up these chains reward full BAB classes - generally, the ones that need more help - for staying single-classed, making the GM's job easier (less sheet auditing.)


So the solution for "too many feats to choose from" is giving every character a few dozen feats every level?

That sounds pretty terrible. I wouldn't want to keep track of all of that.

Yeah, I would tie this to chains (as mentioned) rather than going whole hog and handing them all out with no entry fee at all. That's a lot of feats to keep track of otherwise.

[khadgar567]

You know as far as I know we miss the bloat part in the starfinder and lot of core pathfinder feats are just enough to pull the role it needs to do.

[Arkhios]

We do this with chains. So for example, TWF still costs a feat. But as soon as you meet the prerequisites, it automatically upgrades itself to ITWF and GTWF without costing any additional feats from you. Other examples are Vital Strike, Dimensional Agility, and the combat maneuver feats (which we consolidated further.)

Note too that the BAB prequisites further up these chains reward full BAB classes - generally, the ones that need more help - for staying single-classed, making the GM's job easier (less sheet auditing.)



Yeah, I would tie this to chains (as mentioned) rather than going whole hog and handing them all out with no entry fee at all. That's a lot of feats to keep track of otherwise.

That's essentially what I was aiming for. I forgot to add that you'd still need a few feats first to "unlock" the rest as upgrades and such.


You know as far as I know we miss the bloat part in the starfinder and lot of core pathfinder feats are just enough to pull the role it needs to do.

Not sure if that stems from having too many feat slots to use with too few options, but if that truly is the case, it's pretty easy to cut down the amount of available feat slots as well. Like, as it used to be in 3.5 where you would get feats at 1st level, at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter.

[Geddy2112]

We do this with chains. So for example, TWF still costs a feat. But as soon as you meet the prerequisites, it automatically upgrades itself to ITWF and GTWF without costing any additional feats from you. Other examples are Vital Strike, Dimensional Agility, and the combat maneuver feats (which we consolidated further.)

This is what my table does as well-feats still come online at the same time. In addition, remove some of the asinine requirement feats like combat expertise. My table auto gives combat expertise, deadly aim, agile maneuvers and power attack out. As soon as you qualify for these(+1 bab), you can use them.

[martixy]

What I do is this:
1. PF feat progression (every odd level)
2. Alleviate feat taxes: http://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/
3. Except I don't actually grant all characters feat taxes for free, but allow them to be "bought" with BAB.

[Arkhios]

Most of all what I'd like to do is to remove feats such as Barricade (http://www.starjammersrd.com/feats/combat-feats/barricade-combat/) and Kip Up (http://www.starjammersrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kip-up-combat/) (from Starfinder) and make them "Skill Perks" instead. As feats, these are pure waste of space, but in my honest opinion they would be perfect as synergetic "rewards" (Skill Perks) if you have enough ranks in the skill in question. These abilities stand within reason as something someone who is trained with those skills could reasonably be able to do without any further focus in the form of a feat.

[Psyren]

I'm not so sure of the Starfinder examples. Your swift is very rarely used in Starfinder, and going prone voluntarily is much more common due to its greater focus on ranged combat, so Kip Up could actually be worth a feat there. Barricade meanwhile I view as being more for NPC mooks to make them a bit tougher - as a PC, you should be able to find cover without it (or your group's caster can make some) so I would say you should have better things to do with your actions even if this were free.

[Telok]

I'm playing a Starfinder game now. I can't find any feats that really make my character a better or more interesting technomancer. So levels 7+ are going to stuff like spell penetration, skill focus, and save boosters.

Currently it's similar to being a 3.e fighter in a core only game but being locked into one fighting style. Just not enough relevant feats to take.

[Arkhios]

I'm playing a Starfinder game now. I can't find any feats that really make my character a better or more interesting technomancer. So levels 7+ are going to stuff like spell penetration, skill focus, and save boosters.

Currently it's similar to being a 3.e fighter in a core only game but being locked into one fighting style. Just not enough relevant feats to take.

So you wouldn't technically mind if the gap between getting new feat was longer?

[Telok]

So you wouldn't technically mind if the gap between getting new feat was longer?

Well I'd need to review the feats again (maybe later today) for high level stuff but up through 6th level I only found 3 'need' feats, two of which were to get out of being limited to pistols.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Scaling feat chains, the “Elephant in the Room” feat tax rules, and Spheres of Might have pretty much fixed this at my table. There’s still a bit of hassle with certain builds, but overall base martial competence and build variety have seen huge upticks!