Help me stat some shrunk items to use as antimagic grenades

[King of Nowhere]

A nice way to counter an antimagic field is to throw shrunk items into it. They will return to full size explosively, with a lot of potentially nice effects. That are, unfortunately, very difficult to stat adequately, so I would like your opinions.

I was uncertain if I should post this here or on homebrew, but this is less homebrew and more a case of applying rules. Move the topic if needed.

Object 1) shrunk grenade
You take a ball of metal and shrink it to about 1 cm of diameter. around it you put a ball of metal whire (so as not to stop the AMF), say to an inch of radius. The space between the two metal spheres, you fill with shrapnel. When the grenade hits antimagic, the inner shrunk ball explosively returns to normal size, easily ruptures the wire ball, and throws the shrapnel around.

This should be a grenade attack dealing area damage with a REF save for half damage, but I don't have the faintest idea how much damage it may deal.

Object 2) poison grenade
Similar outline of object 1, probably smaller, but instead of generic shrapnel you use small glass vials of poison. The vials are crashed upon "detonation", sending poisoned glass shards flying around. This is especially effective in antimagic, because even high level characters can easily die to black lotus if their saving boosts and immunities are removed.

It's clear that a person hit by shards doesn't get the full dose of poison but only some of the poison contained in the vials. So, how to rule it? you need 4 doses of poison in the grenade to trigger normal poisoning in the target? More? Less? I also think passing the saving throw would lower the DC by 4, because you take less poison.

Another factor here is that since those spheres are small, you can throw more than one at a time. You can throw a whole handful. How would you rule it?

Object 3) tanglefoot swarm
take many shrunk tanglefoot bags. Take a handful and throw, as simple as that.

First problem, how would you rule "throwing a handful". Second, what does even happen if you are hit by 10 tanglefoot bags at the same time?

Third, shrkinking so many bags would be very expensive. But maybe you can cast the spell only once, by putting all those bags into a greater bag and shrink it? what happens if you try that? How about you made a grenade containing several tanglefoot bags, does it count as one object or many? A clock is made of many gears, but nobody would argue you need to shrink each gear individually. what's the distinction between one object made of many components and many objects? On this one I'd say, if they're made to work together they can count as an object, if they are merely in the same bag they don't.

Object 4) hand balista
Take some massive spears. Shrink them to the size of regular arrows. Fire them in your (cross)bow. enjoy your antimagic target being ripped by giant ammunition

Problem is, does conservation of momentum applies when an object is de-shrunk? Because if it isn't, the massive spear will keep flying as fast as a crossbow bolt. But if it is applied, then the projectile will suddenly slow by 4000 times as it suddenly becomes 4000 times more massive.
If we assume this works, then the damage by strict RAW would simply be the crossbow damage increased by 4 size categories. Which doesn't give any justice to the real effect that proiectile would have.

Object 5) Falling rocks, you die
Shrink some stones to pebble-size. Throw them upwards so that they'll fall on the target on a parabolic trajectory. Watch as the target becomes stoned.

Same problem as 2 and 3, ruling what a handful really is. Same problem as 3, deciding if you can shrink so many rocks with a single spell. At least this works regardless of conservation of momentum, since the stones will be falling.

[ExLibrisMortis]

These questions are all "ask your DM". I'll tell you how I would rule it.

1) Something like 3d6-4d6 damage seems appropriate, given that it's a third-level spell that is not designed for damage. It should deal less damage than fireball of the equivalent level. Save DC could simply be as a third-level spell. If you had Spell Focus (Transmutation) and you made one of these, I'd be fine with adding +1 to the DC of the grenade, as well. I'm not sure about spellcasting stat, but then I doubt it'd be very powerful anyway, so why not?

2) I'd say, 1 point of damage, plus any injury poison. Poisons are often very expensive for what they do, so I wouldn't otherwise impose limits (you can't use temporarily created poisons, such as those from psionic minor creation, in these grenades).

3) The use of "object" is nebulous in D&D (other than being anything without a Wisdom score), and the real-world meaning is extremely permissive (the pragmatic definition boils down to "anything that you can talk about"). I'd totally allow ten tanglefoot bags to be shrunk together as one object. Throwing multiple bags should probably just increase the save DC. Maybe +1 to the DC for every bag beyond the first, up to a maximum of +4 for five bags? (That applies to the poison glass grenades, too.)

4) Conservation of momentum is too diffult. It's just +4 size categories of damage. Not unreasonable, considering that it's going to be a nonmagical non-+5 splitting collision bolt. At low levels, it's a big drain on your spell slots (one shot at +4 categories worth of damage, or one casting of haste, hmmm), and at high levels, the loss of weapon enchantments is going to hurt. Plus, launch bolt could already do this as a cantrip.

5) Falling damage is based on weight. Ten rocks weighing a total of 200 pounds are a 200-pound object dealing damage as if they weigh 200 pounds. A handful is anything you can fit your hand around, maybe a pound's worth of rock; since the boulders are 1/4000th mass and volume when shrunk, you can probably drop 4000 pounds worth of rocks (depending on rock density) into an antimagic field, which maxes out falling damage really quickly. Since conservation of momentum is not a thing (nor air resistance), you don't need to worry about minimum falling distance; just use the value for a 4000-pound object. I'll note that this use seems a lot more powerful than the rest; maybe falling damage rules need looking at.


Now if you really want to get crazy, you need some Jowgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone).

[King of Nowhere]

These questions are all "ask your DM". I'll tell you how I would rule it.


Well, I am the DM, and I am going to eventually handwave all of it. but I like some other inputs.



4) Conservation of momentum is too diffult. It's just +4 size categories of damage. Not unreasonable, considering that it's going to be a nonmagical non-+5 splitting collision bolt. At low levels, it's a big drain on your spell slots (one shot at +4 categories worth of damage, or one casting of haste, hmmm), and at high levels, the loss of weapon enchantments is going to hurt. Plus, launch bolt could already do this as a cantrip.

I'd say any magical plus from the bolt and the (cross)bow is retained, since I count those as "auto-aiming" and that the antimagic field only covers the end of the arrow trajectory. At most I'd half the magic bonus on the arrow. And in AMF opponents are losing a lot of AC and several hp from CON-boosting items.
Now, if I extrapolated correctly 1d8 increased by 4 sizes should be 3d8. if we were going with full physics, a large spear moving at 50 mt/s should do much more than that. I could say that conservation of momentum applies partially and the net result is that it deals 3d8, which seem fine. It's not terribly ppowerful anyway, because you'd have to enchant each spear separately.
I'm imagining those to be items that high level casters can keep with them in case someone tries to advance on them under cover of AMF. shrink lasts 1 day/level, so you can keep a few of those by renewing the (extended) spell every month or so. And in that case I think the poison bomb 2 or the falling rock 5 are the most cost-effective damage options anyway, with the tanglefoot being the most cost-effective cc option.



5) Falling damage is based on weight. Ten rocks weighing a total of 200 pounds are a 200-pound object dealing damage as if they weigh 200 pounds. A handful is anything you can fit your hand around, maybe a pound's worth of rock; since the boulders are 1/4000th mass and volume when shrunk, you can probably drop 4000 pounds worth of rocks (depending on rock density) into an antimagic field, which maxes out falling damage really quickly. Since conservation of momentum is not a thing (nor air resistance), you don't need to worry about minimum falling distance; just use the value for a 4000-pound object. I'll note that this use seems a lot more powerful than the rest; maybe falling damage rules need looking at.


I checked the table. In this case I can apply my convenient intepretation on conservation of momentum to say that the stones only pick up real speed after they de-shrink. This means they only fall 10 ft, as it is the radius of the AMF. And 4000 pounds of stuff falling 10 feet deal 20d6 damage. Let's make it 30d6 because the stones were sharpened and worked to deal more damage. But a handful of pebbles isn't going to stay together in flight, so I'd split the 30 damage in a larger area of effect. Say, in an hexagonal grid 12d6 in the central square, 3d6 in each surrounding square, totaling 30d6. And there should be a saving throw for half damage. On the plus side, throwing a handful of pebbles (or a can containing a handful of pebbles, seems easier to handle) seems more like an attack than a standard action, so multiple throws in a round should be possible.


Now if you really want to get crazy, you need some Jowgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone)

No, I don't want to go that crazy. I want those to be neat tricks, neither too powerful nor too weak.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Let's make it 30d6 because the stones were sharpened and worked to deal more damage.
I really wouldn't do that. A 4000-pound spiked club wouldn't deal 30d6 damage, so I wouldn't know why it would deal 30d6 damage just falling. Besides, 20d6 damage is plenty. Also I don't see how 30d6 damage on a single target becomes 3d6 across multiple squares--the two have wildly different uses and balance expectations, and damage doesn't just add up like that (for one, 3d6 across an area doesn't even scratch a stone floor, whereas 20d6 in a spot turns the top two inches or so into rubble). And then throwing multiple in a round? That's making things needlessly complex.


[...] if we were going with full physics, a large spear moving at 50 mt/s should do much more than that.
A crossbow bolt deals 1d8 or 1d10 damage. Four size categories higher, the same bolt deals 6d6 or 6d8 damage. Now, hit points are a bit odd, as animals are typically assigned HP based on how awesome/exotic they are, but that's enough damage to kill a horse (or a formian warrior, or something). Besides, damage doesn't scale linearly with momentum. At mid-levels, you should be able to dodge (or at least survive) a giant spear fired from a crossbow, regardless of its momentum, because that's how heroic fantasy works.

I also wouldn't allow magical bonuses to attack to work in an antimagic field. It really skews the playing field towards the person outside the field, because, as you say, a lot of AC boosters are disabled. Not allowing magic weapon abilities to function is something of a balancing factor. In addition, special abilities like splitting and collision would work just fine by your line of reasoning, which opens up a can of worms (does a splitting bolt separate into two shrink item'd bolts, into two nonmagical bolts, into two nonmagical bolts of shrunk size, or what?), and further skews balance towards the person outside the field. At that point, you can't seriously justify anyone ever casting it, which kind of defeats the point of investing heavily into the verisimilitude of shrink item + antimagic field.

[flappeercraft]

In complete warrior there was a table that gave damage for throwing heavy objects. Maybe that could help. It also gave a bonus to the effective weight, doubled the effective weight or doubled the damage dice, don't remember which, if the objects were sharp instead of blunt IIRC.

[Doctor Awkward]

Object 5) Falling rocks, you die
Shrink some stones to pebble-size. Throw them upwards so that they'll fall on the target on a parabolic trajectory. Watch as the target becomes stoned.

Same problem as 2 and 3, ruling what a handful really is. Same problem as 3, deciding if you can shrink so many rocks with a single spell. At least this works regardless of conservation of momentum, since the stones will be falling.



5) Falling damage is based on weight. Ten rocks weighing a total of 200 pounds are a 200-pound object dealing damage as if they weigh 200 pounds. A handful is anything you can fit your hand around, maybe a pound's worth of rock; since the boulders are 1/4000th mass and volume when shrunk, you can probably drop 4000 pounds worth of rocks (depending on rock density) into an antimagic field, which maxes out falling damage really quickly. Since conservation of momentum is not a thing (nor air resistance), you don't need to worry about minimum falling distance; just use the value for a 4000-pound object. I'll note that this use seems a lot more powerful than the rest; maybe falling damage rules need looking at.

Falling damage is based on both weight and the distance the object falls. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)

An object must fall on someone from a height of at least 10 feet to deal any damage at all. It is then 1d6 of damage for every 200 lbs. of weight, plus an additional 1d6 for every 10 ft. of distance it falls, to a max of 20d6. Objects lighter than 200 lbs. must fall a further distance before they gain their first 1d6 of damage.

There is no save for this, per RAW, but there is a save for cave-ins and collapsing ceilings (Reflex DC 15), so I would expect most competent DM's to rule shrunken boulders the same way.

[Deophaun]

There is no save for this, per RAW, but there is a save for cave-ins and collapsing ceilings (Reflex DC 15), so I would expect most competent DM's to rule shrunken boulders the same way.
Au contraire mon frere

Damage: The damage dealt by a dropped object is based on the weight of the object and the distance the object falls, as noted on page 303 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save.
The "no save... per RAW" part, not the DC 15 Reflex save, of course.

[mormon_soldier]

Polymorph ogres into hamsters and then throw them into melee.

[fallensavior]

Telekinesis + 15 Huge Bastard Swords is 45d8 into an Antimagic Field.

Add Shrink Item for 4 additional size categories...

Telekinesis + 15 Colossal++ Bastard Swords shrunken to Huge is 180d8 into an Antimagic Field. :O

You just need to find a source of weaponry for Colossal++ creatures, or craft them yourself...