Unkillable wizard help

[jjadned]

So in a new campaign my friend is running he wants us all to be mundane classes (Fighters, Barbs) because he said he is just going to kill spell casters and players that are to OP.

As a DM this annoys me because He is saying a whole style of play is (practically) off limits, and if you get to OP you die.

Thats not how you handle OP players, you throw monsters they can't fight or you throw rust monsters and such at them.

So instead of making a mundane class I want to make a wizard that does nothing but be an unkillable little ****. I was thinking a conjurer who just teleports around and summons things to fight for it. Is there any reason something like this wouldn't work?

[nickl_2000]

If the DM says he will kill off all spellcasters, and you play a spellcaster he will kill you off in some way and both you and he will likely end up annoyed at each other.


You are much better off either playing by his rules and trying to enjoy a different style game or just not playing. Not playing in the campaign sounds like the best bet to me as this could be the tip of the iceberg in the things that could be a problem with this DM.

[jjadned]

If the DM says he will kill off all spellcasters, and you play a spellcaster he will kill you off in some way and both you and he will likely end up annoyed at each other.


You are much better off either playing by his rules and trying to enjoy a different style game or just not playing. Not playing in the campaign sounds like the best bet to me as this could be the tip of the iceberg in the things that could be a problem with this DM.

But wheres the fun in that? I get that its not the mature thing to do, but it sounds fun to play.

[nickl_2000]

But wheres the fun in that? I get that its not the mature thing to do, but it sounds fun to play.

Alright, so the mature solution has been offered. So now to the more immature way to go :)

If you are starting at level 1, your DM will likely kill off the caster before you have a chance to get to higher levels.

If you are starting near level 5 then a Circle of the Shepard Druid would be an amazing way to go (I know you said Wizard, but I think this may be your best chance). They boost the powers of your summons to keep the enemies off of you. Then as soon as you complete the summon you can wild shape into something small and use it to hide effectively. This option gets even better once you hit level 8 where you can summon, keep concentration, and the wild shape into something that flies and get the heck out of dodge. Nothing a DM throws at you will be able to keep up with your speed and your flight options.

[Unoriginal]

If you play against the DM, you lose.

It's as simple as that.

In a player vs DM situation, remember that only one of them has unlimited control of the game rules & setting.

Honestly you're better off talking with the guy, and if it doesn't work just to not play.

[jjadned]

If you play against the DM, you lose.

It's as simple as that.

In a player vs DM situation, remember that only one of them has unlimited control of the game rules & setting.

Honestly you're better off talking with the guy, and if it doesn't work just to not play.


I understand that it is going to be hard to survive but the whole point is the try to be unkillable, I don't want to do damage or anything just be unkillable.

He wants to kill me, and I want my death to be like "oh yea your gonna die here, this is made to be where you die."

[Quoz]

I'll say first that this sounds like something best handled off table. There may be some story reason for not having this, maybe he's trying intentionally to run a super low magic game.

With that out of the way, there are 2 ways I would go about making an unlikable caster. Druid (maybe with a splash of barb) to make summons, self heal, and gain ungodly extra HP via wild shape. Or go into a defensive monster of a bladesinger. Dex/Int, super high AC, spell defenses like shield and absorb elements, and mobility/evasion with misty step, blur, mirror image, and invisibility.

Someone posted recently about a ballistic flash-like caster where they stack bladesong, haste, longstrider, mobile feat, and other similar effects to be able to melee attack every turn and still end each turn 90+ feet from the engagement without triggering oportunity attacks. If you are looking to be unkillable and iritate the GM, that is probably the way to go.

[jjadned]

I'll say first that this sounds like something best handled off table. There may be some story reason for not having this, maybe he's trying intentionally to run a super low magic game.

With that out of the way, there are 2 ways I would go about making an unlikable caster. Druid (maybe with a splash of barb) to make summons, self heal, and gain ungodly extra HP via wild shape. Or go into a defensive monster of a bladesinger. Dex/Int, super high AC, spell defenses like shield and absorb elements, and mobility/evasion with misty step, blur, mirror image, and invisibility.

Someone posted recently about a ballistic flash-like caster where they stack bladesong, haste, longstrider, mobile feat, and other similar effects to be able to melee attack every turn and still end each turn 90+ feet from the engagement without triggering oportunity attacks. If you are looking to be unkillable and iritate the GM, that is probably the way to go.

Yea I looked over druid and while I could facetank alot of damage I think just dodging around and not being even target-able would be better and fun.

[dejarnjc]

I'd suggest:

1) A moon druid that just conjures pets to fight and then flees from combat in wildshape.

2) Variant Human (Warcaster), Fighter 2 / Abjurer wizard X for that sweet heavy armor, a shield, the shield spell, absorb elements, and your abjuration ward thingy. Misty step away if the DM has enemies rush/swarm you.

3) A bladesinger that just bladesings and uses superior movement and AC to stay away from combat and just cast from a distance. Misty step away if the DM has enemies rush/swarm you. If you really want to be unhittable, the 2nd level spell blur (disadvantage on all attacks against you) is the way to go w/ this guy.

[jjadned]

I'd suggest:

1) A moon druid that just conjures pets to fight and then flees from combat in wildshape.

2) Variant Human (Warcaster), Fighter 2 / Abjurer wizard X for that sweet heavy armor, a shield, the shield spell, absorb elements, and your abjuration ward thingy. Misty step away if the DM has enemies rush/swarm you.

3) A bladesinger that just bladesings and uses superior movement and AC to stay away from combat and just cast from a distance. Misty step away if the DM has enemies rush/swarm you. If you really want to be unhittable, the 2nd level spell blur (disadvantage on all attacks against you) is the way to go w/ this guy.

Yea I am putting together level 3 characters for each class to see which would be more unkillable.

[the_brazenburn]

My idea:

Start with Barbarian, to put your DM off guard. Then get your hands on a spell gem before taking Zealot Barb and MCing into Cleric. Use the gem to store Revivify, then let the DM go at you as much as you want. When he kills you (and he will kill you), you can have somebody else use the gem to resurrect you, at no cost to anybody.

Your DM will be furious, and rightfully so. As others have suggested, you should talk to the DM beforehand about how he feels. You'll thank yourself in the end (probably).

[Specter]

When you say 'unkillable', you're sure you don't want to be a Zealot Barbarian and beat him at his own game?

[nickl_2000]

My idea:

Start with Barbarian, to put your DM off guard. Then get your hands on a spell gem before taking Zealot Barb and MCing into Cleric. Use the gem to store Revivify, then let the DM go at you as much as you want. When he kills you (and he will kill you), you can have somebody else use the gem to resurrect you, at no cost to anybody.

Your DM will be furious, and rightfully so. As others have suggested, you should talk to the DM beforehand about how he feels. You'll thank yourself in the end (probably).

You could easily do the same thing here with Divine Soul Sorcerer and Celestial Warlock if you don't want to play a cleric

[jjadned]

My idea:

Start with Barbarian, to put your DM off guard. Then get your hands on a spell gem before taking Zealot Barb and MCing into Cleric. Use the gem to store Revivify, then let the DM go at you as much as you want. When he kills you (and he will kill you), you can have somebody else use the gem to resurrect you, at no cost to anybody.

Your DM will be furious, and rightfully so. As others have suggested, you should talk to the DM beforehand about how he feels. You'll thank yourself in the end (probably).

The only problem is the gem could break and getting one will be a problem.

[BurgerBeast]

But wheres the fun in that? I get that its not the mature thing to do, but it sounds fun to play.

There is no fun to be had. This is what happens when people like you think you can playfully ignore what the DM has said.

You think he’s going to amicably “play along” and try to kill you fairly? No, he’s going to kill you in a way that is not fair (in your view), and he’s not going to care. And then you are going to have a hissy fit. That’s he truth of the matter. (That’s assuming he will follow though - but every other possible outcome is actually worse, and will lead to more problems.)

And even if it happened your way (a fair battle), you’d be hogging the spotlight away from the actual game (read: every other player’s source of enjoyment) with your infatuation with an oblique contest.

The DM may have said “I’ll kill any casters.” What he means is “no casters.”

Have some respect for the work he’s putting in. Play by his rules or don’t play.

[Throne12]

If you make it to 5th lv spells and is playing a wizard, sorcerer, warlock look at picking far step. So fiend warlock 1 / adjuration wizard 19. Why one level of warlock well if you kill things you get temp hp. But why I went warlock is to pick up hellish rebuke. DM doesn't get to hit you with out getting hurt himself. So now feats you want lucky and if you can fit it in tough. So with wizard you get that sweet sweet ward. Then can get temp hp by killing things or casting armor of agathy. Before your hp is touch. Then you use spells like absorb elements and shield to lower damage. Then other spells to want blink, counterspell, mirror image, dragon breath, far step. Only spell so far that's Concentration is dragons breath. But it'll all be a big set up.

[the secret fire]

You need to look up The Nameless King!! on these boards. Your DM won't be able to touch TNK because he's the merriest of all the Mary Sues.

Muhaha...or something.

[Willie the Duck]

So in a new campaign my friend is running he wants us all to be mundane classes (Fighters, Barbs) because he said he is just going to kill spell casters and players that are to OP.

As a DM this annoys me because He is saying a whole style of play is (practically) off limits, and if you get to OP you die.

Thats not how you handle OP players, you throw monsters they can't fight or you throw rust monsters and such at them.

So instead of making a mundane class I want to make a wizard that does nothing but be an unkillable little ****. I was thinking a conjurer who just teleports around and summons things to fight for it. Is there any reason something like this wouldn't work?

How new are you and/or the DM to 5e? I ask because I have these observations about 5e:
While there is still a lot of discussion about whether wizards have more game influence than martial classes, particularly at high level, the 3e paradigm that spellcaster=OP is not particularly valid anymore.
The 'unkillable PC' isn't really a thing anymore either, particularly if you are deliberately up against the DM. No one has the 'answer to every solution' anymore, because the game was rebalanced to focus on the cooperative aspect of the game.
Even with a high AC, resilience in whichever of Con or Wis saves you don't have, and maybe Lucky, and being a Diviner, if the DM throws enough saves at you, you will end up in a paralyzed-like situation where your success is determined by your party saving your bacon. That's the nature of the game.
A conjurer who just teleports (by which I'm including Misty Step) around and summons things to solve every problem will run out of spells incredibly quickly (and then, wammo!). This is not a bad tactical build, but not a great 'unkillable' build.


Beyond that, making a campaign 'no spellcasters' or 'no starting spellcasters' as a play aesthetic is perfectly reasonable. As is banning OP play/ saying "I'll say no to OP MC or cheeze builds, so don't bother." Saying 'if you make a spellcaster or get OP, I'll kill your character,' and the response of deliberately trying to make a 'screw that' build is... well, if everyone at the table agrees that that's what they want to do, more power to you, but I don't think it's us being to harsh to call it immature.

[jjadned]

You think he’s going to amicably “play along” and try to kill you fairly? No, he’s going to kill you in a way that is not fair (in your view), and he’s not going to care. And then you are going to have a hissy fit. That’s he truth of the matter. (That’s assuming he will follow though - but every other possible outcome is actually worse, and will lead to more problems.)

I fully expect for him to try to kill me, I am going into this expecting that. The whole point is to make it where he can't kill me without just fully making an encounter made to kill me. Thats what I want.

And even if it happened your way (a fair battle), you’d be hogging the spotlight away from the actual game (read: every other player’s source of enjoyment) with your infatuation with an oblique contest.

I said all I want to do is dodge, I don't want to be doing damage and such. If he wants the monsters to chase me, I'll give them something to chase. There are lots of movies and such where you have the Big Bad Guy chase after a fast target.

The DM may have said “I’ll kill any casters.” What he means is “no casters.”

Then he can say that.

Have some respect for the work he’s putting in. Play by his rules or don’t play.

I just think out ruling almost half the classes in the game is dumb to do. If you don't want casters ban them don't just say, "I am going to kill all casters"


I think you don't really understand why I am doing this.

[jjadned]

How new are you and/or the DM to 5e?
I am not new nor is the DM


I ask because I have these observations about 5e:

While there is still a lot of discussion about whether wizards have more game influence than martial classes, particularly at high level, the 3e paradigm that spellcaster=OP is not particularly valid anymore.

I am only picking up defensive spells.
The 'unkillable PC' isn't really a thing anymore either, particularly if you are deliberately up against the DM. No one has the 'answer to every solution' anymore, because the game was rebalanced to focus on the cooperative aspect of the game.

I just want to try it.
Even with a high AC, resilience in whichever of Con or Wis saves you don't have, and maybe Lucky, and being a Diviner, if the DM throws enough saves at you, you will end up in a paralyzed-like situation where your success is determined by your party saving your bacon. That's the nature of the game.

That is possible but that means he is only targeting me with saves and such. The party should be able to kill the monster if I am the only one being focused.

A conjurer who just teleports (by which I'm including Misty Step) around and summons things to solve every problem will run out of spells incredibly quickly (and then, wammo!). This is not a bad tactical build, but not a great 'unkillable' build.

I am doing a bladesinger and conjurer school gives you a 30ft teleport after every spell so I can just teleport alot.


Beyond that, making a campaign 'no spellcasters' or 'no starting spellcasters' as a play aesthetic is perfectly reasonable. As is banning OP play/ saying "I'll say no to OP MC or cheeze builds, so don't bother." Saying 'if you make a spellcaster or get OP, I'll kill your character,' and the response of deliberately trying to make a 'screw that' build is... well, if everyone at the table agrees that that's what they want to do, more power to you, but I don't think it's us being to harsh to call it immature.

"but I don't think it's us being to harsh to call it immature" I said that its not the mature option its just what I am going with. Any new player out there, Don't act like this

It is not a no magic campaign if it was I wouldn't play a spellcaster he just said he is going to kill spellcasters and OP characters instead of balancing them other ways.

[Erys]

I think you don't really understand why I am doing this.

I feel the "why" is irrelevant to "what" you are doing.

You are trying to create the very thing your DM dislikes (and explicitly requested people not build); likely tearing down any friendship you and he have in the process.

[KorvinStarmast]

Play a paladin. (Redemption might be right up your alley)
Martial, not a spell caster, but you Get Spells!
(And you can make a paladin tough to kill .... )
Eldritch Knight might also be handy.

[Talionis]

There is a middle ground, play a very non-OP caster.

Hexblade Bladelock without Eldritch Blast won't be OP, he won't even be a front liner. He'll use some "magic" abilities be a strafer, but mostly to be able to fight as well as the Mundanes. He might grant some utility out of combat.

Ranger and Paladin are half casters... Are they okay? If not, are the Arcane Trickster and the Eldritch Knight okay?

Unkillable is super hard in 5E, it generally requires DM help. At low levels its impossible. You just don't have the loops to make things near infinite and so many things have been spread out, so being totally SAD isn't really true even when you can get pretty SAD.

I agree with you that in this edition the classes are far more balanced and the division between godly casters and very mortal mundanes isn't that large, so having both in the same game should not throw things off. I think the "Low Magic" campaign is far less meaningful than 3.5E.

Being grown up, DM's should get buy in for their campaign settings. Maybe you know your DM and it will be fun to have a persecuted character. I can also see a campaign where the DM plays fair and allows you to play a Full Caster anyway you want, but just makes all the fluff harder for you. Such that Casters aren't trusted by commoners, maybe casting is seen as the Devil's touch or something. Maybe casting is reserved for only the royal caste.

In other words, I can see this competition between you and your DM on his acceptance of casters being playful and adding to the fun of the group and I can see it resulting in your character being killed by a random non-magical lightning bolt from the heavens, and causing you and your whole playgroup misery.

[Consensus]

I just think out ruling almost half the classes in the game is dumb to do. If you don't want casters ban them don't just say, "I am going to kill all casters"
That's what he is saying, your OP said that he didn't want casters, so listen to him, pretending like he didn't ban them is purely being pedantic. You're gonna show up to the session, and he'll probably say something like: What? I told you, no spell casters, go reroll a new character

[Contrast]

Beyond that, making a campaign 'no spellcasters' or 'no starting spellcasters' as a play aesthetic is perfectly reasonable.

I mean...sort of. I'd have no problem with this as a one shot but for a campaign it would certainly make me cautious about getting involved...

There are 12 classes in the PHB of which 6 are primary casters and two are semi-casters. That leaves monk, rogue, fighter and barbarian. Monks often gets criticised for not being setting 'appropriate' and it wouldn't surprise me the kind of DM who wants no spellcasters isn't going to want the shenanigans monks can get up to. Two archetypes of rogue and fighter are out and potentially only one for barbarian depending on how seriously the DM doesn't want magic elements.

So out of 30ish class/archetype combinations previously available we now have 5. If you have to remove 85% of the class options to make your setting work, I'd begin to question if you weren't better off simply trying a different system :smalltongue:


To OP:

Have you considered by doing this you'll only be re-enforcing your DMs apparent opinion that people who want to play spellcasters are scheming power gamers? If you want to change his mind, either play an OP martial character and prove martial characters are good too or play a spellcaster, let him kill you and then point out that the fact he didn't have to dedicate insane resources into killing you proves you weren't as OP as he thought you were. Or you could try talking to him like a mature adult but apparently that's no fun :smalltongue:

[jjadned]

I feel the "why" is irrelevant to "what" you are doing.

You are trying to create the very thing your DM dislikes (and explicitly requested people not build); likely tearing down any friendship you and he have in the process.

He didn't ask us no spell casters he just said they would have a hard time because he would be killing them.

[jjadned]

That's what he is saying, your OP said that he didn't want casters, so listen to him, pretending like he didn't ban them is purely being pedantic. You're gonna show up to the session, and he'll probably say something like: What? I told you, no spell casters, go reroll a new character

He didn't ban them. He said he would kill them.

Which makes more sense because a monster that isn't just a box of rocks is gonna go after the heavy hitters. Like rangers and spell casters.

[kivzirrum]

You say the point is to make it so that he can't kill you without "without just fully making an encounter made to kill me." Which is all well and good, I suppose (I'd be miffed if someone did something like this in my game, but I'll concede that every table is different), but as the DM couldn't he just pull some "rocks fall, you die" thing? :smallconfused: Then you're both peeved, and nothing (that I can tell) is gained.

[jjadned]

I mean...sort of. I'd have no problem with this as a one shot but for a campaign it would certainly make me cautious about getting involved...

There are 12 classes in the PHB of which 6 are primary casters and two are semi-casters. That leaves monk, rogue, fighter and barbarian. Monks often gets criticised for not being setting 'appropriate' and it wouldn't surprise me the kind of DM who wants no spellcasters isn't going to want the shenanigans monks can get up to. Two archetypes of rogue and fighter are out and potentially only one for barbarian depending on how seriously the DM doesn't want magic elements.

So out of 30ish class/archetype combinations previously available we now have 5. If you have to remove 85% of the class options to make your setting work, I'd begin to question if you weren't better off simply trying a different system :smalltongue:
My point^^^

To OP:

Have you considered by doing this you'll only be re-enforcing your DMs apparent opinion that people who want to play spellcasters are scheming power gamers? If you want to change his mind, either play an OP martial character and prove martial characters are good too or play a spellcaster, let him kill you and then point out that the fact he didn't have to dedicate insane resources into killing you proves you weren't as OP as he thought you were. Or you could try talking to him like a mature adult but apparently that's no fun :smalltongue:

I don't want to be OP, I want to be good at one thing. and that is not dying, Outside that IDK if my character just sits there doing nothing.


I just want him to understand that spell casters are the reason why a good chunk of people play DND. You can't just say no unless thats what your campaign is. If he wants a no magic campaign say that.

[jjadned]

You say the point is to make it so that he can't kill you without "without just fully making an encounter made to kill me." Which is all well and good, I suppose (I'd be miffed if someone did something like this in my game, but I'll concede that every table is different), but as the DM couldn't he just pull some "rocks fall, you die" thing? :smallconfused: Then you're both peeved, and nothing (that I can tell) is gained.

The whole point is if he going to try to kill me he is going to have to do something that wouldn't normally happen.

You don't just have rocks fall and kill a party member with no save or anything.

[UrielAwakened]

I basically made this.

Abjurer Wizard with 2 levels of Warlock. Be a hex blade, wear half-plate and a shield.

Take the invocations Devil's Sight and the one that lets you cast Mage Armor at will to replenish your arcane ward in-between encounters and rests. Cast Armor of Agathys when you run into lots of melee combatants, as high of a level as you can afford to cast.

Keep Darkness up all the time.

Take Misty Step and Mirrored Image.

You'll have as much HP as a Barbarian, as much AC as a Paladin, the ability to get back a third of your hit points between rests, and still have 9th level spellslots in time. Anything that attacks you will miss. If it somehow doesn't miss or can see in magical darkness, it still takes a bunch of damage for hitting you and won't want to attack you again. Eventually only other casters can threaten you and by that point you can counter anything they throw at you and have advantage on the saves anyway.

You can even use Blade Ward at-will to take half damage if you really care not at all about dealing damage.

[kivzirrum]

The whole point is if he going to try to kill me he is going to have to do something that wouldn't normally happen.

You don't just have rocks fall and kill a party member with no save or anything.

Well, if one is the DM, one can do what one wants. Not saying one should! But from where do you get your confidence that your DM won't do something like that? Because nothing is stopping them.

Anyway, it strikes me as seriously odd that someone wouldn't ban spellcasters, but would say that if you make one, he'll kill them. To me, that's just banning with extra steps.

[Jaelommiss]

Every time there is a thread made by a DM about a problem player, the answer is always to talk to the player about the problem. The DM referenced in this thread preemptively took this advice and now we've got a player whining that the DM talked to him before the game.

I really wish that we had the options to label threads "and this is why I don't play with children."

[jjadned]

There is a middle ground, play a very non-OP caster.

Hexblade Bladelock without Eldritch Blast won't be OP, he won't even be a front liner. He'll use some "magic" abilities be a strafer, but mostly to be able to fight as well as the Mundanes. He might grant some utility out of combat.

Yea I have played hexblade warlocks and they are quite fun.

Ranger and Paladin are half casters... Are they okay? If not, are the Arcane Trickster and the Eldritch Knight okay?

It isn't banned but just a higher target.

Unkillable is super hard in 5E, it generally requires DM help. At low levels its impossible. You just don't have the loops to make things near infinite and so many things have been spread out, so being totally SAD isn't really true even when you can get pretty SAD.

I am not looking for truly unkillable just hard to kill/

Being grown up, DM's should get buy in for their campaign settings. Maybe you know your DM and it will be fun to have a persecuted character. I can also see a campaign where the DM plays fair and allows you to play a Full Caster anyway you want, but just makes all the fluff harder for you. Such that Casters aren't trusted by commoners, maybe casting is seen as the Devil's touch or something. Maybe casting is reserved for only the royal caste.

He made it sound like casters exist but he is just going to target them hard in combat.

In other words, I can see this competition between you and your DM on his acceptance of casters being playful and adding to the fun of the group and I can see it resulting in your character being killed by a random non-magical lightning bolt from the heavens, and causing you and your whole playgroup misery.

I don't know if he would do that.

[jjadned]

Every time there is a thread made by a DM about a problem player, the answer is always to talk to the player about the problem. The DM referenced in this thread preemptively took this advice and now we've got a player whining that the DM talked to him before the game.

I really wish that we had the options to label threads "and this is why I don't play with children."

Sign, You think its normal for a DM to say to the PCs, "If you play a spellcaster I am just going to kill you because reasons, they aren't banned and I am not rebalancing them so they aren't as OP."

Thats normal for you?

[Hurske]

Hmm, I think what needs to be understood in this interest, is if the DM is just going to make playing a spell caster hard as hell, as he wants to focus on killing them in a legitimate way.

Or if he really doesn't want a caster in his game, in which point all he has to do is say "you pissed off some random God and a lightning bolt flies down from the heavens, your character dies".

[Tiadoppler]

I just want him to understand that spell casters are the reason why a good chunk of people play DND. You can't just say no unless thats what your campaign is. If he wants a no magic campaign say that.

Then use your words. Write a politely worded email to him asking for clarification.

"When you say that you will kill spellcasters, are you saying that your campaign world is unusually hostile to people who use magic, or are you saying that you'd prefer us not to play spellcasters at all? I'm interested in playing a spellcaster (I enjoy the play style) but don't want to disrupt the party or the campaign."


Unfortunately, not all DMs say what they mean the first time. It's possible to mis-speak or be unclear. Ask for clarification rather than simply showing up with a character that may disrupt your game. 99/100 table problems can be solved outside of the game by polite, honest discussion.



Edit:

Sign, You think its normal for a DM to say to the PCs, "If you play a spellcaster I am just going to kill you because reasons, they aren't banned and I am not rebalancing them so they aren't as OP."

Thats normal for you?

It may be the case. There are some settings in which magic is limited/feared/hated and a custom setting may include that, or a global "wild magic" effect, or simply a "lack of mana" which means that magic must be cast from life force. If you're playing a home, custom campaign, setting-specific houserules may be in effect. Ask the DM!

[jjadned]

Well, if one is the DM, one can do what one wants. Not saying one should! But from where do you get your confidence that your DM won't do something like that? Because nothing is stopping them.

As a DM he has the power to do that its just everyone would know that he just wanted the PC dead.

Anyway, it strikes me as seriously odd that someone wouldn't ban spellcasters, but would say that if you make one, he'll kill them. To me, that's just banning with extra steps.

That is my point in all of this, if you don't want spellcasters BAN THEM. If you are just going to kill all the spell casters why allow them?



This is why I made this thread. Not to be OP or anything just to prove a point.

[KorvinStarmast]

Every time there is a thread made by a DM about a problem player, the answer is always to talk to the player about the problem. The DM referenced in this thread preemptively took this advice and now we've got a player whining that the DM talked to him before the game. I really wish that we had the options to label threads "and this is why I don't play with children." That's a fair take on this conversation, but it might be overly harsh given the objectives that the OP seems to have: trying to show that casters are not actually OP.

@tiadoppler

Unfortunately, not all DMs say what they mean the first time. It's possible to mis-speak or be unclear. Ask for clarification rather than simply showing up with a character that may disrupt your game. 99/100 table problems can be solved outside of the game by polite, honest discussion. But where's the drama in that? :smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

I basically made this.

Abjurer Wizard with 2 levels of Warlock. Be a hex blade, wear half-plate and a shield.

Take the invocations Devil's Sight and the one that lets you cast Mage Armor at will to replenish your arcane ward in-between encounters and rests. Cast Armor of Agathys when you run into lots of melee combatants, as high of a level as you can afford to cast.

Keep Darkness up all the time.

Take Misty Step and Mirrored Image.

You'll have as much HP as a Barbarian, as much AC as a Paladin, the ability to get back a third of your hit points between rests, and still have 9th level spellslots in time. Anything that attacks you will miss. If it somehow doesn't miss or can see in magical darkness, it still takes a bunch of damage for hitting you and won't want to attack you again. Eventually only other casters can threaten you and by that point you can counter anything they throw at you and have advantage on the saves anyway.

You can even use Blade Ward at-will to take half damage if you really care not at all about dealing damage.

I'm playing this character in a high-level campaign. It's truly absurd how hard this is to kill, particularly when you have a simulacrum who has all the same defences and can also replenish his arcane ward on a short rest.

Pick up misty step, shield, absorb elements, and counterspell as well. Take the lucky feat. pick gnome or halfling as your race.

[jjadned]

Hmm, I think what needs to be understood in this interest, is if the DM is just going to make playing a spell caster hard as hell, as he wants to focus on killing them in a legitimate way.


He said he is going to target spellcasters over other classes and make combat very very hard for them.

[KorvinStarmast]

He said he is going to target spellcasters over other classes and make combat very very hard for them. Then suggest to your martial character players to take two handed weapons and great weapons fighting and great weapons master ... since they won't get targeted as often, their lower AC should not make as much difference.

[jjadned]

It may be the case. There are some settings in which magic is limited/feared/hated and a custom setting may include that, or a global "wild magic" effect, or simply a "lack of mana" which means that magic must be cast from life force. If you're playing a home, custom campaign, setting-specific houserules may be in effect. Ask the DM!

As he described it there isn't any story reason. He just is going to target them and try to kill them

[jjadned]

Then suggest to your martial character players to take two handed weapons and great weapons fighting and great weapons master ... since they won't get targeted as often, their lower AC should not make as much difference.

Thats one of the reasons I want to make a bladesinger, Just flying around the room taunting enemies as they try to hit me.

[dejarnjc]

As he described it there isn't any story reason. He just is going to target them and try to kill them

Bit of advice, I'd just ignore the grumps in this thread. They'll keep bitterly responding to you, make unjustified assumptions, and dig in on their opinion pretty much no matter what.

If someone is being a bit silly (like your DM is) sometimes the best recourse is to act silly in kind (like you're doing) to show them just how ridiculous it all is. I heartily approve.

[jjadned]

I basically made this.

Abjurer Wizard with 2 levels of Warlock. Be a hex blade, wear half-plate and a shield.

Take the invocations Devil's Sight and the one that lets you cast Mage Armor at will to replenish your arcane ward in-between encounters and rests. Cast Armor of Agathys when you run into lots of melee combatants, as high of a level as you can afford to cast.

Keep Darkness up all the time.

Take Misty Step and Mirrored Image.

You'll have as much HP as a Barbarian, as much AC as a Paladin, the ability to get back a third of your hit points between rests, and still have 9th level spellslots in time. Anything that attacks you will miss. If it somehow doesn't miss or can see in magical darkness, it still takes a bunch of damage for hitting you and won't want to attack you again. Eventually only other casters can threaten you and by that point you can counter anything they throw at you and have advantage on the saves anyway.

You can even use Blade Ward at-will to take half damage if you really care not at all about dealing damage.

Interesting, I was thinking a dip into another class but then I would be behind the curve and as a wizard that might not be a safe bet.

[jjadned]

If someone is being a bit silly (like your DM is) sometimes the best recourse is to act silly in kind (like you're doing) to show them just how ridiculous it all is. I heartily approve.

Yea, I could take the mature path or I can just be a moving target for any and every monster in the world.

[kivzirrum]

As he described it there isn't any story reason. He just is going to target them and try to kill them

Well, I guess there can be a type of fun had in toying with that, as long as it doesn't put any friendships at risk :smalltongue: Hopefully any conflicts in game remain purely in game and no one gets annoyed.


Bit of advice, I'd just ignore the grumps in this thread. They'll keep bitterly responding to you, make unjustified assumptions, and dig in on their opinion pretty much no matter what.

If someone is being a bit silly (like your DM is) sometimes the best recourse is to act silly in kind (like you're doing) to show them just how ridiculous it all is. I heartily approve.

Oh, I don't know. People are genuinely attempting to give good advice. I don't think they're being grumps--they're just trying to help things go smoothly for the OP and their friends.

[Unoriginal]

I understand that it is going to be hard to survive but the whole point is the try to be unkillable, I don't want to do damage or anything just be unkillable.

He wants to kill me, and I want my death to be like "oh yea your gonna die here, this is made to be where you die."

You don't understand. If a DM wishes a character to die, they die.

[jjadned]

Oh, I don't know. People are genuinely attempting to give good advice. I don't think they're being grumps--they're just trying to help things go smoothly for the OP and their friends.

They aren't being grumps, They are suggesting the mature and reasonable thing to do. and If I was a new player I would say thats good advice.

But as I stated I want to take the immature option and build a ridiculously hard to kill wizard for no reason other than being hard to kill.

[jjadned]

You don't understand. If a DM wishes a character to die, they die.

I do understand, I DM more than I play. I want to make it where the only way I die is if the DM is just trying to kill me at that point.

Like I won't die from a random encounter only from some ungodly event or an encounter that is made to kill me.

[Sigreid]

Deep gnome. Start as a fighter to buy time and heavy armor. Go abjuration for the ward. For your first feat take the racial magic feat for a free recharge of your ward.

[UrielAwakened]

Interesting, I was thinking a dip into another class but then I would be behind the curve and as a wizard that might not be a safe bet.

People heavily overrate getting higher-level spell slots early.

You're 1 slot level behind. It's basically nothing compared to the benefits you get from the 2 warlock levels.

[Easy_Lee]

I have two questions for you: what is your starting level, and do you know any details about how the world is going to kill spellcasters? These are important.

I'll give the DM the benefit of the doubt and assume that the world itself has some sort of bias against spellcasters. Maybe people don't like them. Maybe monsters will target them first. Maybe the gods themselves are out to get casters.

You can be a caster without anyone knowing.

There are few legitimate reasons to use the build I'm about to provide. This may be one of them.

Warlock (Tome Hexblade) 3 / Divine Sorcerer 2
Half-elf
Invocations: Aspect of the Moon
Metamagics: Subtle, Empowered (the only Metamagic that can be used with other Metamagics)

Using Flexible Casting, you can turn spell slots into sorcery points and sorcery points into spell slots. Given warlock, you have two level two spell slots that recharge on a short rest. This means you can create four sorcery points per short rest and convert those spell points into created spell slots.

Created spell slots disappear if you take a long rest. Never take a long rest. According to RAW and Crawford, you can't be compelled to do so either.

The idea is simple. Tell everyone that you're just a wandering warrior. You wield a quarterstaff (arcane focus) and shield and wear medium armor. In combat, you move forward and attack creatures as normal. Only that isn't really all you're doing.

When your party members sleep, pretend to trance while actually taking multiple short rests. Use that time to store up an arbitrary number of spell slots for fueling your spells and Subtle casting.

Use Subtle Casting of Cure Wounds at this time to heal their wounds without their knowledge. If caught touching someone (cure wounds requires a touch), claim its a therapeutic pressure-point technique passed down by healers from your homeland. The party always feels refreshed when you're around, as if the gods themselves are aiding their endeavors.

This setup gives you enough spell points to Subtle cast every spell. Subtle spells give no indication as to who just cast them. If you're careful with your spells, even your party members (in character) won't know you're using magic. Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Feather Fall (used at last second), Shield, Sleep, Blindness/Deafness, Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Knock (secret lockpicking technique), See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fear, Haste, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm, and Slow are just a few of the spells you can conceivably get away with. Call it luck or claim to have no knowledge of the sudden weather or sicknesses springing from nowhere. Say you're quite the acrobat when you need to be.

And that's how you can be a spellcaster in secret. Have fun.

Note: There is an optional rule in Xanathar's regarding rests that can prevent this from working. Don't tell your DM you're going to do this so he won't have reason to implement that optional rule ahead of time.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I'm sorry, but

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/halofanon/images/5/5b/Meme_-_Silly.gif

People who write their posts inside other people's quotes just don't deserve to have them read!

Oh, and the whole antagonizing the DM thing is also a bad idea.

[jjadned]

I have two questions for you: what is your starting level, and do you know any details about how the world is going to kill spellcasters? These are important.

Starting- IDK, He said spellcasters are going to be targeted in combat.

I'll give the DM the benefit of the doubt and assume that the world itself has some sort of bias against spellcasters. Maybe people don't like them. Maybe monsters will target them first. Maybe the gods themselves are out to get casters.

It hasn't said anything about Gods/People against spellcasters

You can be a caster without anyone knowing.

There are few legitimate reasons to use the build I'm about to provide. This may be one of them.

Warlock (Tome Hexblade) 3 / Divine Sorcerer 2
Half-elf
Invocations: Aspect of the Moon
Metamagics: Subtle, Empowered (the only Metamagic that can be used with other Metamagics)

Using Flexible Casting, you can turn spell slots into sorcery points and sorcery points into spell slots. Given warlock, you have two level two spell slots that recharge on a short rest. This means you can create four sorcery points per short rest and convert those spell points into created spell slots.

Created spell slots disappear if you take a long rest. Never take a long rest. According to RAW and Crawford, you can't be compelled to do so either.

The idea is simple. Tell everyone that you're just a wandering warrior. You wield a quarterstaff (arcane focus) and shield and wear medium armor. In combat, you move forward and attack creatures as normal. Only that isn't really all you're doing.

When your party members sleep, pretend to trance while actually taking multiple short rests. Use that time to store up an arbitrary number of spell slots for fueling your spells and Subtle casting.

Use Subtle Casting of Cure Wounds at this time to heal their wounds without their knowledge. If caught touching someone (cure wounds requires a touch), claim its a therapeutic pressure-point technique passed down by healers from your homeland. The party always feels refreshed when you're around, as if the gods themselves are aiding their endeavors.

This setup gives you enough spell points to Subtle cast every spell. Subtle spells give no indication as to who just cast them. If you're careful with your spells, even your party members (in character) won't know you're using magic. Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Feather Fall (used at last second), Shield, Sleep, Blindness/Deafness, Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Knock (secret lockpicking technique), See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fear, Haste, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm, and Slow are just a few of the spells you can conceivably get away with. Call it luck or claim to have no knowledge of the sudden weather or sicknesses springing from nowhere. Say you're quite the acrobat when you need to be.

And that's how you can be a spellcaster in secret. Have fun.

Note: There is an optional rule in Xanathar's regarding rests that can prevent this from working. Don't tell your DM you're going to do this so he won't have reason to implement that optional rule ahead of time.

I thought that warlock&Sorcerer breaking wasn't a thing?

[jjadned]

I'm sorry, but

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/halofanon/images/5/5b/Meme_-_Silly.gif

People who write their posts inside other people's quotes just don't deserve to have them read!

Why? :) atleast I bold them and make the different from the quote's normal text

Oh, and the whole antagonizing the DM thing is also a bad idea.



Probably...

[jjadned]

People heavily overrate getting higher-level spell slots early.

You're 1 slot level behind. It's basically nothing compared to the benefits you get from the 2 warlock levels.

Why Hexblade? For a dip I think Raven Queen & Great Old One have the best dips.

I do like Hexblade but not for a dip.

[Kish]

So what you're saying is that you want a wizard whose defense has no offense?

I'm going to laugh so hard if you come back to report the DM had a sorcerer kill your wizard.

[jjadned]

So what you're saying is that you want a wizard whose defense has no offense?

I'm going to laugh so hard if you come back to report the DM had a sorcerer kill your wizard.

Pretty much, that would be pretty funny.

[Easy_Lee]

I thought that warlock&Sorcerer breaking wasn't a thing?

It's actually bulletproof by RAW. There have been enough threads in enough places by now to confirm that, if your DM plays by the rules and doesn't implement the optional exhaustion rule, it works. And that's exactly why I don't recommend people play this character without good reason. It sounds like you have a good reason.

The build starts working at level 5. You can be a fairly normal melee fighter with 19 AC up until that point if you don't start at 5. There's an extra invocation in there if you want to pick up Devil's Sight or something of that nature.

[strangebloke]

Why Hexblade? For a dip I think Raven Queen & Great Old One have the best dips.

I do like Hexblade but not for a dip.

Medium Armor. It's a huge boost to your ability to survive.

[Contrast]

I do understand, I DM more than I play. I want to make it where the only way I die is if the DM is just trying to kill me at that point.

Like I won't die from a random encounter only from some ungodly event or an encounter that is made to kill me.

That's easy then. Bard with alert and high dex. Expertise in stealth. Stay close to but apart from party at all times. Save all spell slots for misty step and invisibility and never do anything else.

Of course your DM probably won't have to kill you because the party will probably want to strangle you instead :smallwink:

[Pex]

I learned the hard way long ago.

When the DM specifically tells you he hates spellcasters, never play one. You're better off not playing with that DM at all because he's on a power trip hating his players. He can't stand players having any power of their own other than "I attack", but if you're going to play anyway play the warrior and go "I attack". I won't say it's impossible, but it is highly improbable such a DM will see reason and understand it is ok for PCs to do amazing things more than "I attack". Even having a lack of players and never DMing at all would not guarantee they learn. They can remain self-righteous about it and complain everyone "rollplays", but at least if they never get players willing to go along there is a chance. If players submit to the DM's omnipotent self, he's entrenched.

For a silver lining in all of this, there is a fortuitous compromise available. There is a 5E version of Middle Earth roleplaying. The time period setting is between the fall of Smaug and the War of the Ring. There are new classes and adaptations with inherently no spellcasters. If everyone can agree to play that type of campaign then DM vs Player attitude might be lessened. There are ways for the DM to "legally" screw over the players inherent in the game, but it doesn't have to be that way if the DM doesn't really hate his players and only hates spellcasters.

[jjadned]

It's actually bulletproof by RAW. There have been enough threads in enough places by now to confirm that, if your DM plays by the rules and doesn't implement the optional exhaustion rule, it works. And that's exactly why I don't recommend people play this character without good reason. It sounds like you have a good reason.

The build starts working at level 5. You can be a fairly normal melee fighter with 19 AC up until that point if you don't start at 5. There's an extra invocation in there if you want to pick up Devil's Sight or something of that nature.

Ill have to look into it


Medium Armor. It's a huge boost to your ability to survive.

But if I have over a 2 dex it isn't worth it.


That's easy then. Bard with alert and high dex. Expertise in stealth. Stay close to but apart from party at all times. Save all spell slots for misty step and invisibility and never do anything else.

Of course your DM probably won't have to kill you because the party will probably want to strangle you instead :smallwink:

Then a truesight NPC could kill me no Problem

[Specter]

Then a truesight NPC could kill me no Problem

Oh, you mean literally unkillable? Like, failproof to everything? Tou know that's impossible, right?

[Lalliman]

Then a truesight NPC could kill me no Problem
You'll kind of have achieved your goal though, right? He has to pull out one of the bare few creatures with truesight just for you.

Of course, if the DM has any intelligence, he'll just ignore your character and run the game as normal.

[UrielAwakened]

Medium Armor. It's a huge boost to your ability to survive.

And shields.

There's no good reason to have a Dex mod higher than 2 in any of these builds. You need stat points in Con and your primary casting attribute, plus enough to get to a Dex of 14 at least. Also you'll need some in Cha to multiclass.

Con and Int should be your primary attributes if you want a survivable caster.

I'm telling you, nothing on-level can kill this Abjurer build.

[Gorgo]

A dwarf wizard can bring a lot of durability to the table, at the cost of not being able to start with a 16 int if you use the point-buy or standard array systems. +2 con, advantage on saves vs. poison, resistance to poison damage help a lot. Also, you get the choice of proficiency with light and medium armor (and +2 strength to help you lug it) or +1 HP/level.

[bobofwestgate]

So in a new campaign my friend is running he wants us all to be mundane classes (Fighters, Barbs) because he said he is just going to kill spell casters and players that are to OP.

As a DM this annoys me because He is saying a whole style of play is (practically) off limits, and if you get to OP you die.

Thats not how you handle OP players, you throw monsters they can't fight or you throw rust monsters and such at them.

So instead of making a mundane class I want to make a wizard that does nothing but be an unkillable little ****. I was thinking a conjurer who just teleports around and summons things to fight for it. Is there any reason something like this wouldn't work?

My DM is having the opposite problem. He's discovering that Fighter's is OP and disruptive. My battle master Fighter with shield master and sentinal steps on anything he can do. I'm always like when you go to do this, I use my reaction and stop your plans and it drives him crazy. Oh you attacked my ally, I use my reaction to give you disatvantage. or I use my reaction to make an opportunity attack and when I hit I use the taunt maneuver and now you are getting at disatvantage on your attack

[Easy_Lee]

My DM is having the opposite problem. He's discovering that Fighter's is OP and disruptive. My battle master Fighter with shield master and sentinal steps on anything he can do. I'm always like when you go to do this, I use my reaction and stop your plans and it drives him crazy. Oh you attacked my ally, I use my reaction to give you disatvantage. or I use my reaction to make an opportunity attack and when I hit I use the taunt maneuver and now you are getting at disatvantage on your attack

This is a good point. Many cavalier fighters, bear barbarians, and a few rogues have had similar effects.

People expect spellcasters to be OP and many DMs take special measures against them. Few think about what to do when a raging barbarian with an adamantine maul breaks through the wall with a guaranteed crit and starts swinging at every destructible thing in the game world.

[Davrix]

So in a new campaign my friend is running he wants us all to be mundane classes (Fighters, Barbs) because he said he is just going to kill spell casters and players that are to OP.

As a DM this annoys me because He is saying a whole style of play is (practically) off limits, and if you get to OP you die.

Thats not how you handle OP players, you throw monsters they can't fight or you throw rust monsters and such at them.

So instead of making a mundane class I want to make a wizard that does nothing but be an unkillable little ****. I was thinking a conjurer who just teleports around and summons things to fight for it. Is there any reason something like this wouldn't work?


But wheres the fun in that? I get that its not the mature thing to do, but it sounds fun to play.


Long story short, because it lowers you to his level. What he is doing is not right and honestly any DM who thinks a solution to an OP build is to simply ban it is not really using their brain.

Either talk to him about it like an Adult or simply don't play at his table. Simply responding the way you wish to this situation just leads to petty grudges against one another.

[strangebloke]

But if I have over a 2 dex it isn't worth it.

3 Dex plus mage armor is 16 ac. 2 Dex plus medium armor plus a shield is 19. You'll want to Max int and con before you max Dex in any case.

Plus, points above thirteen are pricier than points below. 8/14/16/8/16/8 is a better spread for defensive purposes than 8/16/16/8/16/8. +2 to your wisdom save is better than +1 to Dex.

[Willie the Duck]

Oh you attacked my ally, I use my reaction to give you disatvantage.

Line up how you do that. Do you mean by shoving them? You cannot use a shove as a reaction. Grapple/shove is couched in "using the Attack action" language, and the shield master exception is bonus action-specific.
All this what I think is RAW, no relation to how I think it should work, as by-the-book rules seems pertinent to this thread.

[Contrast]

Then a truesight NPC could kill me no Problem

I mean...you're still a fully levelled spellcaster so unless he's pulling out something with truesight which can OHKO you (which is exactly what you were looking for in terms of him having to go out of his way)...

But why would they? You never take any hostile actions or otherwise interact with anything, just stalk the heroes. Hell they might offer to pay you to spy on those pesky meddlers for them :smalltongue:

And unless they can one shot you, you can always misty step, move and dash away so the party is now between you and them.

You can't be surprised and have high initiative so should be able to put yourself out of harms way if he tries anything sneaky.

In fact as the character is so unnoticeable you could probably just text in what he's doing and not bother attending the actual session. You could even attend another game instead during your new found free time where you can play a character you like rather than one you've made purposefully to mess with the DM. Win win!

Edit -


Line up how you do that. Do you mean by shoving them? You cannot use a shove as a reaction. Grapple/shove is couched in "using the Attack action" language, and the shield master exception is bonus action-specific.
All this what I think is RAW, no relation to how I think it should work, as by-the-book rules seems pertinent to this thread.

Protection fighting style.

[Malifice]

So in a new campaign my friend is running he wants us all to be mundane classes (Fighters, Barbs) because he said he is just going to kill spell casters and players that are to OP.

As a DM this annoys me because He is saying a whole style of play is (practically) off limits, and if you get to OP you die.

Thats not how you handle OP players, you throw monsters they can't fight or you throw rust monsters and such at them.

So instead of making a mundane class I want to make a wizard that does nothing but be an unkillable little ****. I was thinking a conjurer who just teleports around and summons things to fight for it. Is there any reason something like this wouldn't work?

Why would you do this? The DM doesnt want casters in his campaign.

Why be antagonistic. The game is supposed to be fun and collaborative.

[Sigreid]

Long story short, because it lowers you to his level. What he is doing is not right and honestly any DM who thinks a solution to an OP build is to simply ban it is not really using their brain.

Either talk to him about it like an Adult or simply don't play at his table. Simply responding the way you wish to this situation just leads to petty grudges against one another.

Eh, if it's done openly it could be a good time for both seeing how long he survives. Almost like playing Paranoia. Everyone knows the OP is going to die. Probably in a ridiculous or silly fashion. Seeing how long you can keep the train on the rails before watching the wreck.

[Talionis]

I basically made this.

Abjurer Wizard with 2 levels of Warlock. Be a hex blade, wear half-plate and a shield.

Take the invocations Devil's Sight and the one that lets you cast Mage Armor at will to replenish your arcane ward in-between encounters and rests. Cast Armor of Agathys when you run into lots of melee combatants, as high of a level as you can afford to cast.

Keep Darkness up all the time.

Take Misty Step and Mirrored Image.

You'll have as much HP as a Barbarian, as much AC as a Paladin, the ability to get back a third of your hit points between rests, and still have 9th level spellslots in time. Anything that attacks you will miss. If it somehow doesn't miss or can see in magical darkness, it still takes a bunch of damage for hitting you and won't want to attack you again. Eventually only other casters can threaten you and by that point you can counter anything they throw at you and have advantage on the saves anyway.

You can even use Blade Ward at-will to take half damage if you really care not at all about dealing damage.

This is actually a pretty fun way to play. Tons of utility because you are mostly a Wizard.

This gets Armor of Agathys (it only gets good when cast out of your higher Wizard slots 3+), which casting it charges your Abjuration Ward. Abjuration Wizards are hard to kill on their own. The low level recharging slots, both Warlock and Wizard can cast Shield spell, which can increase your AC and recharge your Abjuration Ward. Ritual Casting Abjuration spells also recharges your Ward during down time or between fights (not even necessarily short rests).

The two invocations at level 2 of Warlock can have a lot of great choices to increase your survivability. Devil's Sight with Darkness is a good safe combo, it also prevents someone having advantage to attack you.

Hexblade grants a shield and medium armor. You can attack with your Charisma stat instead of Strength or Dex which might be useful. High Dexterity is really nice if you are casting a lot of Mirrored Image.

[Sigreid]

This is actually a pretty fun way to play. Tons of utility because you are mostly a Wizard.

This gets Armor of Agathys (it only gets good when cast out of your higher Wizard slots 3+), which casting it charges your Abjuration Ward. Abjuration Wizards are hard to kill on their own. The low level recharging slots, both Warlock and Wizard can cast Shield spell, which can increase your AC and recharge your Abjuration Ward. Ritual Casting Abjuration spells also recharges your Ward during down time or between fights (not even necessarily short rests).

The two invocations at level 2 of Warlock can have a lot of great choices to increase your survivability. Devil's Sight with Darkness is a good safe combo, it also prevents someone having advantage to attack you.

Hexblade grants a shield and medium armor. You can attack with your Charisma stat instead of Strength or Dex which might be useful. High Dexterity is really nice if you are casting a lot of Mirrored Image.

The mage armor invocation would mean your ward is always filled between fights.

[Specter]

My DM is having the opposite problem. He's discovering that Fighter's is OP and disruptive. My battle master Fighter with shield master and sentinal steps on anything he can do. I'm always like when you go to do this, I use my reaction and stop your plans and it drives him crazy. Oh you attacked my ally, I use my reaction to give you disatvantage. or I use my reaction to make an opportunity attack and when I hit I use the taunt maneuver and now you are getting at disatvantage on your attack

Sounds like your DM is running only low-AC low-damage melee foes.

Not that that is a problem in itself, but don't believe your character is the end-all of D&D.

[BurgerBeast]

I think you don't really understand why I am doing this.

I don't think you understand why you're doing it.

If you're doing this to be a jerk, then you are being consistent. But you seem to want to do this and simultaneously claim that you're not being a jerk.

If you're doing this for some other reason, then your behaviour is accomplishing something different than you think it is, and you're not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, so to speak.

In response to your comments:


I fully expect for him to try to kill me, I am going into this expecting that. The whole point is to make it where he can't kill me without just fully making an encounter made to kill me. Thats what I want.

If he's trying to kill you, then he's not doing what he was otherwise going to do, which is spend his energy running the campaign as usual. So you're intentionally distracting him from his intended purpose. That's a jerk thing to do.

If the whole point is to "to make it where he can't kill [you] without just fully making an encounter made to kill [you]" then you're trying to force him to do something that he doesn't want to do. The fact that "thats what [you] want" only confirms that you care more about what you want than what the DM or the other players want. That's a jerk way to be.


I said all I want to do is dodge, I don't want to be doing damage and such. If he wants the monsters to chase me, I'll give them something to chase. There are lots of movies and such where you have the Big Bad Guy chase after a fast target.

Yes, so you want to play a side-game while the DM is trying to play his campaign with the other players, and you are going to go out of your way to force him to play your side-game.

You're a f**king prize, pal, and apparently proud of it. I'm surprised you have friends.


Then he can say that.

Sure. But that's a far cry from: "if he doesn't, I'm going to try to ruin the fun of the DM and all the other players because I want to." Jerk move.


I just think out ruling almost half the classes in the game is dumb to do. If you don't want casters ban them don't just say, "I am going to kill all casters"

Who cares what you think is dumb? If you don't want your so-called friend to say dumb things, then tell him to not say dumb things. Don't stage a conflict and ruin other people's fun because you think he said something that was dumb.

Have some decency.

[jjadned]

I don't think you understand why you're doing it.

If you're doing this to be a jerk, then you are being consistent. But you seem to want to do this and simultaneously claim that you're not being a jerk.

Never claimed I wasn't a jerk :)

If you're doing this for some other reason, then your behaviour is accomplishing something different than you think it is, and you're not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, so to speak.

I said I am going into this expecting to die and such because of the way I was playing

In response to your comments:



If he's trying to kill you, then he's not doing what he was otherwise going to do, which is spend his energy running the campaign as usual. So you're intentionally distracting him from his intended purpose. That's a jerk thing to do.

I said I wanted to be just a very hard thing to kill, distracting him would be playing a super OP bard and just screwing wtih people.

If the whole point is to "to make it where he can't kill [you] without just fully making an encounter made to kill [you]" then you're trying to force him to do something that he doesn't want to do. The fact that "thats what [you] want" only confirms that you care more about what you want than what the DM or the other players want. That's a jerk way to be.

He said he wanted to kill spellcasters, I thought I'd give him a challenge (Its not a challenge to kill the wizard just a challenge to do it in a way that wasn't obvious)



Yes, so you want to play a side-game while the DM is trying to play his campaign with the other players, and you are going to go out of your way to force him to play your side-game.

Not forcing him into anything, I want to be a PC that does nothing other than be hard to kill
He has no reason to kill me other than he wants to, I won't be attacking monsters nearly as hard as my part and my spells will be defense picks like sheild and Misty Step

You're a f**king prize, pal, and apparently proud of it. I'm surprised you have friends.
What a rude thing to say. This isn't going to be a good PC, its going to be fun. Hes not going to do anything outside running around the battle field takeing a few pot shots at enemies


Sure. But that's a far cry from: "if he doesn't, I'm going to try to ruin the fun of the DM and all the other players because I want to." Jerk move.

How am I ruining the fun of the other PCs?



Who cares what you think is dumb? If you don't want your so-called friend to say dumb things, then tell him to not say dumb things. Don't stage a conflict and ruin other people's fun because you think he said something that was dumb.
How am I ruining the fun of the other PCs?


Have some decency.
You could use some help in that department sir...


I was talking to my GM and he is fine with me being a Coffeelock, because I won't be able to use high level spells. But I have to survive until level 5.

I am sure this would have been fine. That being said, to the quote!

[Eloel]

Never claimed I wasn't a jerk :)


Ding ding ding! Here we have our reason.

[jjadned]

Ding ding ding! Here we have our reason.

That being said what I was playing on doing isn’t a jerk thing to do. Definitely considering a coffeelock is fine with the DM



Just be the Nameless King, 10% of his power is enough.:smallbiggrin:

Would it be better to grab 11 warlock/ 9 sorcerer?

Cause that gives you level 5 spells and lots of warlock stuff because you won’t be taking long rest to regain 6-9 spells

[MxKit]

Edited out stuff.

Hey, you actually did follow the advice to talk to the DM and found a good compromise, if he isn't going to be frustrated by the coffeelock or still go out of his way to kill you. That'll probably be better for everyone involved than what you were planning before.

[Asmotherion]

Do the smart thing kid. Don't antagonize the DM. Don't go down that road. Both of you will end up becoming the fools in the end.

His world, his rules. He probably does not want casters, because he can't handle them due to unexperiance as a DM. Personally, I would never play in such a boring world; Nothing personal, I just find it extreamly boring to play an RPG and not be allowed to be a spellcaster.

If I were you, I'd ditch the group, unless it was my friends, in witch case, I'd propose to DM in the other guy's place.

[jjadned]

Edited out stuff.

Hey, you actually did follow the advice to talk to the DM and found a good compromise, if he isn't going to be frustrated by the coffeelock or still go out of his way to kill you. That'll probably be better for everyone involved than what you were planning before.

We were making characters today and I said 3 into warlock and then all into sorcerer and explained why and he is fine with it.

Its not like I reasoned with him, I hust didn’t bring up the bladesinger because the coffeelock sounded more enjoyable.

Again I said the immature option, :)


Do the smart thing kid. Don't antagonize the DM. Don't go down that road. Both of you will end up becoming the fools in the end.

His world, his rules. He probably does not want casters, because he can't handle them due to unexperiance as a DM. Personally, I would never play in such a boring world; Nothing personal, I just find it extreamly boring to play an RPG and not be allowed to be a spellcaster.

If I were you, I'd ditch the group, unless it was my friends, in witch case, I'd propose to DM in the other guy's place.

Its my friend DMing and it would be mostly his friends and maybe a few of mine,

As of right now I am DMing at the same time but we are splitting it into a bi-weekly thing so we can both DM.

He never said no casters, hes fine with them he is just going to target them.

[Coffee_Dragon]

He greenlighted coffeelock? Then he's crazy and you should run from him for that reason.

[ImproperJustice]

For what it’s worth, I am currently in a game with two fighters, a Paladin, and a Rogue and the GM cries agony over how fast we demolish foes in close combat.

Martials can wreck face in 5th.
I’m guessing the GM ia one of those types that gets mad when a player solves his complex chasm puzzle by flying over the gap.....

[CantigThimble]

He greenlighted coffeelock? Then he's crazy and you should run from him for that reason.

You don't need to worry about a character having 15 spell slots if you kill them before they can cast 5. :smallbiggrin:

[polymphus]

So uh, I'm gonna be the bad guy here.

The unkillability of wizards is probably exactly why your DM has said he's gonna kill them. With that in mind, he's not gonna be using rules-based kills: he's going to say "a rock falls on your wizard and kills them instantly. Also, all his clones suddenly and mysterious melted. Also also, his magical jar got smashed by a clumsy intern in the magical lab. The rock fell too fast for him to misty step away, and it hit all the mirror image duplicates at the same time. RIP."

If you add another step to your survival, he's going to add another step to the kill chain.

But really, and this is the key thing, if your DM has laid out rules and you go out of your way to break them, you're a bad player and need to a stop.

[jjadned]

So uh, I'm gonna be the bad guy here.

The unkillability of wizards is probably exactly why your DM has said he's gonna kill them. With that in mind, he's not gonna be using rules-based kills: he's going to say "a rock falls on your wizard and kills them instantly. Also, all his clones suddenly and mysterious melted. Also also, his magical jar got smashed by a clumsy intern in the magical lab. The rock fell too fast for him to misty step away, and it hit all the mirror image duplicates at the same time. RIP."

If you add another step to your survival, he's going to add another step to the kill chain.

But really, and this is the key thing, if your DM has laid out rules and you go out of your way to break them, you're a bad player and need to a stop.

I feel like a broken record, this has all be stated.

[Pex]

So the DM hates spellcasters because he thinks only munchkins play spellcasters, and your solution is to play a spellcaster like a munchkin.

Sure, that'll teach him to rethink his misguided view.

[polymphus]

I feel like a broken record, this has all be stated.
Well then let the repetition get it through to you how phenomenally bad an idea it is.

[strangebloke]

Well then let the repetition get it through to you how phenomenally bad an idea it is.

Maybe give the guy enough credit to take him at his word? It's his friend, his table, his DM. He's actually talked to the guy. He knows what his DM has said. He's fine with dying, so long as he goes out in a hilariously mean fashion.

Why ya'll so confident? Answer the man's question! He came here to read OP wizard builds, not get social advice! This is GiantitP and if a day comes where a man can't show up to these boards, ask for an OP wizard build, and receive an OP wizard build, I am sure that we have come to the end times.

Well, actually, don't answer his question, since we've already covered that, more or less. Abjurer Wizard is best, although bladesinger and stealth/illusion specialists have their place as well.

[Easy_Lee]

If you tell someone not to do something, many people will want to do it. This is a natural human phenomenon. JJ isn't a bad person for wanting to be contrary and his DM isn't a bad person for wanting to ban magic users. The DM may even have a good reason - we don't know because we aren't privy to the campaign details.

There's too much lecturing in this thread. Even I'm getting in on it. Sheesh.

[jjadned]

Well then let the repetition get it through to you how phenomenally bad an idea it is.


So the DM hates spellcasters because he thinks only munchkins play spellcasters, and your solution is to play a spellcaster like a munchkin.

Sure, that'll teach him to rethink his misguided view.

Hes fine with a coffeelock I think he would have been fine with a bladesinger, even if the reason was to be unkillable.

[Talionis]

The mage armor invocation would mean your ward is always filled between fights.

Invocations are at a premium. You get only two. You can cast rituals for free. The ritual takes longer, but it's a virtually free resource. Invocation certainly is an option but not necessarily a requirement.

[Talionis]

The more I've read this thread. I this the op sees the campaign and DM ultimatum as a challenge, not a rule. I thhink the OP and the DM will have fun taxing this Wizard.

The DM didn't put down a rule, but a gauntlet.

[Asmotherion]

We were making characters today and I said 3 into warlock and then all into sorcerer and explained why and he is fine with it.

Its not like I reasoned with him, I hust didn’t bring up the bladesinger because the coffeelock sounded more enjoyable.

Again I said the immature option, :)



Its my friend DMing and it would be mostly his friends and maybe a few of mine,

As of right now I am DMing at the same time but we are splitting it into a bi-weekly thing so we can both DM.

He never said no casters, hes fine with them he is just going to target them.

I am unsure which approach he used:

"Play a caster if you dare, and I'm going to kill them anyway because I don't like casters" (the stupid bratty move from a 14 yo antagonising DM. Don't engage, and stay away from that game.)

"I ban casters as a player option, either because magic does not exist in my game, or because it is restricted to monsters and antagonists in my kind of setting and campain, and I won't compromise. If you insist on making a caster, I will treat him as an antagonist PC-NPC, and make a plot point of killing you (The most logical DM approach; He might be going for a Sword and Sorcery kind of Game, and a caster not be what he wishes in his game at all, but he needs to inform beforehand. At the same time, you are free to look at the kind of game, and see if it fits your needs or decide that you are not interested in participating in such a setting. As a group, we sometimes make "secret villains", who are players playing an NPC, and in assosiation with the DM. You could be an Evil Wizard who appears to help the party but betrays them latter for example.)

"Don't think I am going to ignore you and not engage with you in melee, or damage you, just because you're a caster, because that's not the kind of game I'm playing; Everyone has equal possibility to be damaged, requardless if you are a bulky barbarian or a frail caster, so be aware of that and don't expect any kind of plot armor on my part just because of your low HP and AC." (In this case, the DM is just giving a fair warning, and there is nothing wrong with it, or with running his game that way. Just be aware of it, and of the fact he expects some level of optimisation. Abjurer Wizard should be a good straight forward answear if that's the case, or a Gish Build Like Hexblade/Sorcerer, Hexblade/Paladin etc.)

Try to figure out which of the above concepts in which he meant that he would kill your caster. Then, decide if it's worth the time to A) Participate in the Campain, B) Play a Caster, C) Discuss about his behaviour or a compromise (perhapse you could take the Magic Initiate Feat for Prestidigitation and Firebolt, and feel like kind of a Caster, wile at the same time abide by his rules of being a non-caster class?)

[Pex]

When fighting orcs the orc archers fire upon the unarmored PC who wiggles his fingers standing in the back, ok.

When fighting skeletons and they move past the armored PCs in front to attack the unarmored PC who wiggles his fingers standing in the back, I call DM shenanigans.

When the party is ambushed by bandits and a number of them spring upon the unarmored PC who wiggles his fingers standing in the back from behind and the side because that PC just happens to be there, ok.

When the party is ambushed, every time the party is ambushed, regardless of who is doing the ambushing, and regardless of where the unarmored PC who wiggles his fingers is standing, always manage to be in the right place for a straight line movement to attack the unarmored PC who wiggles his fingers, I call DM shenanigans.

[UrielAwakened]

Invocations are at a premium. You get only two. You can cast rituals for free. The ritual takes longer, but it's a virtually free resource. Invocation certainly is an option but not necessarily a requirement.

Having played this build in real life, you will not have opportunities to spam the Alarm ritual.

You will always be able to cast Mage Armor about ten times.

[the secret fire]

Maybe give the guy enough credit to take him at his word? It's his friend, his table, his DM. He's actually talked to the guy. He knows what his DM has said. He's fine with dying, so long as he goes out in a hilariously mean fashion.

Why ya'll so confident? Answer the man's question! He came here to read OP wizard builds, not get social advice! This is GiantitP and if a day comes where a man can't show up to these boards, ask for an OP wizard build, and receive an OP wizard build, I am sure that we have come to the end times.

I agree. This sounds like some lighthearted foolishness between friends. What sort of DM is out to get wizards, but is fine with coffeelocks? One who gives no ****s and is comfortable in his arbitrariness. Taking the piss out of such a DM with a tick-like wizard is certainly one viable, and possibly hilarious, form of interaction. I've got a buddy that I might do this to if he ever gave me such a directive from the DM's chair.

[Garresh]

Oh boy. Do I have a build for you. Let me introduce you to the "Stop Hitting Yourself Wizard".

Before I start let me say this build is untested. However, it is on paper incredibly strong. You'll need to multiclass a bit to get it going. Also note you can cut out fighter by going Hexblade warlock at level 1 for better casting, but from a pure survivability standpoint it's much better to open with fighter. Alright with all the fun bits out of the way, let's get rolling.

Pick Human Variant. Start with these stats.

Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 13

Start with fighter. Take defensive fighting style, sword and shield. Start game with chainmail. Take Heavy Armor Master(that's how you get those stats). Starting AC 19. Starting HP 11. All physical damage reduced by 3.

Next level take Warlock level 1. Patron doesn't really matter unless you take 2 off wis for +1 cha. Then pick based off spells, but wis will increase saves a bit so your call. Learn Armor of Agathys. Cast it at every chance, ignoring any other uses of spells at all. You're still basically playing as a fighter. AC 19. HP 17+5(22). All physical damage reduced by 3.

Now multiclass Wizard. Take 2 levels and become an Abjuration specialist. Make absolutely certain you learn Shield, Absorb Elements, and Protection From Evil/Good. I recommend other choices as well such as Warding Wind and whatever abjuration spells you can learn as you level. Now you have an Arcane Wars providing 2x wix level + int hp. This STACKS with temporary hitpoints such as Armor of Agathys. And since the ward takes damage firdt and armor of Agathys is based upon being hit in melee, your armor is significantly stronger than it would be un-buffed. AC 19. HP 27+5+7(39). All physical damage reduced by 3. Can boost AC by 5, grant resistance to elemental damage, and ward self against evil creatures of various sorts. Whenever you cast any of these spells your ward recovers hp. Weak enemies who attack you in melee will kill themselves before they reach your actual hit points.

Let's fast forward a bit. We'll go to level 7 as a good middle ground. You are now a 5th level wizard due to being delayed a bit. You should have full plate at this point Your next feat should be Tough for significantly boosted HP. You up cast Armor of Agathys at the start of each day to keep yourself properly warded. Then you play as a somewhat weakened controller wizard using the rest of your spell slots. You generally reserve your 1st level spells for reactions such as Shield and Absorb Elements. Your second and third level spells for a mixture of control and armor depending on the enemy composition. If you get all the hate you control by drawing fire and shielding. If ignored you cast control spells without needing to worry about concentration saves due to being invulnerable. You don't generally melee anymore at thid point. You can with booming blade and absorb elements, but you're no gish. You are an invulnerable god wizard. A silent protector. A watchful guardian. A dark troll.

Level 7 stats:
HP: 56+15+13(84). AC: 21+5(26). Physical damage reduced by 3. Magical elemental damage reduced by half. Counterspells any magic which would pose a threat to you. Enemies who strike you in melee take 15 damage. Can spend an action to recover 15+3 hp, or 10+2 HP. For all intents and purposes you are signing more durable than a raging barbarian, without having to be on the front line. You have answers to most threats physical or magical, and the threats you cannot answer can be endured for significant lengths of time.

From here on out you take 18 levels in wizard, making you a full caster all the way. You have access to 9th level spells, and should use your remaining ASIs to boost Int to 20, as well as picking up Warcaster for concentration checks. Your HP at level 20 is 147+25+45(217). Your AC should be pushing around 25+ with boosts to 30 on demand dur to spell mastery. You can cast mirror image at will as well, though many enemies can see through it. You still take a few points of damage off physical damage but it's only a few points here and there now. Still, on average your physical damage is reduced by like 5% which is still something. You have significant boosts to counterspelling which blocks most casters. You have resistance on saves vs spells, and take half damage from spells. You also have resistance effectively to elemental damage. And you should still be on the back line acting as full caster. You have multiple panic button spells or additional defenses to use with high enough concentration to maintain them, such as Foresight, Time Stop, several teleports, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Globe of Invulnerability, Invulnerability, Warding Wind, Misty Step, Dimension Door, and Antimagic Field. While the barbarian and possibly the fighter will have somewhat overtaken you on HP if they boost their con, your massive array of active defenses make you significantly more durable than they could possibly become.

And the best part? You're still an 18th level wizard with 9th level spells. You have no obligation or desire to go into melee or pretend to be a gish. You simply cast as a normal wizard who dipped for defenses, and should any mortal dare to strike you, then you release your greatest words of power upon them, "stop hitting yourself".

[Algeh]

See, and I would have felt this was the perfect campaign for the Barbarian Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard)...maybe go that route after the inevitable, dramatic, and hopefully hilarious death of your first caster.

[Squiddish]

I wish I could've gotten here earlier, so I could recommend against escalating this.

Instead, my recommendation would have been a support build. Help the rest of the party, by buffing the martials to hideous levels and manipulating the battlefield in their favor. Get them to like you, while fading into the background.

[Easy_Lee]

I wish I could've gotten here earlier, so I could recommend against escalating this.

Instead, my recommendation would have been a support build. Help the rest of the party, by buffing the martials to hideous levels and manipulating the battlefield in their favor. Get them to like you, while fading into the background.

That's basically what I recommended, a subtle-casting coffeelock who heals the party in their sleep, uses invisible buffs and controls (subtle spell), and pretends as though he's not actually a spellcaster. I think that's what he went with so I suppose we'll have to wait to hear how things go.

JJ, please keep us informed. I'm interested to hear how this plays out.