Eternal Wand Questions

[magicalmagicman]

Ok this question has been tearing me apart from the inside, so here I go!

First Question: Eternal Wands with Bard spells... Do they have increased caster level?
The book they're from (MiC) does NOT provide different prices for wands containing bard spells, yet they show cure moderate wounds (CL4 for bards) as a viable Eternal Wand spell. Seeing how they don't provide alternate prices, does this mean Eternal Wands containing Bard Spells still have only CL1 3 or 5 instead of CL 1 4 or 7?

Second Question: Use Magic Device DC for Eternal Wands.
Is the UMD DC for Eternal wands 20 (wands), 25 (activate blindly), or something else entirely? On one hand Eternal Wands have craft wand as a prerequisite, on the other hand they also have craft wondrous item as a prerequisite. The activation line in the MiC says (command) so I guess it's 25DC?

[BowStreetRunner]

Okay, so it looks like the hangup here is that the table for creating Eternal Wands is keyed to a progression that doesn't match Bard casting. A 2nd level spell is shown with Caster Level 3, Price of 4,420 gp, item level 9th, Spellcraft DC 16, Cost to Create 2,210 gp, 176 XP, 3 days.

I had trouble parsing the first part of your question until I actually looked at the table and saw what you are describing. I don't know the answer off the top of my head, but will look around a bit more to see if I can come up with anything.

EDIT:

MIC appears to use the standard formula for a wondrous item, so you can extrapolate the entire chart. The formula would be [Spell level * Caster level * 1800 (command word) * 2 / 5 ( 2 charges per day) + 100 (for the crystal rod)] (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthread.php?t=68666).
0.5 * 1 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 460 gp
1 * 1 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 820 gp
2 * 3 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 4420 gp
3 * 5 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 10900 gp.
Spellcraft DC to use detect magic to determine the school of magic from the wand's aura is 15 + 1/2 CL
Cost to create is 1/2 base price, 1/25 base price in XP
Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

So if we adjust for Bard casting levels
0.5 * 1 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 460 gp, Spellcraft DC 15, Costs 320 gp, 18 XP, 1 day to create
1 * 2 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 1540 gp, Spellcraft DC 16, Costs 770 gp, 62 XP, 2 days to create
2 * 4 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 5860 gp, Spellcraft DC 17, Costs 2930 gp, 234 XP, 6 days to create
3 * 7 * 1800 * 0.4 + 100 = 15220 gp, Spellcraft DC 18, Costs 7610 gp, 609 XP, 15 days to create

* Note that if we accept this formula then the MIC has the days to create wrong for a 2nd level wizard spell which should be 4 days.

[RoboEmperor]

Reading Eternal Wands, they are command word items and not actual wands, so all the minimum caster level requirements for crafting wands are thrown out the window. They are not spell trigger or spell completion items, they are command word, which means they are not wands at all!

Therefore you treat Eternal Wands like a normal wondrous items, not wands, and wondrous items do not have any minimum caster level shenanigans.

Therefore if you craft an eternal wand with the help of a bard, regardless of what caster level the bard uses to provide the spell, the resulting eternal wand's caster level is 1, 3, or 5.

Because they are not wands, you also use DC 25 for the use magic device check.

I know it says "craft wand" as a prerequisite feat, but it also has "craft wondrous item", and wands are defined by their spell-trigger activation, so eternal wands are at most half of a wand. In any case though, CL is defined by the item not the class that provided the spell (like normal item creation rules) and DC 25 for the UMD since it is command word activation.

[BowStreetRunner]

Therefore if you craft an eternal wand with the help of a bard, regardless of what caster level the bard uses to provide the spell, the resulting eternal wand's caster level is 1, 3, or 5.
I've read the section on Creating Magic Items (DMG 282-288) and the Eternal Wand (MIC 159-160) and don't see where you got this from. Where else should I be looking? Or did I just miss something?

[RoboEmperor]

I've read the section on Creating Magic Items (DMG 282-288) and the Eternal Wand (MIC 159-160) and don't see where you got this from. Where else should I be looking? Or did I just miss something?

Eternal Wands are Wondrous Items. Wondrous Items don't have minimum CL stuff. If you read the Wondrous Item section in the Creating Magic Items, you will see it never mentions caster level.

If the item itself has a caster level prerequisite, then the creator of the item needs to meet that caster level. The caster level of the spell required is not a factor. In the Eternal Wand's case though, there is not even a minimum caster level to create the item.


Prerequisites: Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous
Item, the spell contained in the
eternal wand.
Cost to Create: See table.

So we need 3 things to create an Eternal Wand
1. Craft Wand feat
2. Craft Wondrous Item feat
3. Spell to be put in.

At no point does the item crafting prerequisites mention caster level, so it is completely irrelevant.

The OP confused Eternal Wands with actual wands, so he thought all of the Crafting Wand rules apply here, but they don't, because Eternal Wands are not wands.

I hope I'm being clear enough.

Try changing the name Eternal Wand to something else, and compare with any other wondrous item. Perhaps that will help.

[BowStreetRunner]

Eternal Wands are Wondrous Items. Wondrous Items don't have minimum CL stuff. If you read the Wondrous Item section in the Creating Magic Items, you will see it never mentions caster level.

If the item itself has a caster level prerequisite, then the creator of the item needs to meet that caster level. The caster level of the spell required is not a factor. In the Eternal Wand's case though, there is not even a minimum caster level to create the item.
The DMG page 282 states "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." This is for all magic items. So basically a 10th level Bard has the choice of creating something requiring a 2nd level spell at any CL between 4 (the minimum to cast the spell) and 10 (her current caster level). The cheapest is going to be CL 4, but there may be advantages to having a higher CL item (save DC, etc) if she wants.

The formula I used is from the Wondrous Items section. Per the rules for Creating Wondrous Items on page 288 refer to Table 7-33 on DMG page 285. I never looked at the Wand section and have never treated this item as anything other than a wondrous item.

[Thurbane]

The DMG page 282 states "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." This is for all magic items. So basically a 10th level Bard has the choice of creating something requiring a 2nd level spell at any CL between 4 (the minimum to cast the spell) and 10 (her current caster level). The cheapest is going to be CL 4, but there may be advantages to having a higher CL item (save DC, etc) if she wants.

The formula I used is from the Wondrous Items section. Per the rules for Creating Wondrous Items on page 288 refer to Table 7-33 on DMG page 285. I never looked at the Wand section and have never treated this item as anything other than a wondrous item.

So that means wands created by Sorcerers are always going to be a minimum of 1 CL higher than an identical wand created by a Wizard?

When it says "minimum level needed to cast the needed spell", does it refer to the particular item creator, or minimum level for any list the spell appears on?

[RoboEmperor]

We're not on the same page here.

Check out the Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Scabbard of Keen Edges

This scabbard is fashioned from cured leather and fine silver. It can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, keen edge; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Scabbard of keen edges lets you cast Keen Edge on any blade 3 times a day at caster level 5.

Lets say a Wizard is crafting the Scabbard of Keen Edges, but the wizard doesn't know the Keen Edge spell. He does however have a sorcerer friend who does. The minimum CL the sorcerer can cast Keen Edge is at CL 6.

If the sorcerer provides the Keen Edge spell, does the item change so that it is more expensive, and cast keen edge at CL 6 instead of 5?

The answer is no. The sorcerer's CL is irrelevant, only the Wizard's CL matters, and the wizard cannot increase the CL of the Scabbard.

Same thing with Eternal Wands. The CL of the bard that provides the spell is irrelevant. Eternal Wand will always be at CL 1, 3, or 5 just like how the Scabbard will always CL 5.

The minimum CL rule you are reading only applies to potions, wands, staves, scrolls, etc. Not wondrous items, or weapons or armor.


So that means wands created by Sorcerers are always going to be a minimum of 1 CL higher than an identical wand created by a Wizard?

When it says "minimum level needed to cast the needed spell", does it refer to the particular item creator, or minimum level for any list the spell appears on?

For scrolls definitely the minimum CL is 1 higher, so I don't see why wands and staves would be any different. But again these rules don't apply to wondrous items, which are completely independent of a spell's CL.

[magicalmagicman]

So level 3 Eternal wands remain 10,900gp no matter what? Awesome! Thanks!

[DEMON]

Because they are not wands, you also use DC 25 for the use magic device check.

I know it says "craft wand" as a prerequisite feat, but it also has "craft wondrous item", and wands are defined by their spell-trigger activation, so eternal wands are at most half of a wand. In any case though, CL is defined by the item not the class that provided the spell (like normal item creation rules) and DC 25 for the UMD since it is command word activation.

Shouldn't that be DC 20 for Emulate Class Feature? If you emulate arcane spellcasting, you can activate this item and you don't need to actually use spellcasting.
Activate Blindly allows you to bypass the activation procedure (speak the proper command word, in this case), but you still lack the requirement (cast arcane spells) to actually activate it at all. That is essentially the same as uttering the proper command word, while lacking arcane spellcasting - useless.

[RoboEmperor]

Shouldn't that be DC 20 for Emulate Class Feature? If you emulate arcane spellcasting, you can activate this item and you don't need to actually use spellcasting.
Activate Blindly allows you to bypass the activation procedure (speak the proper command word, in this case), but you still lack the requirement (cast arcane spells) to actually activate it at all. That is essentially the same as uttering the proper command word, while lacking arcane spellcasting - useless.

Interesting argument. You are probably correct.

If I'm being honest, UMD is not my strong suit since I always play spellcasters. I was not sure Arcane Spellcasting counted as a Class Feature.

So without knowing the command word you would need to pass both UMD checks (20 and 25), but if you know the command word (either by the shopkeep telling you or the identify spell), then I guess you only need to pass the DC 20 check.

[Crake]

We're not on the same page here.

Check out the Scabbard of Keen Edges.


Scabbard of keen edges lets you cast Keen Edge on any blade 3 times a day at caster level 5.

Lets say a Wizard is crafting the Scabbard of Keen Edges, but the wizard doesn't know the Keen Edge spell. He does however have a sorcerer friend who does. The minimum CL the sorcerer can cast Keen Edge is at CL 6.

If the sorcerer provides the Keen Edge spell, does the item change so that it is more expensive, and cast keen edge at CL 6 instead of 5?

The answer is no. The sorcerer's CL is irrelevant, only the Wizard's CL matters, and the wizard cannot increase the CL of the Scabbard.

Same thing with Eternal Wands. The CL of the bard that provides the spell is irrelevant. Eternal Wand will always be at CL 1, 3, or 5 just like how the Scabbard will always CL 5.

The minimum CL rule you are reading only applies to potions, wands, staves, scrolls, etc. Not wondrous items, or weapons or armor.



For scrolls definitely the minimum CL is 1 higher, so I don't see why wands and staves would be any different. But again these rules don't apply to wondrous items, which are completely independent of a spell's CL.

You're confusing the caster level of an item with part of the item's crafting pre-requisites. The convention is this: Aura; Typical Caster Level; Crafting Requirements; Market Value; Weight. The caster level in the case of an item with a non-spell effect does not affect it's price at all, and also has no effect on the item other than determining how hard it is to dispel. You can, for example, make gloves of dexterity at CL3, the CL8 on the typical item is not a requirement, just what the CL of the item is when "found out in the wild".

This was made clear in the DMG errata where the following line


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

was replaced with


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

It was also further clarified in some wizards article somewhere along the line, but I can't be bothered looking it up.

[death390]

ok a couple things

eternal wands are a command word item of a spell 2/day with a 100g component.
1800 *1 *1 * 2/5 = 720 +100 = 820
1800 *2 *3 *2/5= 4320 +100 = 4420

being a command word item ANYONE can use it without a UMD check (which if you read the ebberon description was the point). a spell trigger version would be 1500g *x*x * 2/5. now a true eternal wand would remove the 2/5 multiplier and it could be cast every round for a day if need be but it doesn't because they wanted to make them cheap (you can do this on ones you make yourself though).



as for making them, the caster level of the spell you use determines the cost of the item. IE if you are a sorcerer making a 2nd level eternal wand the minimum caster level you can make it at is YOUR minimum (or the person casting the spell). so a sorc making the eternal wand has a caster level minimum of 4 not 3 as per normal. however this introduces a loophole, if you are able to cast something at a lower caster level then what is the normal caster level minimum.

this makes things like versatile spellcaster 10x more useful, using that feat a sorcerer could cast a 2nd level spell at caster level 1, a 3rd @ CL 4, ect. this is because it is a specific feat that breaks the normal rule. divine crusaders, ur-priest, beholder mage (fast casting classes) who help by casting their spells could technically use 9th level spells with only cl 9 instead of 17/18.

1800 *9 *9= 145,800
1800 *9 *17- 275,400

as you can see that is a reduced cost of nearly HALF! for versatile spellcaster it is 3x less costly to make a 2nd level item at CL 1, 3/5 less costly to make 3rd level, 5/7 less costly to make a 4th and so on. the number difference gets smaller as teh spell level gets higher but damn that is a nice cash saver. especially since we are talking THOUSANDS of gold for even a medium power item.

with the amount you save you could almost buy a KNOWSTONE and cast the damn thing yourself. standard knowstones only work for arcanse spontaneous casters (if i were to DM i could see making a divine set though, honestly give the favored soul some love), but they give those casters a additional spell known to cast from. better yet you only have to have it on your person to use it.

the pricing for each spell level is only 1000 * spell level * spell level (again, ie spell level ^2). so that 9tg level spell would be 81,000g. so a sponteneous fast casting class could buy a knowstone and use it for it to make the item for cheaper. sadly the only spontaneous fast caster i know of is beholder mage (must be a beholder to use x/),and he learns as a wizard so a scroll would be cheaper. ur-priest casts ANY cleric spell @ CL = spell level so there's that at least, but he is prepared. hmm just a LOT of savings here.



ah but i digress, if you are using a scroll or magic item to cast the spell into the magic item you are creating you have to cast the spell for EVERY DAY of work on the item. "the act of working on X expends the spell, ect ect ec", so if you can't cast it yourself it is going to be hella expensive. (also means that hiring a spellcaster costs you that every day for every 1000g AND they have to cast it for you each day) the cheapest way to get access to spells from magic items are wands btw at 15g* spell level * caster level per charge (1500g for unlimited use though)

[RoboEmperor]

obeing a command word item ANYONE can use it without a UMD check (which if you read the ebberon description was the point).

Eternal Wands explicitly say that only people who can cast arcane spells can use it.

As for the rest of your post, custom magic items are homebrew, and the viability versatile spellcaster trick you claim is highly debated. There was even a thread that was shutdown about it a day or two ago.


You're confusing the caster level of an item with part of the item's crafting pre-requisites. The convention is this: Aura; Typical Caster Level; Crafting Requirements; Market Value; Weight. The caster level in the case of an item with a non-spell effect does not affect it's price at all, and also has no effect on the item other than determining how hard it is to dispel. You can, for example, make gloves of dexterity at CL3, the CL8 on the typical item is not a requirement, just what the CL of the item is when "found out in the wild".

This was made clear in the DMG errata where the following line



was replaced with



It was also further clarified in some wizards article somewhere along the line, but I can't be bothered looking it up.

I'll have to look into that. If what you claim is true, then the CL required to craft constructs like golems could be much lower than I thought increasing their viability in a game...

edit: Nope. Constructs have special lines where it says "creator must be at least 17th level" so not even artificers can overcome that requirement.

[magicalmagicman]

Wait, so you guys are saying the price of a CL9 eternal wand of magic missile is the same price as a CL1 eternal wand of magic missile?

[RoboEmperor]

Wait, so you guys are saying the price of a CL9 eternal wand of magic missile is the same price as a CL1 eternal wand of magic missile?

I dunno.

On one hand it's from an errata, on the other hand it would screw up all the magic item pricing rules, on the other other hand the magic item pricing rules are homebrew, on the other other other hand WotC used those magic item pricing rules to price their wondrous items and if CL doesn't affect the final cost then...

w.e @_@

I still standby my original belief. CL1, 3, or 5 no matter the CL of the spell provider or the CL of the creator of the eternal wand.

[DEMON]

Wait, so you guys are saying the price of a CL9 eternal wand of magic missile is the same price as a CL1 eternal wand of magic missile?

No. Either the CL is fixed and so is the price, or the CL can be chosen by the creator, in which case the price will change as well (calculation above).

I tend to agree with someonenoone11 on this.

[death390]

Eternal Wands explicitly say that only people who can cast arcane spells can use it.

As for the rest of your post, custom magic items are homebrew, and the viability versatile spellcaster trick you claim is highly debated. There was even a thread that was shutdown about it a day or two ago.

~snip since not talking to me~


MIC p159 for eternal wands (most recent version i know of)
the activation of the item is "Activation: Standard (command) " this is the base activation of the item. this is not spell trigger

"An eternal wand holds a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower, determined during creation. Any character who can cast arcane spells can activate the wand to use the spell contained in it, regardless of whether the spell appears on his class spell list. An eternal wand functions two times per day.

Lore: During the final years of the last great war, the artificers and wizards of a powerful noble family perfected a new form of wand built around a crystal shard (Knowledge [history] DC 10). The development of the eternal wand allowed lesser arcanists to take the place of war wizards during the final days of the last great war, supplementing their passive spells with more aggressive magic (Knowledge [history] DC 15). While the artificers have been searching for ways to streamline the process of creation, the technique is still in its infancy. Currently, the wands are rarely seen except in military units, but a few soldiers who served in the war brought their eternal wands of magic missile home from the front lines (Knowledge [history] DC 20).

Prerequisites: Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, the spell contained in the eternal wand. Cost to Create: See table. "

nowhere does it say that ONLY people who use arcane spells can use it. it just calls out that arcane spell users can use them regardless of if it is on their list. partly due to cal out the lore behind them, partly because they are called "wands" but are not actually wands, they are command word items as stated in their activation section.


spell trigger and command activation are two different things. spell trigger (and completion) require UMD to finish casting the spell while a command word item casts the spell upon command. the command doesn't have to have any connection to the spell, like having an eternal wand of fireball cast using the word "Frost", does it make sense? no but thats how they work.

MIC p220.
[Action Type] (command): Command activation means that a character speaks a command word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word is the key to the item’s lock, as it were. It can be a real word such as “Vibrant,” “Square,” or “Horse,” but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is a seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You cannot activate a command word item in the area of a silence spell or if you are unable to speak.


[Action Type] (spell trigger): Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell fi nishing is needed, just a knowledge of spellcasting and a single word that must be spoken. This means that if a wizard picks up a spell trigger activation item (such as a wand or a staff) and that item stores a wizard spell, she knows how to use it. Specifi cally, anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item does not provoke attacks of opportunity.




Wait, so you guys are saying the price of a CL9 eternal wand of magic missile is the same price as a CL1 eternal wand of magic missile?

no the cost of a "eternal wand" is based on the command word wonderous item crafting rules of 1800gold * spell level * caster level. a lvl 1 spell would cost 1800g @ CL 1 (unlimited use per day), spell level 2 costs 10800g (unlimited use per day), ect ect normaly.

however using either fast progression class or a reduced level spell (arcane sight for example is lvl 1 for trapsmith class for example) you can get spells at lower spell or caster levels reducing the costs. a divine crusaders 9th level spell has a caster lvl of 9 for example.

or you can use things like versatile spellcaster to cast the spell at a lower caster level than normal. (usually 2 less than normal min. 1)

in any case the cost is always 1800g * spell level * caster level. (if you want charges/day you divide by 5 then multiply by # of charges). Standard Eternal wands are 2 charges per day and have a 100g masterwork component cost.



I dunno.

On one hand it's from an errata, on the other hand it would screw up all the magic item pricing rules, on the other other hand the magic item pricing rules are homebrew, on the other other other hand WotC used those magic item pricing rules to price their wondrous items and if CL doesn't affect the final cost then...

w.e @_@

I still standby my original belief. CL1, 3, or 5 no matter the CL of the spell provider or the CL of the creator of the eternal wand.

go for it, if you DM it is however you want it to be. Rule 0 is there for a reason. however the magic item crafting rules are detailed in the 3.5 DMG p282+ (p285 for the chart i am consulting) thus they are not homebrew. all the sources i used are the published works (MIC & DMG, i don't know what errata you are talking about)

[DEMON]

Specific trumps general.

The Eternal Wand specifically states it can be activated by a character who can cast arcane spells. Arguing it does not tell it can only be activated by a character who can cast arcane spells is, in my eyes a very weak argument. If it did state "only...", would that imply in your eyes you can't even UMD around this?

Yes, it is a command word activated wondrous item, but one that explicitly has an additional requirement for its activation.

[RoboEmperor]

"An eternal wand holds a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower, determined during creation. Any character who can cast arcane spells can activate the wand to use the spell contained in it, regardless of whether the spell appears on his class spell list. An eternal wand functions two times per day.

I think it's pretty unambiguous that only arcane spellcasters can use eternal wands. You must be able to cast arcane spells to use eternal wands. This specific rule trumps any general command word rule.

The errata I was referrng to was the one Crake said that existed.

[death390]

Specific trumps general.

The Eternal Wand specifically states it can be activated by a character who can cast arcane spells. Arguing it does not tell it can only be activated by a character who can cast arcane spells is, in my eyes a very weak argument. If it did state "only...", would that imply in your eyes you can't even UMD around this?

Yes, it is a command word activated wondrous item, but one that explicitly has an additional requirement for its activation.

it does not have a specific statement that ONLY arcane spellcasters can, merely a permissive that they can. specific of the activation line trumps any non explicitly stated exceptions. if the thing said ONLY arcane spellcasters could then i could see your point. you say this is a weak argument, that is your opinion you are entitled to it however you have not given a counterpoint to explain why it is wrong. the phrasing of the quoted section is:

"Any character who can cast arcane spells can activate the wand to use the spell contained in it, regardless of whether the spell appears on his class spell list."

the bolded "CAN" indicated it is a permissive statement NOT a restriction.


lets take a side step here and think laterally. what happens when the eternal wand contains divine spells? cure light wounds for example is on the bard spell list (or use of the alternate source spell feat). in this case the arcane permissive would allow arcane spellcasters to cast the spell even though it would not be on their list, however that doesn't matter due the fact it is in itself a command word item and they could anyway. if it was Activation: spell trigger this would act they way you are stating.

[Thurbane]

lets take a side step here and think laterally. what happens when the eternal wand contains divine spells?

Um...


An eternal wand holds a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower, determined during creation.

Bolding mine.

Or do you mean spells which appear on both arcane and divine lists?

Either way, I have to agree with others that the fact eternal wands can only be used by arcane casters (barring UMD) is pretty unambiguous in the item description.

[death390]

Um...



Bolding mine.

Or do you mean spells which appear on both arcane and divine lists?

Either way, I have to agree with others that the fact eternal wands can only be used by arcane casters (barring UMD) is pretty unambiguous in the item description.

i was talking about things like cure light wounds which is defined as a divine spell but appears on bard list, usage of the feat alternate source spell (in either direction), ect. but i see how what i said could be confusing. part of the issue is what defines a spell as arcane/ divine? any spell can be used by any class as long as they have a way to get it on their lists, the domains are a great example. many of the spells on the divine domain lists are arcane but are treated as divine spells for the clerics. i edited the post.


as i said in an earlier post everyone is entitled to their opinion, me and each group i have played with have used the stance i stated since the wording itself is a permissive. Rule 0 is there for a reason and ultimately it is up to the DM to adjudicate things like this.

[RoboEmperor]

@death390
I'll try to be as clear as possible.

1. Wands are spell trigger items.
2. Which means to use a wand, you must have the spell in the wand in your class spell list.
3. Eternal Wands however, were meant to bypass this ONE RESTRICTION. Instead of restricting use to classes with the spell in their class spell list, they made it more broader, you just need to be an arcane cater. So wizards can use the bard's cure wounds spells.
4. Because of this they can no longer be spell trigger items, so they changed it to command word.
5. Nothing else changed though. This specific rule overrides the general rule about wands. That's it.
6. If you are saying you can't have an item be accessible only to arcane users, and that items are all 100% either restricted to class spell lists or unrestricted by anything (which is what will happen if we go by your ruling) then... I must really disagree with your viewpoint.
7. The item is now half-wand, half-wondrous item.
8. You are correct about command word items in general, that anyone can use them, but this is not a general case. Eternal Wands are a specific case created based on regular wands.
9. If we are splitting hairs and going by ridiculously literally RAW reading of "They don't say I can't, so I can", you are correct, but no one really does that, and the RAI here is very clearly, eternal wands are slightly less restrictive arcane spells only half wand half wondrous items.

I hope this helps.

[death390]

@death390
I'll try to be as clear as possible.

1. Wands are spell trigger items.
2. Which means to use a wand, you must have the spell in the wand in your class spell list.
3. Eternal Wands however, were meant to bypass this ONE RESTRICTION. Instead of restricting use to classes with the spell in their class spell list, they made it more broader, you just need to be an arcane cater. So wizards can use the bard's cure wounds spells.
4. Because of this they can no longer be spell trigger items, so they changed it to command word.
5. Nothing else changed though. This specific rule overrides the general rule about wands. That's it.
6. If you are saying you can't have an item be accessible only to arcane users, and that items are all 100% either restricted to class spell lists or unrestricted by anything (which is what will happen if we go by your ruling) then... I must really disagree with your viewpoint.
7. The item is now half-wand, half-wondrous item.
8. You are correct about command word items in general, that anyone can use them, but this is not a general case. Eternal Wands are a specific case created based on regular wands.
9. If we are splitting hairs and going by ridiculously literally RAW reading of "They don't say I can't, so I can", you are correct, but no one really does that, and the RAI here is very clearly, eternal wands are slightly less restrictive arcane spells only half wand half wondrous items.

I hope this helps.

1.eternal wands are not spell trigger items, they are command items.
2.because they are command items they do not need to be in a spell list to use.

3.i disagree with 3. the sentence we are disputing is that the arcane spellcaster line is a permissive in my (and multiple groups opinions; including my college group which has 2 English majors.) your guys argument is that it is an exception to the standard rule and thus because it is listed that means that no one else can use the eternal wand without UMD. in my case there are 2 parts: first is that the line is PERMISSIVE, it does not say "ONLY arcane spellcasters". second part is that the ACTIVATION LINE of the item is Standard (Command), not "See Text" or "(Spell Trigger)/ (Command)".

4. they CAN be spell trigger items. all it would take is the wording of the permissive statement they used with "Standard (Spell Trigger)" activation line.
5. you are correct specific rule overrides general. the "Standard (Command)" line in activation overrides the specific of how the item normally would work. it does not specify that to others it acts like a standard wand. in order for it to specific in the way you are saying it would have to be "Standard (Spell Trigger)" with the permisive statement because THAT would be a specific override of spell trigger items. it is "Standard (Command)" thus ANYONE can use eternal wands with the command.

6.you can specify a single class while creating magic items it reduces the cost to 70% of the base cost (multiplicativly stacks). i would assume that a "arcane spellcaster" restriction could be possible but there is no line in the items description that explicitly states that other users must use a UMD check to activate the item. merely that arcane users "CAN" use it even if it is not on their spell list. which was probably due to the fact that it is called a wand but is actually a command word item and talking about the lore behind the item.

7.the wand portion of the item is used so that it gets the benefits of wands such as being able to be used in wand chambers. 90% of the items abilities are due to Craft Wonderous Items. it DOES NOT USE SPELL TRIGGER ACTIVATION. it explicitly states in the activation line that it is a command word activation. by the rules of COMMAND word activation ANYONE can use the item so long as they know the word and are holding it.

MIC p220.
[Action Type] (command): Command activation means that a character speaks a command word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word is the key to the item’s lock, as it were. It can be a real word such as “Vibrant,” “Square,” or “Horse,” but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is a seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You cannot activate a command word item in the area of a silence spell or if you are unable to speak.

due to the LACK of statement countermanding the listed COMMAND WORD activation all uses of the item are command word. also because we are having the discussion RAI is in doubt thus it is not as clear cut as you think. here is a bit to think of. ANY restriction of the use of the item causes a reduction of cost. skill restriction 90%, alignment 70%, class 70%. the cost of the item is literally a command word items cost +100g masterwork rod. the item SHOULD BE CHEAPER if it has a RESTRICTION.

8. you use a general case until a specific exemption occurs that deviates. eternal wands are listed as command word item and DO NOT have a listed specific case restricting others from using it as such. it ONLY has a PERMISSIVE statement saying that arcane spellcasters can use it even if the spell is not on their spell list. thus you use command word activation for all others except for arcane spellcasters who get to use it NO MATTER if the spell is on their list or not.

i also disagree that it is wand based. the item is clearly made using both craft wand AND craft wondrous item. wands are spell trigger items with 50 charges.

pulled from the chart on dmg creating magic items. p285.
"Craft Wand — × 50_____× 50 × 5 gp ______375 × level of spell × level of caster _____
750 × level of spell × level of caster"

"Craft Wondrous Item_____—5 × 50 (usually none) _____× 50 (usually none)× 5 gp ______
Special, see Table: Estimating MagicItem Gold Price Values _______Special, see Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values"

as listed it is not possible to make a command word wand. THE ONLY LISTED WAYS to make any command word item are: Rings, Rods, AND CRAFT WONDROUS ITEM. this means that the eternal wand was PRIMARILY created with the craft wondrous item. as a wondrous item it is crafted to be a COMMAND WORD activation with a 100g masterwork rod cost. the craft wand feat allows the eternal wand to be used in wand chambers and other wand slot items.


9.RAW is all we really have to work with until a DM for a specific game adjucates anything. also i belive that my reading IS RAI. we are both entitled to our opinions. the only opinion that matters when it comes to dnd is the DM's technically. if i was playing in a game you DM'd i would abide by your reading even though it contradicts my reading of RAI (which is also RAW). i would simply treat it as a Rule 0 ruling. also because they don't say i can't is neither good or bad. they don't explicitly state that you can do a lot of things, common sense must be applied to those things.

the same must be done with magic items, they give you a listed effect. the listed effect is what happens, in the case of eternal wands the listed effect is the casting of a spell by the item itself upon a command word activation. the given activation is command word, no where in its listing does this say it is different for ANYONE ELSE. thus it is no different for anyone else. because they are called "wands" people assume that they are subject to all laws of wands, however it is ALSO a wondrous item.

wands are explicitly Spell Trigger items, wondrous items can be may types of trigger. the chosen trigger is explicitly command word and thus all users are subject to the command word activation unless explicitly stated otherwise. yet it does NOT state otherwise so it is treated as what it is listed as; a command word activation item.

[DEMON]

Let's agree to disagree. There's clearly no convincing one another.

I believe your argument that "any character who can cast arcane spells can activate the wand" is a permissive statement and does not prevent anyone else from using the item, is utterly nonsensical. Because with this reasoning, you genuinely remove a condition from the overall equation and then turn to the general ruling for command word activated wondrous items.

I would laugh it off at my table, but at your table it clearly works. And as we're not playing together, us disagreeing doesn't matter too much.

[death390]

i agree to disagree, the problem between us is that neither side has an argument that so far can definitivly prove the other right. that with how we are both parsing the eternal wand entry will lead us to pointless back and forth that will just not go anywhere.

thank you for your cordial debate and have a good day :)

[DEMON]

i agree to disagree, the problem between us is that neither side has an argument that so far can definitivly prove the other right. that with how we are both parsing the eternal wand entry will lead us to pointless back and forth that will just not go anywhere.

thank you for your cordial debate and have a good day :)

Indeed. Thank you as well.