Concentration without CON?

[Goaty14]

How could a player use concentration (i.e for diamond mind, casting) on a creature without a CON score? Specifically a construct, but open to alternatives.

[Eldariel]

How could a player use concentration (i.e for diamond mind, casting) on a creature without a CON score? Specifically a construct, but open to alternatives.

Well, Undead use Charisma for Concentration by default. Constructs don't but it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow it.

[Telonius]

Undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks; that's spelled out in the Undead type description.

For Constructs, most of them are mindless, meaning they have no intelligence score, don't gain skill points or feats, and are immune to all mind-affecting effects. For those creatures it wouldn't be reasonable to let them concentrate, since they have no mind to concentrate; but that would technically be a house rule.

If they don't have something in the listing saying otherwise (like Warforged) it would be a null score in Constitution. Null score would mean no bonus or penalty to the skill check. (Taking the Marut for example, if you reverse-engineer the skill points, it comes out to 9 skill points plus 4 racial, giving it the +13 to Concentration listed in the table).

[Goaty14]

Undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks; that's spelled out in the Undead type description.

For Constructs, most of them are mindless, meaning they have no intelligence score, don't gain skill points or feats, and are immune to all mind-affecting effects. For those creatures it wouldn't be reasonable to let them concentrate, since they have no mind to concentrate; but that would technically be a house rule.

If they don't have something in the listing saying otherwise (like Warforged) it would be a null score in Constitution. Null score would mean no bonus or penalty to the skill check. (Taking the Marut for example, if you reverse-engineer the skill points, it comes out to 9 skill points plus 4 racial, giving it the +13 to Concentration listed in the table).

So "CON: -" is the equivalent of CON: 10 for the purposes of skills? Thanks!

[Necroticplague]

So "CON: -" is the equivalent of CON: 10 for the purposes of skills? Thanks!

Not just skills. Anything that asks for a CON mod that’s still applicable returns 0. So, say, a construct would have +0 con mod to the FORT vs Disintegrate.

[Thurbane]

For calculating DCs, nonabilites default to Cha instead, which can be handy:


Charisma: A creature’s Charisma modifier affects the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has. Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature’s will against an opponent, such as gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, and energy drain effects. Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead have no Constitution score, so any poison attack an undead creature has would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

[King of Nowhere]

So "CON: -" is the equivalent of CON: 10 for the purposes of skills? Thanks!

on the other hand, the book also says that if you have 0 in a stat you authomatically fail all relevant checks. but it's clearly not a given for saving throws and skills.
personally i'd houserule that since a golem cannot be distracted, it automatically succeedes any concentration check

[Goaty14]

personally i'd houserule that since a golem cannot be distracted, it automatically succeedes any concentration check

Personally I wouldn't, due to diamond mind save-replacing and you could get <infinite> AC with the one maneuver that replaces AC with a concentration roll.

[KillianHawkeye]

on the other hand, the book also says that if you have 0 in a stat you authomatically fail all relevant checks.

An ability score value of "-" is not the same as a "0".

[ben-zayb]

For calculating DCs, nonabilites default to Cha instead, which can be handy:
I wonder if it interacts with maneuvers with DC based on STR or skill checks based on STR

[King of Nowhere]

Personally I wouldn't, due to diamond mind save-replacing and you could get <infinite> AC with the one maneuver that replaces AC with a concentration roll.

I don't know what those things are, but I'd also never let that interpretation fly. If there is an homebrewed golem with spellcasting capacity, then its spellcasting would never be disrupted by damage taken. If the golem could drink a potion, then it wouldn't risk dropping it for damage (unless it was some manuever specifically targetting the arm).
other uses of concentration would not be automatical

[Zanos]

An ability score value of "-" is not the same as a "0".
While true, the description for constitution as a nonability specifically says the creature automatically fails all constitution checks.

[Psyren]

While true, the description for constitution as a nonability specifically says the creature automatically fails all constitution checks.

Sure but it's seldom relevant - those creatures tend to be immune to the things you'd need a Con check for, like fatigue or holding your breath for example. So your golem autofails but nothing happens.

[Necroticplague]

Sure but it's seldom relevant - those creatures tend to be immune to the things you'd need a Con check for, like fatigue or holding your breath for example. So your golem autofails but nothing happens.

That's the part that actually confused me when it was brought up. Are there any CON checks that aren't covered by the normal undead/construct immunities? All the ones i can think of are 'going without something these creatures don't need in the first place', like rest, food, water, or sleep.

[Telonius]

There are a few others like holding your breath, and some in Stormwrack where you have to make a check or take nonlethal damage; but both of those are covered by Construct immunities.

[Thurbane]

It's also possible to be a living creature with Con --, oddly enough.

Corrupted Flesh Golem (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a)

[King of Nowhere]

That's the part that actually confused me when it was brought up. Are there any CON checks that aren't covered by the normal undead/construct immunities?

the first coming to mind is disintegrate. then there are a few specific effects like the mace forcing undead a saving throw against destruction

[zergling.exe]

the first coming to mind is disintegrate. then there are a few specific effects like the mace forcing undead a saving throw against destruction

Those are saves though, not checks. An ability check is different from a saving throw.

An ability check would be like Initiative (Dex check) or breaking down a door (Str check).

[Necroticplague]

the first coming to mind is disintegrate. then there are a few specific effects like the mace forcing undead a saving throw against destruction

Those are FORT saves, not CON checks.