How do you roleplay clerics who don't serve deities?

[sorcererlover]

I know that a cleric with the good domain is devoted to doing good, and believes good should prevail over evil, and he should spread good.

But what about... Time? Shadow? Luck? Celerity?

I got nothing. Like how do you spread time? How do you devote yourself to time? Or Luck? How do you spread Time and Luck or Shadow or Celerity?

How do you roleplay a cleric with Time domain?

[Hrugner]

You believe that this aspect of the world is a very important defining feature along which ethical lines can be drawn.

Good and Evil is actually pretty vague compared to something like Time. Most of us are raised with a reverence for time though, so it may be hard to think of ways in which people could show a lack of reverence for it. Just keep in mind that a person's approach to time is going to be very important to you. Does your character treat every mortal moment as a valuable piece of time that should be exploited or cherished, or do they believe that it is vanity to cherish every moment due to the immortality of the soul and the endlessness of time. It's also possible that they respect the perspective of every creature based on the time that they have to exist, the ethics of an immortal could be flat out evil for something that lived only 5 years. For further inspiration, look toward the large number of sayings and songs that talk about what time is.

[sorcererlover]

So respect is enough?

Like I get how I can respect time because time heals all wounds and time erodes even mountains to dust, but how do you devote yourself to time? What behavior could you possess to become a Cleric of time and gain divine power for it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You've got a slight misunderstanding. While a domain can encompass an entire idea on which to base faith, it's much more common for a non-deity cleric to worship a concept or idea with which a domain can be associated.

You're not a cleric of time itself but of the idea that time is precious, promoting the notion that it's important to make the most of what time we mortals have; or perhaps of the endless scale of history, preaching that society must make large, lasting works to stand through the ages; etc.

As for the distinction between reverence and service; it is... difficult... to -serve- certain things and ideas as they have no active goals to promote. For such things a deep and abiding reverence, keeping that thing in the forefront of your mind as you go about whatever you may be doing is sufficient. Although, a touch of proselytizing to explain that's what you're doing and why you're doing it would probably go a ways toward justifying such a devotion to the DM.

Does this make any sense?

[Hrugner]

All you can really do is draw time based ethical lines and adhere to them. Like I said though, it would require you to determine how you revere time to discover what sort of behaviors it would encourage or judge immoral. If your reverence is focused on inevitability then things that seek to prevent inevitable states could be seen as trivial at best and evil at worst. You might seek to convert or destroy other healers in order to ensure that they don't heal people, undead would need to be destroyed, unnatural life extension would need to be fought against, you may see ageless characters like high level monks and druids as being abominations, laws wouldn't be important as they are just a temporary part of civilization. That sort of thing.

[sorcererlover]

But casting spells in the time domain defy time. Especially haste and time stop. If my cleric believed in your example, he couldn't cast those spells out of his belief.

This is making my head hurt...

And the same thing to Luck. All the spells in the luck domain, and the luck domain power itself defies luck. How can someone use spells that defy that which she reveres?

[sorcererlover]

You've got a slight misunderstanding. While a domain can encompass an entire idea on which to base faith, it's much more common for a non-deity cleric to worship a concept or idea with which a domain can be associated.

You're not a cleric of time itself but of the idea that time is precious, promoting the notion that it's important to make the most of what time we mortals have; or perhaps of the endless scale of history, preaching that society must make large, lasting works to stand through the ages; etc.

As for the distinction between reverence and service; it is... difficult... to -serve- certain things and ideas as they have no active goals to promote. For such things a deep and abiding reverence, keeping that thing in the forefront of your mind as you go about whatever you may be doing is sufficient. Although, a touch of proselytizing to explain that's what you're doing and why you're doing it would probably go a ways toward justifying such a devotion to the DM.

Does this make any sense?

Oops, missed your post somehow!

And yes it makes sense.

So you're saying deep respect/reverance, and deeply respecting/revering it almost 24/7 is what grants the cleric the divine spellcasting?

Ok I think I get that. Yeah that would make sense.

How would you respect/revere Luck, Celerity, and Shadow though?

[johnbragg]

I'd argue that if you can't imagine how you'd reverence it, you can't worship it.

But a cleric-of-a-philosophy with Time as a domain isn't necessarily a cleric of Time. She could be a cleric of history, of reverence for ancient beings and civilizations and their knowledge and wisdom. She sees the world as an extension of the distant past, and as the embryonic form of a brilliant future to come. Or possibly an alcolyte of Fate, helping all persons and things to meet their ultimate destiny.

Luck is pretty easy. Luck may not be a conscious god or goddess, but it is the force that ultimately rules the world, receiving the prayers of the doomed hoping for an unlikely escape and collecting the thanks of the fortunate--at least until luck turns on them. Luck is the closest most mortals will come to understanding the True Chaos that underlies the visible world, the formless maelstrom that gives life to the drab, uniform matter of the Elemental Planes, and will swallow it all up again in the end-that-is-not-the-end, for True Chaos cannot stay the same, and so will give birth to a new Order and laugh at the contradiction.

Shadow is the balance point between the light and the darkness, sheltering those who need the warmth of the fire of light, but cannot stand its merciless glare; and embracing those who are not creatures of the Darkness, equally merciless and equally tyrannical. Drow are creatures of Darkness, goblins are creatures of Shadow.

Celerity, you're just an aspiring munchkin who saw the term in a CharOp flamewar thread but didn't read the domain spell list.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oops, missed your post somehow!

And yes it makes sense.

So you're saying deep respect/reverance, and deeply respecting/revering it almost 24/7 is what grants the cleric the divine spellcasting?

Ok I think I get that. Yeah that would make sense.

How would you respect/revere Luck, Celerity, and Shadow though?

Luck can be broken down into the ideas of good and bad fortune. I'd angle it as being extraordinarily superstitious wrt things that supposedly bring good/bad luck; never walk under a ladder, always make a gesture at the mention of things of ill omen, never gamble lest I should use up all my good fortune, etc. Just absolutely obsess over bringing good luck and warding off bad.

Celerity is quickness or alacrity. Whatever you do, get it done fast; the faster the better. Waiting for things is a waste of time, you've gotta go get it done. Sitting still is a sin. Something like that.

Shadow calls to mind stealth or mystery as well as actual darkness. To be "seen" is to be exposed; in several senses of the term. I'd play it as very stoic and try to keep to the background of most scenes except to "strike out" when I see an opening to get things done in service to the cleric's goals.


Remember; a cleric gets -two- domains. You need to pick an idea or concept that encompasses both. It's basically a word association game to match up idea and domains then building an ideology or at least some consistent behaviors from there.

[sorcererlover]

I think I got it.

Time is inevitability. Nothing is permanent, everything changes, and everything ends. It is one of the greatest forces of the universe. Healing, undeath, immortality, none of those matter because in the end, one way or another, time will get them.

Everyday my cleric is basked in Time's glory and eventually this deep respect and reverence granted him the ability to manipulate time, because time favors him, because he knows the true power of time, and he shows his enemies the true power of time.

Luck is one of the greatest forces of the universe. Those who were lucky enough to be born in rich homes live happy lives while those unlucky to be born in poor homes struggle their entire lives and dies a pitiful end. Those who were lucky enough to win the lottery or at the casino can escape their life and go to a better life, while those who don't suffer until they die.

Everyday my cleric is basked in Luck's glory and eventually this deep respect and reverence granted him the ability to manipulate luck, because luck favors him, because he knows the true power of luck, and he shows his enemies the true power of luck.

And that's all my brain power. Need a while before I go onto shadow and celerity, and fyi I chose celerity because it was a weirdo domain I couldn't wrap my head around so I put it in this thread as an example. To see if someone can make something out of it.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, a cleric basically picks something to promote and follow. A cleric does not pick domains first, but picks a Divine Philosophy first.

So the cleric comes up with the Divine Philosophy first, then gets domains.

You can 'spin' each Good, Evil or Neutral.

A cleric of 'good' luck promotes wishing for good luck to happen...maybe even taking risks. A 'neutral' luck promotes more of a ''you never know what might happen'' and 'evil' might be more wishing bad luck on others or stealing good luck for yourself.

And so on.

[RoboEmperor]

Remember; a cleric gets -two- domains. You need to pick an idea or concept that encompasses both. It's basically a word association game to match up idea and domains then building an ideology or at least some consistent behaviors from there.

I disagree. Let me quote Manual of the Planes.

"Alternatively, a cleric cut off from his deity might simply venerate the principles he stands for, connecting to his domains in the same way that clerics unaffiliated with a deity do."

So you can have as many principles/ideologies as you want. You don't have to combine the two domains. Having two principles (one for each domain) is good enough.

edit:quoted the wrong post!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. Let me quote Manual of the Planes.

"Alternatively, a cleric cut off from his deity might simply venerate the principles he stands for, connecting to his domains in the same way that clerics unaffiliated with a deity do."

So you can have as many principles/ideologies as you want. You don't have to combine the two domains. Having two principles is good enough.

FIFY.

We're saying the same thing. All I meant was that service requires direction. Some ideas/concepts don't inherently give direction so you revere them rather than serve them. It doesn't make a mechanical difference at all.

[RoboEmperor]

FIFY.

We're saying the same thing. All I meant was that service requires direction. Some ideas/concepts don't inherently give direction so you revere them rather than serve them. It doesn't make a mechanical difference at all.

You read my post before I edited it >.<

No i quoted the wrong post. Try re-reading my post now and see if you agree to that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You read my post before I edited it >.<

No i quoted the wrong post. Try re-reading my post now and see if you agree to that.

:smallconfused:

but a set of principles -is- an ideology, almost by definition. I don't think I quite understand your objection.

[RoboEmperor]

:smallconfused:

but a set of principles -is- an ideology, almost by definition. I don't think I quite understand your objection.

For simplicity's sake, lets say a cleric believes in these two things very strongly.

1. History is important (time) and must be preserved and cherished.
2. You have to make your own luck to succeed in life.

These two are unrelated, yet I am saying a cleric can hold both of these principles close to his heart and obtain the time and luck domains.

As in you don't have to mash the two together into something like... I dunno... "powerlessness" because luck and time are out of your control?

edit:
Easier example might be Good and Warforged.
1. Good is good.
2. Warforged are awesome.

Two are completely unrelated and I claim that the cleric with these ideologies can gain the good and warforged domain without mashing the two together into...
1. Good warforged is good.

No need for mashing. Multiple ideologies/principles is legal as long as they don't conflict!

[Kelb_Panthera]

For simplicity's sake, lets say a cleric believes in these two things very strongly.

1. History is important (time) and must be preserved and cherished.
2. You have to make your own luck to succeed in life.

These two are unrelated, yet I am saying a cleric can hold both of these principles close to his heart and obtain the time and luck domains.

As in you don't have to mash the two together into something like... I dunno... "powerlessness" because luck and time are out of your control?

edit:
Easier example might be Good and Warforged.
1. Good is good.
2. Warforged are awesome.

Two are completely unrelated and I claim that the cleric with these ideologies can gain the good and warforged domain without mashing the two together into...
1. Good warforged is good.

No need for mashing. Multiple ideologies/principles is legal as long as they don't conflict!

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree. I could, perhaps, have made such clearer in my own posts.

[tiercel]

Complete Champion Ch. 1 gives affiliations which have both fluff and crunch for at least the Core domains; seems like a reasonable place to start.

[sorcererlover]

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree. I could, perhaps, have made such clearer in my own posts.

Good! If I had to come up with an ideology that encompasses both domains my head would've exploded.

Ok I got it now. Super deep respect and reverence combined with thinking about it 24/7 results in access to domain.

or having principles that are related to the domain results in access to the domain.

The history preserver example is a really good example but I don't want my character to be some historian so I'm gonna pass on that.

[sorcererlover]

Complete Champion Ch. 1 gives affiliations which have both fluff and crunch for at least the Core domains; seems like a reasonable place to start.

Thanks this helps a lot.

[RFLS]

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree. I could, perhaps, have made such clearer in my own posts.


Good! If I had to come up with an ideology that encompasses both domains my head would've exploded.

Ok I got it now. Super deep respect and reverence combined with thinking about it 24/7 results in access to domain.

or having principles that are related to the domain results in access to the domain.

The history preserver example is a really good example but I don't want my character to be some historian so I'm gonna pass on that.

I love so much that there's a place on the internet where two people can have a (perceived) disagreement and then resolve it respectfully.

[DMVerdandi]

I think that the source of divine power also begs to be waxed philosophically. Divine magic isn't just a gift from the gods. In fact, most users aren't gifted it at all. Clerics gain power through the harmony that wisdom brings with the concepts themselves. They are like the platonic forms [Ideas]. The Divine practitioner gains and maintains a connection of spirit with those concepts and is empowered by them.
In a setting with gods, the gods themselves may USE that connection, but they aren't really giving them power, The domains are. The gods may be the domains personified, but they are still a half step away from the domain in itself. This is expressed by the deities and demigods handbook, with deities having abilities like domain sense, and being able to award the faithful divine spells, but just because you are faithful, doesn't mean you are a cleric, or a favored soul, or an archivist.

The cleric gains power through their devotion of an idea/l [personified or not], the favored soul gains power just because...They are naturally blessed with a connection to spirit, and the archivist gains power from their devotion to understanding knowledge,secrets and rituals for their own sake.



Now, as for a cleric of time, I don't see why it's really that difficult to conceptualize. They don't have to love time, or worship time hoping for some sort of gift. In fact they can fear it. Fear it to the point of divine reverence. It's just the most important thing on their minds. It can be an obsession. Someone who is compulsively punctual, someone who tries to hurry to get things done at all times, OR it can be someone who is always trying to capture a moment, but cannot because time is fleeting. Think of the friend who is always trying to take a picture to capture a moment, or someone who just tries to spend every minute with a dying loved one. They fear time's natural flow.

So someone who's soul just shouts "STOP!!!"; and they appeal, and they pray, and it does? Yes. Yes, they are worthy. And more than anything, they are going to put everything into exploring that power over time, because it works.
That, or gotta go fast, the character.

The difference between a wizard using time stop and a Cleric of time using time stop is the wizard doesn't appeal for the ability, he breaks down the physical laws and manipulates them to distort the advance of time on the physical plane. The Cleric connects their soul to the idea of time and works from within that connection to make miracles happen.

[Ramza00]

Clerics at its core is not about deities but instead about belief. Belief in something that is bigger than yourself, or sacred (what is seperate from yourself, or things unseen), or belief in some form of flow such as the concept of the right path, or the correct one.

Remember all things in life require some layer of abstraction, and a cleric is one who embrace the belief that you need for life in order to deal with the ambiguity that is life. For example I can make a agnostic skeptic cleric whose his belief in the uncertainty of life, this skepticism, yet moves forward anyway and thus he is powered by this belief even if this belief is not invested in a god.

Or I can create many other stories but in the end all clerics are powered by belief.

[Ramza00]

So for example a character who is a cleric that does not worship a diety but does worship 4 domains

Time
Luck
Celerity (Aka Swiftness)
Shadow.

I would roleplay such character as a mixture of Bojack Horseman especially season 4, and Alexander Hamilton from the Hamilton musical. A man who is running, always moving, in an almost compulsive way. (see song nonstop, wait for it and others songs from hamilton.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9iLfPP4Ps8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X04-9LE6EOA

This character as a philosophy has the philosophy of Time's Arrow always moves forward (See the 2nd episode of Season 4 of Bojack Horseman, but also the 2nd to last episode of Bojack Horseman.) Note this is both a proactive but also a very negative aspect of the cleric's personality for he is not good at introspection and looking backwards and stopping and thinking and feeling. No the cleric always has to be moving forward only living in the present, and being fearful of the future, but most fearful of the past.


The cleric is in awe with time.
The cleric does movement, it is a conative drive, like they have a psychomotor agitation constantly on the move disorder. Aka celerity.
The cleric does not really understand how the past influences the present, they know ti does, but since they are not good at exploring and learning from the past the past is the shadow to them. The thing that connects the present to the past is the shadow, and thus the past feels like it is haunting them in the present and the future.
The cleric understands the importance of Luck, but what could be seen as the choices we make influence our luck, the cleric instead sees luck as a grand power of chance and randomness in the universe. It is tied to the lack of control they feel in the pasta, for they see luck as random where you end up in the present, and sometimes you get good luck and sometimes bad luck. BUt since the cleric is trying to always live in the present and future they may be more "good lucky" due to a sixth sense they may not even realize about environmental situational awareness.


NOw how you would play said character is the cleric is wise (or if you take a feat smart, or charismatic) but they have character flaws. Their powers derive from something that give them wisdom and insight where they see things other people do not, but they are also character flaws where they are missing things in their own life due to this almost maniac and compulsive nature of them always being on the go, always running, never looking back to the shadows of the past, focused on the present, and fearful of time and death in the future for they area afraid of being "stuck" and how is not stinking thinking or death the ultimate form of being stuck to the person who feels the compulsive need to always be on the move.

----

Now there are far more different ways you can do this, but this is what shifting your viewpoint of clerics as being priest to a deity to instead being around belief, and how we tell stories to ourselves and belief is very much tied to these tories. The stories may involve gods, or it may instead involve how you view the world.

[BWR]

I treat them much the same way I treat devotees of gods. I expect them to have a fairly well-defined belief and work to support it. Get a hold of the 2e supplement "Complete Priest's handbook" - it does a good job of laying out beliefs and obligations for concepts and philosophies.

The short version, I require all clerics who don't follow gods to write down 3-5 core beliefs about their ethos and 3+ supplementary guidelines. That way the players have a good idea what their character actually tries to do instead of saying "I believe in, like, goodness and stuff", and just doing whatever they feel like.

As an example, a cleric of the concept of family might look like this:
Core beliefs:
- families are the core of society, the most basic social unit, and should be treated with respect and care
- the strength of a family comes from its members, and the familial bonds. such bonds are created through care, love and mutual respect. To love and care for the family is to care for its members. Do not abuse such bonds.
- children are the future of family, be they blood or adopted. Caring for children is the single greatest good anyone can do.

Secondary beliefs
- marrying into another family is changing allegiance. You may love and respect your old family, but your current family always comes first.
- extended family is thinned out loyalty. While you are loyal to distant relatives, you are closest to those closest to you.
- family need not be blood and need not be permanent. Situations may arise where you work together with others over an extended period of time. Make them family, and find strength in that.

[Sam K]

In Terry Pratchets "Thief of Time" (as well as some of his other work), there exist a order of monks who are devoted to time (I think they're called the history monks). While most of them seem to be very much like the D&D Monk class (ie impressive looking on paper but doesn't add up to very much in reality), a few of them show abilities that could be compared to cleric spellcasting. Through understanding the nature of time they get the ability to manipulate it and some of them can even bypass it's rules entirely. While they consider themselves guardians of time (ensuring that history plays out like it is supposed to), they are allowed to make minor transgressions themselves in order to ensure the safe passage of time in general.

Though there exist a personification of time, it is distinctively different from a deity. Also the monks do not worship it and it does not communicate with them (with a couple of exceptions). They simply revere time, and through studying it, they get supernatural abilities.