Did Mace Windu have the Emperor in Episode III? [Archive]

Mechalich

2018-02-16, 08:55 PM

People have gone either way on this for ages, and probably always will. At the very least, even if Palpatine had been playing things up for Anakin's benefit, by the time he's on his back on the floor with Mace' lightsaber at his neck there's no getting out of that situation without outside help.

Personally, I'd be inclined to give Paplatine good odds if it were him and Mace Windu mano a mano, but in the context of four Jedi Masters versus one Sith Lord, you've got to give it to the Jedi. RotS choses to focus on the one on one duel (because it makes the choreography easier and because most fans have no idea who the other three Jedi are), but Palpatine couldn't have been happy to see four masters walk through the door with Anakin not among them. The snarl that he gives when they confront him is the first time his composure breaks during the PT.

I feel that Palpatine, in choosing to wink, wink reveal his Sith origins to Anakin fully expected that Anakin would demand to be among those who confronted him - which Anakin did. He gambled that the Jedi would want to bring one of their very best duelists along for the ride - Anakin and Mace fighting together as Jedi against Palptine would have taken him apart in seconds - and that he could manipulate the encounter that way. It was a high risk move for the ultimate reward, and Mace Windu's temporary victory illustrates just how close Palpatine came to failing. If Anakin had vacillated just a little longer - for instance if he'd tried to call Padme or Obi-Wan for advice - Palpatine would have been slain.

Saying that Palpatine had things the whole undercuts the Jedi even more than the PT already does. Mace Windu's decision to leave Anakin behind - and to induce him to stay put by making it into a test of trust - is one of the few unambiguously correct choices the Jedi Council makes during the whole trilogy.

Traab

2018-02-16, 09:09 PM

Mith

2018-02-16, 10:42 PM

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith. It takes everything that makes them dangerous, and uses it against them. If I understand it correctly, the stronger the sith, the more effective it is against them.

My understanding is that that is more or less true. It builds up the flow of Dark Side energy, and since it is spiritually corruptive, and Sith just let the power flow through them, they lose the barriers to keep it from harming them.

Darth Ultron

2018-02-16, 10:42 PM

No.

It was all part of the Plan.

Remember Jedi/Sith can see and sense the future, so Palptine should have had an idea of what was coming. Palptine foresaw Anakin would 'save' him.

But it's a bit much for Palptine to manipulate the whole galaxy for decades, and then just toss it all away for a five minute 'pew pew' fight. After all, the only reason Mace shows up to arrest Palptine...is because Palptine wanted that to happen. Out of nowhere Palptine 'suddenly' tells Anikin that he is a 'Sith Lord', right at the time he wants to 'escalate' things. It's not like the Jedi figure it out for real, by themselves.

The Mace vs Palptine fight is not exactly Epic....Mace just kinda 'wins' as Palptine 'gives up'. Like five minutes later when Palptine fights Yoda, he is suddenly all powerful....

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-16, 10:54 PM

People have gone either way on this for ages, and probably always will. At the very least, even if Palpatine had been playing things up for Anakin's benefit, by the time he's on his back on the floor with Mace' lightsaber at his neck there's no getting out of that situation without outside help.
I don't think that's the case.

Mace doesn't look poised or resolved to kill Palpatine. He simply states to him "You have lost." It's after the sith lightning attack that Mace determines he is too dangerous to leave alive and he has to be killed.

Meaning, I really think Palpatine was playing that scene up. I mean... the only one harming Palpatine the entire time is... himself. Why continue blasting out sith lightning when Windu is reflecting it back to you? Because he's playing on Anakin's fears and emotions. "Don't let him kill me" he says, as he fries himself with his own lightning lol. Then he says something along the lines of "I can't hold on any longer" and "I'm weak" and he seems feeble and exhausted from the lightning damage and he's mewling and begging for his life. And when Anakin chops off Windu's arm suddenly he's blasting out more lightning and screaming at the top of his lungs, reveling in his violence. And all of that feebleness and weakness vanishes in an instant.

It's an act.

Regarding the lightsaber to the throat, well, we see how Mace goes to execute him. Plenty of time in that sword stroke for Palpatine to do... anything really. But I don't think we would have seen Palpatine in that position if Anakin wasn't on his way. We know Palpatine can sense Anakin from across the galaxy, so he knew Anakin was on his way. And Anakin found Palpatine exactly as he wanted to be found, at the mercy of Jedi Master Mace Windu, the traitor trying to take over the Republic.

...but Palpatine couldn't have been happy to see four masters walk through the door with Anakin not among them.
If that's the case, it's not because he feels threatened by their numbers, but because his plan was to have Anakin there. When Yoda confronts Palpatine, he tries to leave the room. When Windu and the other masters confront Palpatine, he cuts three of them down in a matter of seconds. Palpatine didn't seem to feel threatened at all by Windu or the others masters.

Peelee

2018-02-16, 11:02 PM

Windu woulda won. Palps was throwing everything he had at him, as evidenced by his disfiguration. Regardless of whether his plan was to be at Mace's mercy or not, dude was still at his mercy. Alea iacta est.

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith.
His entire style was based around fighting something her believed no longer existed for a thousand years? That sounds about as useful as a four-star general at the Pentagon specialising in defense against Viking battle strategies.

No.

It was all part of the Plan.

Remember Jedi/Sith can see and sense the future, so Palptine should have had an idea of what was coming. Palptine foresaw Anakin would 'save' him.

Exactly, which is why he was able to forsee his victory over Endor and the end of the Rebellion.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-16, 11:12 PM

Windu's style is about skirting the Dark Side and channeling that energy into the lightsaber combat. It's not really about fighting Sith. It's more about confronting your own vulnerability to the dark side and using it to fight. Windu recognized a darkness in him (I think a penchant for violence IIRC) and that inspired his creation of vaapaad.

Take all this with a grain of salt because I haven't read the books in ages.

Metahuman1

2018-02-16, 11:42 PM

Mechalich

2018-02-17, 12:27 AM

If that's the case, it's not because he feels threatened by their numbers, but because his plan was to have Anakin there. When Yoda confronts Palpatine, he tries to leave the room. When Windu and the other masters confront Palpatine, he cuts three of them down in a matter of seconds. Palpatine didn't seem to feel threatened at all by Windu or the others masters.

When Yoda confronts Palpatine, Palpatine could potentially summon hundreds of clone trooper reinforcements to obliterate Yoda rather than fighting him. So it makes sense to retreat and call for reinforcements if possible (this is also why Yoda can't just go back and try again after failing). That's not the case when the Masters confront Palpatine. If Palpatine flees at that time he loses everything. The Jedi declare him a fugitive, briefly take control of the Republic until a new Supreme Chancellor (probably Bail Organa) is appointed, and he is eventually hunted down. It's a win or die moment.

Yes Palpatine cuts down three of the four masters very rapidly, but this is fight choreography contrivance that is attributed to 'surprise.' The three other masters: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto were all formidable Jedi. Fisto - who actually does exchange a few blows with Palpatine, was a combatant equal to Grievous as shown in TCW.

Palpatine certainly plays things up after Anakin arrives. There's no doubt about that, but he actually attempts to use force lightning before he starts begging only to have it deflected. He's not in the place he wants to be.

I suspect Palpatine wanted the Jedi to walk in with Anakin and he could play up his defenseless nature before and fighting started and get Anakin to draw saber and stand between him and the Jedi, at which point Palpatine would have forced the instigation of combat and it would have been him and Anakin versus four Jedi - much better odds. Palpatine was vulnerable to being overwhelmed by numbers - Savage Oppress and Darth Maul were able to match him in a tag team even though he easily defeated them separately.

Ultimately, it's important that Mace Windu beats Palpatine in the confrontation, because otherwise it dramatically reduces the impact of Anakin's choice. If Palpatine could have beaten Windu regardless, then Anakin's fall does not significantly contribute to the emergence of the Empire. Order 66, the assault on the Jedi Temple, and the Separatist purge on Mustafar could all have happened without him. A fallen Anakin arguably contributes to Obi-Wan separating from Yoda rather than them both trying to assassinate Palpatine, but that seems like a reach. In the absence of unassailable evidence, I consider the fact that Mace winning makes the story better to be persuasive.

Darth Ultron

2018-02-17, 01:10 AM

Just re-watch the fight.

Mace and Palpatine do a bit of a boring lightsaber fight, with Palpatine doing a couple flips and moves, but Mace just stands there and swings.

THEN, with Palpatine stops and waits while holding his lightsaber in front of him across his chest.

THEN Mace does a high kick, over Palpatine's lightsaber that he holds still, and kicks Palpatine in the face. Palpatine could have easily deflected that kick and cut Mace's leg off.

THEN, after being kicked in the face, Palpatine flies backwards and brings his arm from in front of his chest to spread out to the side.

THEN, for no real reason (other then his Evil Plot) Palpatine lets go of his lightsaber and tosses it out the open window.

AND mace ''disarms'' Palpatine, literately at the exact second Anakin walks into the room

So then we get to the bit where Palpatine shoots out the force lighting that Mace deflects/absorbs. So Palpatine shoots lighting for a couple seconds...

THEN, suddenly, Palpatine is ''so weak'' and his force lighting fades away and he begs Anakin for help.

BUT, one second, after Anakin turns to the Dark Side and cuts off Mace's hand...then SUDDENLY Palpatine is ALL POWERFUL.

Lethologica

2018-02-17, 01:30 AM

Just re-watch the fight.
The problem with taking the choreography as dispositive is that they literally didn't teach Ian McDiarmid stage fighting before the scene, so the choreography is strongly influenced by out-of-universe concerns.

factotum

2018-02-17, 01:50 AM

BUT, one second, after Anakin turns to the Dark Side and cuts off Mace's hand...then SUDDENLY Palpatine is ALL POWERFUL.

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there? Or was he so supremely confident in his own predictions that he didn't have such a thing? (Admittedly, that would match up rather well with his actions in the throne room in episode VI).

Celestia

2018-02-17, 01:53 AM

I don't remember where it is, but if I remember correctly, Lucas gave Word of God on that scene that Windu had legitimately won. If Anakin hadn't shown up, Palpatine would have been finished right there.

Anteros

2018-02-17, 01:55 AM

I think mace had the win. His entire style is based around fighting sith. It takes everything that makes them dangerous, and uses it against them. If I understand it correctly, the stronger the sith, the more effective it is against them.

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.

Mechalich

2018-02-17, 02:21 AM

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.

During the PT Era, because of the Rule of Two the Jedi outnumbered the Sith 5000 to 1 - and that's after the order had spent a thousand years in declining numbers. While there are other force traditions that use lightsabers and fight similarly to the Sith, as well as some number of non-Sith dark jedi, they remain a minority of force users. There are more Nightsisters shown in a single episode of TCW than there are Sith in the entire galaxy. And force users in general aren't the most common threat Jedi face. Jedi were primarily trained for combat against mundane threats like criminals, pirates, rogue military forces, and even dangerous beasts. Insofar as most of the PT era Jedi acquired specialized combat training it was in fighting battle droids during the Clone Wars, considering they did that a lot.

Jedi in other eras may have been more focused in fighting Sith, because Sith were more abundant during those time periods, but even then lightsaber wielding opponents were relatively rare. Also, combat technology would change in response to an abundance of lightsaber-using assets on battlefields. In KOTOR, for example, everyone is carrying cortosis-weave vibroweapons that can duel lightsabers and there's an abundance of close-range technologies like flamethrowers in use to mitigate the advantage lightsabers have against straight-up blasters.

Anteros

2018-02-17, 02:26 AM

During the PT Era, because of the Rule of Two the Jedi outnumbered the Sith 5000 to 1 - and that's after the order had spent a thousand years in declining numbers. While there are other force traditions that use lightsabers and fight similarly to the Sith, as well as some number of non-Sith dark jedi, they remain a minority of force users. There are more Nightsisters shown in a single episode of TCW than there are Sith in the entire galaxy. And force users in general aren't the most common threat Jedi face. Jedi were primarily trained for combat against mundane threats like criminals, pirates, rogue military forces, and even dangerous beasts. Insofar as most of the PT era Jedi acquired specialized combat training it was in fighting battle droids during the Clone Wars, considering they did that a lot.

Jedi in other eras may have been more focused in fighting Sith, because Sith were more abundant during those time periods, but even then lightsaber wielding opponents were relatively rare. Also, combat technology would change in response to an abundance of lightsaber-using assets on battlefields. In KOTOR, for example, everyone is carrying cortosis-weave vibroweapons that can duel lightsabers and there's an abundance of close-range technologies like flamethrowers in use to mitigate the advantage lightsabers have against straight-up blasters.

Sure, but you can't tell me someone like Windu wouldn't be effective against droids too. There's no reason to not train your fighters to defeat their single largest threat outside of sheer abject stupidity. Although to be fair, the Jedi do engage in that quite a bit so it's not exactly out of character.

Lethologica

2018-02-17, 02:51 AM

Sure, but you can't tell me someone like Windu wouldn't be effective against droids too. There's no reason to not train your fighters to defeat their single largest threat outside of sheer abject stupidity. Although to be fair, the Jedi do engage in that quite a bit so it's not exactly out of character.
I don't know if this stuff even exists outside the EU, but...Naturally the people who came up with Mace Windu's lightsaber style asked themselves the same question you asked, and they strove to provide answers. The typical construction of lightsaber forms casts Form VII Juyo, from which Windu's Vaapaad style derives, as dangerous and difficult to learn. Vaapaad in particular is described as channeling one's inner darkness, and it is consequently both only narrowly suitable (Jedi without much inner darkness can't make full use of the form) and spiritually risky. The latter issue is borne out in practice: of the four 'notable' Vaapaad users (Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and Quinlan Vos), three fell to the dark side at some point, with Vaapaad being an element of their falls. Also, Vaapaad was created by Windu and one other Jedi, so there hasn't been a lot of time to address its issues or popularize the form.

In summary: despite being good against Sith, Vaapaad is not ubiquitous because it's (a) new, (b) dangerous, and (c) unsuitable for many Jedi.

Aeson

2018-02-17, 03:31 AM

As far as the thread subject goes:
Certainly by the time Palpatine is disarmed and flat on his back, I'd be inclined to give the fight to Windu. Given how rapidly Palpatine dispatched the other three Jedi Masters who turned up to arrest him and given how well Palpatine did against Yoda, I'd be willing to believe that Palpatine could have beaten Windu, but not to the point that I feel that the only way Palpatine could possibly have lost is if he were throwing the fight intentionally.

That being said, and ignoring fight choreography issues, I would be very inclined to say that Windu being able to defeat Palpatine when Palpatine dispatched the other three Masters so rapidly strongly implies either that Palpatine is throwing the fight or that Windu is a much, much better duelist than the other three Masters were, even assuming Palpatine resisting arrest caught the Jedi completely off guard.

Makes you wonder why they would ever train their Jedi any other way since Sith are basically the only threat in the entire galaxy to them.
Within the films, it really isn't true that Sith are the only credible threat to Jedi. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fled rather than fight the droidekas on the Trade Federation battleship; Jango Fett killed at least one Jedi in the arena on Geonosis before getting his head chopped off and the droid army certainly seemed to be on its way to overwhelming the Jedi before the clone army turned up; and relatively small numbers of clones don't seem to have too much difficulty killing most of the Jedi, even at the Temple where many of the Jedi would have had some time to recover from the initial shock of the betrayal and defend themselves.

Also, given that there are only two Sith and that the Sith have been in hiding for the better part of a thousand years, I would say that training Jedi for a threat that they're actually likely to encounter (multiple opponents with blasters) makes more sense than training them for a threat which apparently hasn't existed for a thousand years (small numbers of highly-trained Force sensitives armed with lightsabers), even if it were literally true that Sith are the only credible threat to a fully-trained Jedi who is not taken unawares.

Vinyadan

2018-02-17, 06:24 AM

Windu was winning, and also falling to the dark side. He used the same arguments that the Sith Lord had used with Anakin to justify killing incapacitated prisoners. This ruffled Anakin's jimmies, and he cut Windu's hand off. Probably he saw the Jedi and the Sith as practically the same thing by now, with the difference that the one Sith he knew had given him a lot of nice things, and promised him more, while the Jedi had been keeping him restrained, forbidden his love, and frustrated his ambitions.

I never found Windu to be a badass, by the way. I think that that's what the marketing wants you to believe. In the movies, he looks like a guy who just woke up, has no distinctive character, and occasionally chops people up. So, you know, your standard, unnamed, cookie-cutter Jedi.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-17, 07:43 AM

I think Mace legitimately had him. I think he anticipated Anakin being right there in the room with them and being willing to start stabbing Jedi in the back at his prompting, and that when that didn't happen, he tried to fight his way out of it because now his back was too the wall.

I think when Anakin did finally show up, THEN he started to play it up, not as a master plan, but as a desperate bid to get out of the hole he was in and he was fortunate enough that it worked.

That if Anakin had talked to Obi-wan or Padme or Yoda before going there, even if he'd ignored there advice, the five minutes or so delay would mean he'd have walked in on Mace standing over the body's of Palpatine and the other Jedi Masters.
Windu and the masters went there to arrest him. There is no fight unless Palpatine wants a fight. If he is so outmatched by Windu and the others, why would he fight them? I think the plan was always seduce Anakin or kill Anakin and the Jedi that came with him to arrest him.
When Yoda confronts Palpatine, Palpatine could potentially summon hundreds of clone trooper reinforcements to obliterate Yoda rather than fighting him. So it makes sense to retreat and call for reinforcements if possible (this is also why Yoda can't just go back and try again after failing). That's not the case when the Masters confront Palpatine. If Palpatine flees at that time he loses everything. The Jedi declare him a fugitive, briefly take control of the Republic until a new Supreme Chancellor (probably Bail Organa) is appointed, and he is eventually hunted down. It's a win or die moment.
If the Jedi declare him a fugitive and take control of the Republic, Palpatine wins. He has them declared as traitors conducting a coup and he annihilates them. He already has a plan in place to do it.

Yes Palpatine cuts down three of the four masters very rapidly, but this is fight choreography contrivance that is attributed to 'surprise.' The three other masters: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto were all formidable Jedi. Fisto - who actually does exchange a few blows with Palpatine, was a combatant equal to Grievous as shown in TCW.
However it's choreographed, the script must have called for Palpatine to cut down three masters in mere moments, because that's what we see. If I can't believe that he is that much better than they are because of what I see on screen, how can I believe that Windu supposedly bested him?

Palpatine certainly plays things up after Anakin arrives. There's no doubt about that, but he actually attempts to use force lightning before he starts begging only to have it deflected. He's not in the place he wants to be.
I think he's exactly where he wants to be. To me, it looks like Windu is having difficulty with Palpatine in the moments right after the three masters are cut down. He's wide-eyed, gasping, breathing hard. Palpatine appears to be forcing him back. Then they lock up and Windu grabs him. We cut away here. When we return, they're back to sparring. Somehow Palpatine got out of that lock-up unscathed, despite Windu appearing stronger and supposedly being the superior warrior. Even in the chamber, right before the kick that disarms Palpatine, Windu has a serious countenance, whereas Palpatine appears to be enjoying himself.

When the Jedi come to arrest Palpatine, he's arrogant, angry, and immediately violent. It's like he's offended that they would dare presume to wield power over him. But when Palpatine is "disarmed", his demeanor changes completely. Is this because Windu has him at his mercy? I really don't think it is. I don't think Palpatine is out of the fight here like others do, but he makes it seem like he is by crawling backwards and mewling.

But consider previous fights (and fights to come):

What does Darth Maul do when Kenobi is too close? He force pushes him away.
What does Tyranus do in his fight with Anakin? He force pushes him away.
How does Tyranus escape Yoda? Telekinesis.
How does Tyranus defeat Kenobi? Force push and telekinesis.
How does Palpatine greet Yoda? Force push.
How does Palpatine overwhelm Yoda in the senate chamber? Telekinesis.

What does Palpatine do when Windu is all up in his grill? He whines and begs for his life. It's a show. He looks like he's defeated but that is hardly the case. Last I knew, Mace Windu isn't immune to Force Push. But instead of force pushing the jedi master right out the window, he decides to melt his own face off with Sith Lightning, because he needs to seduce Anakin.

I really don't think he was in danger there.

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there?
Plan B was kill Windu and Anakin.

Palpatine can sense Anakin from galactic distances away. And force-users can sense the spiritual conflict in others. My assumption is that Palpatine can sense Anakin returning to his chambers and, once Anakin is there, can sense if Anaking is Falling or not.

But if Anakin doesn't fall, Palpatine kills both of them.

Darth Ultron

2018-02-17, 01:43 PM

Granted all this is true--what was plan B? What was Palpatine's get-out-of-jail-free card if Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side then and there? Or was he so supremely confident in his own predictions that he didn't have such a thing? (Admittedly, that would match up rather well with his actions in the throne room in episode VI).

I think he was supremely overconfident..it's his big character flaw.

He could of had some guards nearby.

Traab

2018-02-17, 02:31 PM

I think he was supremely overconfident..it's his big character flaw.

He could of had some guards nearby.

As was mentioned he never used telekinesis in that fight, so he probably had that as a trump card if things went pear shaped.

Drascin

2018-02-17, 02:32 PM

I tend to feel that Palpatine was probably pretty sure he got this. Right up until the point where it turned out that he did not, in fact, got this.

Total confidence in his own supremacy and infallibility has always been Palpatine's character flaw. It ends up being what kills him in Episode VI, and it's what nearly kills him here. I imagine he was pretty sure he could hold off Windu and the others easily until Anakin arrived and saw him being attacked unfairly, no worries. And then it turned out that it wasn't that easy and it nearly gets him killed.

But then Anakin came into the room, and Palpatine seized on that opportunity with both hands.

Traab

2018-02-17, 02:57 PM

Another thought that popped into my head was. During his crawling moaning stage of the fight, its entirely likely palpatine planned to use the inevitable video from his security cameras of that part of the fight to show how the evil coup attempting jedi tried to murder a helpless crippled old man. Some careful editing could have pulled off a propaganda coup of the century. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if someone told me that this actually happened in the books afterwards. Remember, he had to convince the galaxy that the jedi were evil and deserved to be wiped out. How better than to show a high ranking member of the jedi council trying to murder him as he lay there helpless? Only escaping due to "pure luck" until his guards could protect him.

Metahuman1

2018-02-18, 02:40 AM

Windu and the masters went there to arrest him. There is no fight unless Palpatine wants a fight. If he is so outmatched by Windu and the others, why would he fight them? I think the plan was always seduce Anakin or kill Anakin and the Jedi that came with him to arrest him.
If the Jedi declare him a fugitive and take control of the Republic, Palpatine wins. He has them declared as traitors conducting a coup and he annihilates them. He already has a plan in place to do it.

Let's say the Jedi arrest him and he went quietly.

Now he's in jail, cut off from financial and political power, during the last stages of the war.

He's cut off from Anakin, Grievous is as good as dead, and with out him the separatist leadership is going to fold like a towel and he knows it. Particularly since Grievous and Dukoo are out of the picture now. And there's a real risk this is going to be a wake up call to Either Anakin, or too Yoda and the council. Either they are going to figure out what's up with Anakin and that they need to make some changes to accommodate that, as there own method of not falling almost in itself cause The Chosen One to fall, or, they expel him from the Order and he just goes off and starts doing his own thing. We know other former Jedi have gotten working light sabers running, no reason to think he wouldn't do exactly that, go into a military career and with his credentials, rise VERY rapidly, or else go pro bounty hunter and just be an above board bounty hunter whom can command a crazy amount of money because of his insane ability to preform.

Maul is useless and the moment the separatists cave, the republic are going to go deal with him at The Jedi's insistence, as a matter of not leaving any loose ends to bite them in the butt.

The Jedi now have the unfettered access to his records to prove he at least has been up to no good. Probably enough to prove he was playing both sides of the war since before the start. And that's all they need.

He can't implement Order 66, but if they find out about that the games up. They nearly did once in the last year or so already, we saw that in the lost episodes of Clone Wars. And if they do that further destroys him.

Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong. He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.

Both plans failed, but then Anakin got there, and he played up being helpless and pleading and managed to get Anakin to back him at the last moment, and bail him out.

And again, if Anakin had made a call or two or three for advice before heading out, the galaxy would have been a very different place.

Mechalich

2018-02-18, 03:10 AM

He's cut off from Anakin, Grievous is as good as dead, and with out him the separatist leadership is going to fold like a towel and he knows it.

Also, it is strongly implied that some members of said leadership, particularly Nute Gunray, have the goods to peg Palpatine as Sidious. Gunray would absolutely cut that deal in a nanosecond if given the chance.

Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong. He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.

I actually think Palpatine may have expected Anakin to stew on it for a bit longer. There's a case to be made that he expected General Grievous to kill Obi-Wan - he makes comments to this effect twice and Grievous came very close to accomplishing that particular feat. Had that happened not only would it have massively pushed Anakin towards the dark side it also probably would have resulted in another member of the High Council, potentially even Mace Windu, being dispatched to deal with Grievous instead. That would have downgraded the potential opposition in a final confrontation and made Anakin's presence much more likely. Also, if Grievous had lived and the Separatist cause gone on, Palpatine would have had considerably more room to maneuver in case the Jedi attempted to arrest him.

Palpatine's reveal to Anakin was going all-in. He was holding a very good hand when doing so - pocket aces for sure - and the Jedi were holding a bad one, but odds shift as the cards fall and they shifted briefly away from Palpatine before finally coming back around at the last moment.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-18, 09:25 AM

Let's say the Jedi arrest him and he went quietly.

Now he's in jail, cut off from financial and political power, during the last stages of the war.
Well, hang on now lol. The Jedi can't simply take over. I think this would be disastrous for the Jedi.

If Palpatine is going to go quietly, I don't think he'd reveal himself to Windu and the others. They only have Anakin's word to go on, they can't sense Sidious. So Palpatine gets arrested for...? Suspicion of being a Sith Lord? Having a high midichlorian count? How do they spin this move of barging into his office and arresting him with lightsabers blazing?

Windu tells him "The senate will decide your fate." Um, ok. What will you tell the senate Mace? "Anakin said Palpatine knows the ways of the Force, and he thinks he's the sith lord we've been looking for, so..."

Meanwhile, Palpatine loyalists will uncover the Jedi plot; Count Dooku never really left the Jedi Order. He was an operative acting out a grand conspiracy for the Jedi to take control of the Republic. The Jedi would use Dooku's Separatist movement to justify the creation of a Clone Army under their command. Working from both sides, Dooku and the Jedi would weaken the Republic's strength, while spreading their army out within its borders. Once in position, they will falsely accuse the Supreme Chancellor of treason and conspiracy, and instead of restoring power to the Senate, the Jedi will transfer over his emergency power to themselves, citing the presence of Sith as justification, and using their clone army to enforce their new rule.

Putting Palpatine in prison does not remove him from the game.

The Jedi now have the unfettered access to his records to prove he at least has been up to no good. Probably enough to prove he was playing both sides of the war since before the start. And that's all they need.
I think *if* Palpatine were the type of person to leave his plans for a secret take over of the Republic lying around his office, he'd probably encrypt them or program them to self-destruct or something along those lines. But that's the thing... there's Palpatine's persona and estate, and then there's the Sith "estate", handed down for thousands of years and added to by each successive master. So I'm skeptical they would find a lot from Palpatine's records.

He can't implement Order 66, but if they find out about that the games up. They nearly did once in the last year or so already, we saw that in the lost episodes of Clone Wars. And if they do that further destroys him.
*He* can't implement Order 66 from prison (presumably), but I'm sure Palpatine has contingencies for something along these lines. He has people loyal to him. If there's a contingency like "If the Jedi capture me, execute Order 66", it wouldn't even be that different from what we see in the movie. The Jedi make a move against "the Republic", and Palpatine uses his emergency powers to annihilate them.

Plan A was that Anakin would be with the masters, and he could convince him to fall and join him. Plan B was fight his way out and then figure out how to play the Anakin angle afterword's. He was always supremely overconfident and at this stage of the game he is fresh off killing his own master after all. No doubt he though he could do it. He was wrong.
It seems unfair to accuse him of "supreme overconfidence" without acknowledging what would lead him to be confident in the first place, which is the fact that he is a master manipulator, strategist, tactician, and his cunning and foresight and planning have handed him the Republic on a silver platter.

In other words, you're saying he fumbled because he was overconfident, and I'm saying he's confident because his plans work as predicted.

He got bested by one of the 4 best duelists in the order at this stage of the game. The other 3 were Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin.
One of the best duelists in the order, yes. I think Palpatine is the supreme force user and lightsaber combatant in the galaxy. I don't think Windu is too much for him. Obi-wan says he can't beat Sidious, we see Yoda fail to defeat him, and we know Anakin can't because he hasn't reached his full power yet. I don't think Windu is the exception here.

Both plans failed, but then Anakin got there, and he played up being helpless and pleading and managed to get Anakin to back him at the last moment, and bail him out.
When Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, he is weak and at Anakin's mercy "Are you going to kill me?" he asks meekly. Does anyone here really think that Anakin could have killed Palpatine in this moment??

When he faces off against the Jedi masters he is angry, reveling in the fight, snarling. Why? To push Windu into making that disastrous call, "He's too powerful to keep alive."

When Anakin arrives, he is once again weak, and at Windu's mercy, "Don't let him kill me".

It's all a performance. Palpatine is playing everyone.

Also, when Anakin says "I'm handing you over to the council", Palpatine says "... but you're not sure of their intentions." and Anakin says "I will discover the truth in all this." Palpatine replies "You have great wisdom, Anakin."

The truth Anakin discovers is the truth Palpatine is leading him to; the Jedi are evil and trying to take over. What's the proof? Mace Windu taking the power of the Senate into his own hands and attempting to execute the Supreme Chancellor, who is begging for his life.

We see the setup and the execution. Flawless victory.

And again, if Anakin had made a call or two or three for advice before heading out, the galaxy would have been a very different place.
Nah. Mace Windu had Palpatine unarmed, sure. That doesn't translate to victory/fight over. Remember when Obi-wan was disarmed and dangling in a shaft with a "victorious" Darth Maul looming over him? Was that fight over? Sure looked like it right? But these people have the Force. So... Obi-wan actually wins that fight.

The fight between Windu and Palpatine was far from over despite appearances. If Palpatine intended to simply stop/kill Windu, he could have. Even if we disagree on whether he would have succeeded or not, I think we can all agree that Palpatine could have Force Pushed Windu away, or throw furniture at him, or slip out of the window and land on a speeder below. The idea that Palpatine was defeated because he lost his lightsaber and Windu had him against the wall is preposterous to me.

Strigon

2018-02-18, 10:04 AM

First off, I'd like to say that I'm confident Windu won - though that had always been Palpatine's plan. There's been some discussion about how Palpatine fought Yoda, and how it looked completely different, with the argument that that's what it would look like if Palpatine were trying. That completely ignores the fact that Yoda also primarily uses The Force, so both were keeping a significant distance by mutual agreement. Mace Windu is specialized in his lightsaber, and he's fighting in very confined spaces, relatively speaking. Sure, in the open air where Palpatine fought Yoda it might look different, but the arena definitely forces them to engage in close combat, which is Mace's wheelhouse. Palpatine's a great duelist, no doubt, but if he needs his lightsaber something has usually gone horribly wrong. In this case, I'm sure he planned the whole fight well in advance, including his defeat, but that doesn't mean it wasn't genuine.

Besides, I'm not too sure Palpatine is capable of holding back. Not without Windu knowing it, at least. Windu fed off the dark side energy Palpatine was using, which means Palpatine was definitely using the Dark Side, and quite a lot of it. As we all know, channeling the Dark Side is a matter of giving in to your passions, which is mutually exclusive with being restrained and losing deliberately. If he weren't giving it his all, Mace Windu would feel that.

And, as far as "suddenly becoming all powerful" goes, he used Force Lightning. Let's not pretend he did anything particularly crazy with it, either; he killed an unarmed man.* As mentioned before, the Dark Side feeds off of emotions; getting trounced by Windu would probably make him very angry, indeed. Plus, even if he lost, there's no reason he couldn't still play up his "weakness" in front of Anakin.

I never found Windu to be a badass, by the way. I think that that's what the marketing wants you to believe. In the movies, he looks like a guy who just woke up, has no distinctive character, and occasionally chops people up. So, you know, your standard, unnamed, cookie-cutter Jedi.
The movies do a terrible job with showing it, but he is more or less the best warrior out of all the jedi. Certainly the best duelist.

Sure, but you can't tell me someone like Windu wouldn't be effective against droids too.
Actually, that's exactly true. Mace Windu wouldn't be as good against droids as, say, Obi-Wan. With droids, all you have to do is not get shot while you close in. That means the number one concern is how good your defense is; in the case of Mace Windu, it's his weakest point. He's still very good at it, but not as good as his offense. An average jedi with his style would be very ineffective against droids - especially considering they have no emotions to feed off of.

Which leads us to another problem; we have no idea what the "average" jedi knight can do. We only ever see the Chosen One and three particularly powerful Jedi Masters. That's always bothered me.

*Yeah, yeah, har-dee-dar.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-18, 10:34 AM

First off, I'd like to say that I'm confident Windu won - though that had always been Palpatine's plan. There's been some discussion about how Palpatine fought Yoda, and how it looked completely different, with the argument that that's what it would look like if Palpatine were trying. That completely ignores the fact that Yoda also primarily uses The Force, so both were keeping a significant distance by mutual agreement. Mace Windu is specialized in his lightsaber, and he's fighting in very confined spaces, relatively speaking. Sure, in the open air where Palpatine fought Yoda it might look different, but the arena definitely forces them to engage in close combat, which is Mace's wheelhouse. Palpatine's a great duelist, no doubt, but if he needs his lightsaber something has usually gone horribly wrong. In this case, I'm sure he planned the whole fight well in advance, including his defeat, but that doesn't mean it wasn't genuine.
There is no mutual agreement. And he does engage Yoda in a duel of lightsabers. It goes Force Push-->Force Lightning-->Lightsaber Duel-->Telekinesis-->Force Lightning-->Yoda gives up.

There's no reason he can't use the Force against Windu in their fight. Kenobi and Maul are practically kissing when Maul uses Force Push against him, so space constraints don't really matter.

Besides, I'm not too sure Palpatine is capable of holding back. Not without Windu knowing it, at least. Windu fed off the dark side energy Palpatine was using, which means Palpatine was definitely using the Dark Side, and quite a lot of it. As we all know, channeling the Dark Side is a matter of giving in to your passions, which is mutually exclusive with being restrained and losing deliberately. If he weren't giving it his all, Mace Windu would feel that.
Is this from the novelization? Because in the novelization it's implied that Windu doesn't know what he's feeling. He thinks Palpatine is afraid, and Palpatine says something along the lines of "Fool, you think that's my fear you sense?!", implying that the fear is Anakin's and Windu is confused.

And, I don't know what Mace can and can't feel, given that the dark lord of the Sith has been beside him all this time and he didn't know it, but I wouldn't put it past Windu to know Palpatine is up to something. He certainly knows Palpatine is capable of great deception, given that he goes from unassuming chancellor to Jedi Master slayer in all of three seconds, and then to mewling wretch the second Anakin shows up. So I'd wager Windu knows something is up and that informs his decision to kill him.

And, as far as "suddenly becoming all powerful" goes, he used Force Lightning. Let's not pretend he did anything particularly crazy with it, either; he killed an unarmed man.* As mentioned before, the Dark Side feeds off of emotions; getting trounced by Windu would probably make him very angry, indeed. Plus, even if he lost, there's no reason he couldn't still play up his "weakness" in front of Anakin.
Windu didn't trounce anyone lol. Windu disarmed him and Palpatine falls on his own volition and "gives up".

It's true he could still play up his weakness even if he genuinely lost. The assertion is that losing in this way was always the plan though. He reveals himself to Anakin, but reveals himself as someone at the mercy of the Jedi. Then he goes all out against Windu, murdering three of his colleagues in an instant. Then he returns to being at the mercy of the Jedi again the instant before Anakin steps into the office.

The point is that the guy losing to and cowering before Windu is not real. It's a deception. The guy screaming "Unlimited powaaaah!" and blasting Windu out of the window is the real Palpatine/Sidious.

*Yeah, yeah, har-dee-dar.
I laughed :smallamused:

Keltest

2018-02-18, 10:34 AM

personally, I'm pretty sure Mace had Palpatine at his mercy. The scene doesn't work well if Mace isn't a legitimate threat to Palpatine, and Anakin's fall loses meaning if Palpatine could just have crushed Mace and taken over without his help.

Furthermore it would imply that the Dark Side really is just plain out stronger than the light, if Palpatine can be caught somewhat flat footed and still trounce four of the strongest jedi alive.

hamishspence

2018-02-18, 10:37 AM

"I must say you're here sooner than expected"

"It's treason then"

Neither of those fit with "flat-footed" - he's the one initiating the fight, after all.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-18, 10:49 AM

I don't own the PT on blu-ray (or in any form for that matter). But this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSVRInt_k0Y) claims that Lucas says in the commentary that Palpatine's loss to Windu was not a ploy and he, in fact, was overwhelmed by Windu's ability.

If that's the case, I'm wrong :smallfrown:.

hamishspence

2018-02-18, 11:00 AM

The bit of commentary in question (found after a little googling):

"Okay, well, this sequence uh always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he, he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers.”

There's still a certain amount of online debate over whether "Mace overpowering Palpatine" can be treated as "Palpatine legimately lost" or "this is what Palpatine intended it to look like to the watcher - the approaching Anakin".

Dragonexx

2018-02-18, 11:12 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thsFbDtLrVg&t=939s

ArlEammon

2018-02-18, 11:18 AM

I genuinely believe that Mace could curb stomp Sidious with a lightsaber, but was inferior in the Force.

Palpatine could not defeat Mace Windu but I think he knew Anakin would stop him. There was some level of manipulation going on, for sure.

Keltest

2018-02-18, 11:18 AM

ArlEammon

2018-02-18, 11:21 AM

I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. Can Palpatine not be losing and just gambling on Anakin showing up and intervening before Mace can finish him?

Palpatine was superior in the Force, but Mace Windu was just too good a duelist. So I think Palpatine sensed Anakin coming along to prevent the execution.

Strigon

2018-02-18, 11:23 AM

There is no mutual agreement. And he does engage Yoda in a duel of lightsabers. It goes Force Push-->Force Lightning-->Lightsaber Duel-->Telekinesis-->Force Lightning-->Yoda gives up.

There's no reason he can't use the Force against Windu in their fight. Kenobi and Maul are practically kissing when Maul uses Force Push against him, so space constraints don't really matter.

Are we watching the same scene? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu3qoIsGzUM) Both of them seem much more comfortable at a distance, and only close in when it's necessary or when they're pressing an advantage.
Plus, there absolutely are reasons he can't use the Force; every time someone does so, they wave their hand in a very open way. When you're fighting one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy, in a confined space, how do you do that without losing your hand? There are a couple lulls in the fight where you could make an argument, but for the most part they're locked in close combat.
As an aside, I'd also like to note that Yoda should have won that; the only reason he lost was that he was sent flying backwards further, likely because he's lighter. In terms of Force power, it looks like he was winning.

Is this from the novelization? Because in the novelization it's implied that Windu doesn't know what he's feeling. He thinks Palpatine is afraid, and Palpatine says something along the lines of "Fool, you think that's my fear you sense?!", implying that the fear is Anakin's and Windu is confused.

And, I don't know what Mace can and can't feel, given that the dark lord of the Sith has been beside him all this time and he didn't know it, but I wouldn't put it past Windu to know Palpatine is up to something. He certainly knows Palpatine is capable of great deception, given that he goes from unassuming chancellor to Jedi Master slayer in all of three seconds, and then to mewling wretch the second Anakin shows up. So I'd wager Windu knows something is up and that informs his decision to kill him.

Yes, it is from the novel, but I think you misunderstood.
From what I recall, Mace Windu somehow channels his opponent's dark side energy through himself to duel. Which means if Sidious weren't invested in the duel, he wouldn't be giving Mace Windu that fuel, and he would sense the lack of power. Not because he can sense Palpatine's thoughts, but because he can tell how much power he, himself has.

Windu didn't trounce anyone lol. Windu disarmed him and Palpatine falls on his own volition and "gives up".

It's true he could still play up his weakness even if he genuinely lost. The assertion is that losing in this way was always the plan though. He reveals himself to Anakin, but reveals himself as someone at the mercy of the Jedi. Then he goes all out against Windu, murdering three of his colleagues in an instant. Then he returns to being at the mercy of the Jedi again the instant before Anakin steps into the office.

The point is that the guy losing to and cowering before Windu is not real. It's a deception. The guy screaming "Unlimited powaaaah!" and blasting Windu out of the window is the real Palpatine/Sidious.

I laughed :smallamused:

I mean, he did sort of get trounced. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4)
He kills three jedi in a few seconds, then you see him appearing to toy with Mace Windu. If you watch, though, he very clearly gets more and more desperate by the end. Maybe losing his lightsaber was the plan (though I doubt it; they're very personal devices), but either way he was losing by the end. Maybe he could've held on to the lightsaber, but he would have eventually lost.

Also, what's with the three supposed "Masters"? My memory told me he did a flip towards them, surprised them all, cut one of them down midair and then another immediately after.
What really happened was he did a flip towards them, landed while none of them reacted, then very casually stabbed directly into one of them. There is literally no move to defend himself on the part of the stabbee, and none of the other Jedi cut Sidious down while he's spending like three whole seconds exposed? Seriously, watch that scene; it's ridiculous.

hamishspence

2018-02-18, 11:24 AM

It's possible. Mace is still saying "you are under arrest" after Palpatine is disarmed. Anakin is, however, entering the room at the time.

The question is - is it more in character for Palpatine, sensing an approaching Anakin, to let Mace disarm him - or is it more in character for him to duel Mace as hard as he possibly can (yet still lose)?

Peelee

2018-02-18, 11:24 AM

" it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers.”

Man, I really hate when people claim "this is clear" when they themselves didn't make it clear at all.

ArlEammon

2018-02-18, 11:26 AM

Are we watching the same scene? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu3qoIsGzUM) Both of them seem much more comfortable at a distance, and only close in when it's necessary or when they're pressing an advantage.
Plus, there absolutely are reasons he can't use the Force; every time someone does so, they wave their hand in a very open way. When you're fighting one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy, in a confined space, how do you do that without losing your hand? There are a couple lulls in the fight where you could make an argument, but for the most part they're locked in close combat.
As an aside, I'd also like to note that Yoda should have won that; the only reason he lost was that he was sent flying backwards further, likely because he's lighter. In terms of Force power, it looks like he was winning.

Yes, it is from the novel, but I think you misunderstood.
From what I recall, Mace Windu somehow channels his opponent's dark side energy through himself to duel. Which means if Sidious weren't invested in the duel, he wouldn't be giving Mace Windu that fuel, and he would sense the lack of power. Not because he can sense Palpatine's thoughts, but because he can tell how much power he, himself has.

I mean, he did sort of get trounced. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4)
He kills three jedi in a few seconds, then you see him appearing to toy with Mace Windu. If you watch, though, he very clearly gets more and more desperate by the end. Maybe losing his lightsaber was the plan (though I doubt it; they're very personal devices), but either way he was losing by the end. Maybe he could've held on to the lightsaber, but he would have eventually lost.

Also, what's with the three supposed "Masters"? My memory told me he did a flip towards them, surprised them all, cut one of them down midair and then another immediately after.
What really happened was he did a flip towards them, landed while none of them reacted, then very casually stabbed directly into one of them. There is literally no move to defend himself on the part of the stabbee, and none of the other Jedi cut Sidious down while he's spending like three whole seconds exposed? Seriously, watch that scene; it's ridiculous.

The EU explains clearly that Palpatine was overhelming them all in The Force, and clouding their senses. If he wasn't capable of that, he would have been escorted to the Senate in handcuffs, or killed.

hamishspence

2018-02-18, 11:27 AM

Man, I really hate when people claim "this is clear" when they themselves didn't make it clear at all.

Palpatine did reiterate "I have the power to save the one you love" before cutting out the zapping.

Peelee

2018-02-18, 11:31 AM

Palpatine did reiterate "I have the power to save the one you love" before cutting out the zapping.

Yeah, but why would he give up that information if he was under trial? It's not like that would save him from any charges pressed against him, it's no legal defense for anything. There's no reason to think, "Anakin believed he can get the information if Palpatine is arrested and interrogated." That long just reinforces that Anakin doesn't want him dead.

Keltest

2018-02-18, 11:41 AM

Yeah, but why would he give up that information if he was under trial? It's not like that would save him from any charges pressed against him, it's no legal defense for anything. There's no reason to think, "Anakin believed he can get the information if Palpatine is arrested and interrogated." That long just reinforces that Anakin doesn't want him dead.

I believe the important takeaway here is less "Anakin wants him arrested" and more "Anakin wants him alive". He doesn't necessarily care if Palatine is free, or in jail, or executed after trial, as long as he has the time to get what he wants out of him.

hamishspence

2018-02-18, 11:43 AM

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-18, 11:50 AM

Are we watching the same scene? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu3qoIsGzUM) Both of them seem much more comfortable at a distance, and only close in when it's necessary or when they're pressing an advantage.
I’m not sure which point you’re arguing against. That there’s a mutual agreement? Where do you see this?

Yoda is completely unphased by Sidious’ sith lightning. He gets hit full on and shrugs it off. Sidious is completely unharmed by Yoda’s force push. Yoda closes on him immediately and they resort to sabers without hesitation. There’s no discomfort.

Let’s not overstate that they’re force masters. They are both also masters at lightsaber combat.

Plus, there absolutely are reasons he can't use the Force; every time someone does so, they wave their hand in a very open way. When you're fighting one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy, in a confined space, how do you do that without losing your hand?
Ask Darth Maul.

There are a couple lulls in the fight where you could make an argument, but for the most part they're locked in close combat.
When Windu pulls his arm all the way back beyond his head to execute Palpatine, do you think Palpatine could have thrown a Force Push his way?

Yes, it is from the novel, but I think you misunderstood.
Mace can’t detect the Sith Lord throughout the PT. Mace also thinks he is sensing Palpatine’s fear when he is actually sensing Anakon’s fear. So I’m not leaping to draw conclusions from what Mace might have sensed if Palpatine was holding back.

From what I recall, Mace Windu somehow channels his opponent's dark side energy through himself to duel. Which means if Sidious weren't invested in the duel, he wouldn't be giving Mace Windu that fuel, and he would sense the lack of power. Not because he can sense Palpatine's thoughts, but because he can tell how much power he, himself has.
I just don’t think that Mace knows how much power to expect, so I don’t see how he knows Sidious is holding back. By what metric does he know that?

I don’t buy that if Palpatine is using the dark side he must be going all out.

I mean, he did sort of get trounced. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4)
Kylo got trounced by Rey in TFA after she connected to the Force, or whatever happened there. That’s a trouncing. She completely dominated that fight.

That is not at all what we see happen in the fight between Windu and Palpatine.

Peelee

2018-02-18, 11:51 AM

I believe the important takeaway here is less "Anakin wants him arrested" and more "Anakin wants him alive". He doesn't necessarily care if Palatine is free, or in jail, or executed after trial, as long as he has the time to get what he wants out of him.

The idea is that by just saying "He must stand trial" instead of attacking Mace immediately, is that Anakin has not yet committed himself to the Sith Way - he wants Palpatine's secrets, but he hasn't "turned".

I wholly agree. Hence:

" it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers.”
Man, I really hate when people claim "this is clear" when they themselves didn't make it clear at all.

Sapphire Guard

2018-02-18, 11:53 AM

There are good arguments either way.

In Yoda/Palpatine, it looks like Yoda is constantly trying to close, but Palpatine wants to stay at range.

Re choreography, I think it's probably difficult to choreograph a fight between Jedi masters all wearing all those prostethics (or possibly CG, I don't remember) and Ian McDiarmid in his 70s.

I think Palpatine certainly wasn't as weak as he pretended to be, but I don't know if he was in complete control either.

Keltest

2018-02-18, 12:32 PM

I wholly agree. Hence:

I... guess I don't understand. Anakin wants Palpatine to live, so he can learn the secrets he needs to save Padme. That seems clear enough to me. What seems unclear to you? That he wants him to go to trial? I mean, there isn't really any other circumstance where Mace lets Palpatine live at this point.

Peelee

2018-02-18, 01:04 PM

I... guess I don't understand. Anakin wants Palpatine to live, so he can learn the secrets he needs to save Padme. That seems clear enough to me. What seems unclear to you? That he wants him to go to trial? I mean, there isn't really any other circumstance where Mace lets Palpatine live at this point.

It may just be me, but I see "I can't let him die and his knowledge be lost" and "I can interrogate him while under trial" as very different things.

Keltest

2018-02-18, 01:27 PM

It may just be me, but I see "I can't let him die and his knowledge be lost" and "I can interrogate him while under trial" as very different things.

I mean sure, it would be harder than getting Palpatine to teach him willingly, but I think we can safely say that isn't an option Mace Windu is willing to entertain at that juncture.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-18, 09:31 PM

The idea is that by just saying "He must stand trial" instead of attacking Mace immediately, is that Anakin has not yet committed himself to the Sith Way - he wants Palpatine's secrets, but he hasn't "turned".
I take it kind of this way, but a little more like Anakin is probing for the truth. As he says earlier, he will discover the truth behind everything, including the intentions of the Jedi. So the first thing he says is "He must stand trial". Mace should agree with this reflexively as a defender of the Republic. But Mace dismisses it out of hand "He's too powerful". So Anakin appeals to Mace's sense of tradition and loyalty to the order, "It's not the Jedi way". This, again, should make Mace stop in his tracks. After all, Mace has been the most outspoken master on the council about taking in Anakin and training him and granting him a place on the council. But once again, Mace ignores this plea.

Anakin's expression in this scene, to me at least, doesn't look like someone that thinks Mace is really going to do the right thing. He's kind of more going through the motions while Mace reveals himself as a hypocrite and lacking the principles a Jedi is supposed to have, so that Anakin can finally say "look, I need this dude alive so back off or... whoops, there goes your arm". He doesn't have the authority or rank to tell Windu to back off, but his demeanor is practically screaming "I won't let this happen".

As far as Anakin learning the secrets from Palpatine if Palpatine were arrested... I'd guess in that alternate timeline, the council would try to keep Palpatine in solitary, and especially keep Anakin away. But Anakin would find a way to communicate with Palpatine, and would probably be convinced to either speak on his behalf against the Jedi or break him out or something along those lines. It's the only way to save Padme.

Mechalich

2018-02-18, 10:56 PM

I take it kind of this way, but a little more like Anakin is probing for the truth. As he says earlier, he will discover the truth behind everything, including the intentions of the Jedi. So the first thing he says is "He must stand trial". Mace should agree with this reflexively as a defender of the Republic. But Mace dismisses it out of hand "He's too powerful". So Anakin appeals to Mace's sense of tradition and loyalty to the order, "It's not the Jedi way". This, again, should make Mace stop in his tracks. After all, Mace has been the most outspoken master on the council about taking in Anakin and training him and granting him a place on the council. But once again, Mace ignores this plea.

Mace Windu's reaction in the scene is very strange. Before lightsabers are drawn he specifically says 'The Senate will decide your fate' only to reject this possibility after the fight. Since the only thing that changed in the interim is that Mace lost three long time colleagues and presumably good friends the only real justification here is that Mace Windu's emotions have gotten the better of him. Anakin's initial objections are indeed correct, hypocritical perhaps, but correct. This really weakens the scene, which has already been several damaged by the bad fight choreography (by far the weakest fight scene in the whole film). Ultimately the whole sequence is one of the worst scenes in the movie, which is really apparent given that it is followed by 'Execute Order 66' which is the best sequence in the whole PT.

As far as Anakin learning the secrets from Palpatine if Palpatine were arrested... I'd guess in that alternate timeline, the council would try to keep Palpatine in solitary, and especially keep Anakin away. But Anakin would find a way to communicate with Palpatine, and would probably be convinced to either speak on his behalf against the Jedi or break him out or something along those lines. It's the only way to save Padme.

In a scenario where Palpatine were to stand trial there are so many questions. It would depend on both how much evidence the Jedi could muster and how many favors Palpatine could call in. It's entirely possible he would be acquitted of any substantial charges so long as the Separatist leadership didn't spill the beans. Of course, no matter what he would lose his status as Supreme Chancellor. It is a highly important but severely neglected plot point that Palpatine is pulling a fairly classic would-be-dictator move with regard to suspending term limits for the duration of a 'state of emergency.' Obi-Wan makes this point to Anakin but it is not elaborated upon. This is the key reason why Mace was planning to confront Palpatine anyway, before Anakin reveals him to be a Sith Lord. The determination of the Jedi Order was to force Palpatine to step down the minute the emergency ended - which was pinned to the death of Grievous - and they apparently had allies in the Senate willing to support that maneuver.

factotum

2018-02-19, 02:48 AM

Ultimately the whole sequence is one of the worst scenes in the movie

Which is a big, big problem when this one scene is essentially what we've been building towards for two and a half films--this is the grand moment when Anakin Skywalker falls to the Dark Side, and it's bad. Doesn't make sense and feels rushed.

Clertar

2018-02-19, 04:43 AM

hamishspence

2018-02-19, 07:38 AM

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-19, 07:49 AM

Mace Windu's reaction in the scene is very strange. Before lightsabers are drawn he specifically says 'The Senate will decide your fate' only to reject this possibility after the fight. Since the only thing that changed in the interim is that Mace lost three long time colleagues and presumably good friends the only real justification here is that Mace Windu's emotions have gotten the better of him.
I think that's because before the fight, all he had to go on was Anakin's word. Mace is considered the greatest duelist in the order, and he's incredibly powerful in the Force as well, maybe second only to Yoda. He doesn't know how powerful this Sith lord is. At this point in the trilogy, they've defeated the strange apprentice on Naboo, they've defeated the traitor Dooku, and Obi-wan has just destroyed General Grievous.

Now they've found out who the sith lord is, and one of the most powerful Jedi of his time goes marching over there to confront him with three other masters at his side. They've killed the other Sith (and Grievous). They're going to arrest Palpatine and restore power to the Senate, easy peezy.

Except Palpatine kills the three masters in the blink of an eye, and seems to be keeping up with Mace until Mace gets the better of him. Then Mace feels the power of his Sith lightning and struggles to deflect it.

It's likely that Mace believes he and Yoda may be the only ones that can stop Palpatine in a fight, which is a tenuous position for the Jedi and the Republic to be in. Also, he knows Palpatine has been controlling both sides, since Maul, Dooku, and Grievous were on the Separatist side, which means Palpatine has allies and connections far and wide to manipulate the entire conflict. And finally, the Jedi answer to the Republic, and the Republic is under the control of their nemesis and greatest foe, which means they are in grave danger. Mace says as much when he leaves Anakin to arrest Palpatine, something like "We must move quickly if the Jedi are to survive". And we know Palpatine already has Order 66 in his pocket for just this reason.

This is before we consider the Shatterpoint ability. According to the book, the key to Palpatine's defeat was Anakin. This is *after* Mace has defeated him. That's odd and, once again, tenuous. And strange.

All to say I think Mace has plenty of reason to draw the conclusion that he did. But it doesn't come across well on screen.

Anakin's initial objections are indeed correct, hypocritical perhaps, but correct. This really weakens the scene, which has already been several damaged by the bad fight choreography (by far the weakest fight scene in the whole film). Ultimately the whole sequence is one of the worst scenes in the movie, which is really apparent given that it is followed by 'Execute Order 66' which is the best sequence in the whole PT.
Agreed that it's the worst :smallmad:.

In a scenario where Palpatine were to stand trial there are so many questions. It would depend on both how much evidence the Jedi could muster and how many favors Palpatine could call in. It's entirely possible he would be acquitted of any substantial charges so long as the Separatist leadership didn't spill the beans. Of course, no matter what he would lose his status as Supreme Chancellor.
The plan was always to paint the Jedi as traitors to the Republic, so I think were he to be acquitted (and I think something like this would happen), the move would be to turn the tables on the Jedi. And I could see him attempting to reinstate himself into power once again.

Vinyadan

2018-02-19, 07:53 AM

Anakin doesn't want Palpatine to receive due process, that's just a ruse. What he explicitly says is "I need him", and that's it. He only wants Mace to spare Palpatine, so that he can learn those Dark Side tricks for Padme.

Metahuman1

2018-02-19, 09:53 AM

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-19, 03:14 PM

This whole direction of the Jedi and the Force is just the worst. Mostly this superpower view of the dark side, there being a special type of Force that you need to be angry or afraid to tap into, wtf. It's completely non-canonical whenever you look at the OT --Darth Vader is calm, in control, scarily serene when he fights. The dark side is misusing the connection to the Force, just like Spider-man using his powers for his own benefit is selfish and pushes him towards moral corruption, or just like waterbending someone's blood in Avatar is a moral misuse of that hability. The Emperor uses the Force for his own advancement, and Anakin Skywalker ultimately did too, he stopped serving the Republic, he stopped being a servant of the Force for the greater good, and started using his Jedi enlightenment for selfish goals: he fell to the temptation of the dark side of the Force.

Well, for someone calm and in control, he surely was a little choke happy, and short tempered. To the point of Tarkin having to check on him to prevent losing half their troops in a week. I think you misundersood the point of the Dark Side being seductive and the idea that feeling too much leads to frustration; and frustration is mainly what makes a Jedi lose the path. Dark Side explicitly feeds from negative emotions in the expanded canon, but that never meant every Sith had to be a Kylo Ren. You can be calm while boiling rage. You can be glad and find glee in the bloodshed and fear your very presence causes. Those archetypes are the kind of Sith Vader and Palpatine are shown to be in the OT.

The scene that you guys are discussing here crystallizes all the problems that the PT introduced, we got an entire trilogy of fanfiction films to dissect every corner of the Force and being a Jedi. Some fantasy writers (the good ones, hands down) say things like if you need to explain the magic, it takes away the magic.

Tell that to Sanderson, lol. I agree on the fanfic part though. Other EU stories accomplished a better fleshing out of the mythos than the prequels did. Heck, the series managed better stories.

I enjoyed the mystical treatment of the force in TLJ for this reason. The Jedi finally stopped being priests of a superpower rulebook and went back to being mystical warriors, and the Force went back to being a mysterious thing that we only get glimpses of. I hope episode IX can still give us some Jedi amazement, and then we can move on to a much less Force-centered trilogy after that.

Whether you like it or not, OT was inspired from Westerns and Japanese movies. The cowboys are supposed to be the Hans and Leias of the film, but the Jedi were always supposed to represent the other half. Where there's a lot of philosophy and honor code and tradition involved. That's what the prequels tried to capture when building the Jedi Order. Whether the attempt was a failure had more to do with the execution than the core idea. The general idea was probably OK. Jedi as Arthurian warriors wouldn't make much sense, even in the context of the OT, methinks.

Clertar

2018-02-19, 04:17 PM

Vader [...] tells Luke "Release your anger - only your hatred can destroy me" - and Palpatine gloats when Luke uses hate in battle "Your hate has made you powerful".

Of course, they're trying to make Luke fall away from walking the right side by succumbing to dispair, fear, hatred... and using the Force in a deviant way. They're the bad guys: you think they're telling him the whole truth of their power cause they're so cool? :smallwink: They're tempting Luke so as to make him fall to the dark side.

Lethologica

2018-02-19, 06:31 PM

Of course, they're trying to make Luke fall away from walking the right side by succumbing to dispair, fear, hatred... and using the Force in a deviant way. They're the bad guys: you think they're telling him the whole truth of their power cause they're so cool? :smallwink: They're tempting Luke so as to make him fall to the dark side.
When Yoda and Palpatine agree on the role of negative emotions in the dark side, it takes a certain amount of creativity to disagree.

Traab

2018-02-19, 07:02 PM

Ya know, a thought just occurred to me. Sidious spilled the beans completely. He let slip what was going on, and the Jedi do have a long trail of documentation going back to the start of the clone wars, arguably before that even, that a Sith has been pulling strings to get the war started.

Outing himself on the security footage we canonically know was in that office for being the guy responsible for the whole war and resisting arrest would be all the grounds they'd need to make a conviction stick.

Bet he realized that too. He was just banking on Anakin backing him up to help cover it up.

You really think he doesnt have full control over his security feeds and where the recordings are held? 5 creds says that had the fight ended with palps on trial the video evidence would have showed 4 jedi storm into his room, draw their weapons, and threaten the chancellor, there would have been some "damaged" parts then next we would see what looks like mace torturing palpatine with energy from his lightsaber while he futiley holds his hands up in a desperate defense. And even if that didnt get believed its close enough to "reasonable doubt" for his supporters in power, of which he has many, to back him up. In the end the jedi would probably be more discredited than he was.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-19, 07:26 PM

Precisely. The Jedi are already in a very precarious situation when Sidious reveals himself to Anakin. He has been in control for a very long time, of both sides. They only just discovered him, because he revealed himself. My money is on Palpatine, whether he is arrested or not.

ereinion

2018-02-19, 09:38 PM

Tell that to Sanderson, lol.

Having seen how Sanderson finished the WoT series, I am not sure I'll agree he is a good fantasy author :smallannoyed:

Thrudd

2018-02-19, 11:22 PM

hell yeah, Mace had the Emperor. He was proper f-ed. I don't think Palpy planned on that whole thing happening, based on how he reacted when the jedi walked in. He thought he had Anakin already in the pocket and didn't expect him to go rat to the council. He would have called Anakin to the office, told him that the Jedi are staging a coup and the two of them are the Galaxy's only hope, and call order 66. Anakin storms the jedi temple at the head of a legion of troopers, with palps lurking behind, and hope that the numbers would be enough to take down the remaining masters. He certainly would not have wanted to risk going four on one against the toughest masters in the jedi order.

Also, Windu isn't dead. I don't care what George or anyone says. I'm not buying it until I see a body. He's too f'ing awesome for a little lightning to have knocked him out, and falling a long distance through a place full of things to grab onto or land on is an eminently survivable situation for a jedi master. He's out there somewhere, a grizzled one-armed wanderer with a nasty burn scar across his face and head, maybe one of his eyes is all white. He lives on the fringes, going from planet to planet righting wrongs and choking out mofos with his phantom force limb when they step to him. He's got no f's left to give about the republic or the empire or any of that BS - until a rebel general finds him on some jungle planet, getting into pit fights for money with four armed kick-boxing aliens.
general: "we need you back, Windu. The galaxy needs you."
and he says "I already gave the republic everything I had to give. This ain't my war. The people here...these are my people."
general: "these..."
a four armed female thing with a pregnant belly comes up to Windu : "Windu! Windu! You no hide from me! You say you pay but there is no pay!"
Windu:"Ok, I'm in. Let's get to that rendezvous point. Did you say it's Alderaan? "
general: "I didn't say..."
Windu: "sounds good, Alderaan it is. Where's your ship? never mind, I can sense it up over that ridge..."
Windu force-leaps away, flying into the distance, leaving the general staring, confused among a bunch of chattering aliens.

Metahuman1

2018-02-19, 11:41 PM

You really think he doesnt have full control over his security feeds and where the recordings are held? 5 creds says that had the fight ended with palps on trial the video evidence would have showed 4 jedi storm into his room, draw their weapons, and threaten the chancellor, there would have been some "damaged" parts then next we would see what looks like mace torturing palpatine with energy from his lightsaber while he futiley holds his hands up in a desperate defense. And even if that didnt get believed its close enough to "reasonable doubt" for his supporters in power, of which he has many, to back him up. In the end the jedi would probably be more discredited than he was.

I think if he got taken in the very first thing that would happen is they'd grab the footage before it was doctored. Which would mean there'd be an unedited confession to Anakin and an unedited initiation of the arrest were in we see him leaping like a jedi, armed with a light saber, and cutting down 3 masters.

On top of the mountain of evidence that a previously nameless Sith was behind everything going on that lead up too the clone wars, including the numerous issues with The Trade Federation, and numerous assassination attempts on a republic senator (Amadala.).

I also think by the time they took him to trial, they'd have had a chance to sedate him for awhile in holding and get unclouded enough to pin down were Newut Gunray and the rest of the separatists leadership was, and take them captive. And this time, there's no Sidious, Dukoo, Grevious or Ventress, Maul or Oppresss to save them, and no Vader to slaughter them.

And as mentioned. Catch them, they know what's up, and they'll fold like a towel and confess everything.

And now the Jedi have the boon of being able to claim credit for ending the war, and having all this documentation, video footage and all these other confessions that pin it on Palatine. And heck, with him not sending visions to Anakin anymore, he might not even have that cause, hey, if Anakin can see clearly for a little while, I'd give even chances that he's figure out Padme was only in danger because of Sidious.

Your the one's who captured or killed the entire enemy leadership in a matter of a few weeks, that's going to give you some noticeable public opinion boosting because the war is OVER!

And if they tell the Senate we are not taking over, you have to pick a leader, just please not one of this list of people were accusing of being associates, but otherwise just use your corruption procedures, well, now your not seizing power are you? You removed an official due to a mountain of evidence of doing things that are grounds for removal, but your not taking control.

Bale Organa or Amadala are rather popular, war hero's in there own right and widely known for tireless champions of the people for a long time at that point.

There going to have a rather good chance of leveraging things so that they can get one of them in the chancellor's chair, and dissolve the emergency powers.

So, yeah, assuming there not being clouded anymore and they finally have a clear picture to work with, I think the Jedi will do just fine making it stick.

hamishspence

2018-02-20, 01:53 AM

Psyren

2018-02-20, 01:03 PM

Does anyone actually have the RotS novel? That seems as good a method for clarifying that scene as any.

I like the idea of Palpatine setting things up so that either Vader or Windu would fall as the only outcomes, but we don't actually have any proof for that beyond Samuel L. Jackson looking constipated mid-fight.

Vinyadan

2018-02-20, 02:11 PM

I think that Palpa's line was meant to keep up some façade. He said that he expected them to come there later, because the Jedi were to show up after Grievous had been killed. Although it sure could have been a double entendre, and even said in a mocking tone.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-20, 02:15 PM

I don't think Palpy planned on that whole thing happening, based on how he reacted when the jedi walked in. He thought he had Anakin already in the pocket and didn't expect him to go rat to the council.

I never got that vibe.

I thought the "I must say you're here sooner than expected" sounded like the subtext was

"I expected Anakin to send you guys here - but not quite this quickly - I thought he'd spend a few hours agonising first"
Palpatine: Are you going to kill me?
Anakin: I would very much like to.
Palpatine: I know you would. I can feel your anger. *more dark side taunting*
Anakin: *realizes Palpatine is right, deactivates his lightsaber* I'm turning you over to the Jedi council.
Palpatine: Yes, as you should.

Palpatine definitely knew the Jedi were coming for him. Anakin told him he'd go get them. What Palpatine knows at the time that Anakin leaves is:

1. Anakin doesn't fully trust the Jedi.
2. Anakin's emotions are not fully under his control.
3. Anakin knows that Palpatine knows how to save Padme and is willing to help Anakin do it.

In light of the revelation that Lucas is depicting Windu defeating Palpatine soundly, I can't say that Palpatine was expecting to battle the Jedi right then and there after revealing himself to Anakin. I think the line "I must say you're here sooner than expected" is Palpatine being surprised that Windu literally arrived to arrest him on the word of Anakin alone. Even at this time, Windu doesn't trust Anakin. When he leaves Anakin he says something like "If things are as you say, then you will have earned my trust".

So what we have is Palpatine tells Anakin "I know the ways of the Force, including the dark side, and I can help you save Padme", and Anakin goes to Mace Windu and says "Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for", and then Windu immediately jets over to Palpatine's office with lightsabers ignited to arrest him.

If I had to work out what's going on in Palpatine's mind, I'd guess it's a mix of what Hamishspence is saying and what I'm saying. He probably expected Anakin to have to work through his a little longer, since Anakin is conflicted about the Jedi when he leaves Palpatine, and is also stung by Palpatine's revelation concerning Padme. I also think Palpatine probably didn't expect the Jedi to simply storm his chambers with no proof of anything ready to do battle.

Peelee

2018-02-20, 02:21 PM

Does anyone actually have the RotS novel? That seems as good a method for clarifying that scene as any.

Ten gold says hamishspence does. I damn near take his word as gospel truth when it comes to the Star War.

Xyril

2018-02-20, 03:03 PM

This whole direction of the Jedi and the Force is just the worst. Mostly this superpower view of the dark side, there being a special type of Force that you need to be angry or afraid to tap into, wtf. It's completely non-canonical whenever you look at the OT --Darth Vader is calm, in control, scarily serene when he fights.

First, you have been fortunate to avoid interacting with really angry folks. I have a friend who's gotten me into multiple unpleasant situations because he gets very angry and can't control his temper at all, but when he's really mad, he pretty much displays none of the stereotypical signs of anger. In fact, like Vader, he seems completely calm and collected, taking in the situation quietly, because that's how he was trained to be when he's ready for a fight, and if he gets to this point, there was going to be a fight, period. I have another friend who's trying to begin a political career--he was in UC in college, he's served on the staff of elected officials, now he's running for state assembly. He's mastered the art of controlling himself in public, because people generally don't like a politician who can't stop himself from picking a fight over every little slight. If someone offends him, he'll be all smiles and "sorry, probably my fault," or "it's a shame you think of me that way, hope I can change your opinion one day," and the next time we're in a semi-private setting with just close friends he'll obsess over that jerk. Especially if you get into the EU cannon, the distinction between light and dark side is often focused less on what actions you take, or how you behave while taking that action, but rather your motivation for making the decision to act to begin with. Whether you kill someone for petty revenge, as a means to an end, or as a last resort in order to defend an innocent person, is much more indicative of Light Side or Dark Side than whether you kill him in savage combat, howling like a berserker, or quietly dispatch him with the impassive face of a sociopath.

Darth Vader managed to largely avoid outward appearance of temper, but honestly, with a voice modulator, respirator mask, and zero way to see his face, how hard can that be. As others have mentioned, he was rather choke happy. Even if you make the argument that these were not acts of uncontrolled anger, but rather a cold, dispassionate decision intended to accomplish specific goals, I really don't think that screams Light Side either.

The scene that you guys are discussing here crystallizes all the problems that the PT introduced, we got an entire trilogy of fanfiction films to dissect every corner of the Force and being a Jedi. Some fantasy writers (the good ones, hands down) say things like if you need to explain the magic, it takes away the magic.

Other than midichlorians--*spits*--I actually have no issue with the prequels on this particular issue. Perhaps because I heavily read the EU books, I don't see anything in the prequels as "taking away from the mysticism" or "creating a superpower rulebook." The Jedi council has explicit, intractable doctrine because that's what happens when you have a millennia of institutional memory trying to fathom the unfathomable. The fact that Jedi policy is unambiguous and precisely detailed does not, in fact, mean that their understanding of the Force is equally unambiguous and precisely detailed.

In a lot of the early EU, Luke was worried that without the Jedi playbook, he would invariably go wrong, but over time, I generally got the sense that while the Jedi Council wasn't wrong in the broad strokes, precise adherence to their doctrines wasn't necessarily the correct path, let alone the only correct path. So when I watched the prequels, once I got finished being dismayed at Jar Jar Binks for so many different reasons, my first response wasn't "Hey, the Jedi Council seem to have a really deep understanding of the Force, that really takes the magic out of it." It was "Hey, the Jedi Council seem really overconfident in their understanding of the Force. Gee, I wonder if that will turn out to be at all related to what we all know will be happening within a few movies."

But midichlorians, yeah, that was terrible.

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-20, 03:13 PM

Having seen how Sanderson finished the WoT series, I am not sure I'll agree he is a good fantasy author :smallannoyed:

He is still very good at his sciencey-magic, and he is able to prevent sucking off all the thrill while at it. Besides, how does being involved in a series that isn't of your own creation affects how good an author is? That is like saying you think a music band is terrible because you didn't like the cover they made. Doesn't hold much water to me.

Palpatine: Are you going to kill me?
Anakin: I would very much like to.
Palpatine: I know you would. I can feel your anger. *more dark side taunting*
Anakin: *realizes Palpatine is right, deactivates his lightsaber* I'm turning you over to the Jedi council.
Palpatine: Yes, as you should.

Palpatine definitely knew the Jedi were coming for him. Anakin told him he'd go get them. What Palpatine knows at the time that Anakin leaves is:

1. Anakin doesn't fully trust the Jedi.
2. Anakin's emotions are not fully under his control.
3. Anakin knows that Palpatine knows how to save Padme and is willing to help Anakin do it.

In light of the revelation that Lucas is depicting Windu defeating Palpatine soundly, I can't say that Palpatine was expecting to battle the Jedi right then and there after revealing himself to Anakin. I think the line "I must say you're here sooner than expected" is Palpatine being surprised that Windu literally arrived to arrest him on the word of Anakin alone. Even at this time, Windu doesn't trust Anakin. When he leaves Anakin he says something like "If things are as you say, then you will have earned my trust".

So what we have is Palpatine tells Anakin "I know the ways of the Force, including the dark side, and I can help you save Padme", and Anakin goes to Mace Windu and says "Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for", and then Windu immediately jets over to Palpatine's office with lightsabers ignited to arrest him.

If I had to work out what's going on in Palpatine's mind, I'd guess it's a mix of what Hamishspence is saying and what I'm saying. He probably expected Anakin to have to work through his a little longer, since Anakin is conflicted about the Jedi when he leaves Palpatine, and is also stung by Palpatine's revelation concerning Padme. I also think Palpatine probably didn't expect the Jedi to simply storm his chambers with no proof of anything ready to do battle.

Along the same idea, my take of the whole scene is that Lucas tried to show how the dynamics worked from Anakin's perspective (and probably failed, but even then):

-The Chancellor, an old friend of yours, who confessed to your face his darkest secret. He wasn't angry, but seemed disappointed that you took it too harsh on him. And he even agreed you should do "the right thing".
-The grumpy Jedi Master, the main voice of the council that was always throwing sticks to your speeder and took every chance to speak of all your past mistakes and how ill suited for a Jedi lifestyle you have always been. He always treated you like an immature child instead of a prodigy; and tried to downplay your abilities in front of the other Masters. His face also smells like bantha poop.

The core idea here would be Palpatine taking advantage of all the knowledge he possesses about Anakin. There is no doubt that barring Obi-Wan; the only other Force User that knew Anakin on the most personal level was Palpatine. On the other hand, Mace always tried to keep the kid as far away as he could, and obviously didn't know how Anakin's mind worked; as is shown in his fateful line: "We can't let Palpatine live".

I don't know, for me it's pretty clear Palpatine's plan was running as expected. The whole point of clouding Anakin's mind was never really using him against the Jedi (he obviously didn't need him at all); but actually to prevent the Order to get their hands on the Chosen One. He feared Anakin for what he could become, if he received proper training. So he needed to remove the threat, either by sabotaging every attempt of progression to the right path (the visions, the manipulations, the pieces of Sith lore...) or by getting him against the Jedi and therefore kicked out or murdered. It wouldn't matter as long as he wasn't the one with the hands dirty, because otherwise his cover would have been compromised.

Now, whether Mace was better at playing with the stick, I think that is kinda obvious. Palpatine, according to the lore, always had low regards towards LS dueling. He was still above the average, but probably not a match for Windu or even Obi-Wan. But the point is, he (like Yoda) had a strong belief that the Force was stronger than everything a Force user could wield, even a lightsaber. It is unlikely he would have even try to engage with the most famous duelist of the time if he wasn't up to something else. Mainly, staging a play for Anakin. Sure, he probably played with some odds; but that doesn't mean he wasn't exactly where he wanted to. For me, "letting yourself to be defeated" by somebody, isn't the same as saying the other party had bested you in any way.

My take is that in a different context (readins as "Anakin is already out of the game"), the fight would have been totally different. What gives Palpatine the ultimate edge is that he saw them coming from parsecs across (while the Jedi couldn't detect him while standing to his face); and that no Jedi, not even Windu, ever faced a true Sith Lord and the full extent of Sith combat abilities. Sidious always had a huge advantage on the strategic game. Being unable to recognize an enemy, and being unaware of his capabilities is a sure recipe for total defeat.

hamishspence

2018-02-20, 03:19 PM

Ten gold says hamishspence does. I damn near take his word as gospel truth when it comes to the Star War.

Regarding Palpatine expecting the Jedi - he's got plenty of warning because he can sense them approaching:
The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy.
The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception.
In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air.
This, too, was good.
As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office; an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually percieve the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation.
Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium.
The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness—darkness beyond darkness—for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.
The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble.
The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device.
The neuranium got warm.
A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.
Then fresh blood.
Then open flame.
Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets.
The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve.
As shouts of the Force scattered Redrobes beyond the office's outer doors, the shadow gestured and lampdisks ignited. Another shout of the Force burst open the inner door to the private office. As Jedi stormed in, a final flick of the shadow's will triggered a recording device concealed within the desk.
Audio only.
"Why, Master Windu," said the shadow. "What a pleasant surprise."

Regarding the fight - the novel leaves it a little vague. The two are stalemated until Anakin turns up - then Palpatine suddenly starts losing. Mace thinks it's because Palpatine's afraid.

There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.
His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,” Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You’ve lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate.
"Fool," he said.
He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Psyren

2018-02-20, 03:38 PM

Ha! If only the movie version was that cool :smallbiggrin:

That last part ("Do you think the fear you feel is mine") leads me to believe that Palpatine knew what he was doing. If he was truly that afraid, I don't think he'd have the presence of mind to use it properly.

What about the part after the quote cuts off - the part where Sidious claims to be losing strength as the lightning reflects back at him, convincing Anakin to sever Windu's hand? I assume that part is from Anakin's perspective rather than Sidious or Windu though, which might keep it muddy, but there might be a clue there as to whether Sidious was genuinely crumbling, or faking it in a (successful) attempt to make Anakin a willing participant in his own downfall.

hamishspence

2018-02-20, 03:48 PM

What about the part after the quote cuts off - the part where Sidious claims to be losing strength as the lightning reflects back at him, convincing Anakin to sever Windu's hand? I assume that part is from Anakin's perspective rather than Sidious or Windu though, which might keep it muddy, but there might be a clue there as to whether Sidious was genuinely crumbling, or faking it in a (successful) attempt to make Anakin a willing participant in his own downfall.

It's mostly from Mace's perspective:
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It in a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that poured from his hands only intensified.
He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—
And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
"Destroy this traitor,” the Chancellor said, his voice raised over the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!”
That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith.
The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.
Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker. . .
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade, "Take him. It's your destiny."
Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny . . .”
"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—"
Mace's blade bent so ciose to his face that he was choking on ozone. " Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
"Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.
The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.
"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."
Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—'"
"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"
"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."
"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"
"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"
"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"
Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"
Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead."
He raised his lightsaber.
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!”
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor.
Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's.
Dark lightning blasted away his universe.
He fell forever.

though the junior novel does show it from Anakin's perspective:
“No!” Palpatine raised his hands. “You will die!” Blue Force lightning shot from his fingers toward Mace.
Anakin took an involuntary step forward. “He is a traitor, Anakin!” Palpatine cried as more lightning poured from his hands.
“He’s the traitor!” Mace said. He grimaced with the effort of repelling the lightning. “Stop him!”
Anakin’s head swiveled from one man to the other. The Force lightning was hurting Master Windu now, hurting him badly. But the Chancellor was aging before Anakin’s eyes. His hair thinned and his skin shriveled. Deep furrows appeared in his forehead. His hands twisted and turned gray-white. “Help me!” he cried. “I can’t hold on any longer.”
But Anakin stayed frozen. At last Palpatine collapsed, exhausted. “I give up,” he said in the whispery voice of an old, old man. “I am … I am too weak. Don’t kill me. I give up.”
Mace Windu pointed his lightsaber at the cringing Chancellor. “You Sith disease,” he snarled. “I am going to end this right now.”
“You can’t kill him, Master,” Anakin protested. “He must stand trial.”
“He has too much control over the Senate and the Courts,” Mace replied. “He is too dangerous to be kept alive.”
“It’s not the Jedi way.” But the Chancellor had said the same thing about Count Dooku. If Jedi Master and Sith Lord made the same argument, were they really so different? And I need him to save Padme.
But Master Windu wasn’t listening. He raised his lightsaber — and Anakin knocked it aside. The unexpected blow sent the lightsaber flying … and left Mace defenseless against a new bolt of Force lightning. Chancellor Palpatine was faking! He wasn’t tired at all.
Mace howled and retreated. “Power!” the Chancellor cried, and laughed. “Absolute power!”
Another wave of Force lightning struck Mace and slammed him backward, and back again, then it lifted him through the space where the window had been, high into the night sky — and then let him drop the hundreds of meters to the ground below. Anakin stared after him, horrified. “What have I done?” he whispered.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-20, 03:58 PM

That scene is followed by:

Palpatine stands and brushes his shoulder off, "A plan flawlessly executed".

hamishspence

2018-02-20, 04:16 PM

In the Stover novel, Anakin still has momentary qualms even after that:

Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain.
He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.
"What have I done?"
Was it his voice? It must have been. Because it was his question.
"What have I done?"
Another hand, a warm and human hand, laid itself softly on his shoulder.
"You're following your destiny, Anakin," said a familiar gentle voice. "The Jedi are traitors. You saved the Republic from their treachery. You can see that, can't you?"
"You were right," Anakin heard himself saying. "Why didn't I know?"
"You couldn't have. They cloaked themselves in deception, my boy. Because they feared your power, they could never trust you,"
Anakin stared at the hand, but he no longer saw it. "Obi-Wan—Obi-Wan trusts me ..."
"Not enough to tell you of their plot."
Treason echoed in his memory.
... this is not an assignment for the record ...
That warm and human hand gave his shoulder a warm and human squeeze. "I do not fear your power, Anakin, I embrace it. You are the greatest of the Jedi. You can be the greatest of the Sith. I believe that, Anakin. I believe in you. I trust you. I trust you. I trust you."
Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat.
The hand on his shoulder was human.
The face . . . wasn't.
The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast.
Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow.
Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.
"Now come inside," the darkness said.
After a moment, he did.

Anakin stood just within the office. Motionless.
Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy, "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve.”
He gestured, and a hidden compartment opened in the office's ceiling above his desk. A voluminous robe of heavy black-on-black brocade floated downward from it; Anakin felt the current in die Force that carried the robe to Palpatine's hand.
He remembered playing a Force game with a shuura fruit, sitting across a long table from Padme in the retreat by the lake on Naboo. He remembered telling her how grumpy Obi-Wan would be to see him use the Force so casually.
Palpatine seemed to catch his thought; he gave a yellow sidelong glance as the robe settled onto his shoulders.
"You must learn to cast off the petty restraints that the Jedi have tried to place upon your power," he said. "Anakin, it's time. I need you to help me restore order to the galaxy."
Anakin didn't respond.
Sidious said, "Join me. Pledge yourself to the Sith. Become my apprentice."
A wave of tingling started at the base of Anakin's skull and spread over his whole body in a slow-motion shockwave.
"I—I can't."
"Of course you can."
Anakin shook his head and found that the rest of him threatened to begin shaking as well. "I—came to save your life, sir. Not to betray my friends—"
Sidious snorted. "What friends?"
Anakin could find no answer.
"And do you think that task is finished, my boy?" Sidious seated himself on the corner of the desk, hands folded in his lap, the way he always had when offering Anakin fatherly advice; the misshapen mask of his face made the familiarity of his posture into something horrible. "Do you think that killing one traitor will end treason? Do you think the Jedi will ever stop until I am dead?"
Anakin stared at his hands. The left one was shaking. He hid it behind him.
"It's them or me, Anakin. Or perhaps I should put it more plainly: It's them or Padme."
Anakin made his right hand—his black-gloved hand of durasteel and electrodrivers—into a fist.
"It's just—it's not... easy, that's all. I have—I've been a Jedi for so long—"
Sidious offered an appalling smile. "There is a place within you, my boy, a place as briskly clean as ice on a mountaintop, cool and remote. Find that high place, and look down within yourself; breathe that clean, icy air as you regard your guilt and shame. Do not deny them; observe them. Take your horror in your hands and look at it. Examine it as a phenomenon. Smell it. Taste it. Come to know it as only you can, for it is yours, and it is precious."
As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them—if anything, they burned hotter than before—but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.
"You have found it, my boy: I can feel you there. That cold distance—that mountaintop within yourself—that is the first key to the power of the Sith."
Anakin opened his eyes and turned his gaze fully upon the grotesque features of Darth Sidious.
He didn't even blink.
As he looked upon that mask of corruption, the revulsion he felt was real, and it was powerful, and it was—
Interesting.
Anakin lifted his hand of durasteel and electrodrivers and cupped it, staring into its palm as though he held there the fear that had haunted his dreams for his whole life, and it was no larger than the piece of shuura he'd once stolen from Padme's plate.
On the mountain peak within himself, he weighed Padme's life against the Jedi Order.
It was no contest.
He said, "Yes."
"Yes to what, my boy?"
"Yes, I want your knowledge."
"Good. Good!"
"I want your power. I want the power to stop death."
"That power only my Master truly achieved, but together we will find it. The Force is strong with you, my boy. You can do anything."
"The Jedi betrayed you," Anakin said. "The Jedi betrayed both of us."
"As you say. Are you ready?"
"I am," he said, and meant it. "I give myself to you. I pledge myself to the ways of the Sith. Take me as your apprentice. Teach me. Lead me. Be my Master."

The junior novel keeps it short:

Anakin stared after him, horrified. "What have I done?" he whispered.
"You are fulfilling your destiny," Palpatine replied calmly. He looked different now, and sounded different. The aging was no illusion. But the difference made it easier for Anakin to be different himself. To say what he knew he had come to say.
"I will do whatever you ask," he told Palpatine. "Just help me save Padme's life." I can't live without her. I won't let her die.

Strigon

2018-02-20, 04:26 PM

Regarding the fight - the novel leaves it a little vague. The two are stalemated until Anakin turns up - then Palpatine suddenly starts losing. Mace thinks it's because Palpatine's afraid.
Snip

Reading that certainly doesn't give me any indication that Sidious was holding back. In particular, the bit where he tries to throw Windu out the window with a Force Push seems like a very risky thing to do if you were in control of the battle, and has no real reward offered.

That scene is followed by:

Palpatine stands and brushes his shoulder off, "A plan flawlessly executed".

If that's supposed to be an indication of Palpatine deliberately throwing the fight, I'd have to disagree. I think pretty much everyone agrees Palpatine wanted Anakin to find Windu ready to kill him; it's just a matter of whether Palpatine let him win, or if he knew that the best way to get Anakin to fall was to take that risk.
Besides, even if it wasn't flawlessly executed, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Sidious claim it was.

Frozen_Feet

2018-02-20, 04:41 PM

I saw it as a gamble, akin to a bluff in Poker. That is, Palpatine totally did all he could to get in the best possible situation regardless of which cards he or his opposition had. In this sense, everything was indeed according to plan.

But when Mace barged into his office, Mace called Palpatine's bluff and it was time to tip his hand. Now, I'm pretty sure Palpatine was keenly aware of what his cards were and that Palpatine had a pretty good hand, so he had a reasonable chance of winning despite this.

Enter Anakin.

I think how you interprete the scene depends on whether you see Anakin as just a play piece or another player. And I see Anakin as another player.

Now, whether you interprete Anakin as having had a bad hand, or having folded a good had, is sort of irrelevant. Either way, Palpatine won because Anakin lost. If Anakin had a pair of jacks or if Anakin had stayed in the game, Anakin would've won and by extension Mace would've won.

But Anakin didn't have a pair, he folded under the pressure, and hence Palpatine got to gloat about how his gample totally paid off.

I think it's worth noting that Palpatine in Return of Jedi, and later Snoke in the Last Jedi, both undertake a similar gamble, but those times the gambles don't go in their favor.

factotum

2018-02-21, 02:41 AM

As has been said already, Mace Windu's Vaapad style was specifically designed to combat Sith. Maybe that's where the spanner nearly got thrown into the works of Palpatine's plan? He dispatched the other three Jedi Masters without much trouble, but then had a lot more trouble with Windu than he was expecting and thus nearly lost.

hamishspence

2018-02-21, 08:16 AM

As has been said already, Mace Windu's Vaapad style was specifically designed to combat Sith.

Its immediate precursor, from which it was developed - "Juyo" - was used enough by the Sith that it got a reputation for being "a Sith style":

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII/Legends

Maybe the Sith specifically designed it to combat one another - an ex-Sith brought the style to the Jedi - and the Jedi worked on ways to use it without it corrupting them - with Mace being the last Jedi to refine the style, using "Vaapad" as his term for his own most refined variant?

pendell

2018-02-21, 08:43 AM

I have the novelization at home. So far as I recall, that section is from Anakin's and Maces' point of view. We don't really get any insight into the Emperor's thoughts or to what extent he was shamming; I think the Emperor is supposed to be a bit mysterious to everyone.

My own read is that , if this was a 1v1 standup fight, Palpatine would simply have gone "POW-A! UN-LIMIT-ED PO-WAAA!!!" a lot earlier, and simply overwhelmed Mace's defenses with force lightning.

I believe the only reason Mace was holding his own was because Palpatine was deliberately holding back, to put himself in the position of being "defenseless old man at Mace Windu's mercy" when Anakin walked in.

At this point, Palpatine took a risk, dropping his defenses and allowing himself to be at Mace's swordpoint. If Anakin, at that point, had stood by, then Mace would indeed have killed Palpatine.

Even if Palpatine defended himself, I think he would have lost against Anakin and Mace combined. Otherwise Anakin's actions have no meaning.

No, I think here, just as in Ep. VI, the light and dark was evenly balanced, and Anakin was the tipping point to decide between them. In Ep. III, he chose the dark. In Ep. VI, he chose the light.

The Emperor is powerful, but not invincible. I think he could have taken on any single master in the Order but would have had trouble against two of the most powerful. Against Yoda and Windu combined, I have no doubt he would lose -- which perhaps is one reason he instigated the clone wars in the first place, to spread the most powerful masters of the Order across the galaxy rather than having them all together on Coruscant when he revealed himself.

The Emperor's strength is as a chessmaster, his ability to perceive the future through the force. Because the galaxy was clouded, this enabled him to foresee clearly while the Jedi council acted as if they were blind children in a fog. But , being devoid of compassion and kindness himself , he is unable to foresee actions springing from that motivation. So sure was he in Episode VI that he had utterly crushed such emotions out of Vader, he was simply blind to the possibility that Vader would move to save his son , even at the cost of his own life.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 11:40 AM

My own read is that , if this was a 1v1 standup fight, Palpatine would simply have gone "POW-A! UN-LIMIT-ED PO-WAAA!!!" a lot earlier, and simply overwhelmed Mace's defenses with force lightning.

I believe the only reason Mace was holding his own was because Palpatine was deliberately holding back, to put himself in the position of being "defenseless old man at Mace Windu's mercy" when Anakin walked in.

Agreed.

At this point, Palpatine took a risk, dropping his defenses and allowing himself to be at Mace's swordpoint. If Anakin, at that point, had stood by, then Mace would indeed have killed Palpatine.

I don't think he took as much of a risk as it appears; he's too crafty to throw it all away on a single lightsaber fight, especially given his utter contempt for them in RotJ. I think that had Windu "slain" him that way,that it would have ended up being a bad outcome, like Windu falling and being possessed - similar to what could have happened had Luke done the same thing in VI.

Even if Palpatine defended himself, I think he would have lost against Anakin and Mace combined. Otherwise Anakin's actions have no meaning.

Anakin had a third option though, besides "assist in Mace's murder" and "do nothing / watch Palpatine die." Being fast enough to chop off Mace's hand means he was fast enough to simply interpose his lightsaber and stop Mace from slaughtering the Sith lord on the spot. They could have then taken Palps into custody and disposed of him via due process, without succumbing to anger or fear in doing so.

Lethologica

2018-02-21, 12:30 PM

I don't think he took as much of a risk as it appears; he's too crafty to throw it all away on a single lightsaber fight, especially given his utter contempt for them in RotJ. I think that had Windu "slain" him that way,that it would have ended up being a bad outcome, like Windu falling and being possessed - similar to what could have happened had Luke done the same thing in VI.
I don't see much indication anywhere in Palpatine's characterization that he was willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the dark side. He invites Luke to kill him in RotJ only because he knows that Vader will intercede. As far as I can tell, Palpatine dying and Mace turning evil would not be an acceptable outcome for Palpatine. And...possession? When was that ever in the cards?

Psyren

2018-02-21, 01:27 PM

I don't see much indication anywhere in Palpatine's characterization that he was willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the dark side. He invites Luke to kill him in RotJ only because he knows that Vader will intercede.

I don't think he was bluffing though. He genuinely wanted Luke to strike him down in anger. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNKwZTv1d0) Thus, I don't think that would have actually resulted in his demise.

As far as I can tell, Palpatine dying and Mace turning evil would not be an acceptable outcome for Palpatine. And...possession? When was that ever in the cards?

Why are you assuming he'd "die?" Jedi can persist after being struck down - what if the Sith version is even worse? What actually happens when you strike a Sith Lord down in anger anyway?

Honest question, I'm not an EU aficionado.

Keltest

2018-02-21, 01:48 PM

I don't think he was bluffing though. He genuinely wanted Luke to strike him down in anger. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNKwZTv1d0) Thus, I don't think that would have actually resulted in his demise.

Why are you assuming he'd "die?" Jedi can persist after being struck down - what if the Sith version is even worse? What actually happens when you strike a Sith Lord down in anger anyway?

Honest question, I'm not an EU aficionado.

The Sith Lord dies. Palpatine wanted Luke to attack him because it would mean Luke was falling to the Dark Side, which would open him to Palpatine's manipulations. Later works added that Palpatine had a bunch of specific contingencies set up that would return him to life, but that was entirely independent of the manner of his death. But at the time of the movie's release and for a while after, had Luke actually killed Palpatine there, it would have really sucked for Palpatine. Vader was completely correct when he said that he and Luke working together could overthrow the Emperor. Palpatine was counting on having one or the other on his side at all times.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 01:55 PM

The Sith Lord dies. Palpatine wanted Luke to attack him because it would mean Luke was falling to the Dark Side, which would open him to Palpatine's manipulations.

He didn't say "attack me" though. He said "strike me down" - much like Obi-Wan did in IV. I took that to mean he knew something Luke and Vader didn't. Whether that means striking him down would have been ineffective, or that Palpatine would die but Darth Luke would arise there to finish the Dark Side's overall job, isn't clear.

I'll wait for someone with EU knowledge to cite any previous examples of striking a Sith down in anger, and what the repercussions of that may have been.

Vinyadan

2018-02-21, 02:11 PM

pendell

2018-02-21, 02:38 PM

I don't think he was bluffing though. He genuinely wanted Luke to strike him down in anger. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNKwZTv1d0) Thus, I don't think that would have actually resulted in his demise.

Why are you assuming he'd "die?" Jedi can persist after being struck down - what if the Sith version is even worse? What actually happens when you strike a Sith Lord down in anger anyway?

Honest question, I'm not an EU aficionado.

That's not my read. I think the Emperor was goading Luke to attempt murder in anger , and thus fall to the Dark Side. In the film verse, if he had been struck down he would have died if he'd been hit by a lightsaber. This is made quite clear in the comic of Ep III -- and I think the novelization as well. To wit, survival as a force ghost (in the Lucas film-only canon universe) is something restricted to the light side. Dark Siders cannot attain it, because it requires a mindset utterly alien to the Dark Side.

No, the Emperor wanted Luke to attempt to kill him -- but I think he also had plans in place to ensure that no such attempt would succeed. Possibly he had foreseen that very event and was relying utterly on a force precognition that Vader would intercede.

If so .. then here, as in the prequels when he dropped his defenses in front of Mace, we can see that the Emperor at least has one virtue if he has no other: courage.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-21, 02:42 PM

Psyren, I take it as Sidious putting Luke on the path to the fall. Luke wants to save his friends, he wants to save his dad. Sidious holds their fates in his hands. One way to save them all is to kill him. Sidious is egging Luke on. If he can get Luke to try to kill him, knowing Vader will stop him, then Luke's goal now is to kill Sidious. This will make it easier for Luke to make the mistake of giving in to his negative emotions (fear for his friends, anger and hatred for Vader and the Emperor).

Luke's goal is to rescue his father and save his friends, but Sidious has him instead trying to get through Vader to kill him. It might seem like it would result in the same thing. But he went there to save his father and nearly ended up killing Vader instead.

Sidious is shifting Luke's aims to get him to fall to the dark side. Instead of appealing to his father, he ends up dueling him. Instead of convincing him to change sides, he's standing over him with his lightsaber ignited.

I don't think Sidious intended for Luke to actually strike him with down. I think that would result in his death. Obi-wan was killed when he was struck down, even if he persists as a ghost. Up until the incredible ground-breaking and visionary The Last Jedi, force ghosts didn't do much except talk. Nothing seems to indicate that Sidious would persist beyond death or that he wanted to be killed.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 03:30 PM

That's not my read. I think the Emperor was goading Luke to attempt murder in anger , and thus fall to the Dark Side.

I don't think Sidious intended for Luke to actually strike him with down.

I don't think we're going to agree on this then. I'll wait for hamish or someone else with better knowledge of the Dark Side to chime in.

Peelee

2018-02-21, 03:41 PM

hamish or someone else with better knowledge of the Dark Side

New headcanon: Hamish is a Sith Lord.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 04:02 PM

New headcanon: Hamish is a Sith Lord.

"Sith Archivist?" :smallbiggrin:

Keltest

2018-02-21, 04:53 PM

I don't think we're going to agree on this then. I'll wait for hamish or someone else with better knowledge of the Dark Side to chime in.

In Legends canon, Sideous already had a backup plan in case he died: a series of clone bodies he could inhabit via the Force. There are, very very rarely, other known cases of the spirits of powerful dark side users persisting after death, but theyre usually tied to some artifact, and generally unable to do anything on their own. Certainly they wouldn't consider that state to be an improvement over living.

Regardless, theres no special force technique that lets you survive being killed in anger, otherwise the sith wouldn't have a philosophy based around killing each other to earn their place as master, there would just be one Sith who knew the technique, and all his minions.

pendell

2018-02-21, 05:29 PM

It is settled; Hamishpence, by general acclamation you are now "Sith Archivist in the Playground". Perhaps we can get a custom title for you ? :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Peelee

2018-02-21, 05:52 PM

It is settled; Hamishpence, by general acclamation you are now "Sith Archivist in the Playground". Perhaps we can get a custom title for you ? :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

There's two bucks in it for you, mods. Possibly more after I do the laundry.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 08:12 PM

In Legends canon, Sideous already had a backup plan in case he died: a series of clone bodies he could inhabit via the Force.

I read that. No idea if it was meant to be canon prior to TFA setting the EU on fire, but it proves he really didn't care whether Luke killed him, so goading Luke there wasn't merely a bluff. (Or at the very least, it proves that the author of that canon felt the same misgivings I do, that Palps must have had a backup plan.)

Regardless, theres no special force technique that lets you survive being killed in anger, otherwise the sith wouldn't have a philosophy based around killing each other to earn their place as master, there would just be one Sith who knew the technique, and all his minions.

They're already angry, or they wouldn't be Sith in the first place, so there's reason to believe that doesn't apply to them. Anything they do is "in anger."

To use a D&D analogy - it's like being an evil cleric or a fiend, that gets the paladin to fall while taking him out. In both cases, his boss is going to be pretty happy about that. But fiends killing each other is nothing special.

Keltest

2018-02-21, 08:17 PM

I read that. No idea if it was meant to be canon prior to TFA setting the EU on fire, but it proves he really didn't care whether Luke killed him, so goading Luke there wasn't merely a bluff. (Or at the very least, it proves that the author of that canon felt the same misgivings I do, that Palps must have had a backup plan.)

They're already angry, or they wouldn't be Sith in the first place, so there's reason to believe that doesn't apply to them. Anything they do is "in anger."

To use a D&D analogy - it's like being an evil cleric or a fiend, that gets the paladin to fall while taking him out. In both cases, his boss is going to be pretty happy about that. But fiends killing each other is nothing special.

I don't understand your apprehension then. Being struck down in anger as opposed to serenity or regret wouldn't affect Palpatine's death in any way. It would affect Luke, deeply, even if he wasn't successful, which is what Palpatine was going for. But if the blow was successfully struck, Palpatine would be just as dead from it as if Yoda had killed him, or if he had been eaten by the Rancor, or if he broke his neck during his fall down the inexplicable shaft.

Vinyadan

2018-02-21, 08:25 PM

How was goading Luke not a bluff? Palpatine was successful in goading Luke, who did strike at him, only to be stopped by Darth Vader. Which is where the bluff lay: Palpatine was unarmed, but surely not undefended.

Lethologica

2018-02-21, 09:39 PM

I read that. No idea if it was meant to be canon prior to TFA setting the EU on fire, but it proves he really didn't care whether Luke killed him, so goading Luke there wasn't merely a bluff. (Or at the very least, it proves that the author of that canon felt the same misgivings I do, that Palps must have had a backup plan.)
"Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, but it was merely a ruse; Palpatine's fanfiction force-clones meant he wouldn't actually die" is a lot more similar to "Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, but it was merely a ruse; Vader's intervention meant Palpatine wouldn't actually die" than it is to "Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, and it wasn't a bluff, but Palpatine was okay with dying if it meant Luke would turn to the dark side."

Of course, the EU force-clone concept completely undermines any sense that Palpatine could ever in danger from anything ever, and is more akin to a fanboy min-maxer who thought Palpatine with Astral Projection would be omega kewl than to actual storytelling (or alternately that Palpatine was just too omega kewl to leave out of the post-OT universe), but that's a separate issue.

And no, EU fanfiction doesn't prove anything about Palpatine's intentions in the movie.

Mechalich

2018-02-21, 09:54 PM

Palpatine's clone bodies - which comes from the Dark Empire comics - are part of the Legends continuity canon (that's the one Disney blew up). However, prior to actually dying on the Death Star II Palpatine hadn't actually tested the clone concept (which turned out to come with a great many strings attached) and was in absolutely no hurry to do so. It was a fail safe, but not one he wanted to use if he didn't have to.

How was goading Luke not a bluff? Palpatine was successful in goading Luke, who did strike at him, only to be stopped by Darth Vader. Which is where the bluff lay: Palpatine was unarmed, but surely not undefended.

This is correct. Palpatine knew Vader would defend him from Luke's assault, which is of course what happened. He hoped that Luke would kill and thereby replace Vader as a superior servant (in the Legends EU it was later built up that Vader's cybernetics made him a less effective minion than Palpatine had hoped, and there were several efforts to put someone else in place), but if Vader one, or if Palpatine simply had to kill Luke himself he wasn't out anything particularly important. it was only in the situation where Vader sided with Luke that he could lose. That scenario relied on a spectacular act of self-sacrifice on Luke's part - throwing his lightsaber away and leaving himself utterly defenseless - which Palpatine was to in thrall to the dark side to even comprehend as a possibility. Of course, that's why it worked.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 09:59 PM

"Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, but it was merely a ruse; Palpatine's fanfiction force-clones meant he wouldn't actually die" is a lot more similar to "Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, but it was merely a ruse; Vader's intervention meant Palpatine wouldn't actually die" than it is to "Palpatine goaded Luke to strike him down, and it wasn't a bluff, but Palpatine was okay with dying if it meant Luke would turn to the dark side."

That's my whole point - he wasn't okay with dying. Which is why it would be prudent for "striking me down" and "me dying" to not be synonyms, which is exactly what that particular author came up with via the horcruxes clones.

The point being that, "kill me, lol u won't!" is a pretty stupid risk to take with no failsafe at all.
.

And no, EU fanfiction doesn't prove anything about Palpatine's intentions in the movie.

I completely agree. But neither does it prove that Luke killing him would have simply ended all threat then and there.

But if the blow was successfully struck, Palpatine would be just as dead from it as if Yoda had killed him, or if he had been eaten by the Rancor, or if he broke his neck during his fall down the inexplicable shaft.

If that's true then he's an utter imbecile for even taking the risk. Which is about what I'd expect from Lucas' writing, but I can still hope for more than that.

Keltest

2018-02-21, 10:14 PM

I mean, it obviously didn't pay off, but realistically Vader and Luke working together was the only way he could plausibly be harmed, and he (thought he) had Vader in his pocket. His plan was to set Luke and Vader against each other, and the survivor would be his apprentice.

Lethologica

2018-02-21, 10:22 PM

That's my whole point - he wasn't okay with dying. Which is why it would be prudent for "striking me down" and "me dying" to not be synonyms, which is exactly what that particular author came up with via the horcruxes clones.

The point being that, "kill me, lol u won't!" is a pretty stupid risk to take with no failsafe at all.
.

I completely agree. But neither does it prove that Luke killing him would have simply ended all threat then and there.

If that's true then he's an utter imbecile for even taking the risk. Which is about what I'd expect from Lucas' writing, but I can still hope for more than that.
"Your overconfidence is your weakness." Star Wars was never big on subtlety.

With that said, the force-clone idea is significantly worse writing. I don't know why you're hoping for the writing standards to go down, but you're free to do so.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 10:25 PM

With that said, the force-clone idea is significantly worse writing. I don't know why you're hoping for the writing standards to go down, but you're free to do so.

I'm not hoping for force-clones specifically. I'd be okay with any kind of backup plan beyond "he'll somehow Fall and join me mid-swing." It's idiotic.

Keltest

2018-02-21, 10:57 PM

I'm not hoping for force-clones specifically. I'd be okay with any kind of backup plan beyond "he'll somehow Fall and join me mid-swing." It's idiotic.

If he goads Luke into attacking him, Vader will intervene and block the strike. The two will fight, and either Luke will fall to the Dark Side, kill his father and then Palpatine bludgeons him into submission until he agrees to replace Vader, or Vader wins and Luke was never worth the effort in the first place. Luke winning without falling to the Dark Side wasn't something he really expected, and Vader then turning on him because of that was even further off his radar.

Palpatine isn't actually trying to get Luke to try and kill him, he wants to provoke a fight between Luke and Vader.

Psyren

2018-02-21, 11:51 PM

I
Palpatine isn't actually trying to get Luke to try and kill him, he wants to provoke a fight between Luke and Vader.

You mean the thing that happened anyway without the baiting being necessary? Sure.

Metahuman1

2018-02-22, 02:50 AM

He means the thing he baited every bit of the situation to create because it was necessary. By necessary, I mean canonically if he had not the situation never would have existed in the first place.

factotum

2018-02-22, 04:39 AM

You mean the thing that happened anyway without the baiting being necessary? Sure.

So you're saying that Luke would have tried to attack Palpatine without being baited into it? Because the fight between him and Vader started at the point he attacked Palpatine, and since his stated objective in getting captured in the first place was to get Vader to turn, it seems unlikely he would have just had a fight with him for the lulz.

Anteros

2018-02-22, 05:11 AM

So you're saying that Luke would have tried to attack Palpatine without being baited into it? Because the fight between him and Vader started at the point he attacked Palpatine, and since his stated objective in getting captured in the first place was to get Vader to turn, it seems unlikely he would have just had a fight with him for the lulz.

He was always going to have to fight Vader though. If not to get to Palpatine then in self defense. They weren't just going to let him walk away, and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death.

factotum

2018-02-22, 06:55 AM

He was always going to have to fight Vader though. If not to get to Palpatine then in self defense. They weren't just going to let him walk away, and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death.

Yeah, but there's a significant difference between Luke actually starting the fight and him being forced to fight in order to leave...

Keltest

2018-02-22, 08:51 AM

Yeah, but there's a significant difference between Luke actually starting the fight and him being forced to fight in order to leave...

Also, Luke was fairly confidant that Vader was on the verge of abandoning the Dark Side, and he knew about the rebel attack. He wasn't planning on rotting in space jail for a month, he was going to take his father and run.

Devonix

2018-02-22, 10:15 AM

He was always going to have to fight Vader though. If not to get to Palpatine then in self defense. They weren't just going to let him walk away, and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death.

Luke's plan was to Talk No Jutsu Vader into leaving palpatine. He wasn't there to fight him. Palpatine goaded Luke into attacking him at which point Vader chose to save his master. Palpatine knew he'd do that because after all, Vader's a loyal guard dog.

Even if he should have let it happen, it's like Right Eye attacking Xykon and Redcloak saving him.

hamishspence

2018-02-22, 10:22 AM

Even if he should have let it happen, it's like Right Eye attacking Xykon and Redcloak saving him.

In the original OT novelization, it's very like that - Vader is not protecting Palpatine because he's a "loyal attack dog" but because he sees Palpatine as means to an end - the end being "turning Luke" - he thinks that Palpatine was being honest when it said "only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force" but he also plans on going after Palpatine the moment Luke is fully "turned":

"Rise, my friend, I would talk with you,"
Vader rose, and accompanied his master. They were followed in procession by the Emperor's courtiers, the royal guard, Jerjerrod, and the Death Star elite guard, with mixed reverence and fear.
Vader felt complete at the Emperor's side. Though the emptiness at his core never left him, it became a glorious emptiness in the glare of the Emperor's cold light, an exalted void that could encompass the universe. And someday would encompass the universe ... when the Emperor was dead.
For that was Vader's final dream. When he'd learned all he could of the dark power from this evil genius, to take that power from him, seize it and keep its cold light at his own core—kill the Emperor and devour his darkness, and rule the universe. Rule with his son at his side.
For that was his other dream—to reclaim his boy, to show Luke the majesty of this shadow force: why it was so potent, why he'd chosen rightly to follow its path. And Luke would come with him, he knew. That seed was sown. They would rule together, father and son.
His dream was very close to realization, he could feel it; it was near. Each event fell into place as he'd nudged it, with Jedi subtlety, as he'd pressed, with delicate dark strength.
"The Death Star will be completed on schedule, my master," Vader breathed.

Vader was impressed by Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more tutelage, first—training by both Vader and Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places—or the right places prematurely.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-22, 10:26 AM

You mean the thing that happened anyway without the baiting being necessary? Sure.
Maybe I need to rewatch the scene at this point but, as I recall, he doesn't fight Vader until he tries to kill the Emperor. Can you explain why you think it happened anyway without the baiting?

Luke went there to turn Vader against the Emperor and instead the Emperor got Luke to fight Vader. That was the point. The Emperor never thought he was going to die. He fully expected Vader to block the strike.

Now, even *if* Luke fought Vader without Sidious provoking the fight, Luke attempts to stop twice. The idea is to keep poking and prodding to get Luke to either kill Vader or be killed by Vader. That's it. So if he trades some blows with Vader and then stops because he's there to redeem Vader, then Sidious will still provoke him into fighting anyways. And one of the ways to o that is to taunt him to strike him down because he knows Vader will intercede and BAM! Luke and Vader are fighting again.

It seems to make more sense to me that if it needs explanation, it's easier to think that Sidious and Vader had a team huddle beforehand and that Vader knew Sidious' intentions before he walked in with Luke. That seems more likely than dying actually being a part of Sidious' plans.

Keltest

2018-02-22, 10:36 AM

Keep in mind, the Emperor and Vader also thought everyone Luke knew and loved was about to die. They had him emotionally cornered. That is absolutely the time to press their advantage and drag him down into the dark side, at which point they can bully and threaten him into doing their bidding until he decides he likes it.

Psyren

2018-02-22, 10:49 AM

He was always going to have to fight Vader though. If not to get to Palpatine then in self defense. They weren't just going to let him walk away, and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death.

Exactly this. At least somebody gets it.

So you're saying that Luke would have tried to attack Palpatine without being baited into it?

No, I'm saying he would have had to fight Vader anyway. Goading him just so he fights Vader is stupid. Especially if he was truly risking his own life to do so.

Now, even *if* Luke fought Vader without Sidious provoking the fight, Luke attempts to stop twice. The idea is to keep poking and prodding to get Luke to either kill Vader or be killed by Vader. That's it. So if he trades some blows with Vader and then stops because he's there to redeem Vader, then Sidious will still provoke him into fighting anyways. And one of the ways to o that is to taunt him to strike him down because he knows Vader will intercede and BAM! Luke and Vader are fighting again.

Which is still dumb. He demonstrates moments later that he's perfectly willing and able to kill Luke himself. Or if he wanted Vader to do it, just order him to. Risking his own life accomplishes nothing.

Anyway, I didn't come here to defend Lucas' post-V poor filmmaking and plot holes. This has reminded me why i rank TFA, R1 and TLJ above RotJ though, so thanks for that at least.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-22, 11:42 AM

He was always going to have to fight Vader though. If not to get to Palpatine then in self defense. They weren't just going to let him walk away, and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death.Exactly this. At least somebody gets it.
Luke doesn't know what it will take to get Vader to turn, but he thinks Vader might turn. So he goes to confront the Emperor with Vader there. The line "... and Vader wasn't going to turn until he saw his son on the brink of death." does not follow from "He was always going to have to fight Vader though."

Luke's plan isn't "I'll fight my dad and... let him wound me so then he'll feel bad and turn." It was "confront them both and convince my dad to take my side, because I know he's conflicted and I can sense the good in him."

Luke did not go there intending to fight Vader. He was goaded into fighting Vader.

Which is still dumb. He demonstrates moments later that he's perfectly willing and able to kill Luke himself. Or if he wanted Vader to do it, just order him to. Risking his own life accomplishes nothing.
He wants to turn Luke, not kill him. He wants Luke to replace Vader. He needs Luke to fall to the dark side, so he pits him against Vader.

And I don't think many people believe Sidious risked his own life in that scene.

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-22, 03:12 PM

To wit, survival as a force ghost (in the Lucas film-only canon universe) is something restricted to the light side. Dark Siders cannot attain it, because it requires a mindset utterly alien to the Dark Side.

Unless you sacrifice thousands/millions of innocents to turn yourself in a more or less "literal" soul-in-a-jar. As in, your soul is forever trapped in a device/thing/temple/jar, unable to interact with anything outside barring ghostly whispers to the ear. But, hey, we don't know exactly how Sith Hell would be like, so maybe that's better than becoming one with the Force (?).

I don't think Sidious intended for Luke to actually strike him with down. I think that would result in his death. Obi-wan was killed when he was struck down, even if he persists as a ghost. Up until the incredible ground-breaking and visionary The Last Jedi, force ghosts didn't do much except talk. Nothing seems to indicate that Sidious would persist beyond death or that he wanted to be killed.

There. Now this chunk of your text is 99% accurate :smallamused:

BTW, is it just me or everyone else is also craving for a remake of the PT based on the actual novelization (instead of the junior's version) in the future? Man, that is one remake I'd whole heartedly embrace.

factotum

2018-02-22, 05:18 PM

And I don't think many people believe Sidious risked his own life in that scene.

I dunno...Palpatine had an overly massive idea of his own plans and how good they were, I reckon. I mean, it takes a really special kind of idiot to not only leak the *real* Death Star 2 plans to the Rebels in order to draw them into your trap, but then also to not block off the access-ways to the main reactor so ships will crash when they try to get to it.

Mechalich

2018-02-22, 06:12 PM

I dunno...Palpatine had an overly massive idea of his own plans and how good they were, I reckon. I mean, it takes a really special kind of idiot to not only leak the *real* Death Star 2 plans to the Rebels in order to draw them into your trap, but then also to not block off the access-ways to the main reactor so ships will crash when they try to get to it.

Palpatine did put an impenetrable shield around the entire Death Star II and he took steps to preserve the shield. It's fairly easy to imagine some technical reason why the Empire couldn't plug the holes in the incomplete Death Star II without massively compromising structural integrity.

And Palpatine is overconfident. Hubris is his big flaw. For instance, he tries to blow up the Rebel Fleet using the DSII simply in order to show off. He doesn't need to blast cruisers with the superlaser, Piett's fleet is plenty big enough to win the fight on its own.

So yeah, he fails to see the potential of Vader turning good - he's so depraved he's completely incapable of even considering that possibility - and he fails to anticipate an Ewok army - that only happens through the bizarre coincidence of the rebels bringing a golden protocol droid on a commando mission - but his belief that he's holding all the cards is not unreasonable. He's got a 99% chance of victory, he just forgets that the Force plays with loaded dice.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-23, 03:28 PM

There. Now this chunk of your text is 99% accurate :smallamused:
:smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallamused:

BTW, is it just me or everyone else is also craving for a remake of the PT based on the actual novelization (instead of the junior's version) in the future? Man, that is one remake I'd whole heartedly embrace.
I mean... I like the political aspect of the prequels and I'm not all-in on the novels. Some of them are good (Thrawn, Bane), but many others are not.

I like the universe that Lucas created, if not so much all the stories that we've gotten out of them so far. OT was good. PT was not. ST is specifically trying to kill what we know so it doesn't really count (it's also very easily the worst of the three trilogies).

I dunno...Palpatine had an overly massive idea of his own plans and how good they were, I reckon. I mean, it takes a really special kind of idiot to not only leak the *real* Death Star 2 plans to the Rebels in order to draw them into your trap, but then also to not block off the access-ways to the main reactor so ships will crash when they try to get to it.
But I think his "over"-confidence is merited. If you were Palpatine in your sixth Star Wars movie *still* ruling the Empire that you took for yourself from the Republic, you'd be confident too. Who can possibly stop him? The Jedi. Well guess what, he destroyed them lol.

I mean... sure, he didn't know that sticks and stones thrown by walking teddy bears could take down his armored elite stormtroopers. I guess we can fault him for that.

A better resolution might have been Vader turning and deactivating the shield to the Death Star from the throne room, and then confronting the Emperor and defeating him. That way the Emperor is blind-sided completely by Vader's turn. As opposed to a gold robot god and an army of furbys. But I'm a Palpatine fan.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 03:39 PM

:smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallamused:

I mean... I like the political aspect of the prequels and I'm not all-in on the novels. Some of them are good (Thrawn, Bane), but many others are not.

I like the universe that Lucas created, if not so much all the stories that we've gotten out of them so far. OT was good. PT was not. ST is specifically trying to kill what we know so it doesn't really count (it's also very easily the worst of the three trilogies).As someone who is all-in on the novels, I wholly agree with you. I was one of the few people who, when the Disney Wipe was announced, was happy about it. There was a lot I loved in the EU, but there was a whole helluva lot more that was ridiculous.

But I think his "over"-confidence is merited. If you were Palpatine in your sixth Star Wars movie *still* ruling the Empire that you took for yourself from the Republic, you'd be confident too. Who can possibly stop him? The Jedi. Well guess what, he destroyed them lol.
Well, in addition to the walking teddy bears that you yourself agree on, also a desert farm boy and a pretty massive rebellion against him.

A better resolution might have been Vader turning and deactivating the shield to the Death Star from the throne room, and then confronting the Emperor and defeating him. That way the Emperor is blind-sided completely by Vader's turn. As opposed to a gold robot god and an army of furbys. But I'm a Palpatine fan.
Eh, I dunno. There's no reason for Vader to deactivate the shield; so long as Luke is not dying in front of him, begging Vader for help, he ain't turning good. He may kill the Emperor, but that's not at all in line with letting the Rebels blow the Death Star. Not that I'm saying the teddy bears were good or anything.

Devonix

2018-02-23, 05:33 PM

I don't think that i'll ever understand people thinking that the New trilogy is trying to kill the past.

The entire message of the film is about how important it is to learn from the lessons of the past and build on them.

The guy saying kill the past is the villain who's whole thing is not learning and growing properly.

Psyren

2018-02-23, 05:42 PM

ST is specifically trying to kill what we know so it doesn't really count (it's also very easily the worst of the three trilogies).

Well if I didn't already, this tells me everything I needed to know about your opinion and the futility of engaging with it.

As someone who is all-in on the novels, I wholly agree with you. I was one of the few people who, when the Disney Wipe was announced, was happy about it. There was a lot I loved in the EU, but there was a whole helluva lot more that was ridiculous.

What's nice about the Wipe is that now, they can cherry-pick the stuff that was most appealing, works best, or that can be adapted easiest, while tossing the rest - like Thrawn showing up in Rebels.

I don't think that i'll ever understand people thinking that the New trilogy is trying to kill the past.

The entire message of the film is about how important it is to learn from the lessons of the past and build on them.

The guy saying kill the past is the villain who's whole thing is not learning and growing properly.

Nice that someone gets it at least.

Devonix

2018-02-23, 05:57 PM

It's like people taking Bill's view on humanity from Kill Bill seriously.

Bill's the bad guy. He's a killer who puts himself above people.

Not the best person to ask about the true motivation of Superman.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-23, 06:24 PM

Psyren, I would imagine our many engagements across two TLJ threads would have told you everything you needed to know 🙄.

Devonix, my opinion on TLJ is not based on a line from Kylo Ren, but rather from the movie in its entirety. It’s very clear to me that TLJ was meant to let us all know that Disney now owns Star Wars and is moving away from all that’s been established before it. It’s honestly baffling to me how other people don’t see that, but that’s why we argue about stuff and that’s how we get multiple threads on the topic (that in turn spawn other threads).

Devonix

2018-02-23, 06:32 PM

Psyren

2018-02-23, 06:33 PM

Psyren, I would imagine our many engagements across two TLJ threads would have told you everything you needed to know 🙄.

I actually didn't recall you specifically, all the ST-haters just blend into an amorphous blob from where I sit.

It’s very clear to me that TLJ was meant to let us all know that Disney now owns Star Wars and is moving away from all that’s been established before it.

Obviously they can't move away from everything, lightsabers still exists and all the events of the OT/PT are still canon (more's the pity.)

Peelee

2018-02-23, 06:35 PM

I actually didn't recall you specifically, all the ST-haters just blend into an amorphous blob from where I sit.

Hey, I've been losing weight!:smalltongue:

Xyril

2018-02-23, 08:32 PM

Devonix, my opinion on TLJ is not based on a line from Kylo Ren, but rather from the movie in its entirety. It’s very clear to me that TLJ was meant to let us all know that Disney now owns Star Wars and is moving away from all that’s been established before it. It’s honestly baffling to me how other people don’t see that, but that’s why we argue about stuff and that’s how we get multiple threads on the topic (that in turn spawn other threads).

Could you perhaps articulate more specifically what about the "the movie in its entirety" gives you that opinion? And while I'm asking questions, do you mean specifically the move away from the EU continuity, or do you see a sense that Disney is trying brand these movies as its own trilogy, distinct from those that came before?

There are a few specific moves, established early in the new trilogy, that feels like it might be Disney marking its territory by making a huge departure from EU cannon--mainly Kylo Ren, who is pretty much a "This is not Legends!" signpost who makes it impossible to reconcile many of the most prominent EU characters with the new continuity. But beyond that and a few other continuity points, to me the whole of the movies felt more like they were trying to almost slavishly copy the feel of the original trilogy, and perhaps wash off some of the stink of the prequels. Young desert-dwelling Force sensitive trying to escape a dreary life? Check. Call to adventure in the form of a chance encounter with deceptively important droid? Check. Awkwardly executed but prominently featured romance subplot? Gone.

In fact, as others have said, they even keep some of the better parts of EU canon. (Or at the very least, they came up with very similar elements and didn't, as would logically follow from your hypothesis, realize that they were matching EU and trash those elements for the sake of distancing themselves.) The movies have pretty much implied that the interim between episodes 6 and 7 unfolded much like they did in the EU: The New Republic discovered that throwing off the chains of empire is a lot easier than reestablishing a large, cohesive consensus government, and crumbled under the weight of the Empire's remnants, discord within its own heterogeneous population, and the force of many people who actually wanted to sacrifice their freedom for a return to the peace and order offered by an authoritarian government.

The truth is, there is so much EU canon, much of varying quality, some even coming close to contradicting other parts, that it would be incredibly difficult to do justice to it on the big screen. Even with something as fundamental as the nature of the Force and the Dark Side, the EU has been inconsistent with a few deliberate editorial pushes one way or another. Vergere, for example, made an argument very similar to one that I think I saw voiced on this thread, that there wasn't a stark binary between Light Side and Dark Side, and the books generally depicted this as a minority view of the Force, controversial in universe, that nonetheless might have been a valid, but dangerous, way to understand it. Then around Fate of the Jedi or so, editorial word of God said that this was not in fact true, and that everything Vergere said was an intentional lie meant to turn someone to the Dark Side.

The EU is 40 years of real life history, multiple generations of authors, and editorial disputes played out in books and comics. Even when a publisher is specifically trying to associate itself with a body of work that vast, as Marvel Studios is, it sometimes has to change a few details--some really important ones-- to make sure that the broad strokes more or less work.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 08:47 PM

Could you perhaps articulate more specifically what about the "the movie in its entirety" gives you that opinion? And while I'm asking questions, do you mean specifically the move away from the EU continuity, or do you see a sense that Disney is trying brand these movies as its own trilogy, distinct from those that came before?

There are a few specific moves, established early in the new trilogy, that feels like it might be Disney marking its territory by making a huge departure from EU cannon--mainly Kylo Ren, who is pretty much a "This is not Legends!" signpost who makes it impossible to reconcile many of the most prominent EU characters with the new continuity. But beyond that and a few other continuity points, to me the whole of the movies felt more like they were trying to almost slavishly copy the feel of the original trilogy, and perhaps wash off some of the stink of the prequels. Young desert-dwelling Force sensitive trying to escape a dreary life? Check. Call to adventure in the form of a chance encounter with deceptively important droid? Check. Awkwardly executed but prominently featured romance subplot? Gone.

TFA was a complete rehash, yes. Both movies seen like they want to fundamentally change how the universe they're in works, though. Not-The-Death-Star is shielded? That's ok, we can just fly through that. Ships can escape through hyperspace? That's ok, we can track them now. Fleet is overwhelmed by a Super-Duper-Star-Destroyer? That's ok, a single ship can take it out.

These are things that are entrenched in the Star Wars universe. Except they don't work with what the new people want to do, so instead of working with the existing framework, they'll just change the framework. Even the worst of the EU didn't try to financially change how the universe worked. Well, maybe New Jedi Order with the Yuuzhan Vong. And hey, guess what 19-book series I really hated?

Malifice

2018-02-23, 08:52 PM

Isn't it canon that the force lightning didn't disfigure him?

He always looked like that; he just concealed his appearance with sith alchemy.

He was clearly feining weakness to Anakin at that point. Still reckon Mace owned him though.

Xyril

2018-02-23, 08:59 PM

TFA was a complete rehash, yes. Both movies seen like they want to fundamentally change how the universe they're in works, though. Not-The-Death-Star is shielded? That's ok, we can just fly through that. Ships can escape through hyperspace? That's ok, we can track them now. Fleet is overwhelmed by a Super-Duper-Star-Destroyer? That's ok, a single ship can take it out.

These are things that are entrenched in the Star Wars universe. Except they don't work with what the new people want to do, so instead of working with the existing framework, they'll just change the framework. Even the worst of the EU didn't try to financially change how the universe worked. Well, maybe New Jedi Order with the Yuuzhan Vong. And hey, guess what 19-book series I really hated?

I know you mean "fundamentally," but the idea of introducing the Ferengi to the Star Wars continuity has a certain twisted appeal. Maybe they could have been the secret partners of the Trade Federation?

Also, I don't see the problem with single ship taking out a single really big ship, in universe, although to this day the whole Death Star thermal vent thing makes me grouse about the bizarre space thermodynamics that make such a thing necessary. As for tracking in hyperspace, I don't know if that was an immutable law of the Star Wars universe or an assessment of the state of technology of the time. I want to say I remember them pulling off not-quite-tracking, but something resembling sensing in hyperspace, but that was part of that series neither of us wants to revisit in any detail.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 09:07 PM

I know you mean "fundamentally," but the idea of introducing the Ferengi to the Star Wars continuity has a certain twisted appeal. Maybe they could have been the secret partners of the Trade Federation?

Also, I don't see the problem with single ship taking out a single really big ship, in universe, although to this day the whole Death Star thermal vent thing makes me grouse about the bizarre space thermodynamics that make such a thing necessary. As for tracking in hyperspace, I don't know if that was an immutable law of the Star Wars universe or an assessment of the state of technology of the time. I want to say I remember them pulling off not-quite-tracking, but something resembling sensing in hyperspace, but that was part of that series neither of us wants to revisit in any detail.

Agreed.

Also, I do remember a bit more of the EU books that fuddled with the way the framework is. Like the Crystal Star, with an extra-dimensional/extra-universal (?) being. And was also god-awful. At least I can be happy in my consistency with hating stories that change the framework.

ETA: my big problem with the hyperspace-missile is that now every capital ship is a glass cannon. There are no fleets that present danger, there are now paper tigers. Why not just make actual hyperspace missiles? Even a ghetto-version of sticking a Droid in a Headhunter should do massive damage and is freely available to virtually everyone in the SW universe.

I never had an issue with the Death Star's exhaust port because it still presented a massive amount of difficulty. Not only stealing the plans, but also escaping Vader, analyzing them, finding the weakness, then flying against the heavily armored station with a fighter screen, then flying down the trench and making the explicitly ridiculously hard shot. It literally required a space wizard, with an ambush by his friend, to pull off. As opposed to "I have a hyperdrive, it's kamikaze time!" No inherent difficulty.

Second ETA: as I said in another thread, there's also that stun shots, which originally just dropped people, suddenly make them fly across the room like they were hit with a battering ram. Because if there's one thing a non-lethal setting needs, it's the potential to kill the people hit with it. If they want comic moments, they could at least not be so damn lazy about it.

Keltest

2018-02-23, 09:41 PM

Agreed.

Also, I do remember a bit more of the EU books that fuddled with the way the framework is. Like the Crystal Star, with an extra-dimensional/extra-universal (?) being. And was also god-awful. At least I can be happy in my consistency with hating stories that change the framework.

ETA: my big problem with the hyperspace-missile is that now every capital ship is a glass cannon. There are no fleets that present danger, there are now paper tigers. Why not just make actual hyperspace missiles? Even a ghetto-version of sticking a Droid in a Headhunter should do massive damage and is freely available to virtually everyone in the SW universe.

I never had an issue with the Death Star's exhaust port because it still presented a massive amount of difficulty. Not only stealing the plans, but also escaping Vader, analyzing them, finding the weakness, then flying against the heavily armored station with a fighter screen, then flying down the trench and making the explicitly ridiculously hard shot. It literally required a space wizard, with an ambush by his friend, to pull off. As opposed to "I have a hyperdrive, it's kamikaze time!" No inherent difficulty.

Second ETA: as I said in another thread, there's also that stun shots, which originally just dropped people, suddenly make them fly across the room like they were hit with a battering ram. Because if there's one thing a non-lethal setting needs, it's the potential to kill the people hit with it. If they want comic moments, they could at least not be so damn lazy about it.

The Hyperspace missile only worked because the ship in question had enough mass behind it to not just splatter all over the windshield when it struck. If you took, say, a regular asteroid and strapped a hyperdrive to it, it would almost certainly not do significant damage to that ship, hyperspace acceleration or not. And if youre willing to commit the resources needed to build a capital ship just to take out one ship like that, youre better off fielding a fleet of Y-wings and just bombing the crap out of it.

Sure, it makes things like the Death Star and whatever the heck Snoke's ship was called seem really silly, but that's because they are really silly. That's the point.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 09:47 PM

The Hyperspace missile only worked because the ship in question had enough mass behind it to not just splatter all over the windshield when it struck. If you took, say, a regular asteroid and strapped a hyperdrive to it, it would almost certainly not do significant damage to that ship, hyperspace acceleration or not. And if youre willing to commit the resources needed to build a capital ship just to take out one ship like that, youre better off fielding a fleet of Y-wings and just bombing the crap out of it.

Sure, it makes things like the Death Star and whatever the heck Snoke's ship was called seem really silly, but that's because they are really silly. That's the point.

A.) Asteroids can get pretty big
2.) Source? Unless explicitly stated, there's no reason to think that "small thing going really fast hitting big thing" would do no damage to the big thing. Imean, that's literally how bullets work.

Keltest

2018-02-23, 10:04 PM

A.) Asteroids can get pretty big
2.) Source? Unless explicitly stated, there's no reason to think that "small thing going really fast hitting big thing" would do no damage to the big thing. Imean, that's literally how bullets work.

Bullets work because a significant amount of our mass is important to our continued functioning, and we tend to catastrophically fail if any part of it is seriously disrupted. Also, were relatively soft. A ship that size has lots of redundancies in case, say, somebody damages a part of it by throwing rocks at it.

Furthermore, F=MA. As soon as impact happens, a meteorite will shatter. It might take a chunk out of the surface, but it aint going to drill a hole through the ship. It just loses too much mass too quickly for that.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 10:16 PM

Bullets work because a significant amount of our mass is important to our continued functioning, and we tend to catastrophically fail if any part of it is seriously disrupted. Also, were relatively soft. A ship that size has lots of redundancies in case, say, somebody damages a part of it by throwing rocks at it.

Furthermore, F=MA. As soon as impact happens, a meteorite will shatter. It might take a chunk out of the surface, but it aint going to drill a hole through the ship. It just loses too much mass too quickly for that.

No, it really would drill a hole through the ship.

https://www.google.com/search?q=micrometeorite+impact&client=ms-android-sprint-us&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcl5DKyr3ZAhWRu1MKHR2KBiYQ_AUICSgB&biw=412&bih=604&dpr=2.63

And these are significantly smaller than a spaceship, and going nowhere near relativistic velocities.

Also, yes, even punching the cleanest possible X-Wing-shaped Wile E. Coyote hole would do a helluva lot of damage somewhere vital, like the bridge. Which, in the Star Wars universe, is rather prominently placed on the bag guys' ships. Even ignoring that they could not the engines, or energy reactor systems (which are notoriously made of Explodium in SW).

ETA: hey, that third image is even from our own forums! With a handy dandy thread basically saying "Peelee is right in that future thread about the Star War," from my understanding.

Keltest

2018-02-23, 10:23 PM

No, it really would drill a hole through the ship.

https://www.google.com/search?q=micrometeorite+impact&client=ms-android-sprint-us&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcl5DKyr3ZAhWRu1MKHR2KBiYQ_AUICSgB&biw=412&bih=604&dpr=2.63

And these are significantly smaller than a spaceship, and going nowhere near relativistic velocities.

Also, yes, even punching the cleanest possible X-Wing-shaped Wile E. Coyote hole would do a helluva lot of damage somewhere vital, like the bridge. Which, in the Star Wars universe, is rather prominently placed on the bag guys' ships. Even ignoring that they could not the engines, or energy reactor systems (which are notoriously made of Explodium in SW).

ETA: hey, that third image is even from our own forums! With a handy dandy thread basically saying "Peelee is right in that future thread about the Star War," from my understanding.

As cool as those are to look at, they still aren't "shatter the ship into a million pieces in one blow" sized. And yeah, that's non-trivial damage, and you could probably destroy a ship if you had a fleet of them, but again, at that point, why not just make some Y-wings that do the same job without permanently expending all the resources that went into building your over-engineered missile?

Edit: also, the original projectile in that third image from the thread disintegrated, which was both amusing and relevant to my point. It would hurt, but you aren't shattering ships with these things.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 10:29 PM

As cool as those are to look at, they still aren't "shatter the ship into a million pieces in one blow" sized. And yeah, that's non-trivial damage, and you could probably destroy a ship if you had a fleet of them, but again, at that point, why not just make some Y-wings that do the same job without permanently expending all the resources that went into building your over-engineered missile?

Don't need to be "shatter the ship into a million peices." I never said it would be as spectacular as Holdo's takeout. I just said it would take out the ship.

We know a single A-Wing going at normal speeds, at just the right time the shield was down, hitting a SSD bridge completely takes out the ship. Even if there was a second bridge, it made the ship lose complete control for a non-insignificany amount of time.

An A-Wing at lightspeed? It's punching through the whole bridge. Hell, it's punching through the whole ship if you point it at the nose. And, again, considering the damage that the same A-Wing did at normal speeds, I don't think the new First Order ship is gonna far any better when the hole is 8km long.

Edit to your edit: yeah, it disintegrated. You're totally right. After punching a huge hole in that solid armor. And that was tiny and slow compared to what we're talking about. By orders of magnitude.

Keltest

2018-02-23, 10:31 PM

Don't need to be "shatter the ship into a million peices." I never said it would be as spectacular as Holdo's takeout. I just said it would take out the ship.

We know a single A-Wing going at normal speeds, at just the right time the shield was down, hitting a SSD bridge completely takes out the ship. Even if there was a second bridge, it made the ship lose complete control for a non-insignificany amount of time.

An A-Wing at lightspeed? It's punching through the when bridge. Hell, it's punching through the whole ship if you point it at the nose. And, again, considering the damage that the same A-Wing did at normal speeds, I don't think the new First Order ship is gonna far any better when the hole is 8km long.

That A-wing is going to disintegrate. Yeah, it will make a crater, but it wont drill a hole through the ship the way you seem to think it will. Especially not the long way through.

Also, and I'm bothered that you keep ignoring this, where is the advantage over just making dedicated bomber craft?

Devonix

2018-02-23, 10:34 PM

Peelee

2018-02-23, 10:40 PM

That A-wing is going to disintegrate. Yeah, it will make a crater, but it wont drill a hole through the ship the way you seem to think it will. Especially not the long way through.

Also, and I'm bothered that you keep ignoring this, where is the advantage over just making dedicated bomber craft?

It's going to disintegrate, we agree. I disagree that it would just make a crater. As did most people in that thread.

Also, it was less an issue of me ignoring that question that me not noticing it. Sorry! Anyway, the advantage is clear; it's much more dependable. We saw bombers. They were incredibly slow, incredibly cumbersome, and incredibly fragile. The needed Mary Sue to take out literally every gun on the deadnaught, in addition to gross incompetence from the fleet Commander, in addition to flat-out luck to take out the dreadnaught, and it cost all the dedicated bombers, all the people on the bombers, and a considerable amount of time. Compare this to "launch a hyperdrive-equipped asteroid at the bridge and book it." Cheaper, faster, more reliable, no loss of life.... The bomber's only advantage is "it doesn't cheapen the story by being a win button."

There's also the fact that the only reason the suicide run worked is because Hux being the idiot that he always is. Chose to ignore the ship and not destroy it while it was powering up it's engines and didn't notice it was pointing itself towards them.

Otherwise it would have just gotten blown up and done no damage. Or they would have intensified the forward sheilds to repel the it.

The guns have an effective range. The hyperdrive doesn't. It has Galactic range. It only needs to out-range the guns, which it can easily do. It doesn't even need to do that if it's an asteroid or ship launched from a bay.

Also, hyperdrives can bypass shields. See Ep. VII, handily enough.

Xyril

2018-02-23, 10:41 PM

ETA: my big problem with the hyperspace-missile is that now every capital ship is a glass cannon. There are no fleets that present danger, there are now paper tigers. Why not just make actual hyperspace missiles? Even a ghetto-version of sticking a Droid in a Headhunter should do massive damage and is freely available to virtually everyone in the SW universe.

I see where you're coming from--in terms of storytelling, tough battleships tend to make it easier/more plausible to set up suspenseful scenes. That being said, glass cannons aren't paper tigers. (Never thought I'd ever say that sentence.) If you look at real world analogs, that's pretty much where we are now: In naval technology, offensive capabilities have consistently outpaced defensive capabilities, to the extent that in a matter of a century or two we went from ships of the line pounding each other for hours to pretty much any ship being able to carry enough armament to potentially sink any other ship regardless of tonnage. The kind of ship that attacked the U.S.S. Cole is in fact as freely available as your droid in the obsolete fighter. And on the more sophisticated level, we actually do have the technology to build missiles that go into space and can theoretically hit any target anywhere.

Somehow, we manage to keep the drama going, and our glass cannon fleets actually do remain pretty threatening. A large fleet, even one vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, is still a threat to transportation, economic production, manufacturing, bases--the stuff that keeps a side fighting long term--and of course, other military fleets. Moreover, that form of asymmetric warfare tends to have the advantage when attacking, being able to exploit the element of surprise and pick favorable conditions. It's not always reliable against a ship at combat readiness, especially when that ship's position and that of its target pretty much dictate the field of battle.

I haven't seen the unmade movies yet, but I'm sincerely hoping that unstoppable hyperspace missiles won't just become a thing that permanently changes the landscape. Back to the real world analogues, missiles and torpedoes were once regarded the same way that you regard the hyperspace-tracking weapons: "Holy crap, even a plane could potentially sink a carrier or even a battleship!" The military adapted. Defense became as much about avoiding hits as surviving them, and instead of being the most heavily armored, high value ships became the ones protected by multiple other, more expendable ships. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic, but I'm hoping that Planet Death Star and other First Order advances are simply plot devices to explain how a major galactic power could go back to the old status quo of being scrappy outnumbered rebels facing impossible odds, and that the next chapter will be about how they adapt to these advancements in a show of their scrappiness. Maybe "no shields in hyperspace" isn't a hard scientific limitation, but rather a technology failing that persisted because everyone was so used to being able to hide in hyperspace? Maybe Star Wars capital ships will have to start using air patrols?

I never had an issue with the Death Star's exhaust port because it still presented a massive amount of difficulty. Not only stealing the plans, but also escaping Vader, analyzing them, finding the weakness, then flying against the heavily armored station with a fighter screen, then flying down the trench and making the explicitly ridiculously hard shot. It literally required a space wizard, with an ambush by his friend, to pull off.

Technically, that was only because of an evil space wizard on the other side. Granted, the future Rogue squadron had more talent than the average suicide bomber, but without Vader leading the defense that might not have needed Luke.

Second ETA: as I said in another thread, there's also that stun shots, which originally just dropped people, suddenly make them fly across the room like they were hit with a battering ram. Because if there's one thing a non-lethal setting needs, it's the potential to kill the people hit with it. If they want comic moments, they could at least not be so damn lazy about it.

I guess that didn't bothered me because I've always been a huge Star Trek fan (also, a bit of a real world weapons fan), and as others have mentioned, stun (or non-lethal in general) is only non-lethal in the sense that it's not nearly certain to be lethal. I recall an episode of TNG made it clear that the lowest stun settings wouldn't reliably stun bigger or tougher people, whereas the higher stun settings could in fact cause serious, potentially lethal burns if fired continuously over one area. Stunning a guy in one quick shot that leaves no lingering discomfort, or alternately taking five or six sustained shots to stun the big tough guy, were all plausible results due to luck and could be written in as dictated by plot.

Also, I don't actually remember stun being used often enough in the movies that I ever really developed a sense of how stun "should" work in the Star Wars universe. As far as I'm concerned, you could tell me that they're anywhere from the tranqs from Chuck to Star Trek phasers to something as inconsistent as a real life Taser, and I would find it completely plausible that any of that technology would yield the results I saw in the small number of data points featured in the movies.

In the EU, on the other hand, I definitely got the impression that there was widespread non-lethal technology that could reliably incapacitate people without lasting harm, and in that sense the last movie was a bit inconsistent, but as we've all covered before, EU was tossed out the window.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-23, 10:48 PM

Peelee

2018-02-23, 10:57 PM

I see where you're coming from--in terms of storytelling, tough battleships tend to make it easier/more plausible to set up suspenseful scenes. That being said, glass cannons aren't paper tigers. (Never thought I'd ever say that sentence.) If you look at real world analogs, that's pretty much where we are now: In naval technology, offensive capabilities have consistently outpaced defensive capabilities, to the extent that in a matter of a century or two we went from ships of the line pounding each other for hours to pretty much any ship being able to carry enough armament to potentially sink any other ship regardless of tonnage. The kind of ship that attacked the U.S.S. Cole is in fact as freely available as your droid in the obsolete fighter. And on the more sophisticated level, we actually do have the technology to build missiles that go into space and can theoretically hit any target anywhere.

Somehow, we manage to keep the drama going, and our glass cannon fleets actually do remain pretty threatening. A large fleet, even one vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, is still a threat to transportation, economic production, manufacturing, bases--the stuff that keeps a side fighting long term--and of course, other military fleets. Moreover, that form of asymmetric warfare tends to have the advantage when attacking, being able to exploit the element of surprise and pick favorable conditions. It's not always reliable against a ship at combat readiness, especially when that ship's position and that of its target pretty much dictate the field of battle.

I haven't seen the unmade movies yet, but I'm sincerely hoping that unstoppable hyperspace missiles won't just become a thing that permanently changes the landscape. Back to the real world analogues, missiles and torpedoes were once regarded the same way that you regard the hyperspace-tracking weapons: "Holy crap, even a plane could potentially sink a carrier or even a battleship!" The military adapted. Defense became as much about avoiding hits as surviving them, and instead of being the most heavily armored, high value ships became the ones protected by multiple other, more expendable ships. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic, but I'm hoping that Planet Death Star and other First Order advances are simply plot devices to explain how a major galactic power could go back to the old status quo of being scrappy outnumbered rebels facing impossible odds, and that the next chapter will be about how they adapt to these advancements in a show of their scrappiness. Maybe "no shields in hyperspace" isn't a hard scientific limitation, but rather a technology failing that persisted because everyone was so used to being able to hide in hyperspace? Maybe Star Wars capital ships will have to start using air patrols?

Technically, that was only because of an evil space wizard on the other side. Granted, the future Rogue squadron had more talent than the average suicide bomber, but without Vader leading the defense that might not have needed Luke.

I guess that didn't bothered me because I've always been a huge Star Trek fan (also, a bit of a real world weapons fan), and as others have mentioned, stun (or non-lethal in general) is only non-lethal in the sense that it's not nearly certain to be lethal. I recall an episode of TNG made it clear that the lowest stun settings wouldn't reliably stun bigger or tougher people, whereas the higher stun settings could in fact cause serious, potentially lethal burns if fired continuously over one area. Stunning a guy in one quick shot that leaves no lingering discomfort, or alternately taking five or six sustained shots to stun the big tough guy, were all plausible results due to luck and could be written in as dictated by plot.

Also, I don't actually remember stun being used often enough in the movies that I ever really developed a sense of how stun "should" work in the Star Wars universe. As far as I'm concerned, you could tell me that they're anywhere from the tranqs from Chuck to Star Trek phasers to something as inconsistent as a real life Taser, and I would find it completely plausible that any of that technology would yield the results I saw in the small number of data points featured in the movies.

In the EU, on the other hand, I definitely got the impression that there was widespread non-lethal technology that could reliably incapacitate people without lasting harm, and in that sense the last movie was a bit inconsistent, but as we've all covered before, EU was tossed out the window.
Fair enough in the "glass cannons are not paper tigers" bit. I'll concede that. I also don't think that hyperspace missiles, in any form, will continue to be a part of the series. I just wish it hasn't been part of it to begin with.

Also, we do have Wedge saying the shot is impossible, Han calling it a million-to-one shot, and Gold Leader missing the shot when with the assistance of the targeting computer. We are given reason to believe that the Rebels may not have got the shot off, Vader or no.

Devonix

2018-02-23, 11:05 PM

Peelee

2018-02-23, 11:08 PM

The original cut of the film also had Luke missing when he fired. The one he actually succeded in hitting was his second run. The fact that Luke already took the shot and failed was scrapped for time in the editing room.

All of this was to let the audience know that it didn't matter who took the shot or how good they were. Unless you gave yourself over to the force there was no way anyone was going to be blowing up the Death Star.

On the one hand, that sounds like a great way to get the message across. On the other hand, I don't know if Luke making two runs would have really worked in the movie; why not let someone else take the shot, since he already missed? One of his wingmen, for instance?

Devonix

2018-02-23, 11:11 PM

On the one hand, that sounds like a great way to get the message across. On the other hand, I don't know if Luke making two runs would have really worked in the movie; why not let someone else take the shot, since he already missed? One of his wingmen, for instance?

It was to show that it's not because Luke's a good pilot, it's because he gave himself over to the Force. It was supposed to hammer in that no one could make the shot.

The original cut of Starwars was very very different from what we got to see. Such as how in the original cut of the film the battle doesn't actually take place at Yavin 4. It's out in the middle of space and the Rebel Base was never actually in danger.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 11:17 PM

It was to show that it's not because Luke's a good pilot, it's because he gave himself over to the Force. It was supposed to hammer in that no one could make the shot.

The original cut of Starwars was very very different from what we got to see. Such as how in the original cut of the film the battle doesn't actually take place at Yavin 4. It's out in the middle of space and the Rebel Base was never actually in danger.

No, I get that. I even acknowledged it would have been a great way to get that message across. I don't mean from a storytelling perspective, I mean from an in-universe perspective, why would he get a second shot when he already missed, instead of one of the other pilots.

Xyril

2018-02-23, 11:31 PM

Also, we do have Wedge saying the shot is impossible, Han calling it a million-to-one shot, and Gold Leader missing the shot when with the assistance of the targeting computer. We are given reason to believe that the Rebels may not have got the shot off, Vader or no.

Fair point, I guess I never consciously took that to mean "this is unrealistic," even without special powers or skills, heck, perhaps especially when the guy in question is completely unqualified, all those things you mentioned usually indicate about a 50/50 chance that the kid makes the shot, in movies anyway.

Peelee

2018-02-23, 11:35 PM

Fair point, I guess I never consciously took that to mean "this is unrealistic," even without special powers or skills, heck, perhaps especially when the guy in question is completely unqualified, all those things you mentioned usually indicate about a 50/50 chance that the kid makes the shot, in movies anyway.

Ha! As Elan says, in stories a million to one shot is practically a guarantee it'll happen!

Xyril

2018-02-23, 11:58 PM

Ha! As Elan says, in stories a million to one shot is practically a guarantee it'll happen!

A good reminder to reread the comic and to rewatch some Star Wars when I get a chance. That last exchange made me realize that the last time I watched everything I was still in my "super-smug about knowing all the tropes" phase...

factotum

2018-02-24, 04:42 AM

That A-wing is going to disintegrate. Yeah, it will make a crater, but it wont drill a hole through the ship the way you seem to think it will. Especially not the long way through.

It depends entirely on how fast it's going. The kinetic energy of a moving object goes by the square of its velocity, and if that object hits something, the kinetic energy has to go *somewhere*--and the most likely place that energy will go is into the object that it hits. Make the object go fast enough and it's going to destroy anything, regardless of how fragile the object itself is. See also: the gunnery sergeant's speech from Mass Effect 2.

Keltest

2018-02-24, 06:29 AM

It depends entirely on how fast it's going. The kinetic energy of a moving object goes by the square of its velocity, and if that object hits something, the kinetic energy has to go *somewhere*--and the most likely place that energy will go is into the object that it hits. Make the object go fast enough and it's going to destroy anything, regardless of how fragile the object itself is. See also: the gunnery sergeant's speech from Mass Effect 2.

You are perhaps familiar with the Oh-My-God particle? and its friends? Notably, there was not an earth shattering kaboom when they came around. Theres more to the physics than just the energy.

Peelee

2018-02-24, 08:42 AM

You are perhaps familiar with the Oh-My-God particle? and its friends? Notably, there was not an earth shattering kaboom when they came around. Theres more to the physics than just the energy.

Not knowing anything about it except for a five second Google search, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's a significant difference between a cosmic ray particle and a car, as far as physics goes.

I got sick of saying A-Wing so much, and it's pithier

Devonix

2018-02-24, 09:08 AM

This right here explains why I always think it's wrong to delve too much into the physics of how things work. Sometimes is fine, but it's why there is the difference between Hard Scifi and Science Fantasy. And even in Hard Scifi there should be some leeway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEJ3T3ryQY

factotum

2018-02-24, 11:58 AM

You are perhaps familiar with the Oh-My-God particle? and its friends? Notably, there was not an earth shattering kaboom when they came around. Theres more to the physics than just the energy.

The total kinetic energy of the Oh-My-God particle was about equivalent to a baseball pitch*, and I hadn't noticed that there were earth-shattering kabooms every time a major league pitcher throws his ball? We're talking a heavy object travelling at thousands of miles an hour here, not the equivalent of a baseball thrown by a lazy pitcher who couldn't be bothered to bring his best game.

* Note: this is a *huge* amount of energy for a single subatomic particle to possess, don't get me wrong, it's just not a lot of energy on the macro scale of things.

Traab

2018-02-24, 08:23 PM

Isnt this basically a souped up railgun? They fire lighter smaller solid projectiles at ludicrous speeds to deliver absurd amounts of kinetic impact damage to whatever they hit. Yeah those bullets arent going to be reusable, they will be destroyed on impact. But guess what else gets destroyed? Whatever the round impacts on. I would imagine relativistic speeds would create obscene amounts of explosive kinetic impact damage. It wouldnt even have to be that large of an asteroid. F=MxA. When the A portion of that is "damn near light speed" the M can be tiny and still create insane F totals.

Another example. I work in an auto repair shop and saw a car brought in with hail damage. Dang thing looked like an oddly shaped golf ball it was covered in so many divots. Couldnt have been more than dime sized hail falling at maybe terminal velocity. Thats tiny chunks of frozen water denting metal at fairly low speeds. (Not sure what terminal velocity is for something that small, doubt its that much) They may shatter on impact, in fact im sure they did. But the damage was done.

Mechalich

2018-02-24, 08:59 PM

Mass and velocity are largely irrelevant to the discussion of hyperspace ramming in Star Wars. Conventional ramming has always been possible - we see ships take damage from the asteroid field at Hoth in ESB and X-wings slam into the Death Star in ANH - but there are tactics, like dodging or blasting apart the thing that's about to ram you, that work against that. You can build a 'ramship (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ramship)' if you want. This was a thing in the EU at points, but it isn't super-efficient.

The problem TLJ produces is that the Raddus jumps into hyperspace and cripples the Supremacy and blows apart several other Star Destroyers by doing so. This completely bypasses shields, armor plating, and any attempt to blow the ship apart before it makes contact. If this is possible, all you need to do is strap a hyperdrive onto a suitably massive object (and asteroids of reasonable mass are ludicrously abundant in space) and you can blow apart anything bypassing all defenses. A suicidal droid pilot is all you need. This makes both Death Stars and Starkiller base pointless. Starkiller Base especially, since the target area was absolutely something that this kind of strike would have impacted successfully.

factotum

2018-02-25, 02:09 AM

Mechalich

2018-02-25, 02:21 AM

Stuff in the new movies breaking things that happened in the old ones is a ship that sailed as soon as Han was able to assault Starkiller Base by flying through its shields in hyperspace. Kind of have to wonder why the Rebels didn't use that tactic at Endor, really, since they only needed to get small fighters into the Death Star in order to destroy it. Heck, if it's possible to be that precise with a hyperspace jump, you have to wonder why they couldn't just jump directly into the reactor chamber!

This is true. However, in that example it is at least cast as Han's maneuver being extremely unlikely to succeed and one can rationalize it by saying 'only the best pilot in the fastest ship in the galaxy could pull this off.' There's nothing special about the Raddus or Holdo's maneuvering. Hux even realizes what she's about to do before it happens. It's also particularly egregious because there's nothing stopping Holdo from just ramming the Supremacy in physical space. The would have had the same impact - knock the ship out of commission for the few minutes necessary for the transports to escape - and violated no in-universe rules.

Metahuman1

2018-02-25, 03:44 AM

Keltest

2018-02-25, 08:31 AM

Devonix

2018-02-25, 09:11 AM

hamishspence

2018-02-25, 09:35 AM

As I understood it Holdo's tactic required the ship to be close enough to hit the ships as part of the Jump. If it were farther away the ships wouldn't have been caught in the Hyperspace wave and Holdo would have simply bypassed them like every other jump.

A frame by frame look at the sequence, did make it appear that Holdo's ship had "vanished completely into hyperspace" immediately before hitting the Supremacy. That might simply be a movie constraint though.

At least in the EU, some stories portrayed objects in hyperspace being capable of interacting with objects in realspace, sometimes harmlessly (the Falcon being slower in hyperspace in areas with a high concentration of "space dust" than in areas with a low concentration - Lando trilogy) and sometimes less harmlessly (a battlecruiser jumping into hyperspace thanks to an accident, crashing into a planet, and leaving it massively irradiated, with fractures that go all the way down to the core - Incredible Cross Sections - Revenge of the Sith).

Keltest

2018-02-25, 09:51 AM

A frame by frame look at the sequence, did make it appear that Holdo's ship had "vanished completely into hyperspace" immediately before hitting the Supremacy. That might simply be a movie constraint though.

At least in the EU, some stories portrayed objects in hyperspace being capable of interacting with objects in realspace, sometimes harmlessly (the Falcon being slower in hyperspace in areas with a high concentration of "space dust" than in areas with a low concentration - Lando trilogy) and sometimes less harmlessly (a battlecruiser jumping into hyperspace thanks to an accident, crashing into a planet, and leaving it massively irradiated, with fractures that go all the way down to the core - Incredible Cross Sections - Revenge of the Sith).

As far back as ANH, Han implies that real space can interact with hyperspace in some way. He doesn't really elaborate on what that is though, and since planets like Coruscant must have tons of people jumping in and out every moment, I don't think all objects interact with hyperspace equally. IIRC, the EU had it that it was sufficiently large mass, like from a planet or star, that could drop you out of hyperspace.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-25, 10:10 AM

Could you perhaps articulate more specifically what about the "the movie in its entirety" gives you that opinion? And while I'm asking questions, do you mean specifically the move away from the EU continuity, or do you see a sense that Disney is trying brand these movies as its own trilogy, distinct from those that came before?
You can read my thoughts as I watched the movie here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22729831&postcount=161) (in the spoiler block). It doesn't fully answer your question but the gist of it is:

1. Daring action gets you slapped, stunned, and your friends and fellow soldiers killed. Poe was far more effective against the Resistance than the First Order was in this movie.

2. Heroic missions are pointless. Your attempts to save your friends and the movement are futile because of a parking ticket. You have died of dysentery.

3. The Jedi are bad. They had it all wrong. The galaxy needs to get over their hero worship of the Jedi. It is better to rot away and do nothing than save people and risk the galaxy relying on the Jedi.

4. The Force does not require any formality or organization. Any kid can use the Force, and somehow there aren't a million kids turning to the dark side across the galaxy because they haven't mastered their emotions yet.

These are the messages of the movie and appear to be a rebuke of the OT. We don't want Jedi, we don't want guys running around being heroes, we don't want improbable missions being pulled off in the nick of time to save the day. Anyone at any time can spring up with Force powers because of the Balance. The whole point of the movie, to my mind, is that nothing matters, both in the movie narrative itself, and in the meta sense with the fans. Forget what you think you know, because it's all different now.

zimmerwald1915

2018-02-25, 10:13 AM

3. The Jedi are bad. They had it all wrong. The galaxy needs to get over their hero worship of the Jedi. It is better to rot away and do nothing than save people and risk the galaxy relying on the Jedi.
To be fair, this is usually true, as far as "it is better to do nothing than to do something, especially if you've already mucked things up" goes. You're not indispensable, there's a lot of people in the world, and at least some of them are probably more well-suited to whatever task than you.

Keltest

2018-02-25, 10:15 AM

You can read my thoughts as I watched the movie here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22729831&postcount=161) (in the spoiler block). It doesn't fully answer your question but the gist of it is:

1. Daring action gets you slapped, stunned, and your friends and fellow soldiers killed. Poe was far more effective against the Resistance than the First Order was in this movie.

2. Heroic missions are pointless. Your attempts to save your friends and the movement are futile because of a parking ticket. You have died of dysentery.

3. The Jedi are bad. They had it all wrong. The galaxy needs to get over their hero worship of the Jedi. It is better to rot away and do nothing than save people and risk the galaxy relying on the Jedi.

4. The Force does not require any formality or organization. Any kid can use the Force, and somehow there aren't a million kids turning to the dark side across the galaxy because they haven't mastered their emotions yet.

These are the messages of the movie and appear to be a rebuke of the OT. We don't want Jedi, we don't want guys running around being heroes, we don't want improbable missions being pulled off in the nick of time to save the day. Anyone at any time can spring up with Force powers because of the Balance. The whole point of the movie, to my mind, is that nothing matters, both in the movie narrative itself, and in the meta sense with the fans. Forget what you think you know, because it's all different now.

Wait, you thought the intended takeaway was that Luke was right and that the Jedi were stupid and bad? Did you fall asleep during the scene where he gets explicitly rebuked for his way of thinking?

zimmerwald1915

2018-02-25, 10:21 AM

Wait, you thought the intended takeaway was that Luke was right and that the Jedi were stupid and bad? Did you fall asleep during the scene where he gets explicitly rebuked for his way of thinking?
Whether it was the intended takeaway or not, we can all observe the world around us and most of us have watched the prequels. We know the Jedi were stupid and bad.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-25, 10:34 AM

Wait, you thought the intended takeaway was that Luke was right and that the Jedi were stupid and bad?
Luke's sacrifice at the end is a compromise for himself. He very clearly believes that the Jedi need to end. He says as much, refuses to train Rey, refuses to leave the planet, and resolves to burn down the temple and sacred texts. He never turns away from this.

But... he does recognize by the end that the galaxy needs his help. Yoda's convenient timing stirs him out of his pathetic wallowing and self-loathing. So he wants to do something, but he doesn't want to pander to the "hero worship" of the Jedi that the galaxy supposedly engages in.

So instead of showing up and actually defeating the First Order somehow, he does a Force Projection and tricks them to buy the Resistance some time. This somehow inspires the galaxy (don't know how but that's word of god) but doesn't actually have the Jedi coming to the rescue.

There was an opportunity here to have Luke build a new Jedi Order after the OT. But instead, we have the Jedi failing all over again, and causing the galaxy's problems and being unable to fix things.

Rey is in almost the same position Luke was in at the end of RotJ as far as the Jedi Order is concerned. She has the texts so... maybe she'll start a new order? I don't know. I doubt it, because the movie is moving us away from that. No one needs training now, as evidenced by Rey and the slave kid. There isn't as grave a threat of people falling to the dark side now, otherwise all those little kids would be falling to evil like crazy across the galaxy. And Luke says Rey didn't even try to resist the dark side and it didn't even phase her at all, she's still a little paragon of goodness and virtue. The last jedi has died, and died turning his back on the Order.

So yes, I think the movie is telling us the Jedi need to end, and formal organized training isn't necessary to be strong and capable in the Force or resist the dark side.

Did you fall asleep during the scene where he gets explicitly rebuked for his way of thinking?
Are you talking about when Yoda appears to teach him a child's lesson?

Sapphire Guard

2018-02-25, 01:28 PM

I see where you're coming from--in terms of storytelling, tough battleships tend to make it easier/more plausible to set up suspenseful scenes. That being said, glass cannons aren't paper tigers. (Never thought I'd ever say that sentence.) If you look at real world analogs, that's pretty much where we are now: In naval technology, offensive capabilities have consistently outpaced defensive capabilities, to the extent that in a matter of a century or two we went from ships of the line pounding each other for hours to pretty much any ship being able to carry enough armament to potentially sink any other ship regardless of tonnage. The kind of ship that attacked the U.S.S. Cole is in fact as freely available as your droid in the obsolete fighter. And on the more sophisticated level, we actually do have the technology to build missiles that go into space and can theoretically hit any target anywhere.

Somehow, we manage to keep the drama going, and our glass cannon fleets actually do remain pretty threatening. A large fleet, even one vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, is still a threat to transportation, economic production, manufacturing, bases--the stuff that keeps a side fighting long term--and of course, other military fleets. Moreover, that form of asymmetric warfare tends to have the advantage when attacking, being able to exploit the element of surprise and pick favorable conditions. It's not always reliable against a ship at combat readiness, especially when that ship's position and that of its target pretty much dictate the field of battle.

I haven't seen the unmade movies yet, but I'm sincerely hoping that unstoppable hyperspace missiles won't just become a thing that permanently changes the landscape. Back to the real world analogues, missiles and torpedoes were once regarded the same way that you regard the hyperspace-tracking weapons: "Holy crap, even a plane could potentially sink a carrier or even a battleship!" The military adapted. Defense became as much about avoiding hits as surviving them, and instead of being the most heavily armored, high value ships became the ones protected by multiple other, more expendable ships. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic, but I'm hoping that Planet Death Star and other First Order advances are simply plot devices to explain how a major galactic power could go back to the old status quo of being scrappy outnumbered rebels facing impossible odds, and that the next chapter will be about how they adapt to these advancements in a show of their scrappiness. Maybe "no shields in hyperspace" isn't a hard scientific limitation, but rather a technology failing that persisted because everyone was so used to being able to hide in hyperspace? Maybe Star Wars capital ships will have to start using air patrols?

The thing with the change here is that it doesn't seem to be an advancement in technology, but a change in the physics.

We've seen ramming happen before in the Star Wars canon. It can be very effective, it's fairly often impossible to destroy a heavy battleship before it ploughs through you. If it was possible, why is nobody lightspeed suicide ramming instead of ordinary suicide ramming, since that's so much more effective? Especially the likes of the separatists that have droid armies.

Ordinary ramming is even slower and more difficult than lightspeed ramming, but it still happens, so it's hard to see how lightspeed ramming is so rare

I can buy that you can't put a hyperdrive on an asteroid, and that you need a big enough ship for it to do so much damage. But not that this is new.

Wait, you thought the intended takeaway was that Luke was right and that the Jedi were stupid and bad? Did you fall asleep during the scene where he gets explicitly rebuked for his way of thinking?

Well, there's no real counterpoint made.

Rey only learns about their failures from Luke, and is eventually convinced to abandon him

Then Yoda turns up, but his lesson isn't about the worth of the Jedi, it's 'relax, Rey can learn what not to do from your bad example,'

Then, Luke's final sacrifice feels more like a redemption. He's apologising to Leia and Ben, and then dying without teaching anything except the legacy of failure. It feels like a 'redemption for my mistakes' moment rather than a 'reaffirming the value of the Jedi' moment.

Mightymosy

2018-02-25, 01:46 PM

You know, a cloaking device would have been REALLY useful on a smuggler's ship.

Makes you wonder why Han never installed one.
Maybe they were not supposed to exist before Holdo's secret engineer team invented them?

Re:Luke and Yoda

Not that Yoda had always been right or anything, but his words to Luke don't really make any sense at all.
Like that the hardest thing for a teacher is that their pupils will at one time surpass them?
Did he not watch? Luke was not a teacher to Rey.
And what about that crap force lightning the tree?
Isnt that
A) Sith Stuff
B) impossibe when you're dead? No?? Then how about using that on a couple New Empire soldiers please? Pretty please? No??? Didnt think so....

This movie is so much out of place, it's too hard for me to stop ranting about it.

By the way, can anyone please repost this hilarious screen with Luke and Ben ("I can't kill my father but...")
I need to make a "Not our Luke" shirt out of that

ETA:

I don't think that i'll ever understand people thinking that the New trilogy is trying to kill the past.

The entire message of the film is about how important it is to learn from the lessons of the past and build on them.

The guy saying kill the past is the villain who's whole thing is not learning and growing properly.

Ok, how about an example?
Who is learning a lesson from the Star Wars past and builds upon it?

pendell

2018-02-25, 04:53 PM

May be relevant: A military analysis of the last Jedi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqLQvTbo-Y) (Or: Why is everyone so incompetent?)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-25, 05:39 PM

And what about that crap force lightning the tree?
Isnt that
A) Sith Stuff
B) impossibe when you're dead? No?? Then how about using that on a couple New Empire soldiers please? Pretty please? No??? Didnt think so....

This movie is so much out of place, it's too hard for me to stop ranting about it.
Luke, getting fried by Sidious: Father! Help me!!!
Vader, looks back and forth.
Luke: Father! Please!!
Ghost of Obi-Wan, sighs: Don't worry Luke, I got this. *shoots lightning at the emperor, sending Sidious tumbling down the shaft*

By the way, can anyone please repost this hilarious screen with Luke and Ben ("I can't kill my father but...")
I need to make a "Not our Luke" shirt out of that
As you wish...
https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/55/36/61b2947bd99beb271719bf91a7d6fc70.jpg

I also found this one as well...

https://i.redd.it/gdltkafjp7701.png

@Pendell: Thanks for posting, should be an interesting watch.

Frozen_Feet

2018-02-25, 05:40 PM

That was a good video, though one point is something I feel the movie itself makes:

"Some armsdealer must be making a killing, scamming the First Order and the Resistance out of their money."

Isn't this what the hacker guy basically says? Add to that his opinion (paraphrased): "Today they blow you up, tomorrow you blow them up, business as usual, no hard feelings." Seems he's implicitly aware that some people just want this conflict going to make money on it. Which would be a depressing yet realistic answer to "where are all the other Republic fleets?" They're sitting on their arses because the nations they belong to now see the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance as two Third World countries fighting each other. Their leaders are content to just let them go at it and sell their military surpluss to whoever is losing at the time, to keep the blood and the money flowing. Would also serve as explanation for why the Resistance will have a fighting chance again in the next movie...

Sapphire Guard

2018-02-25, 06:44 PM

Thing about that is, there was no war for arms dealers to make a killing off.

Starkiller Base destroys the previously non hostile Republic Fleet and then is destroyed. There's no war that would support a casino's worth of arms dealers.

Frozen_Feet

2018-02-25, 07:38 PM

Only if you completely ignore any lead-up phase to having the Starkiller base, or the Resistance fleet, to begin with. War profiteering starts when the sides are preparing for conflict, not only when there is already open conflict.

The video notes that the First Order is a subset of a larger group of Imperial remnants, just as the Resistance was poorly supported sub-faction of the New Republic. And they were, obviously, preceded by the Empire versus Rebels, who in turn were preceded by Republic versus the Federation. The Galaxy has been seeing consistent enough warfare for war profiteers for over five decades.

Thrudd

2018-02-25, 08:06 PM

Further, Han in the Falcon pulling off a stunt that no one else in no other ship could pull off is a big part of what he does. He was on a short list of people that could shake the Imperials in New Hope, He lost the Imperils with Vader personally in pursuit, navigating an asteroid field that should have been impossible, we are told, and then ditched them with a maneuver that was evidently so insane and unlikely to work the imperials were trying to figure out how a ship that small could possibly disappear cause it was too small for a cloaking device.

Decades later he's picked up one more trick that he thinks he and his ship can pull off? and it's long odds and were told that up front but it works? See, I can buy that cause it's Han and The Falcon doing it, and it's implied to be something a lesser ship or pilot just, flat, could, not, do.

The sequence would have been improved if they had sent multiple ships with Han to attempt the maneuver, and then we'd see the rest of them either slamming into the planet or the shield to show why people don't just do that all the time. It's easy to become accustomed to the heroes always being successful, so it's important for the filmmakers to put their accomplishments in perspective. When the setting is closer to the real-world, viewers already know what's possible, for the most part, so this isn't needed. In a fantasy setting, there's no context to know what is normal and what isn't in regards to magic and fictional technology.

I agree about the hyperspace ram. The writers are just not thinking things through when they come up with these ideas. If they absolutely needed to do this, there should have been an on-screen discussion about the possibility prior to Holdo's maneuver - like someone could have suggested using one of the other ships that were running out of fuel as a suicide ram (why the f*** wouldn't they?), and someone else would explain why it won't work barring some kind of one-in-a-million miracle. Then later, when we see what Holdo's doing, everyone will think "no way...", but maybe she closes her eyes and calls on the force (because you don't need training to do that now!), and it works.

But really, the whole chase scenario of TLJ was ill-conceived.

Peelee

2018-02-25, 08:22 PM

since planets like Coruscant must have tons of people jumping in and out every moment, I don't think all objects interact with hyperspace equally.

I'm tempted to quote Douglas Adams' "you may think it's a long way down to the chemist's, but that's peanuts compared to space" speech, but i think I'll go with an astronomer whose name I forget, and whose quote I'm probably wording wrong, but the message is still on point:

"I like huge numbers, so of course I was interested in space. Because in space, numbers get ridiculously large ridiculously fast."

Psyren

2018-02-25, 09:22 PM

Oh hooray, we've abandoned the Mace Windu pretense for more useless whining about TLJ :smallannoyed:

And what about that crap force lightning the tree?
Isnt that
A) Sith Stuff
B) impossibe when you're dead? No?? Then how about using that on a couple New Empire soldiers please? Pretty please? No??? Didnt think so....

It's a Jedi temple isn't it? It's plausible that a Force Ghost could do more to affect the real world there than they usually can elsewhere. *points at sig*

Mightymosy

2018-02-26, 01:33 AM

Oh hooray, we've abandoned the Mace Windu pretense for more useless whining about TLJ :smallannoyed:

It's a Jedi temple isn't it? It's plausible that a Force Ghost could do more to affect the real world there than they usually can elsewhere. *points at sig*

Sorry, you're right, we're getting offtopic! Let's go back to Revenge of the Sith.

So, right after the Mace Windu incident, can someone explain why Anakin is NOT blasted by a hundred ghosts of Jedi past when he invades THE Jedi temple? You know, the big and important one? Where he ruthlessly slaughter the young Jedi children?

is it because ALL Jedi of the past sucked and we should burn their memory? learn from their mistakes to build upon it still use the force to lift rocks (just, you know, without as much training as before)?

Kyberwulf

2018-02-26, 01:50 AM

Yeah Macy had pappy. You guys to remember that Ani can see into the Future. He saw Pappy getting chopped. Pappy is more then willing to risk it to get the biscuit. Anything less and I am sure it wouldn't play out like it did.

On the whole who would win in a fight? I think pappy would. The light side is too far diminished and the dark side is to apexed. Would be a cool fight non.

hamishspence

2018-02-26, 02:11 AM

can someone explain why Anakin is NOT blasted by a hundred ghosts of Jedi past when he invades THE Jedi temple? You know, the big and important one? Where he ruthlessly slaughter the young Jedi children?

is it because ALL Jedi of the past sucked and we should burn their memory? learn from their mistakes to build upon it still use the force to lift rocks (just, you know, without as much training as before)?

Apparently, it's because the vast majority of Jedi never become Force Ghosts in the first place. TCW Season 6 showed that Qui-Gon had (partially - he's not as good at manifesting as Obi-Wan and Yoda turned out to be) learned the secret - and Yoda travels to the people who taught Qui-Gon the secret, to gain permission to be taught it.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/force-priestesses

Once he has done so, Qui-Gon spends the next few years between ROTS and ANH teaching him and Obi-Wan.

Mechalich

2018-02-26, 02:30 AM

Sorry, you're right, we're getting offtopic! Let's go back to Revenge of the Sith.

So, right after the Mace Windu incident, can someone explain why Anakin is NOT blasted by a hundred ghosts of Jedi past when he invades THE Jedi temple? You know, the big and important one? Where he ruthlessly slaughter the young Jedi children?

is it because ALL Jedi of the past sucked and we should burn their memory? learn from their mistakes to build upon it still use the force to lift rocks (just, you know, without as much training as before)?

Force ghosts are weird. There are no concrete rules.

It was generally posited for years that Jedi who died in touch with the Force achieved some measure of 'oneness' with the Force like some kind of Buddhist Nirvana state and moved on from the physical realm. Contacting them was an act of touching the Force, but they weren't necessarily physically present in any way. Hypothetically it might be that Force ghosts are invoked by the living as a sort of personal manifestation and therefore they are drawing on the invoker's powers. So in TLJ it's actually Luke who blasts the tree with lightning and not Yoda in some sort of weird manifested subconscious way or something.

There's a much better understanding of how Sith Spirits work compared to force ghosts, and tossing around a little lightning is nothing on their scale of EU shenanigans. However, Sith Spirits are more like traditional horror story creatures: they tend to be confined to a very specific location (usually their tomb) and have limited awareness of things like the passage of time.

Regardless of the lack of ghosts, the Jedi Temple was not defenseless. It even had a special Jedi sub-group (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Temple_Guard) dedicated to guarding it, and Anakin fought and killed multiple Jedi Masters during the attack. This is actually why Anakin's presence at least kind of mattered. Jedi sought to confront him rather than flee, and a significantly greater number of Jedi might have escaped if he had not overwhelmed key masters - notably Cin Drallig (who is the one seen being killed in the holofootage Obi-Wan recovers) who had command of the temple's defense - during the fighting.

factotum

2018-02-26, 02:36 AM

You know, a cloaking device would have been REALLY useful on a smuggler's ship.

Makes you wonder why Han never installed one.

The captain of the Star Destroyer that Han attaches the Falcon to in ESB says, "A ship that small couldn't have a cloaking device"--which is presumably why Han never fitted one.

Metahuman1

2018-02-26, 02:40 AM

The captain of the Star Destroyer that Han attaches the Falcon to in ESB says, "A ship that small couldn't have a cloaking device"--which is presumably why Han never fitted one.

Precisely.

Lethologica

2018-02-26, 02:47 AM

The captain of the Star Destroyer that Han attaches the Falcon to in ESB says, "A ship that small couldn't have a cloaking device"--which is presumably why Han never fitted one.
Which must have changed in the intervening years, since the shuttles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/U-55_orbital_loadlifter) are smaller than the Falcon.

Metahuman1

2018-02-26, 05:13 AM

Which must have changed in the intervening years, since the shuttles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/U-55_orbital_loadlifter) are smaller than the Falcon.

Yes, Hodo does mention something about it being secret new tech or something. Heaven's knows were she got it but ok, I'll buy that in the intervening decades between Empire and LJ, that that's a new tech advancement.

That the First Order are able to push a button and defeat. (I have to think that even if they were not tipped off, Phasma or someone would have made them scan with that button to beat cloaking devices pushed, just to be sure. Or that Snoke would have done it if he'd lived because he'd sense them with the force. Leia if no one else initially. )

Meaning the devices are small enough to go in the Falcon, just in time to be literally 100% useless.

Psyren

2018-02-26, 10:33 AM

So, right after the Mace Windu incident, can someone explain why Anakin is NOT blasted by a hundred ghosts of Jedi past when he invades THE Jedi temple? You know, the big and important one? Where he ruthlessly slaughter the young Jedi children?

The one located in downtown hyper-metropolis Coruscant you mean? If I had to hazard a couple of guesses, I'd say (a) that location was chosen for political expedience moreso than anything to do with the Force, and (b) that the tree on Ahch-To was an inanimate object rather than a Sith. (At least, it was the last time I checked, but I haven't rewatched that scene in a while so the tree may have gotten a backstory by now.)

Again though, I am not one to defend Lucas' questionable prequel decisions.

Mightymosy

2018-02-26, 11:01 AM

Luke, getting fried by Sidious: Father! Help me!!!
Vader, looks back and forth.
Luke: Father! Please!!
Ghost of Obi-Wan, sighs: Don't worry Luke, I got this. *shoots lightning at the emperor, sending Sidious tumbling down the shaft*

As you wish...
https://media0dk-a.akamaihd.net/55/36/61b2947bd99beb271719bf91a7d6fc70.jpg

I also found this one as well...

https://i.redd.it/gdltkafjp7701.png

@Pendell: Thanks for posting, should be an interesting watch.

Thanks! The second one is also great!

Devonix

2018-02-26, 12:27 PM

Thanks! The second one is also great!

For people saying Luke never contemplated killing vader... well I guess this scene never happened. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4441c7c83704763e43e5477be5369c17.webp

S@tanicoaldo

2018-02-26, 12:46 PM

As if old people were always consistent with their youth ideals. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cizak

2018-02-26, 12:59 PM

For people saying Luke never contemplated killing vader... well I guess this scene never happened.

I started writing a sarcastic response where I took the role of a TLJ!Luke basher and ranted about how things like nuance, context and character flaws should stay out of my fiction, but then I just realised... The core reason I've never been able to sympathize with these people since the release of TLJ is simply because they are always describing a boring character. There're never any interesting character traits of OT!Luke's that are being defended when they rail against TLJ!Luke and how it's impossible he's the same man. When you watch the OT, Luke is a fine character with some interesting bits, but he's never painted in a good light by the people who hate his TLJ portrayal.

Wow, I can't believe me it took me this long to realise. I think I can finally be at peace with this whole thing now.

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-26, 02:30 PM

*looks at people bashing their heads again about TFA/TLJ*

God, now I remember why I stepped away from most SW threads in the recent weeks. I'm still recovering from all the new trilogy shenanigans and whatnot. :smallfrown:

------

@About Falcon's hide checks:

I think it's pretty much on his character to never bother about upgrading the Falcon's stealth systems. I mean, he is the kind of guy who lies to your face on a poker match while also showing off his hand. And tricks you into losing, somehow. Besides, isn't that the whole reason of the secret compartments in the ship? I think he was pretty much accustomed to get the Falcon inspected, and a ship with a cloaking device is much much much more suspicious than one who doesn't have it, right?

Mightymosy

2018-02-26, 03:27 PM

May be relevant: A military analysis of the last Jedi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqLQvTbo-Y) (Or: Why is everyone so incompetent?)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thanks, also a good video.

I started writing a sarcastic response where I took the role of a TLJ!Luke basher and ranted about how things like nuance, context and character flaws should stay out of my fiction, but then I just realised... The core reason I've never been able to sympathize with these people since the release of TLJ is simply because they are always describing a boring character. There're never any interesting character traits of OT!Luke's that are being defended when they rail against TLJ!Luke and how it's impossible he's the same man. When you watch the OT, Luke is a fine character with some interesting bits, but he's never painted in a good light by the people who hate his TLJ portrayal.

Wow, I can't believe me it took me this long to realise. I think I can finally be at peace with this whole thing now.

What doesn "boring" or "interesting" mean for you? I mean, what does a character need to have to be either?

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-26, 03:46 PM

Either the character has to be a complete failure, a quitter, and an almost-child killer, or he's boring and uninteresting.

These non-arguments are so tiring. There is no depth here.

The idea that it had to be done the way it was done or else it would be bad is such an unimaginative argument. It also can't be proven, which is convenient as well.

Psyren

2018-02-26, 04:14 PM

The idea that it had to be done the way it was done or else it would be bad is such an unimaginative argument. It also can't be proven, which is convenient as well.

Is there a way that would satisfy you and those like you? Do you buy the premise that Luke had a split-second lapse in judgement that led to Kylo's disillusionment and fall, which subsequently led to his own disillusionment and isolation?

Because if so, then we're just haggling over price (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15723137&postcount=142), and ways to improve that premise are at least worth talking about.

But if not, and you all simply want to throw the whole thing out while ranting all the while, then there is no point to debating anything; you'd be better served just writing off Star Wars in its current form and waiting for it to change hands again a decade or three down the line.

Mightymosy

2018-02-26, 06:05 PM

It's interesting that you quote the Giant there.
Because, no matter what he says about logical plotholes being not so important, he does an AMAZING job of avoiding plotholes!
Seriously, for the length the Order of the Stick has, it has an abysmal number of logical plotholes.
So when he says plotholes are not too bad for a story, you have to take it with a grain of salt, because his work simply is no good example to prove that a story with a lot of plot holes can still be good.
I don't know what the right word for this is. "Hypocrite" comes to mind, but it doesn't seem appropriate really.

The Giant says " I care more about the emotional content of the story than I do about plausibility."
Easy to say for him when his content is Top AAA+ on both aspects.
Really, if the Giant really only had emotional content going for his story, he would not have the huge success that he has.
Countless people adore OotS because of its technical accuracy (minimum amount of plotholes). Take plausibility and accuracy with regard to continuity away, and you take away a huge reason a lot of people like this story.

It's maybe a bit too much to say this about the Giant from just this quote (especially taking it out of context) - but some people are mistaken about the reasons for their success.

Back to Luke: Yes, there would have been a way I could have been happy with Luke.
HEy, I seriously would have accepted Alzheimer's as a reason why he retreated.

And a while back (in that other thread) LaZodiac wrote up something that came close to being a reasonable story pitch, if I remember right. A story pitch that ended up with a "bad" Luke character arc, but at least it was reasonable.
The problem with the movie is that it is just not reasonable for many of us.
Look at the parody pictures above. They are funny because they make sense. They show something wrong with the movie.

Anyway, did you not want to go back to Mace Windu?
Although I think the Thread Question is pretty answered. He was about to defeat Palpatine, had he not been interrupted......
Is Mace actually confirmed being dead? Anything written in the books about that?

Psyren

2018-02-26, 06:50 PM

Back to Luke: Yes, there would have been a way I could have been happy with Luke.
HEy, I seriously would have accepted Alzheimer's as a reason why he retreated.
...
Look at the parody pictures above. They are funny because they make sense. They show something wrong with the movie.
...
Anyway, did you not want to go back to Mace Windu?

You're right about one thing, I don't know what I was thinking. Carry on and I'll see you in Episode 9.

Cizak

2018-02-26, 08:35 PM

What doesn "boring" or "interesting" mean for you? I mean, what does a character need to have to be either?

Some character flaws and pivotal low/high moments that influence further actions taken by the character is a good way to go. Which OT!Luke definitely has (again, I would consider him a fine character). But as my realization goes, TLJ!Luke bashers never does OT!Luke justice. It's always "OT!Luke was a true paragon of justice who never struggled or swayed from pure heroism". That's boring.

Either the character has to be a complete failure, a quitter, and an almost-child killer, or he's boring and uninteresting.

That's a nice pool of character flaws and pivotal low moments that influence further actions taken by the character, yes. I wouldn't consider those three the only possible ones to give to a character, but I'd be interesting to see how one could write a character around those. Though maybe throw in some more nuance and context.

Look at the parody pictures above. They are funny because they make sense.

Hmm. You're saying they're not funny because they're totally devoid of any context and nuance provided by the films they're supposedly critiquing? I mean, that's why I laugh at them.

Peelee

2018-02-26, 11:06 PM

Some character flaws and pivotal low/high moments that influence further actions taken by the character is a good way to go. Which OT!Luke definitely has (again, I would consider him a fine character). But as my realization goes, TLJ!Luke bashers never does OT!Luke justice. It's always "OT!Luke was a true paragon of justice who never struggled or swayed from pure heroism". That's boring.

There's a significant difference between "OT Luke was a true paragon of justice who never struggled or swayed from pure heroism" and "OT Luke already faced his demons in the form of 'i must destroy this great evil, no matter the cost,' and then apparently had to do it again but also apparently didn't learn anything from the first time he did it and it changed his entire worldview in such a drastic way that the character is virtually unrecognizable. And all that despite the first time he did it, it was while facing down Darth Vader and the Emperor while watching the Rebellion seemingly come crashing down around him, yet that was apparently not as life-changing and impactful as a teenager looking scared."

What's boring is a filmmaker watching a movie, seeing a character deal with a conflict, and then saying, "the sequel should have that same conflict but change the character in the completely opposite direction he's been going in." Of course, that's just my opinion.

Metahuman1

2018-02-27, 12:00 AM

There's a significant difference between "OT Luke was a true paragon of justice who never struggled or swayed from pure heroism" and "OT Luke already faced his demons in the form of 'i must destroy this great evil, no matter the cost,' and then apparently had to do it again but also apparently didn't learn anything from the first time he did it and it changed his entire worldview in such a drastic way that the character is virtually unrecognizable. And all that despite the first time he did it, it was while facing down Darth Vader and the Emperor while watching the Rebellion seemingly come crashing down around him, yet that was apparently not as life-changing and impactful as a teenager looking scared."

What's boring is a filmmaker watching a movie, seeing a character deal with a conflict, and then saying, "the sequel should have that same conflict but change the character in the completely opposite direction he's been going in." Of course, that's just my opinion.

Precisely.

Worse still, because of Luke having that "Flaw" of a "split second lapse in judgment." not only are we never going to have Jedi on screen now ever again, but he's personally responsible for The First Order, The Death of The New Republic, The Death of Han, every bad thing that's happened to the Galaxy since the end of Return Of The Jedi is Luke Skywalkers personal fault, for a flaw he didn't display before a flash back in this movie that comes completely out of left field.

The intention was clear, we want to make sure the audience knows that Luke, in our estimation, sucks. That he's a bad hero, so were going to take away all his accomplishments and successes and retroactively turn them into failures. Because that's what this did.

You wanted Ben to fall and have it be Lukes fault in part? Ok, see, there's a way to do that that doesn't make him awful. Let Luke spend time exposing Ben to The Dark Side because he's trying to teach him how to recognize it and steer clear of it. But because he's an inexperienced teacher, and teaching is a different animal from learning to do it yourself, he makes an error in judgment in terms of the amount of exposure. This corrupts Ben enough that Ben ends up getting on Snoke's Radar, and Snoke finishes Corrupting him, but does it subtly, over time, taking advantage of the fact that Luke believes there are no strong Dark Side Users left, because the last 2 in the Galaxy died in front of him.

And then one night, After months or years of corruption and manipulation, Ben strikes. He takes Luke out with bombs or something that doesn't allow Luke to fight back directly, something not dangerous until Ben adds a little dark side power too the action. And then uses the fact that with Luke out for the count, he's the best duelist at the Academy to kill all who don't swear Loyalty too him.

Luke is flawed, he underestimates the Dangers of the Darkside exposure because he underestimates the chances that there will be anyone actively directing it, for understandable reasons, and overestimated one student of many's progress in building there defenses against such a thing, because this is his first batch of students, making a mistake or too is plausible. He's also flawed in a way that doesn't Undo everything about the character's decades of training and the value there of, the way giving into his fear and lashing out violently at the first inclination of a possible future problem did.

And because Snoke is a touch more directly involved, and because we can make Ben a bit more culpable now while were at it, Yeah, Luke messed up, but he's still left the best person of the 3 because he was the one who had no malice in his intentions, and with a bit more information, would have corrected the matter. Were as Snoke preyed on the situation to create a monster who in turn would create more monsters in order to Oppress and Kill and Destory for him. And Ben gave into his darker Impulses, and did horrible things. Sure, he was manipulated, but hell, you could just add that he's acquired a bit of a taste for the Sadistic. He can be conflicted about it for the first couple of movies, but by the end of episode 8, he can be fully committed to being Dark Side and thus ready to stand as a true antagonist for Rey in the final movie.

Malifice

2018-02-27, 12:08 AM

You know, a cloaking device would have been REALLY useful on a smuggler's ship.

Makes you wonder why Han never installed one.
Maybe they were not supposed to exist before Holdo's secret engineer team invented them?

They didn't. In ESB (after the falcon latches to the Star Destroyer) the Imperial captain states 'No ship that small can have a cloaking device!'

They exist in the OT but only on larger capital ships.

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-27, 11:21 AM

Is there a way that would satisfy you and those like you?
I can't believe I have to entertain this question Psyren.

Do you buy the premise that Luke had a split-second lapse in judgement that led to Kylo's disillusionment and fall, which subsequently led to his own disillusionment and isolation?

Because if so, then we're just haggling over price (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15723137&postcount=142), and ways to improve that premise are at least worth talking about.
Almost killing your sleeping nephew is a serious major lapse in judgement. As I've mentioned before, but I guess one must always have to prove himself to TLJ apologists, I think it would have been sold better if Luke was having a vision of Kylo Ren that seemed so real he thought he was in battle with Kylo (a mysterious figure since he doesn't exist yet) and he ignites his lightsaber, only to come out of the vision and realize he is still standing over Ben, who is now awake and terrified.

The problem with rewriting it that way is that it's an honest mistake, and it can't justify Luke hating himself for decades and resigning himself to death on a distant planet while the Republic gets conquered.

So I'm not sure what to say to you. Are we just haggling over price? I don't know. I think it's a matter of what's reasonable to who. For me, it's unreasonable for Luke to think about killing Ben to the point that he ignites his lightsaber. But then, if he had a good reason to do it, then it's unreasonable for him to dwell on it for so long. It's a lose/lose.

And you may take that as me being unwilling to be satisfied, but I think it's that the writers struggled to get Luke and Ben where they wanted them, and came up with this mess.

But if not, and you all simply want to throw the whole thing out while ranting all the while, then there is no point to debating anything; you'd be better served just writing off Star Wars in its current form and waiting for it to change hands again a decade or three down the line.
I have written Star Wars off, as have many others. I've also mentioned this before as well.

But as my realization goes, TLJ!Luke bashers never does OT!Luke justice. It's always "OT!Luke was a true paragon of justice who never struggled or swayed from pure heroism". That's boring.
Who has said that?? A paragon of justice would not forgive and redeem Darth Vader. He would, you know, make him pay for all the crimes he's committed. Because he's a paragon of justice.

You're straw-manning critics of Luke's characterization pretty hard here. We know Luke struggled. It's one of the points we bring up against Rey. We know that he wasn't perfect. It's the point. He's learned his lessons. He became a hero. Now he's a wretch that forgot himself and here comes Rey to teach him a lesson. Bravo. So clever. The student is teaching the master. Thank you Rian Johnson, your subversion is soo interesting and amazing.

hamishspence

2018-02-27, 11:55 AM

They didn't. In ESB (after the falcon latches to the Star Destroyer) the Imperial captain states 'No ship that small can have a cloaking device!'

They exist in the OT but only on larger capital ships.

In TCW, we see a corvette (still slightly bigger than the Falcon), with one, and, I think, Obi-Wan, saying "Well, no ship this small usually has a cloaking device". And Cad Bane's reward for breaking into the Jedi Temple was, supposedly, a cloaked starfighter. So, while small-ship cloaks are rare and experimental - it's possible that some exist that Needa did not know about.

Psyren

2018-02-27, 12:31 PM

I have written Star Wars off, as have many others.

Whereas I (and "many others" (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/#contentReviews)) are more excited for Star Wars than ever before. I certainly don't want this to be a competition, but if it absolutely must be one, then I'll happily be on the winning side.

Peelee

2018-02-27, 12:56 PM

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-27, 01:44 PM

I have written Star Wars off, as have many others. I've also mentioned this before as well.

I dunno, man. I still enjoy Battefront a lot. That one does count, right? :smallconfused:

No need for only two sides! I, for one, am a hopeless romantic with the Star War; always incredibly eager for the next one, even if I dislike the direction it's heading in and have a lot of specific problems with what I've seen.

Of course, then it gets harder to be a competition. So hey, win-win!

Also, it is not like the first time Star Wars has been desecrated by unimaginative writers too high on their horses to realize their epic failures (that last part, includes Lucas himself).

Also, it's funny Psyren considers himself "winning the contest", when TLJ has the lowest audience score in a SW flick at rottentomatoes, including the prequels. Fake news much? :smalltongue: But yeah, lucky for him, it's not a contest. We are all on the same boat, for better or worse.

Also, I hate Rose. I hate Finn too, but she comes first, because she saved him.

Psyren

2018-02-27, 01:44 PM

No need for only two sides! I, for one, am a hopeless romantic with the Star War; always incredibly eager for the next one, even if I dislike the direction it's heading in and have a lot of specific problems with what I've seen.

Of course, then it gets harder to be a competition. So hey, win-win!

By all means, finance the writing and direction I enjoy :smallbiggrin:

Peelee

2018-02-27, 01:47 PM

By all means, finance the writing and direction I enjoy :smallbiggrin:

Finance? Hell, I dress up as it!

Or, I will, as soon as we finish building it. I've trashed that armor maker to everyone in the local garrison who's asked my thoughts on it. For reals, screw that guy.

Psyren

2018-02-27, 01:49 PM

Also, it's funny Psyren considers himself "winning the contest", when TLJ has the lowest audience score in a SW flick at rottentomatoes, including the prequels. Fake news much? :smalltongue:

My regard for "audience scores" is well-documented in the actual TLJ thread if you're not already up to date on it. There's a reason I deeplinked to the actual tomatometer.

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-27, 02:26 PM

My regard for "audience scores" is well-documented in the actual TLJ thread if you're not already up to date on it. There's a reason I deeplinked to the actual tomatometer.

No offence, but I don't care your regards on anything. At most, it amuses me to contrast opinions in general, but "critic scores" is really a boring science and a silly thing to argue about. Because it's not, y'know, a science :smalltongue:

BTW, are you a critic* or something? This ain't no jab, just curiosity on my part :smallredface:

*As in, you do professional reviews, even if they're on youtube...

Dr.Samurai

2018-02-27, 02:38 PM

Whereas I (and "many others" (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/#contentReviews)) are more excited for Star Wars than ever before. I certainly don't want this to be a competition, but if it absolutely must be one, then I'll happily be on the winning side.
Me, as I write my post: If I say I've written Star Wars off, there is a high probability that Psyren will ignore everything else in my post...
Psyren: *doesn't disappoint*

I dunno, man. I still enjoy Battefront a lot. That one does count, right? :smallconfused:
Maybe it's better if I say I've written off the ST. I've never sat through a movie where I've felt so disconnected from what the director was saying or doing the whole time. Heroes and villains (I use the terms loosely) that can't do anything, messages about heroism and action that don't resonate with me, plots that go nowhere, no connection to the movie before it and no real set up for the movie after it, a theme of waffling back and forth, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. This movie for me was an absolute mess of confusion, and it doesn't leave me excited for what's to come or with high hopes that it will be redeemed. We've seen Abrams behind the wheel already and while TFA wasn't awful, it wasn't exactly stellar either.

Also, it's funny Psyren considers himself "winning the contest", when TLJ has the lowest audience score in a SW flick at rottentomatoes, including the prequels. Fake news much?
Indeed. He only considers positive audience scores, and he dismisses negative audience scores. And then he touts the scores like he's winning.

The reason the prequels did so well is because of the fanbase. The reason TFA did so well is because of the fanbase. TLJ ****s on the fanbase (and so do the defenders of the movie for that matter). It's possible that Disney will just pull a whole new bunch of fans to replace them and the franchise will carry on as strong as it's ever been. Doesn't seem like a good strategy though.

Peelee

2018-02-27, 02:51 PM

I've never sat through a movie where I've felt so disconnected from what the director was saying or doing the whole time.

Oh man, you should watch Santa with Muscles. It is a masterpiece of crap.

Lord Joeltion

2018-02-27, 02:58 PM

Maybe it's better if I say I've written off the ST. I've never sat through a movie where I've felt so disconnected from what the director was saying or doing the whole time. Heroes and villains (I use the terms loosely) that can't do anything, messages about heroism and action that don't resonate with me, plots that go nowhere, no connection to the movie before it and no real set up for the movie after it, a theme of waffling back and forth, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. This movie for me was an absolute mess of confusion, and it doesn't leave me excited for what's to come or with high hopes that it will be redeemed. We've seen Abrams behind the wheel already and while TFA wasn't awful, it wasn't exactly stellar either.

Well, Operation Cinder appears both in TLJ and in Battlefront's story. It includes the "three canons", so there's also that. I feel the same as you. I don't mind the other "EU" the Disney Era has brought up (Rebels, Rogue One); but I really wish the new trilogy is scrapped, eventually.

Indeed. He only considers positive audience scores, and he dismisses negative audience scores. And then he touts the scores like he's winning.

Yeah, I was just poking fun, idk if Psyren got that part of my message; but it was just too easy to let it pass :smallamused:

The reason the prequels did so well is because of the fanbase. The reason TFA did so well is because of the fanbase. TLJ ****s on the fanbase (and so do the defenders of the movie for that matter). It's possible that Disney will just pull a whole new bunch of fans to replace them and the franchise will carry on as strong as it's ever been. Doesn't seem like a good strategy though.

I don't know if it has brought up before, but I heard of about two or three people I know who had never watched SW before and kinda liked the new movies. Then proceeded to dislike the old ones once they watched it, because they found them boring. I think there might be a pattern there (not saying this applies to hardcore fans tho), as if the new movies were purposely devised to attract a new kind of fanbase. It's strange, because the narrative is very much alike* and the aesthetics are so similar. IMHO, it is the spirit what they changed, not too dissimilar to what Bayformers did to my other poor franchise *snif*

Altho we're lucky Abrahams is a way better director/producer than Michael Bay will ever dream to be... :smalleek:

*The prequels attempted the same, but completely changing the narrative instead.

Psyren

2018-02-27, 03:03 PM

No offence, but I don't care your regards on anything.

None taken, and likewise.

Me, as I write my post: If I say I've written Star Wars off, there is a high probability that Psyren will ignore everything else in my post...
Psyren: *doesn't disappoint*

Is there literally any point to discussing the rest? We've made it pretty clear there's an impassable... impasse, here.

Lethologica

2018-02-27, 03:05 PM

Consider that Metacritic's user score of 4.5/10 features approximately 30-35% of users rating the movie 0 out of 10 (http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-viii---the-last-jedi/user-reviews?sort-by=score&num_items=100&page=22). There are also a bunch of 10 reviews that said "This movie was a 9 but I'm giving it a 10 to fight all the brigading," so it's a totally inorganic score all around. By contrast, comScore audience polling (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score) suggests that people came out of theaters liking The Last Jedi very slightly less than The Force Awakens, with 89% positive responses ('Excellent' or 'Very Good') vs. 92% positive, both very strong marks.

Fanboys have never been fond of general audience reactions as a measure of a film's quality or appeal, which is why, for example, the prequels are the fanboy standard of bad filmmaking despite solid box-office numbers and audience reactions for all three films. And no one has ever really trusted self-selected online polling as a tool for measuring the general audience--remember when Ron Paul won every Republican primary debate according to the internet? So when fanboys now argue from self-selected online polling of general audience reactions to The Last Jedi, I have to wonder what they're really trying to say.

Peelee

2018-02-27, 03:14 PM

And no one has ever really trusted self-selected online polling as a tool for measuring the general audience--remember when Ron Paul won every Republican primary debate according to the internet?

...so much I'd like to say here but can't.

Devonix

2018-02-27, 04:37 PM

It's usually a bad idea going by audience ratings bon those sites since they are usually skewed by things other than actual critical thinking.

As well as people rating something high or low because of a personal investment regardless of quality.

Audience reviews are also limited because since they are optional you only get extreems

Since critics have to see the films you usually get a less biased opinion.

Amazon

2018-02-27, 04:47 PM

Didn't a bunch of nerdy, racist and misogynist guys used bots because the new star wars has a woman and a black man as the leads?

Devonix

2018-02-27, 04:52 PM

Didn't a bunch of nerdy, racist and misogynist guys used bots because the new star wars has a woman and a black man as the leads?

There were plenty of people with legitimate reasons to give bad reviews to it. Unfortunately because of how it works their legitimate complaints are added together with trolls for the final score.

Amazon

2018-02-27, 04:56 PM

There were plenty of people with legitimate reasons to give bad reviews to it. Unfortunately because of how it works their legitimate complaints are added together with trolls for the final score.

Doesn't this action of deliberate manipulation kind on invalidate that score?

Lethologica

2018-02-27, 04:59 PM

Only a little bit. But that's because such scores have very little validity in the first place.

factotum

2018-02-27, 05:15 PM

In TCW, we see a corvette (still slightly bigger than the Falcon), with one

If by corvette we're talking the same CR90 Corellian corvette that Leia was aboard at the beginning of Episode IV, those things are *much* bigger than the Falcon. The official length of a YT-1300 freighter is 34.5m, while a CR90 is 150m, more than four times the size.

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 12:00 AM

Didn't a bunch of nerdy, racist and misogynist guys used bots because the new star wars has a woman and a black man as the leads?

Depends on your definition of a bunch. If you mean 20 or 30-ish out of 10,000s (I.E., a fraction of a fraction of 1%. Thus, not significant.) then yes.

More importantly, the thousands of people giving it 10 out of 10's to combat this because the people who made the movie or agree with the politics of the people who made the move, and professional critics who saw there professional reputation's taking a massive hit because, again, for not good reasons they had given the movie rave reviews before the general public got to see it to build up hype for it so that it could make money, and then people got in, saw it, and were pissed that they had been lead to believe it was going to be a much, much, much, MUCH better movie then it actually was, made a stink about it, blowing the numbers out of proportion and trying to claim that 100% of all negative reviews were this, and that no one anywhere in the world had any legitimate grievances with the movie at all what so ever. Because if they acknowledge legitimate grievances, they might have to not make the rest of the movies were ever going to get fit this new mold instead of actually making some effort, putting there own personal politics aside, and trying to make good, creative, interesting movies and characters that would require effort.

So those people have actually served to drastically weight the score into being FAR more positive and favorable to the movie then it currently is.

And I say this as someone whom is not Racist, not misogynist, and very much has no end of issues with this movie.

Keltest

2018-02-28, 12:39 AM

Depends on your definition of a bunch. If you mean 20 or 30-ish out of 10,000s (I.E., a fraction of a fraction of 1%. Thus, not significant.) then yes.

More importantly, the thousands of people giving it 10 out of 10's to combat this because the people who made the movie or agree with the politics of the people who made the move, and professional critics who saw there professional reputation's taking a massive hit because, again, for not good reasons they had given the movie rave reviews before the general public got to see it to build up hype for it so that it could make money, and then people got in, saw it, and were pissed that they had been lead to believe it was going to be a much, much, much, MUCH better movie then it actually was, made a stink about it, blowing the numbers out of proportion and trying to claim that 100% of all negative reviews were this, and that no one anywhere in the world had any legitimate grievances with the movie at all what so ever. Because if they acknowledge legitimate grievances, they might have to not make the rest of the movies were ever going to get fit this new mold instead of actually making some effort, putting there own personal politics aside, and trying to make good, creative, interesting movies and characters that would require effort.

So those people have actually served to drastically weight the score into being FAR more positive and favorable to the movie then it currently is.

And I say this as someone whom is not Racist, not misogynist, and very much has no end of issues with this movie.

I mean, 20 people who each have a bot that makes 100 accounts will add up to 2000 votes, which is very statistically significant. That's the whole point of using a bot: you can raise a lot of stink for only one person.

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 01:07 AM

So your telling me you think every single troll has 100 Bot accounts spamming it?

That's, frankly, ludicrous, cause if that was the case, frankly, they'd be able to get those accounts spamming a LOT more then what you just described. I'd be amazed if at those kinds of numbers they didn't get it into the single digits on the Tomato Meter.

And worse, again, you are discounting both that 1: There are a ton of comments of people stating they either were going to rate it lower, or weren't going to rate it at all, but are here to rate it 10 out of 10 now because they heard a bunch of Nazi's and KKK members and what not are on here in utterly ludicrous numbers to vote the film down artificially.

Got news, that's incredibly artificial, and those aren't getting removed by RT, but the down votes ARE being removed, RT have copped to that much that they remove artificial down votes, but I've hear not a peep about removing the artificial up votes on the matter.

And your discounting that 2: Even if I say ok, your numbers make sense, that there is NOTHING stopping people of the opposite persuasion from doing PRECISELY the same thing! There is nothing stopping the thousand and thousands of people going out there and making 1 bot a piece and having it post 100 times as you described, and making tens of thousands of up votes to drastically and artificially inflate the numbers in favor of the movie. Hell, there are a whole lot of industry professionals that would have a motive to do so because it would bolster there position as well to do so.

Just like with what they've been doing with trying to paint a tiny group of trolls whom are a fraction of a fraction of 1% of the people who spent money on the movie as being perfect encapsulations of everyone who has a problem with or is in any way critical of the movie, and every criticism on it's own merits. Which they have objectively done repeatedly at this point.

The best case TLJ can hope for is that that audience score is organic, because if were assuming an inorganic score, the numbers suggest strongly that the inorganic score is substantially to the movies favor, and it would be even more poorly rated than it already is on audience score.

When the best you can hope for is that a 48% approval rating is entirely accurate, that a grade that would be an F or F- in pretty much every country on the planet is actually 100% fair and accurate, when that is your best case for your movie, your movie, frankly, is probably bad, and is definably poorly regarded on the whole by the general audience.

Lethologica

2018-02-28, 01:17 AM

Depends on your definition of a bunch. If you mean 20 or 30-ish out of 10,000s (I.E., a fraction of a fraction of 1%. Thus, not significant.) then yes.

More importantly, the thousands of people giving it 10 out of 10's to combat this because the people who made the movie or agree with the politics of the people who made the move, and professional critics who saw there professional reputation's taking a massive hit because, again, for not good reasons they had given the movie rave reviews before the general public got to see it to build up hype for it so that it could make money, and then people got in, saw it, and were pissed that they had been lead to believe it was going to be a much, much, much, MUCH better movie then it actually was, made a stink about it, blowing the numbers out of proportion and trying to claim that 100% of all negative reviews were this, and that no one anywhere in the world had any legitimate grievances with the movie at all what so ever. Because if they acknowledge legitimate grievances, they might have to not make the rest of the movies were ever going to get fit this new mold instead of actually making some effort, putting there own personal politics aside, and trying to make good, creative, interesting movies and characters that would require effort.

So those people have actually served to drastically weight the score into being FAR more positive and favorable to the movie then it currently is.

And I say this as someone whom is not Racist, not misogynist, and very much has no end of issues with this movie.
I do agree that actively racist/misogynist/whatever hostility is unlikely to have been the dominant effect, compared to generalized nerd rage. Neither of the effects you comment on are particularly significant, since self-selected online polling is bulls*** to begin with.

But out of curiosity, did you count? Because you seem to be at least in part using my own comments as evidentiary backing, despite my having reached a substantially different conclusion. While I admit to not reading every user review I came across, I at least put in some modest amount of effort to assess the extent to which user scores had been distorted by reactionary voting, and the overall direction of that distortion. What you seem to be doing is making a massive pile of largely speculative assertions to validate your own reaction.

Mechalich

2018-02-28, 01:38 AM

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 01:40 AM

I do agree that actively racist/misogynist/whatever hostility is unlikely to have been the dominant effect, compared to generalized nerd rage. Neither of the effects you comment on are particularly significant, since self-selected online polling is bulls*** to begin with.

But out of curiosity, did you count? Because you seem to be at least in part using my own comments as evidentiary backing, despite my having reached a substantially different conclusion. While I admit to not reading every user review I came across, I at least put in some modest amount of effort to assess the extent to which user scores had been distorted by reactionary voting, and the overall direction of that distortion. What you seem to be doing is making a massive pile of largely speculative assertions to validate your own reaction.

I was responding too Keltest.

That said,

The first thing I did was take into account that RT have stated they are going after the down votes that they don't feel are valid, but made no such statement that I am aware of that they are doing the same for reactionary Up Voting. This means that by default the numbers are probably inflated. More on that below.

The second thing I did was look at the numbers the person I was responding too proposed, and pointed out that that was frankly, rather bloated looking based on the actual final result. More so since, again, RT are going after that side of it specifically.

The third thing I did was point out that his post seems to assume the position that only 1 side is doing it. That there is no possibility, even if it's as easy as he claims, that other people on the opposite side of the matter could and probably, if it's so easy, are, doing the same thing in reverse. And that if that were true it would mean the numbers are even more artificially inflated in the movies favor still. And then I pointed out that out of the 2 sides, only 1 has people with a professional and monetary interest to do such a thing.

And from there I followed that to the logical conclusion.

factotum

2018-02-28, 02:04 AM

Lethologica

2018-02-28, 02:18 AM

There are bad user reviews of TLJ in multiple places, not just Rotten Tomatoes. The metacritic user score is terrible, the imdb user score is weak (a 7.5, which is not a good audience score on imdb), and there's all sorts of starkly negative commentary all over the internet. While the backlash to the film is in many ways vastly out of proportion to how bad the film is - TLJ is very strong in pretty much all technical categories, problems are primarily limited to storytelling and it's relationship to the broader franchise - any reasonable reading of the reaction reveals that there's a massive divergence between how critics rated the film and how fans reacted to it.

Also, with regard to accusations of bots producing and artificially poor reactions: poor fan reaction has now been confirmed by the box office. TLJ collapsed after the initial buzz from the Holidays (and due to a quirk of the calendar TLJ began it's run with two holiday weekends). It's total multiplier - a reflection of the total gross compared to the opening weekend - is going to come in around 2.8. That's a terrible number for a Star Wars film (Rogue One's is 3.4, TFA's is 3.8) and worse than comparable grossing films like Jurassic World or the first Avengers film. It is now fairly likely that Black Panther will beat TLJ's total domestic and worldwide grosses.

Interesting fact, for the past three years (2015, 2016, and 2017) a Star Wars film has been the highest grossing movie in the United States. There's a Star Wars film coming out this year too. Chances that Solo will make it a four-peat are extremely slim.
I reviewed Metacritic user scores in my previous comment, so the fact that it's not solely a RT phenomenon is unsurprising, and is encompassed by what I said about self-selected online polling, compared to the polls of theater-goers conducted . The box office point is a stronger one, however. Given the corresponding overall box office drop-off between IV and V, it's too bad there isn't a good way to compare weekly dropoff since the theater distribution model was so different back then. (But I don't want to end this comment on that nitpick, so let me say I broadly agree that there's a substantial difference between critic and fan reactions).

I was responding too Keltest.

That said,

The first thing I did was take into account that RT have stated they are going after the down votes that they don't feel are valid, but made no such statement that I am aware of that they are doing the same for reactionary Up Voting. This means that by default the numbers are probably inflated. More on that below.

The second thing I did was look at the numbers the person I was responding too proposed, and pointed out that that was frankly, rather bloated looking based on the actual final result. More so since, again, RT are going after that side of it specifically.

The third thing I did was point out that his post seems to assume the position that only 1 side is doing it. That there is no possibility, even if it's as easy as he claims, that other people on the opposite side of the matter could and probably, if it's so easy, are, doing the same thing in reverse. And that if that were true it would mean the numbers are even more artificially inflated in the movies favor still. And then I pointed out that out of the 2 sides, only 1 has people with a professional and monetary interest to do such a thing.

And from there I followed that to the logical conclusion.
RT has stated that they take the authenticity of their votes seriously, but also that they don't see unusual user activity. This was specifically in response to suggestions of bot-voting, and not to reactionary voting in general. So unless I'm missing something, they haven't said anything about any other kind of distortion--which is reasonable, as those are completely different kinds of behaviors that are much harder to detect and much more difficult to resolve even if detected.

“The authenticity of our critic and user scores is very important to us and as a course of regular business, we have a team of security, network, social and database experts who closely monitor our platforms,” a spokesperson for Rotten Tomatoes told Quartz. “They haven’t seen any unusual user activity.

“For Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we have seen an uptick in people posting written user reviews, as fans are very passionate about this movie and the franchise. The number of written reviews being posted by fans is comparable to Star Wars: The Force Awakens,” the spokesperson added.

(Source (https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomatoes-score-for-the-last-jedi-may-be-rigged/))[/quote]
And while one side has a professional and monetary interest to mess with user reviews, they also have a professional and monetary interest not to mess with user reviews. So the presumption of your conclusion's logic is rather premature, leaving me to look once again at the lack of evidence for it.

jayem

2018-02-28, 02:52 AM

Thinking about it didn't Darth Maul's ship have a cloaking device.
Though at that point you would think Smuggling would tend to the big ships (unless it otherwise costed more, or there were issues landing).

Actually with space is big you'd expect Big ships carrying smuggle from some kind of pirate base to pirate base (which through some means can look after itself, and be really obscure), which never go near law enforcement carrying anything. Cloaked ships to act as meeting points for these (they could assess the situation cloaked) where they can't be given the bases co-ordinates, and local customers. Then if you don't have reliable access to the planet, or the customers can't deal with the stuff direct, you need the millenium falcon's for the last 10-billion miles.

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 03:54 AM

I reviewed Metacritic user scores in my previous comment, so the fact that it's not solely a RT phenomenon is unsurprising, and is encompassed by what I said about self-selected online polling, compared to the polls of theater-goers conducted . The box office point is a stronger one, however. Given the corresponding overall box office drop-off between IV and V, it's too bad there isn't a good way to compare weekly dropoff since the theater distribution model was so different back then. (But I don't want to end this comment on that nitpick, so let me say I broadly agree that there's a substantial difference between critic and fan reactions).

RT has stated that they take the authenticity of their votes seriously, but also that they don't see unusual user activity. This was specifically in response to suggestions of bot-voting, and not to reactionary voting in general. So unless I'm missing something, they haven't said anything about any other kind of distortion--which is reasonable, as those are completely different kinds of behaviors that are much harder to detect and much more difficult to resolve even if detected.

“The authenticity of our critic and user scores is very important to us and as a course of regular business, we have a team of security, network, social and database experts who closely monitor our platforms,” a spokesperson for Rotten Tomatoes told Quartz. “They haven’t seen any unusual user activity.

“For Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we have seen an uptick in people posting written user reviews, as fans are very passionate about this movie and the franchise. The number of written reviews being posted by fans is comparable to Star Wars: The Force Awakens,” the spokesperson added.

(Source (https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomatoes-score-for-the-last-jedi-may-be-rigged/))
And while one side has a professional and monetary interest to mess with user reviews, they also have a professional and monetary interest not to mess with user reviews. So the presumption of your conclusion's logic is rather premature, leaving me to look once again at the lack of evidence for it.[/QUOTE]

Which only supports my conclusion. That mass botting isn't happening, and that the score is at best organic and at worst has actually been artificially inflated by people trying to counter act something that isn't there in the first place to be counter acted (Mass botting to artificially lower the score.), and had that concern not been circled through the media and social media for awhile, then the movies score would be noticeably lower.

One side also has, by and large, a political alignment that the film seems to not only support but go out of it's way to support. That's the "professional" critics. And it would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAR from the first time professional industry critics and journalists went out there and either for monetary gain, for the sake of not getting black listed from accessing products made by a big company that makes a lot of other products they review in time to review them and have that be relevant enough to actually make money off of, or for the sake of political ideology and/or political virtue signaling, gave a move a far, far, FAR higher score than it warrants.

As far as Technical's, great, at the time it came out Episode 1 had a lot of really cool technical stuff it did that was new and cool at the time.

Episode 1 is not however taken in total a good movie.

And at what point have I the technical parts of the movie? No one's calling them out for that. Were calling it out for god awful writing, directing, at times arguably sub par acting (Though I cut them a break because of known toilet quality writing and directing.) and mind twistingly bad treatment of and damage to the canon of a beloved and storied and freaking historically significant franchise.

And as has been pointed out, it's not just fans online. It's fans not in the theaters again for this movie after 1 sampling, which didn't happen with the last 2 movies anything like this because those movies were given the benefit of the doubt about what the people in charge wanted and were going to do.

And it's in the incredible lack of memorabilia sold.

And I strongly suspect it's going to be in a lot of people not bothering to go see the next couple of movies opening weekend. There going to wait and see if the movie is more of Episode 8. And if it is, will probably opt to not go see it in the fancy showings in 3D, they'll wait for the price to drop and go see a 2D matinee showing, if they go at all and don't just wait for the DVD or the Blue Ray or the streaming service.

And if the reviews are as or more negative, they may well not bother at all.

Lethologica

2018-02-28, 05:25 AM

Which only supports my conclusion. That mass botting isn't happening, and that the score is at best organic and at worst has actually been artificially inflated by people trying to counter act something that isn't there in the first place to be counter acted (Mass botting to artificially lower the score.), and had that concern not been circled through the media and social media for awhile, then the movies score would be noticeably lower.
You're kidding yourself if you think only the fans are manipulating their score in response to perceived outside factors. The hate backlash of the fans is no more or less organic than the hype backlash of the haters--which is not to say there is nothing genuine about both the fandom and the hate, but it's amplified and distorted beyond all recognition by the environment and methodology. When polling is self-selected (not to mention visible while it's accumulated, which makes it even worse than most self-selected polling), the poll can't measure anything more than the state of the internet wars to begin with, and that in an extremely gross sense. Whether there is botting activity on top of that is an entirely separate and practically irrelevant issue.

One side also has, by and large, a political alignment that the film seems to not only support but go out of it's way to support. That's the "professional" critics. And it would be FAAAAAAAAAAAAR from the first time professional industry critics and journalists went out there and either for monetary gain, for the sake of not getting black listed from accessing products made by a big company that makes a lot of other products they review in time to review them and have that be relevant enough to actually make money off of, or for the sake of political ideology and/or political virtue signaling, gave a move a far, far, FAR higher score than it warrants.
Issues of critic objectivity are relevant in a broad sense, but not to the accusation you were making.

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 05:53 AM

You're kidding yourself if you think only the fans are manipulating their score in response to perceived outside factors. The hate backlash of the fans is no more or less organic than the hype backlash of the haters--which is not to say there is nothing genuine about both the fandom and the hate, but it's amplified and distorted beyond all recognition by the environment and methodology. When polling is self-selected (not to mention visible while it's accumulated, which makes it even worse than most self-selected polling), the poll can't measure anything more than the state of the internet wars to begin with, and that in an extremely gross sense. Whether there is botting activity on top of that is an entirely separate and practically irrelevant issue.

Issues of critic objectivity are relevant in a broad sense, but not to the accusation you were making.

Ok, look, you seem to agree with some parts, but your so hell bent on dismissing the internet one step shy of whole cloth that your missing the point.

The people who made the movie have stated, publically and repeated and more then one of them, that ALL, 100%, of disapproval, criticism, dislike, distaste or displeasure with the ST is just Nazi's and Racists and Misogynists and evil internet trolls and there bot programs. All of it. If you are pointing out a problem, you are this, because this is the only thing that points out problems according to them.

And my point is that this is in no way valid and doesn't even hold a little water. That if anything, the reverse is true, and while the reverse might not be true, that's still bad for the movie, because it means there is, over all, an organic consensus that it was not liked, and certainly not loved the way it needed to be loved to keep the franchise viable long term. Because it was not liked, just like Metachlorians or Jar Jar Binks, people are going to be Irked whenever anything it has put out as a tent pole get's drug up in the canon, because it's going to be being reminded of this other thing that was not liked.

This came up because we had at least 1 person in the thread post, and the impression I got from her post, was that she seemed to be under the impression the assertion of the first paragraph was a valid and legitimate thing that was going on. And it isn't. That's why it's now a relevant point of discussion, because someone asked about that specifically.

Lethologica

2018-02-28, 06:37 AM

Ok, look, you seem to agree with some parts, but your so hell bent on dismissing the internet one step shy of whole cloth that your missing the point.
No, the point just seems to keep moving when it's refuted. And I'm not dismissing some vast portion of the internet, I'm pointing out the weakness of a very particular usage of a very tiny fraction of the internet. This weird tendency to identify my arguments with some much broader conflict you've constructed is not doing you any favors.

The people who made the movie have stated, publically and repeated and more then one of them, that ALL, 100%, of disapproval, criticism, dislike, distaste or displeasure with the ST is just Nazi's and Racists and Misogynists and evil internet trolls and there bot programs. All of it. If you are pointing out a problem, you are this, because this is the only thing that points out problems according to them.
First of all, that has nothing to do with what I was arguing and doesn't support the claims you were making. Second, links please, because these remarks are apparently not trivial to find.

And my point is that this is in no way valid and doesn't even hold a little water. That if anything, the reverse is true, and while the reverse might not be true, that's still bad for the movie, because it means there is, over all, an organic consensus that it was not liked, and certainly not loved the way it needed to be loved to keep the franchise viable long term. Because it was not liked, just like Metachlorians or Jar Jar Binks, people are going to be Irked whenever anything it has put out as a tent pole get's drug up in the canon, because it's going to be being reminded of this other thing that was not liked.

This came up because we had at least 1 person in the thread post, and the impression I got from her post, was that she seemed to be under the impression the assertion of the first paragraph was a valid and legitimate thing that was going on. And it isn't. That's why it's now a relevant point of discussion, because someone asked about that specifically.
Your point was rather different from that before I started poking holes in it, but if that's your position now, fine. I would submit that what we are seeing is far from a consensus about anything, but that's not to say the movie is definitely taking the franchise in the right direction.

Metahuman1

2018-02-28, 07:58 AM

No, the point just seems to keep moving when it's refuted. And I'm not dismissing some vast portion of the internet, I'm pointing out the weakness of a very particular usage of a very tiny fraction of the internet. This weird tendency to identify my arguments with some much broader conflict you've constructed is not doing you any favors.

First of all, that has nothing to do with what I was arguing and doesn't support the claims you were making. Second, links please, because these remarks are apparently not trivial to find.

Your point was rather different from that before I started poking holes in it, but if that's your position now, fine. I would submit that what we are seeing is far from a consensus about anything, but that's not to say the movie is definitely taking the franchise in the right direction.

I have not been moving my point. You keep going on about how much none of the places that are regarded as go too's for the moving going audience at large to voice there displeasure with a movie they have already seen and not liked matter.

You initiated this under the apparent presumption I was even aiming my initial comments at you, or that they were in any way inspired by you.

I do agree that actively racist/misogynist/whatever hostility is unlikely to have been the dominant effect, compared to generalized nerd rage. Neither of the effects you comment on are particularly significant, since self-selected online polling is bulls*** to begin with.

But out of curiosity, did you count? Because you seem to be at least in part using my own comments as evidentiary backing, despite my having reached a substantially different conclusion. While I admit to not reading every user review I came across, I at least put in some modest amount of effort to assess the extent to which user scores had been distorted by reactionary voting, and the overall direction of that distortion. What you seem to be doing is making a massive pile of largely speculative assertions to validate your own reaction.

Which is incorrect. As stated, I was replying to one other person, then yet another other person, neither of whom were you.

I was not taking your post into account at the time. I have had to start doing so since then because you keep, having, at, the, posts, that, were, not, about, your, post!

I have not been moving my point about. I have tried to rephrase it to make it more clear since you either didn't seem to get it, or didn't seem to get it in it's entirety but got parts of it, but were mixing up which parts were the more important parts.

If something in the posts had nothing to do with what you were arguing, that's because it was MEANT TO! It was directed in answer to query's and comments of PEOPLE WHOM ARE NOT YOU!

You can dislike the reasoning all you like. It still has to be addressed and debunked because, and this is important, there are people who believe it, or at least have heard the accusation made and are asking if there is validity too it. In my experience, once a person has heard an accusation, and asks if it's true, if there not told very firmly that No, it is not, and had reasoning given for why that is, like, say, explaining the fact that numbers don't work or that it excludes form consideration certain potentially very relevant details or that the people who initiated are positioned to perhaps have ulterior motives to do so, they might find themselves believing it.

In this case it would have meant someone came away believing that the only reason at all that ANYONE being in ANY way critical of ANYTHING about TLJ, is because there racist and/or hate women. That was FAR more pressing to me to try to talk to that person about then ANYTHING AT ALL you have posted in an effort to knock my posts down because you have construed them to be about you for I can't even imagine what freaking reason.

As for links, go look at Interviews and social media everything from Kathleen Kennedy (I think that's how her names spelled, she's the woman who was suppose to be in charge of making sure all the knew content fits canon, including new canon, for Disney.), Rian Johnson and J.J. Abrams. I'd do it for you but I have work to be dealing with now.

Devonix

2018-02-28, 08:28 AM

I don't believe positive or negative user reviews. Evidence for both being tampered with or inflated by fanboys and haters has colored my opinion on them ever since they've been used on videogaming.

I find it hard to believe that people can think that there are oh so many who are giving it good reviews without cause, but not believe that an equal amount of people would give it bad reviews without cause.

Especially since this is the internet and you overwhelmingly get more people willing to post negative comments in comparison to positive ones for popular things.

Zurvan

2018-02-28, 08:47 AM

Devonix

2018-02-28, 09:00 AM

From what I heard, a group of haters(Down With Disney’s Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys) used bots to manipulate rotten tomatoes socres in TLJ and they were planning to do it to Black panther, It got so bad Facebook had to shut down their page.

http://www.huffpostbrasil.com/entry/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-ratings-bots_us_5a38cb78e4b0860bf4aab5b1

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/alt-right-trolls-attack-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-article-1.3713990

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/black-panther-rotten-tomatoes-facebook-1202685658/

So yeah, the votes are tampered with, there is no way to know what the public really think, I believe that apart from the old school fan boys, most of the normal people liked it.

At least that what I can gather form the normal people around me.

What I really mean is that the people who use sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic for the most part are the extreems. The normal average viewer doesn't post on those sites. It's only the people who really love or really hate something. Or the people trying to skew something positive or negative.

If there's no way to know about the legitimacy of fan reviews then there's no way to trust them.

pendell

2018-02-28, 09:02 AM

Didn't a bunch of nerdy, racist and misogynist guys used bots because the new star wars has a woman and a black man as the leads?

Washington Post article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2017/12/21/is-a-mens-rights-activist-sabotaging-the-last-jedi-review-scores-or-do-people-just-hate-it/?utm_term=.4c35ba3a365b) .

Short answer: At least one person claims to have done this. The review companies claim they failed to do so.

I'm leaning to the answer that "Bots were not a significant factor in the Rotten Tomatoes reviews".

The thing about any indicator is that it doesn't stand alone.

1) Sales of both tickets and toys are down (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/disneys-the-last-jedi-box-office-toy-sales-losing-force-2018-01-30).

2) The Last Jedi failed in China (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-china-box-office-why-disneys-jedi-mind-trick-isnt-working-china-1075177).

3) I have seen plenty of youtube videos by people who are NOT bots decrying the movie. It isn't that hard to find.

4) I read many of those negative reviews and they were, in my opinion, written by human beings. GiTP is constantly plagued by bots of all kinds. So far as I know, no bot has ever been able to pretend to be a real poster with real opinions for any length of time. Perhaps someone is capable of writing such a thing ... but it would take a very brilliant writer, not just an angry script kiddie who's upset about a movie.

The one outlier indicator is the opinions of professional critics, which was resoundingly positive.

Another thought to throw out there: While bots definitely happened, I have a hard time believing all those people in China were reading Rotten Tomatoes in English in order to be influenced by them. RT is only one vector for marketing and information. People still get information about shows from their friends and neighbors and word of mouth as well as movies.

From these things I conclude that the movie, made to please Hollywood critics, was a hit with them but not with the demographic of people who make up the star wars fanbase : 25-40 year old white males.

Why don't they like it? Well, the quickest way to find out is by reading what they say for themselves. Internet opinion is a minority but it might at least give you some idea why some people in that demographic dislike him.

Another Washington Post Article which doesn't like the movie and is not a bot (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/12/18/its-time-to-stop-grading-movies-like-star-wars-the-last-jedi-on-a-curve/?utm_term=.1b95adf755ef).

Another factor is that, if bots trashed TLJ, why did they not also trash the Hunger Games and related movies? Whyy wasn't TFA trashed the same way? There are plenty of movies with female protaganists, and some of them have made very good money.

I believe the producers et al are in denial; they produced a movie that didn't connect with the people who watch star wars movies, and they can't bring themselves to admit that fact to themselves.

I know that I personally made the decision not to see the movie based on what i've read of the entire dustup with regards to Poe's attack on the dreadnaughts. Strong female protaganists are fine (I am on record as loving Rogue One ) but the plot of the story has to at least make some kind of sense.

I also have the dreary feeling that there is no ROTJ happy ending this time around; I predict Disney is setting up for a once-a-year movie plotline similar to the Marvel verse where the reset button is hit after every movie and nothing ever changes. Rather than an epic with a beginning, middle, and end, it will simply go on. The First Order will always be a threatening menace, the Resistance will always be in danger but never quite wiped out, our plucky superheroes will face off with the Evil Empire and pull off capers but never actually succeed in bringing freedom to the Galaxy.

Disney is taking my childhood dreams and turning it into a cynical marketing machine which will churn out uninspired pap on a yearly cycle to drain people's pocketbooks. So I'm checking out now.

I could be wrong. They did a fine job with Rogue One. I intend to give both Han and the next movie a chance. But I am not, at this point, hopeful.

Respectfully,

Brian P.