Wildshaping monk

[Eunostus]

One of my players is asking about multiclassing from a level 5 Open Hand Monk into a Circle of the Moon druid. I'm unsure about how his monk abilities would interact with wildshape though. May I ask how the resident DMs would rule the following?
- Unarmored Defense: can you use it in wildshape?
- Martial Arts: can animal forms use unarmored weapons, and if yes, can they use their bonus action to perform an additional attack?
- Flurry of Blows: can animal forms perform it?
- Deflect Missiles: usable in wildshape?
- Extra Attack: usable in wildshape? Does this effectively give animals like the dire wolf multi-attack?

How do people feel about this? I personally think most of these are probably usable in animal form, but that would mean a level 5 monk would gain a huge number of features while wildshaped, greatly increasing their DPS. I wouldn't want them to outshine the non-multiclassed Moon druid too much... Any advice?

[DracoKnight]

One of my players is asking about multiclassing from a level 5 Open Hand Monk into a Circle of the Moon druid. I'm unsure about how his monk abilities would interact with wildshape though. May I ask how the resident DMs would rule the following?
- Unarmored Defense: can you use it in wildshape?
- Martial Arts: can animal forms use unarmored weapons, and if yes, can they use their bonus action to perform an additional attack?
- Flurry of Blows: can animal forms perform it?
- Deflect Missiles: usable in wildshape?
- Extra Attack: usable in wildshape? Does this effectively give animals like the dire wolf multi-attack?

How do people feel about this? I personally think most of these are probably usable in animal form, but that would mean a level 5 monk would gain a huge number of features while wildshaped, greatly increasing their DPS. I wouldn't want them to outshine the non-multiclassed Moon druid too much... Any advice?

Answering your bullets in the same order you asked:

Yes
Yes
Yes
No (Unless you're in a beast form that can feasibly catch it, like an ape)
Yes

Eh, I mean, I might be biased because I've actually played this multiclass, but I (and my group) didn't notice anything too crazy about letting all of that work.

[danpit2991]

Answering your bullets in the same order you asked:

Yes
Yes
Yes
No (Unless you're in a beast form that can feasibly catch it, like an ape)
Yes

Eh, I mean, I might be biased because I've actually played this multiclass, but I (and my group) didn't notice anything too crazy about letting all of that work.

catching missiles should only be allowed by things with hands or hand like paws likes apes and bears.... but swatting them down? why cant a panther do that or a wolf snapping an arrow out of the air with its jaws

[DracoKnight]

catching missiles should only be allowed by things with hands or hand like paws likes apes and bears.... but swatting them down? why cant a panther do that or a wolf snapping an arrow out of the air with its jaws

That's totally fair. I was just relaying the ruling my DM gave me. I should have said that, I guess.

[Errata]

Animals can make "unarmed strikes" using the normal monk dice. However their cool "natural weapon" attacks are not unarmed strikes.

If he's already a monk now, it's too late, but a good option for a wildshape monk is Kensei, so they can make one of their natural weapons count as a monk weapon.

Similarly, any component of their AC that comes from "natural armor" doesn't stack with unarmed defense. It will be the animals dex bonus plus the character's wis bonus, with no natural armor bonus.

A monk multiclass is fun, but it doesn't necessarily outshine a regular moon druid, since the moon druid's animal form keeps getting better based on druid level, not to mention sacrificing spellcasting. It's just different. If you houserule that they can do natural weapon attacks as unarmed strikes, without a significant investment in a monk subclass, then they do get a bit too much from just a 1 level dip in Monk. However if you make them invest more in Monk and go Kensei, the loss of druid levels is a steep price that balances it.

[Matrix_Walker]

One of my players is asking about multiclassing from a level 5 Open Hand Monk into a Circle of the Moon druid. I'm unsure about how his monk abilities would interact with wildshape though. May I ask how the resident DMs would rule the following?
- Unarmored Defense: can you use it in wildshape?
- Martial Arts: can animal forms use unarmored weapons, and if yes, can they use their bonus action to perform an additional attack?
- Flurry of Blows: can animal forms perform it?
- Deflect Missiles: usable in wildshape?
- Extra Attack: usable in wildshape? Does this effectively give animals like the dire wolf multi-attack?

How do people feel about this? I personally think most of these are probably usable in animal form, but that would mean a level 5 monk would gain a huge number of features while wildshaped, greatly increasing their DPS. I wouldn't want them to outshine the non-multiclassed Moon druid too much... Any advice?

Unarmored Defense works fin nased on the animal's DEX

Flurry of Blows will work as long as you are using the Attack action to attack with Martial Arts (doing damage as a monk weapon). I say it this way becasue Multiattack is a seperate action from Attack. If you use the creature's damage die or multiattack, you cannot use the bonus attack or flurry features.

Deflect missiles, sure, I don't see why not.

Extra Attack works as long as you are using the Attack action and not the Multiattack action.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/08/how-do-extra-attacks-work-with-wildshape-druid-multiattacksattacks/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost

[Mortis_Elrod]

If he's already a monk now, it's too late, but a good option for a wildshape monk is Kensei, so they can make one of their natural weapons count as a monk weapon.



I think kensei weapons have to be simple or martial, which none of the beasties you can into have as natural weapons.

I'd probably allow it anyway but as per RAW...

[danpit2991]

That's totally fair. I was just relaying the ruling my DM gave me. I should have said that, I guess.

its cool was just curious


dang it this thread makes me want to do this MC ..."my monkey style kung fu will defeat you ha ha ha"

[PhantomSoul]

Adding onto the others and looking at Deflect Missiles, I think it's worth highlighting that it's essentially two abilities:

(a) Deflect/Reject/Negate Missiles: you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.
(b) Reflect Missiles: If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack.

Most -- but hypothetically not all -- creatures will be able to do (a), but only a subset of those will be able to do (b). A panther can Deflect Missiles in that it swaps arrows out of the air, making them miss (or at least reducing the damage); that same panther would presumably just not be able to catch the arrow in their hand and then throw it as a weapon. (I say "presumably" because it's easy to refluff this -- maybe it basically treats the arrow almost like a ping pong ball and tosses it back without catching it, for example.)

EDIT for clarity: This would probably be my ruling: you have different listed (and logical) requirements for the two parts of Deflect Missiles, so I'd let you use whichever part(s) your animal form is physically able to do.

[hymer]

May I ask how the resident DMs would rule the following?
- Unarmored Defense: can you use it in wildshape?
No. If the player's concept was entirely hung up on this functioning, I might be willing to compromise (like letting it work in a few forms the monk trains for), but generally what works to defend a human shape does not work to defend a snake shape or a spider shape. In rules terms, wild shapes cannot do things the animal is physically incapable of doing. I hold that few if any animals can perform kung fu seen or kwa moves, because those were developed for humans. Even if they could perform them, they wouldn't protect an animal the way they do a human.


- Martial Arts: can animal forms use unarmored weapons, and if yes, can they use their bonus action to perform an additional attack?
Mostly, an animal can't attack using monk martial arts, because a bear doesn't have hands and fingers to perform a fong, nor the overall build to perform a ce chuai tui. The method the animal uses is pretty much the best you can expect an animal to be capable of doing. Like above, I might be willing to make some compromises (though I'd still hold with Multiattack not being the Attack action, so not all forms would do equally well here).


- Flurry of Blows: can animal forms perform it?
Any form that can use Martial Arts can use Flurry of Blows (and with the same caveat about Multiattack). The others can't.


- Deflect Missiles: usable in wildshape?
Simians, mostly yes. Most other forms, no. But again, like in the above rulings, I might let a given PC have it.


- Extra Attack: usable in wildshape? Does this effectively give animals like the dire wolf multi-attack?
This one we actually have more than DM whim to tell us. We have JC's whim (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05/can-a-paladindruid-in-a-wild-shape-extra-attack/). A wolf with extra attack can bite twice. Extra Attack does not stack with the Multiattack of forms like bears, though. It would still allow the bear form to attack twice with its claws rather than once with claws and once with bite (as per multiattack), for a small increase in damage.


How do people feel about this? I personally think most of these are probably usable in animal form, but that would mean a level 5 monk would gain a huge number of features while wildshaped, greatly increasing their DPS. I wouldn't want them to outshine the non-multiclassed Moon druid too much... Any advice?
This doesn't come online until level 7. By then, wild shapes aren't that strong any more. The moon druid should be casting spells at this point, and use wild shapes mostly for their added defences and for utility. The monk will indeed have a stronger brown bear form than the single-class moon druid has polar bear if you allow all these things to work, and will probably feel less borked by losing the form than a wild shape-only druid. But a level 7 straight monk is also better at dealing damage and less squishy than a polar bear form. They're supposed to be.
If moon druids were as powerful in melee as monks, with all the added hit points of wild shapes (not to mention the utility), and on top of that had full spellcasting, then they would be improperly balanced. Druids are casters above all else, even moon druids.

Edit: I know next to nothing about kung fu. I'm not even sure I used the terminology correctly. But I think it illustrates my point better when I use it.

[Errata]

I think kensei weapons have to be simple or martial, which none of the beasties you can into have as natural weapons.

I'd probably allow it anyway but as per RAW...

Fair. In general the rules for wild shape don't lend themselves to mixing with other abilities well. For one thing their use of temporary hit points means you can't heal them or even grant them temporary hit points. There are some nice aspects to playing a moon druid taken in isolation, but once you throw it into a party or a multiclass, the rules are too rigid and don't hold up well.

Other areas where it's too rigid is forcing every druid to have wild shape as a core ability. I think it should be a resource that druid subclasses can override for use toward other abilities.

I think in 6e there should be sufficient flexibility to allow for some kind of lycanthrope specialist who can shift into one specific type of creature that they choose when taking the ability (not a different one every time they shift), and they can build up more powerful beastial physical characteristics as they level up, implemented in a way that they combine more gracefully with multiclassing or other party members abilities. This could be a class, subclass, racial template, or whatever makes sense for the system. An anthropomorphic combat specialist is clearly something a lot of players want and have a hard time working around with moon druid. And someone who wants to focus on their combat doesn't necessarily want to also invest in being a full caster, so to make it properly powerful in combat and still balanced, it needs to be divorced from druid, which is a powerful caster even without wild shape.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Fair. In general the rules for wild shape don't lend themselves to mixing with other abilities well. For one thing their use of temporary hit points means you can't heal them or even grant them temporary hit points. There are some nice aspects to playing a moon druid taken in isolation, but once you throw it into a party or a multiclass, the rules are too rigid and don't hold up well.

Other areas where it's too rigid is forcing every druid to have wild shape as a core ability. I think it should be a resource that druid subclasses can override for use toward other abilities.

I think in 6e there should be sufficient flexibility to allow for some kind of lycanthrope specialist who can shift into one specific type of creature that they choose when taking the ability (not a different one every time they shift), and they can build up more powerful beastial physical characteristics as they level up, implemented in a way that they combine more gracefully with multiclassing or other party members abilities. This could be a class, subclass, racial template, or whatever makes sense for the system. An anthropomorphic combat specialist is clearly something a lot of players want and have a hard time working around with moon druid. And someone who wants to focus on their combat doesn't necessarily want to also invest in being a full caster, so to make it properly powerful in combat and still balanced, it needs to be divorced from druid, which is a powerful caster even without wild shape.

i completely agree. I'd probably make this a barbarian thing if it had to be a subclass, makes alot of sense flavor and mechanics wise IMO.

Spore druid is a step in the right direction with their alternate use for wildshape. I think more things like that should exist for druids.

[danpit2991]

No. If the player's concept was entirely hung up on this functioning, I might be willing to compromise (like letting it work in a few forms the monk trains for), but generally what works to defend a human shape does not work to defend a snake shape or a spider shape. In rules terms, wild shapes cannot do things the animal is physically incapable of doing. I hold that few if any animals can perform kung fu seen or kwa moves, because those were developed for humans. Even if they could perform them, they wouldn't protect an animal the way they do a human.


Mostly, an animal can't attack using monk martial arts, because a bear doesn't have hands and fingers to perform a fong, nor the overall build to perform a ce chuai tui. The method the animal uses is pretty much the best you can expect an animal to be capable of doing. Like above, I might be willing to make some compromises (though I'd still hold with Multiattack not being the Attack action, so not all forms would do equally well here).


Any form that can use Martial Arts can use Flurry of Blows (and with the same caveat about Multiattack). The others can't.


Simians, mostly yes. Most other forms, no. But again, like in the above rulings, I might let a given PC have it.


This one we actually have more than DM whim to tell us. We have JC's whim (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05/can-a-paladindruid-in-a-wild-shape-extra-attack/). A wolf with extra attack can bite twice. Extra Attack does not stack with the Multiattack of forms like bears, though. It would still allow the bear form to attack twice with its claws rather than once with claws and once with bite (as per multiattack), for a small increase in damage.


This doesn't come online until level 7. By then, wild shapes aren't that strong any more. The moon druid should be casting spells at this point, and use wild shapes mostly for their added defences and for utility. The monk will indeed have a stronger brown bear form than the single-class moon druid has polar bear if you allow all these things to work, and will probably feel less borked by losing the form than a wild shape-only druid. But a level 7 straight monk is also better at dealing damage and less squishy than a polar bear form. They're supposed to be.
If moon druids were as powerful in melee as monks, with all the added hit points of wild shapes (not to mention the utility), and on top of that had full spellcasting, then they would be improperly balanced. Druids are casters above all else, even moon druids.

Edit: I know next to nothing about kung fu. I'm not even sure I used the terminology correctly. But I think it illustrates my point better when I use it.

and i shall rebut with the following list

monkey style
crane style
tiger style
eagle style
leopard style
snake style

you get the point i think an animal that the style is based on can do the kung fu better than a human imitation

[hymer]

@ danpit2991: I think we're looking at this from different angles. You're seeing it from an inspirational or mystical angle. I'm viewing it from an angle of physicality and anatomy.
Those styles are inspired by animals, and to a certain degree mimic them. But they aren't them. Just stop for half a moment to think about what you're saying, from a concrete perspective: A crane performing crane style? It doesn't have hands, it cannot perform the elaborate hand blocks of the style. And humans don't have beaks, and can't strike their prey with it, nor can they escape a dangerous position by flying.

[danpit2991]

@Hymer.. havent you ever seen kung fu panda?????

and i submit the following link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgg_fukbvU

[Citan]

One of my players is asking about multiclassing from a level 5 Open Hand Monk into a Circle of the Moon druid. I'm unsure about how his monk abilities would interact with wildshape though. May I ask how the resident DMs would rule the following?
- Unarmored Defense: can you use it in wildshape?
- Martial Arts: can animal forms use unarmored weapons, and if yes, can they use their bonus action to perform an additional attack?
- Flurry of Blows: can animal forms perform it?
- Deflect Missiles: usable in wildshape?
- Extra Attack: usable in wildshape? Does this effectively give animals like the dire wolf multi-attack?

How do people feel about this? I personally think most of these are probably usable in animal form, but that would mean a level 5 monk would gain a huge number of features while wildshaped, greatly increasing their DPS. I wouldn't want them to outshine the non-multiclassed Moon druid too much... Any advice?
Hi!

Well, I'd say you have several ways.

1. Allow everything on the ground of "as long as your beast form is capable so", could be argued that using beast members is not so different.

2. Allow only a subset because you feel some things are RAI others aren't.

3. Allow only if guy takes a beast that comes close to humanoid (4 members, mammal, ability to stand on two rear legs for a sustained time).

4. Allow everything but only for one creature that becomes the iconic creature of the player.

5. Allow everything but step by step, when character gains another level in Druid.

I personally go with a mix of 3 and 5, unless my player would be fine with having only ever one beast form.
I say that player gains the Monk's ability when he gets equivalent level of Moon Druid +2 (so you can use Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts when Druid 3, Flurry of Blows at level 4 etc), and only with felines, bear-likes and obviously apes.

And I lift restrictions on compatible beast forms progressively too (well, if character goes far enough though).

On the minus side, player has to wait quite some time before starting to play his concept.
On the plus side, I allow everything (including Martial Arts and FoB) to work with it.

This way, I give a true feeling of accomplishement of the character concept and making it mechanically powerful without breaking immersion for players and myself.
And I explain it as extra training that the character must follow to adapt his technique to the beast forms.

After all, Monk is supposed to get all his features because he trained years to be a master of his own body. So you could expect some effort to translate this mastery into forms which you can adopt only for short bursts of time.

I know I'm the minority though. From what I recall, most DM directly allow, per their interpretation of RAW...
- Unarmored Defense (but calculated with beast stats)
- Deflect Missiles.
- Extra Attack
- Stunning Strike.
Others will be a case by case basis.

[Gryndle]

somewhat off topic, but I have actually met a german shepherd that knows aikido. He was very controlled with how much pressure he put with his teeth while playing...but it was a bit disconcerting the first time I played with it and realized it was actually trying to perform a kote gaeshi on me. if it had been trying for real, that would have hurt. His name was Patton and he belonged to a friend that I trained with for years, who is a soldier that had just returned from Iraq.
otherwise dog was harmless, unless given the command to "play" or "sic"

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I think the the fluff is really cool. I mean imaging fighting a big bad using mantis style (my favorite) then fly at him and transforming into a giant one. I might try this. I also think that the monk abilities would work in wild shape.

[DarkKnightJin]

I think the the fluff is really cool. I mean imaging fighting a big bad using mantis style (my favorite) then fly at him and transforming into a giant one. I might try this. I also think that the monk abilities would work in wild shape.

I wanna make a Monk/Druid now..
Maybe Monk 2/Druid X, or the other way around, I haven't decided yet.
Guess it depends on if I want to focus on the caster or the martial aspect..