Fear-causing Tank? bard-paladin? Bard-barian? Sorcadin?

[Hiro Quester]

Mostly core game, but DM will okay other prestige classes, spells, feats on an ad-hoc basis; this is a campaign he has run before and he wants to keep a lid on the power and balance issues a large group like ours can have. So I'm trying to stick to core and greyhawk setting as much as possible.

Rest of the party: rogue, monk, ranger/scout, necromancer wizard, cleric, buffer entertainer bard.
In our next game I was originally going to play a dwarven battle-cleric tank.

But then another player wanted to be the tank and we had another wanting to be cleric, so I built a gnome bard/dread witch to be enemy debuffer (specializing in illusions, fear and enchantments). DM has okayed Dread Witch.

But now the Tank player might not be able to commit to the game.

A few ideas occurred to me last night:
1. Many of the bard's best fear effects are a radius around him, so better done from the front lines.
2. Most of the essential fear spells are not particularly high level.
3. I like playing fighter-caster types (last game I was druid), and intimidating fighter types are needed to escalate fear effects.

So could an inspire awe bard and dread witch (for fear songs and casting), be combined with a half-orc martial type (Paladin, Barbarian for higher-hit dice, and naturally intimidating) be an effective fear caster/tank?

Or even bard/sorceror/paladin? (Sorcerer has access to Enlarge person, which improves intimidate as well as melee abilities)

I'm not necessarily aiming for gish levels of optimization, with 9th levels spells. But 6th level would be nice if I can swing it. An intimidating martial type with some fear songs and spells seems like it could be fun.

Looking at Caedrus's fear guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389244-Caedrus-Art-of-War-vol-1-Fear-Handbook), and thinking about options.

Half-orc would be good paladin (or barbarian), because desert half-orc doesn't have a charisma penalty. Also ACFs are pretty good for causing fear. Half-orc paladin ACF grants d12 HD, Intimidate instead of Diplomacy, and Aura of Awe at 3rd level.

So, perhaps something like a desert half-orc Inspire Awe Bard1/Paladin of Freedom3/Sorcerer4/Dread Witch5/Eldritch Knight 7 (progressing Sorcerer casting, with Practised Spellcaster feat to make up for lost CLs). that seems like it could work (but I haven't yet gone through details of skills and prerequisites).

Or something similar with Harmonious Knight instead of Bard and Paladin, if I can convince DM to allow this FR performing Paladin in a Greyhawk game , and allow him to have Half-orc paladin ACFs and Inspire Awe instead of Inspire courage (unlikely, but maybe worth a shot).

Or perhaps a combination of a scary tank cleric with dread witch is possible, if there are domains that grant cause fear and scare (prerequisites for Dread Witch). Clerics don't get intimidate and have very few skill points, though. That's probably a stretch.

Or maybe a barbarian base? I can't quite see it yet, but rage mage seems like it might help?

One level of Evangelist for inspire dread (enemies get -4 to will saves) might be a good addition to a fear build like this.

Has anyone build anything like this before? Advice and options would be most appreciated.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Has anyone build anything like this before?

Here ya go: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5

[Hiro Quester]

Here ya go: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5

Wow. That is a scary Paladin. Possibly a bit over-optimized for our table (stacked to the limits with ACFs). And very dependent on non-core items feats and spells.

But I could use it as a guide. Thanks, Biff!

[Hiro Quester]

Now looking at a bard-barian, too

Half-Orc Desert Bard4/Rage Mage1/Battle Howler of Grummsh 5/ Dread Witch 5/ Champion of Gwynharwf 4 might be possible.

Inspire Awe Bard 3
Maybe a level or two of Barbarian for rage and fast movement?
Battle Howler progresses Bard casting, bardic music, and rage. Level 4 enables bardic music while raging It's Dragon Mag (so DM would have to approve).
Dread Witch improves bard's casting 4/5, and grants awesome fear penetration (essential at higher levels to piece immunity to fear).

Perhaps Champion of Gwynharwf, for Divine grace, Smite Evil, and at level 4 rage causes everyone in 30 ft to save vs shaken (DC = Intimidate check).

That would give Bard 13 casting (5th level spells), as well as CoG casting (level 4; meh), Cha to will saves twice, Cha to attack and damage 1/day.

Would Rage Mage be useful in such a build? Casting while raging, and making concentration checks while raging seems useful.

[Menzath]

I feel like charisma would be a secondary or tertiary stat in a bardbarian build.
Maybe start with paladin or hexblade, use prestige bard, and fill in from there?

And if you want better spell selection/progression all you need is one level of sublime chord.

[Matrota]

Have you considered the Harbinger Bard ACF from Dragon Magazine #337? It's all about causing fear, inflicting penalties, and even gets paralyzing bardic music and a bardic music feature that can cause someone to gain two negative levels for the duration. It replaces all the buffing music stuff of the bard to enemy debuffs.

[Hiro Quester]

I think you are right that CHA would be secondary on a barbarian.

But battle howler uses bardic music, bard casting, and rage, which makes it a bit more useful. It's basically a raging bard.

But I think that the bardic-flavored paladin might be a better idea. If only it could have better casting of fear spells.

I'm more fond of inspire Awe, than the harbinger bard. But that is an interesting debuffer bard class option I'd never heard of before. Thanks.

So inspire awe singing sorcadin? Harmonic knight paladin, with sorcerer and dread witch, then full casting high-ish BaB PrC?

Edit:DM is trying to keep a lid on e cessive power. I played a sublime chord DFI melee bard in his game before. I think he regretted how awesome that was.

So I'm trying to avoid anything too cheesy. So I'm staying away from SC this time.

[Zaq]

Here's a trick from my (very, very) old Ogar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10359380&postcount=112) build: If you're using Barbarian (and thus, presumably, Intimidating Rage), you can take Mounted Fury (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a) to give your mount the benefits that you get when you activate Rage, including Intimidating Rage. Which means you make (or your side makes) two Intimidate checks as free actions when you rage. Which means instant fear-stacking, especially if you have any way of extending the duration.

(The linked build combined that with, among other things, Bear Warrior, resulting in the good old "stack of fear-stacking bears" combo, but that's not strictly necessary if you don't feel like going full silly.)

[Hiro Quester]

The mount also making an intimidate check is an great idea, for fear escalating. Wow.


Edit: the bear warrior is a cool add-on too for that character. But I played a druid last game. I think DM had enough of uber-attacking animal forms from me in that campaign.

I'm not sure I'll keep the Paladin mount (the Underdark knight is looking okay). Especially if one stayed in paladin long enough to get Earth Glide and Dimension Door. (See Biff's link above for Uber-intimidating Paladin) as a trade if I stayed in Paladin long term.

But I'm now considering bailing from paladin after a few levels and pumping Bard or sorcerer casting, with Fist of Raziel PrC. It gats d10 HD, Full BAB, and 9/10 casting progression. Fist of Raziel is normally LG. But Raziel “opposes tyranny and oppression with a ferocity that is both startling and inspiring.” So perhaps fits with CG Paladin of Freedom.

Fist of Raziel requires being able to cast Divine favor. So Paladin 4 or Cleric 1.

So something like CG Half orc Paladin 4 (with Harmonizing Knight, Half-Orc Paladin subs), Sorceror 4 for Scare spell), Dread Witch 4 amping up fear), then Fist of Raziel 8.
That would get Sorceror 14 casting, with 7th level spells, 16 BAB, along with Smite, Fear aura, huge increases to Intimidate and piercing fear immunity, and Inspire Awe bardic music. No rage. Dread Witch 5 would get Horrific Aura

But I'd like to make room for Half Orc Paragon for +4 intimidate, Whirling Fury Rage, and +2 Str. Maybe sticking with that, and Paladin would be better, (Paladin2/Paragon 3/Paladin+2, Sorcerer 3 and then Fist of Raziel 10.
That would get sorcerer 12 casting, with 6th level spells, 18 BAB, Whirling Fury Rage, even better smite, and Bardic Inspire Awe.

Hmm...

[RFLS]

If you feel like pushing your luck, see if you can back-port PF's antipaladin to 3.5.

[Eldariel]

Cleric would work. Cause Fear is on their spell list and some domains grant Scare, e.g. Hatred. And Intimidate can also be gained through a domain (e.g. Dragon) or a feat (Dread Tyranny also adds Str to Intimidate checks plus adding Scare among others to your list while Initiate of Tiamat is also nice).

In short, Hextorite Half-Orc (Cloistered) Cleric with Dread Tyranny and a domain for Cause Fear would be more than fine. The other easy option would be Cleric of any draconic deity. You probably want the extra skills from Cloistered Cleric, but that's not an obstacle for fighting and tanking. Divine Power down the line and buffs in general more than make up for the minor difference in BAB. Of course, you could also combine martial intimidation tactics (Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command + Fearsome Armor) with spells to great effect (Fear [Tyranny-domain] for example autoshakens even enemies that make the save...combine with some escalation and you have a bunch of panicked, cowering cowards). This would of course shoot up all spells that cause Shaken/Frightened conditions in value thanks to fear escalation, but you'd have to mind enemies immune or highly resistant to these tactics. Luckily Cleric has no shortage of options, least of which is bringing down the hammer most just upon the lawbreakers.

Dread Tyranny also gives you Black Tentacles, which is just awesome (control? Here, have a bunch of high Grapple check tentacles that grab everything in the area). Also Dominate Person. Meanwhile, Initiate of Tiamat gives you Charm and Dominate Person among other things, but lacks Scare which you'd need to access somehow.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks Eladriel.

I was also considering a cleric. A few levels of dread witch on a cleric (with Hate domain for scare) would work. Those options would make it much better.

The main issue is abilities. Paladin with bard or sorcerer casting focuses more on Charisma strength and constitution. We are going to have a limited ability array (15,14,13,12,11,10). Fear Cleric tank might be too MAD to pull off with those abilities.

[Eldariel]

Thanks Eladriel.

I was also considering a cleric. A few levels of dread witch on a cleric (with Hate domain for scare) would work. Those options would make it much better.

The main issue is abilities. Paladin with bard or sorcerer casting focuses more on Charisma strength and constitution. We are going to have a limited ability array (15,14,13,12,11,10). Fear Cleric tank might be too MAD to pull off with those abilities.

Like I mentioned, Dread Tyranny [Races of Destiny] gives Strength to Intimidate (in addition to giving you Scare) so you can work around that with but a single feat on a Hextorite Cleric. Str buffs all the way; you'll want Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Divine Power and Righteous Might as you go anyways.