XGtE: Disappointed with the Drunken Master

[xroads]

I'm a little bit disappointed with the drunken master from XGtE. Specifically with the drunken technique.

The drunken technique appears to be a watered down version of the mobile feat. The mobile feat is more versatile (disengage with any melee attack) and less expensive (no ki points). And mobile is already a popular feat for most monk builds.

To me, this means that the drunken master's entry level feature is pretty much useless. So the drunken master really doesn't come to his own til sixth.

What are you thoughts?

[DracoKnight]

I'm a little bit disappointed with the drunken master from XGtE. Specifically with the drunken technique.

The drunken technique appears to be a watered down version of the mobile feat. The mobile feat is more versatile (disengage with any melee attack) and less expensive (no ki points). And mobile is already a popular feat for most monk builds.

To me, this means that the drunken master's entry level feature is pretty much useless. So the drunken master really doesn't come to his own til sixth.

What are you thoughts?

Monks themselves are stretched very thin when it comes to ASIs, so this saves you needing to delay your stat progression, or allows you to play something other than a Vhuman. Now you can take a different feat, or max out your stats earlier. Also, most monks Flurry of Blows every round that they can, anyway.

[MxKit]

Personally, I think that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

Drunken Technique basically gives you a version of the Mobile feat that has the 2/3 of the feat that the Monk finds most useful, and 1/3 of those is just flat-out better than the feat gives you; you get it a level earlier than most characters get their first feat, and it doesn't require you to spend a feat on Mobile.

Yes, you have to spend a ki point, but you're likely spending a ki point to use Flurry of Blows as often as possible anyway. You also just flat-out "gain the benefit of the Disengage action," rather than not provoking opportunity attacks against enemies you attack, which means you can move away even from enemies you haven't attacked. You don't get the "Dash and difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement" part of the feat, but imo the straight-up Disengage is good enough that it's still as good if not better than the feat and without the feat "cost."

That last part is especially useful because the Mobile feat is so popular for Monks; since you don't get as many ASI's as a Fighter, need both Dex and Wis, and could benefit from Con and probably Str as well, you can use all your ASI's on stat increases. Or you could grab a different feat that seems fun rather than feeling like you have to take Mobile and can only really afford that one feat.

(As a side note, Tipsy Sway gives you one of the best parts of the Athlete feat as well, so that frees you up even further. A lot of feats are good enough that I absolutely love when subclass features give you chunks of them!)

[MaxWilson]

To me, this means that the drunken master's entry level feature is pretty much useless. So the drunken master really doesn't come to his own til sixth.

What are you thoughts?

It's not entirely redundant. Mobile only nullifies attacks from creatures that you have attacked this turn; if you're surrounded by eight stirges or velociraptors, a regular Mobile monk has to choose between Step of the Wind, Martial Arts, or Flurry of Blows, and Flurry of Blows means he gets 4 attacks but then takes 4 attacks in return this round. A Drunken Master on the other hand could make those four attacks and take no attacks in return. It's a bit of a niche case because really, how often are you really in danger of taking more than 3 or 4 opportunity attacks per round unless you've deliberately placed yourself in that position? Is it really worth spending a class feature just to give yourself 2 extra attacks when that happens?

But we all know that the real reason people play Drunken Masters is because they want to make giants hit each other with their clubs. :-) So yes, 6th level is when they really come into their own. They're still a bit weak IMO, compared to something like a Long Death Monk, but potentially a lot of fun.

[Foxhound438]

As others say, you can save yourself a feat. Whether that buys you defensive duellist, or lucky, or maybe just have better stats, it's worth having.

And that's honestly the same way I look at open hand monk, you have a way to get away built in to the subclass, so you can go for other things on your ASI/race.

[Joe the Rat]

Did we have this thread for Swashbucklers? I don't remember this thread for Swashbucklers. Same story - a chunk of mobile as a feature - only without the spending ki portion.

It almost makes step of the wind redundant, other than that lovely superleap portion.

[Finlam]

I'm a little bit disappointed with the drunken master from XGtE. Specifically with the drunken technique.

The drunken technique appears to be a watered down version of the mobile feat.

You are correct. Drunken Technique was a patch applied to the monk in much the same way as the Hexblade was a patch applied to the warlock. Drunken Technique helps the monk fill the striker role when previous the only ways they had to really fill this role were by taking mobile or spending ki. They generally don't have enough ki to spend on a dodge or disengage every or even most rounds, so it was never really a consistently viable option. So the devs watered down mobile and made it a class feature, which should have been in the core monk all along.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Also, you fight better when you're drunk!

Who doesn't like getting drunk and throwing punches?

[Specter]

If people can't appreciate two ki features by the price of one, all I can say is they're probably not strategizing at all.

[xroads]

Thanks all. You gave me some things to consider.

I've been considering creating a dwarven (or wood elf) drunken master for my next character. But I couldn't wrap my head around what I thought was a waste of third level feature.

Still not sure about it, because I still have concerns about the reliance on ki points. But you guys gave me somethings to consider.

[Ventruenox]

Still not sure about it, because I still have concerns about the reliance on ki points.

Short rest.

As a Drunken Master, you can probably even get the party to take them when you need them by roleplaying your character as passing out for a bit.

[Finlam]

Short rest.

As a Drunken Master, you can probably even get the party to take them when you need them by roleplaying your character as passing out for a bit.

I love this!

Next time I play a druken master: passing out at inappropriate moments, all the way.

[kivzirrum]

Also, you fight better when you're drunk!

Who doesn't like getting drunk and throwing punches?

Is this actually part of it? I have Xanathar's Guide, but I don't remember anything about actually getting drunk.


Short rest.

As a Drunken Master, you can probably even get the party to take them when you need them by roleplaying your character as passing out for a bit.

This. is. delightful. :smallsmile:

[Lombra]

Also, you fight better when you're drunk!

Who doesn't like getting drunk and throwing punches?

That's not how it works, but I'm sure the monk thinks so ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[xroads]

Short rest.

As a Drunken Master, you can probably even get the party to take them when you need them by roleplaying your character as passing out for a bit.

Heh. I like it. But unfortunately I know my party wouldn't stop. So probably wouldn't work.

[Theodoxus]

There's a drunken master (almost typed "DM", but realized EVERY Table has a DM) at our table. I didn't read up on the subclass, as I never really was a fan of the concept. So when he flurried and walked around without a care, I was all :smallfurious:. Then I read the class while he was finishing his turn and I was all :smallbiggrin:.

Still not a fan of the concept, but I will say, having one in the party has been beneficial for everyone else's health. He can get in and out of situations, shore up the rogue's sneak attack and even pass out potions with nigh impunity.

I'll have to mention the 'pass out drunk for a short rest' - I'm playing a celestial warlock as the party healer - I like short rests too!

[Joe the Rat]

Is this actually part of it? I have Xanathar's Guide, but I don't remember anything about actually getting drunk.
Nothing in the abilities keys on beverage consumption. It is very much Drunken Boxing.
All of the tricks reference varying levels of boozitude, and the entire schtick plays off of Performance. It's a style, an act.

Proficiency in brewer's supplies is the only part that even hints at knocking them back. So you get one proficiency and a bunch of feature names that sound like it's about drinking, and everything about it is using misdirection in combat as if you were a half-numb noodle.

So either WotC couldn't make up their minds, or they're giving us a misdirection technique about looking drunk that makes players think it's about getting drunk.

Damn that's meta.

[xroads]

Nothing in the abilities keys on beverage consumption. It is very much Drunken Boxing.
All of the tricks reference varying levels of boozitude, and the entire schtick plays off of Performance. It's a style, an act.

Proficiency in brewer's supplies is the only part that even hints at knocking them back. So you get one proficiency and a bunch of feature names that sound like it's about drinking, and everything about it is using misdirection in combat as if you were a half-numb noodle.

So either WotC couldn't make up their minds, or they're giving us a misdirection technique about looking drunk that makes players think it's about getting drunk.

Damn that's meta.

I figured the brewer's proficiency is just another form of misdirection by a class that specializes in misdirection. Knowing all about alcohol is all part of the show.

Plus if a player wants to play as if his character really is drunk, then it works just as well.

[Specter]

Nothing in the abilities keys on beverage consumption. It is very much Drunken Boxing.
All of the tricks reference varying levels of boozitude, and the entire schtick plays off of Performance. It's a style, an act.

Proficiency in brewer's supplies is the only part that even hints at knocking them back. So you get one proficiency and a bunch of feature names that sound like it's about drinking, and everything about it is using misdirection in combat as if you were a half-numb noodle.

So either WotC couldn't make up their minds, or they're giving us a misdirection technique about looking drunk that makes players think it's about getting drunk.

Damn that's meta.

They did that so that the player could roleplay it in any way they wanted. If they did make the class rely on alcohol, then the Monk would need gold, supplies and time to access his class features. If they didn't mention alcohol at all,it would just be lame.

[Dappershire]

I'll have to mention the 'pass out drunk for a short rest' - I'm playing a celestial warlock as the party healer - I like short rests too!


Everyone needs a drinking partner.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Is this actually part of it? I have Xanathar's Guide, but I don't remember anything about actually getting drunk.

Aside from, you know, the name of the whole archetype? Yeah, that would be the only actual mention of it, but that's the whole point.

Also there have been a number of movies (and other media) featuring this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DrunkenMaster).

[mephnick]

My character died last week so I'm starting a DM Monk this week. Honestly having played with many monks as a player and DM I'd say the monk base class is so nice I might play one with no subclass features. The Drunken Master gets enough neat stuff and fun flavour that it will be more than adequate. I'm playing a Dwarf with the Tough feat and that ability to spend a hit die when dodging. Gonna be beefy drunken goodness.

[ad_hoc]

It's much better than Mobile.

Mobile is not very good overall and for a Monk not worth a full ASI.

The thing is, the Monk wants to attack the high value targets. Tipsy Sway allows the Monk to Disengage through the hordes of the lesser creatures and get at the main one without taking OAs. With Mobile if the Monk wants to do that they need to waste their attacks and so will have fewer to land the critical Stunning Strike that they need (and have fewer attacks at advantage after landing it).

This isn't to say that the Drunken Master is great, but their features are useful.

[Luccan]

Is this actually part of it? I have Xanathar's Guide, but I don't remember anything about actually getting drunk.

You could RP it that way. Either you truly are a skilled fighter when drunk or you use a drunken boxing style, which involves sudden moves as if inebriated. Personally, I'd run a Drunken Master as a drunk who is exceptionally lucky, but also surprisingly skilled when sober.

[Mith]

You could RP it that way. Either you truly are a skilled fighter when drunk or you use a drunken boxing style, which involves sudden moves as if inebriated. Personally, I'd run a Drunken Master as a drunk who is exceptionally lucky, but also surprisingly skilled when sober.

Muscle memory.