[3.5] Unseen Seer warforged gish

[Uncle Pine]

Good day everyone!

Yesterday I was talking with a friend and we came up with the concept for a sneaky warforged character. Kind of your usual capable assassin, except he's a robot with a ninja vibe (because Everything is Better with Robots (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantAwesomeJustAddMecha)and Ninjas (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GratuitousNinja)).

I figured making this character an Unseen Seer would fit the bill and I liked the idea of a Soul Eater (BoVD 66) warforged from another thread I saw yesterday, so having at least 1 level of that would also be fun. The problem is that despite having played d&d for over a decade it's been quite a while since I last had a session, let alone building a gish, and I've never created an Unseen Seer before. In other words, I have no clue where to start.
How would you go to create a Class X/Class Y/Unseen Seer Z/Soul Eater 1 between 7th- and 11th-level so that it isn't too frail and can do a decent job in melee combat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

MM3 has the Warforged Scout, which is small size and gets +2 Dex, -2 Str, Wis, Cha, not very favorable stats but it's a bit more sneaky.

The problem with Unseen Seer is that they don't get much BAB. You sort of need to pick two from spellcasting, BAB, and skills, and that type of build goes for spellcasting and skills. Often it's built as a skillful spellcaster that uses ray spells and the Acidic Splatter reserve feat to deliver sneak attacks.

Per the Rules Compendium on page 42, the last bullet point states that a form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack. Thus the best way to deliver sneak attacks with rays is to use a spontaneous class like Sorcerer, and cast Scorching Ray with Split Ray as a full-round action so every one of your attacks deals sneak attack damage. Get Practical Metamagic and/or Arcane Thesis or similar so it's only a +1 metamagic cost, you can even include Metamagic School Focus if needed to make it +0 three times per day for each time you've taken that. Just Invisible Spell plus Split Ray with Arcane Thesis is a +0 metamagic cost.

Start with Rogue, Spellthief, or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (if you want to use dorjes and get psionic feats, more options is better), get four levels of your spellcasting class of choice, and then go into Unseen Seer.

I'd skip Soul Eater, as it's frequently misinterpreted. The energy drain ability is Supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), which means it always takes a standard action to activate unless the ability itself says otherwise, which it doesn't. You can't combine it with a full attack, so you're only going to be making one (sneak) attack in a round that you also deliver a negative level.

[Dread_Head]

I would also suggest Warforged Scout if you want to go for a sneaky Warforged although that's not to say the regular version won't work. For a fun and somewhat unusual build I'd suggest entering unseen seer with a scout duskblade combo. Arcane channeling works on a standard action so combos well with moving to trigger skirmish. Then channel your favourite damage spell with skirmish on top and roll a boatload of d6 for damage.

Something like Scout 3 / Duskblade 2 / Unseen Seer 1 / Duskblade +1 / Unseen Seer +9 would work as a basis.

The build progresses in that order to qualify for Improved Skirmish at 6, you could switch the levels round though if you don't mind waiting til 9 for that feat. You'll want Practised Spellcaster as well and probably Mithral Body since you can cast in light armour.

As Biffoniacus_Furiou says you technically need to use a standard action for soul eaters energy drain attack which makes it considerably less worthwhile. If your DM rules otherwise or you want the prestige class anyway then the first level slots into this build at 8th.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
MM3 has the Warforged Scout, which is small size and gets +2 Dex, -2 Str, Wis, Cha, not very favorable stats but it's a bit more sneaky.

I dropped in to suggest this very thing. I’ve used these to great effect in a past campaign, with some spellcasting levels and a scaled-down tressym familiar. They managed to provide a surprisingly effective challenge to the PCs, and they worked well as part of a renegade warforged man-hunting team. Good times, and highly recommended.

[Uncle Pine]

MM3 has the Warforged Scout, which is small size and gets +2 Dex, -2 Str, Wis, Cha, not very favorable stats but it's a bit more sneaky.

I totally forgot about those. Thanks for the suggestion.


The problem with Unseen Seer is that they don't get much BAB. You sort of need to pick two from spellcasting, BAB, and skills, and that type of build goes for spellcasting and skills. Often it's built as a skillful spellcaster that uses ray spells and the Acidic Splatter reserve feat to deliver sneak attacks.

Per the Rules Compendium on page 42, the last bullet point states that a form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack. Thus the best way to deliver sneak attacks with rays is to use a spontaneous class like Sorcerer, and cast Scorching Ray with Split Ray as a full-round action so every one of your attacks deals sneak attack damage. Get Practical Metamagic and/or Arcane Thesis or similar so it's only a +1 metamagic cost, you can even include Metamagic School Focus if needed to make it +0 three times per day for each time you've taken that. Just Invisible Spell plus Split Ray with Arcane Thesis is a +0 metamagic cost.

Start with Rogue, Spellthief, or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (if you want to use dorjes and get psionic feats, more options is better), get four levels of your spellcasting class of choice, and then go into Unseen Seer.

These are all solid advices, so first of all thanks for that. What would change from the suggested Rogue-ish class 1/Spellcasting class 4/Unseen Seer X if I decided to switch the two "focuses" of the build from spellcasting and skills to spellcasting and BAB? After all, it wouldn't be too hard to patch a lack of maxed ranks in Hide and Move Silently... at least most of the time and when Darkstalker wouldn't come in handy. Maybe using Stalwart Battle Sorcerer as spellcasting base or a Duskblade? Don't get me wrong, Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer X sounds extremely tempting (especially in the light of the next paragraph). I'm just evaluating all options.


I'd skip Soul Eater, as it's frequently misinterpreted. The energy drain ability is Supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), which means it always takes a standard action to activate unless the ability itself says otherwise, which it doesn't. You can't combine it with a full attack, so you're only going to be making one (sneak) attack in a round that you also deliver a negative level.

About Soul Eater's energy drain... while we would've gone with the interpretation that the ability works as part of unarmed strikes/natural attacks, I completely forgot that a warforged's slam is still a natural attack and as such it doesn't gain iteratives even with a battlefist attached. In fact, I was going by memory so I didn't even remember how battlefists worked. In other words, even with a favourable interpretation of energy drain it doesn't sound like an interesting option for a warforged unseen seer because I actually read the rules. Tough luck. :smallbiggrin:



I would also suggest Warforged Scout if you want to go for a sneaky Warforged although that's not to say the regular version won't work. For a fun and somewhat unusual build I'd suggest entering unseen seer with a scout duskblade combo. Arcane channeling works on a standard action so combos well with moving to trigger skirmish. Then channel your favourite damage spell with skirmish on top and roll a boatload of d6 for damage.

Something like Scout 3 / Duskblade 2 / Unseen Seer 1 / Duskblade +1 / Unseen Seer +9 would work as a basis.

The build progresses in that order to qualify for Improved Skirmish at 6, you could switch the levels round though if you don't mind waiting til 9 for that feat. You'll want Practised Spellcaster as well and probably Mithral Body since you can cast in light armour.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it and add it to the list for when I'll compare all my options and decide how to go to build the killer ninja robot. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For more of a focus on BAB and spellcasting but keeping Unseen Seer, it's going to be difficult to find a full BAB class that has the class skills to meet the prerequisites and still has any kind of synergy with the class.

Maybe dip Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1 for class skills, maybe use Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) with Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), maybe use Fighter feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Wizard to get TWF instead of Scribe Scroll.

Maybe use normal Ranger 2 for TWF, go Ranger 2/ Sneak Attack Thug 1/ Fighter feat Wizard 2/ Unseen Seer.

For a gish with decent casting, BAB, and skills, go (Fast Movement) Ranger 1/ Ardent 4/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified Mind 6. Always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) for Ardent.

For a sneak attacking gish in general, go Spellthief 1/ Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer 9. Get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin to deal 2 Int damage with every sneak attack. That's better than Soul Eater since most bruiser opponents have a very low Int score and can be taken down in a single full attack with that. The Spellthief level allows you to use a Wand of Wraithstrike, it's a swift action to activate just like the spell's casting time, and you can put it in a wand chamber in one of your weapons.

[umbergod]

Unseen Seer can be entered without a single SA granting class, due to not actually requiring any SA dice as a prerequisite :3

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unseen Seer can be entered without a single SA granting class, due to not actually requiring any SA dice as a prerequisite :3

True, but at its first level it grants +1d6 to your existing sneak attack, skirmish, etc. class feature. If you don't have any of that already, it's wasted.

[DEMON]

True, but at its first level it grants +1d6 to your existing sneak attack, skirmish, etc. class feature. If you don't have any of that already, it's wasted.

But at second level, you get Advanced Learning for divination spells. Hunter's Eye (Rgr 2, PHB 2) can give you SA, so the feature is useful again.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But at second level, you get Advanced Learning for divination spells. Hunter's Eye (Rgr 2, PHB 2) can give you SA, so the feature is useful again.

"If you have more than one of these abilities, only one ability gains this increase (choose each time you gain this benefit)."

You choose what class feature (sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike) you apply it to upon gaining it. If you don't have any of those class features at the level you gain it, you don't get to apply it to anything. You gain +1d6 to absolutely nothing, regardless of what you gain later on.

[DEMON]

"If you have more than one of these abilities, only one ability gains this increase (choose each time you gain this benefit)."

You choose what class feature (sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike) you apply it to upon gaining it. If you don't have any of those class features at the level you gain it, you don't get to apply it to anything. You gain +1d6 to absolutely nothing, regardless of what you gain later on.

Good point. I didn't remember that clause.

Though teeeechnically... it doesn't say you can't choose sneak attack, if you don't have any of these abilities and start benefiting from this class feature after you actually get sneak attack :smalltongue:

There are other weird interpretations, too. Like the "choose each time you gain this benefit" part and the class feature at higher levels being presented as +2d6, +3d6... suggesting you can choose to allocate the full damage bonus from SA to SS or Skirmish at levels 4, 7 and 10 :smallamused:

[umbergod]

True, but at its first level it grants +1d6 to your existing sneak attack, skirmish, etc. class feature. If you don't have any of that already, it's wasted.

Can i get a source for this, bc my google-fu is weak and i haven't found anything that states that. I can see how RAW that could make sense, but at the same time, RAI it should grant sneak attack since it doesnt actually list it as a prerequisite.

[Uncle Pine]

For a sneak attacking gish in general, go Spellthief 1/ Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer 9. Get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin to deal 2 Int damage with every sneak attack. That's better than Soul Eater since most bruiser opponents have a very low Int score and can be taken down in a single full attack with that. The Spellthief level allows you to use a Wand of Wraithstrike, it's a swift action to activate just like the spell's casting time, and you can put it in a wand chamber in one of your weapons.

That looks awesome! There's nothing better than taking a robot ninja assassin and turning it into a psychic robot ninja assassin. Thanks again.

[Eldariel]

BAB isn't that important. You can buff your to hit as a Wizard just fine (e.g. Knowledge Devotion, Wraithstrike) and down the line you can just Arcane Disciple for Divine Power to get all iteratives. The standard Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 is about the best there is. And it can Gish more than fine, using either spells or weapons or a combination there-of. Of course, Incantatrix would make things better to persist things early but it isn't bad as it is. Fractional BAB would of course help to make hitting without spells slightly easier. But yeah, Hunter's Eye is a must-have spell for sneak attack and then just get things that improve your skills (Divine Insight [Spell Compendium], Guidance of the Avatar, etc.). Get Persistent Spell even if you don't use Incantatrix or the like by the time you get level 7 spells; 1 round swift action spells like Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Hunter's Eye, etc. are all definitely worth having up all day.

That said, a psionic variant is also fine. But never let it be said that an arcane gish can't have all three.