Caster Party - Balance issue

[Sk8ter274]

I've been playing with my group on Roll20 for almost a year now and have no problems other than the usual that every group has. In my spare time I've been building a campaign of my own. When I brought it up my group was all for it, but I ran into a slight snag. I had designed the campaign to have a "balanced" party. Instead 3 out of the four, with the four most likely following suit, decide to role casters. A Drow Whisper Bard, Halfling Divine Soul Sorceror, & Half-Elf Hexblade Warlock. The fourth player said he is interested in role a wizard, but isn't confirming as of yet. I can make do without a healer. just supply more healing potions than I originally planned, but I am concerned with the party being too squishy for what I intend to throw at them. While they'll be starting at level 3, which is what I consider true level one because that it when classes begin to feel like their classes in my opinion I don't think it'll be much since the closest thing they have to a tank is a Hexblade Warlock with its proficiency in medium armor. I've talked with my DM and others and they say that balance isn't my responsibility outside of making sure I don't throw enemies that aren't level appropriate and that it's up to the players to make up for their lack of bulk by being smart about it. While I understand the sentiment, I still have my concerns and let's be honest a TPK is fun for no one. I've come up with three possible solutions

1. Make the enemies fight in a "caster friendly" manner
2. Lower the AC & HP of enemies
3. Provide a DM PC like barbarian that just tags along and contributes little next to nothing during RP


Could really use some advice and feedback


Here are the details of the campaign
1 No aasimar, aarakocra, gensai
2. Players are starting at level 3
3. They'll be essentially running the campaign from 1998 Baldur's Gate computer with quite a bit of homebrew and changes using 5th edition

[Emay Ecks]

I've run games for full caster parties before, and haven't had to make too many changes. I did have a very good and experienced group though, and they knew they couldn't approach combat in the same way a balanced party could. What this means is that a full caster party might try to make sure the fight is on familiar terrain, they have a distance advantage on their enemies, or the entire party goes invisible and just walks past encounters. I would make sure your party talks with each other frequently, and make sure you give them options. The biggest issue for me was magic item drops, because everyone pretty much wanted the same ones.

So if you're cool allowing the full caster party, just a few things you might want to keep in mind:

-Give the party plenty of freedom. Let them try things, let them say "No, there's no way in heck we as a full party of casters are going down into this narrow dungeon. We want a terrain advantage, and we want to take quests that reflect that"
-Give the party time to strategize and coordinate. In a balanced party this is nice, but optional. In a full party of spellcasters, it's very nice to have a plan going into every encounter.
-Consider how easy it is to acquire magic items, because with everyone wanting the same ones party members will probably want to purchase them.
-Try to make sure that combat isn't always the solution. A full party of casters can come at any problem sideways. Let them.

Best of luck to you with your game!

[Tiadoppler]

Don't change a thing! I'd start the campaign with a few relatively easy combats, just to ease them into things and let your players figure out if there's a problem. If there's a balance change that needs to be addressed, it'll come up during those early encounters. A smart group of players can find lots of great and interesting strategies for balancing out their weaknesses.

If you lower AC and HP of enemies, you lower the CR, and therefore the XP reward.

[Nidgit]

Ramp up enemy difficulty slowly until they develop some synergy and you can better gauge their collective strength. For the first big challenges you give them, include either a non-combat solution or some sort of contingency in case they do wipe.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind that if the PCs become well-known, the enemies who are aware of who they are will probably plan things in consequences.

Same way that if mooks are hired to go after Steve the Master of Poison, they'll probably try to have counters against poison.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You are gonna have to feel this one out. Start with a string of easy and medium encounters and see what goes wrong.

My suspicion is they'll always wanna be resting and recharging and you'll need to balance that.

If I was in your party I'd wanna have fun with it. Both the challenging skinny dungeon crawls and the more wizard friendly environments.

[Slayn82]

Try to include plenty of opportunities for cover in the battle map, so they can make up a bit for their low AC, and have the enemies trade a few shots with them from distance before charging to their face.

Allow their damage spells to wreck those sources of cover, or cause it to burn - dex dc 10 to avoid 1d8 damage to creatures taking cover on the burning object. Usually, give from 10 to 30 HP to objects being used as cover. Once it's HP falls to 0, it provides no cover.

Other option is have the enemies fall prone to impose disadvantage on the casters attacks. So, the Hexblade could feel rewarding to go on melee instead of using Eldritch Blast, and the others would use spells with saves.

[Jiece18]

Sounds like the party understands the risks of being a group of all casters. I wouldn't change to much if you already have your campaign planned out. A group of casters who are smart can easily crush a melee focused encounter, plus they might have more fun with it. Just a more detail about the battlefield and surrounding environment so they know all their options. Magic Items and other loot might pose a slight problem since the group pretty much pulls from the same type of items.

[Mortis_Elrod]

you players are asking to be challenged and no to be babied, i'd probably not change a thing.

And to be fair the party looks fine.

the bard is functionally both a rogue and a cleric for buffs and extra damage when needed.

the divine soul sorcerer can easily be a healer.

the hexblade is very martial and with the support of his teammates can be an effective front liner.

a wizard rounds it out even better with control.



Don't change anything for a few sessions at least and maybe not even then unless they ask it. Sounds like they want a game to remember and this is how you do it.

[ImproperJustice]

You may be pleasantly suprised by how an asymmetric party overcomes challenges.

If they play to strengths magic can greatly aide stealth, diplomacy, and exploration.

Mid to late game, a potential quadruple fireball barrage can clear a lot of opposition in a hurry.

I would not stress.

[bc56]

So, this is one of those things where it looks worse than it really is.

All classes are more or less balanced against each other. That means that you have approximately the same strength party as a standard party, or a fighter-only party. The strength manifests differently. You'll find that your team of casters will be very strong offensively, since they have tons of spells they can blast out. The big change is that they will want to rest more often, mainly to make up for their lower HP.

In other words: don't stress it.

[Sk8ter274]

I gotta say, I honestly did not expect such a rapid response and with such support. I will keep everything in mind and see where it goes. Now that I've gotten a new perspective, it does seem less troublesome than I first expected. It's probably first time DM jitters and my control freak tendencies. But if they do survive long enough, I might have to actually up the difficulty since multiple fireballs might make quick work. Will keep you posted if I have more problems

[Tanarii]

I've talked with my DM and others and they say that balance isn't my responsibility outside of making sure I don't throw enemies that aren't level appropriate and that it's up to the players to make up for their lack of bulk by being smart about it. The real issue is going to be: are they willing or is it even possible for them to roll up new characters if they TPK? Because if you've got this cool campaign planned out and it gutters out because of this. Hopefully if it happens, it'll happen at level 3 or 4 if you're not pulling punches, especially in the long rest department. That way they can get started again easily. (Thought inspired by the ongoing TPK thread.)

They'll be weak if powerful melee enemies can get in close to them while avoiding being bottlenecks, they blow spell slots faster than 1 each a battle (or two for Deadly battles), or they have to push past when they'd normally reasonable expect a long rest.

Otoh they'll be very strong if they can kite enemies easily and get long rests regularly.

IMO it'll mostly depend on how you're handling resting. You can mix and match types of encounters pretty easily, unless you've already got very specific terrain and creatures in mind.

[Armored Walrus]

I wouldn't change anything. They may not have a "tank" or "healer" but they can cast Sleep 20 times between them if they need to. They will have plenty of resources to play a normally-balanced game.

Just like you wouldn't purposely build against the PCs in encounter-design, I'm of the opinion that you also don't purposely build for them.

[opaopajr]

Do nothing and let them enjoy the challenge of figuring it out! :smallcool: They punched their ticket, they have an idea they'll have to adjust their strategy & tactics. That's the sort of fun they sought out by choosing their PCs as so. :smallsmile:

[lperkins2]

So, I read the title and expected the thread to be voicing concern about how easily the all-caster-party roflstomped something. In my experience, a party full of decently built casters is capable of anything the 'balanced' party can candle, often without visible signs of straining until they get in seriously over their heads.

In part, this is because most groups don't run anywhere near the 6-8 encounters per officially recommended, so they tend to have resources to spare. But in large part it is simply because 4 full casters have at least 8 top-level slots, at any given level. This means they can budget 1 top level spell for every fight, and 1 top level spell will often trivialize an encounter. Add in the lower spell slots, and they can often power through the day's adventure with resources to spare and minimal attacks incoming. Of course, this depends on the party having a good selection of spells, and not getting caught with their trousers down too often.

It doesn't look like this party will be hurting for healing either, with a favoured soul sorcerer and a bard. Low level combat healing sucks anyway, unless you've got a life cleric. At higher levels, the bard can magical secret the paladin mega-heal spell, or similar.

Since you're on roll20, I assume you'll be using a combat grid. This is a good thing, for a party that can't afford to tangle in close combat, try to make your maps reasonably detailed, so the party can tell what's going on well enough to maximize the utility of their spells.

[Tanarii]

Low level combat healing sucks anyway, unless you've got a life cleric.This is not accurate. Low level combat healing is when it's the most effective, since it's 100%, and relatively high compared to enemy expected DPR on your tanks.

It will be far less effective in this case though, since they've got a party full of relatively low AC characters.

[lperkins2]

This is not accurate. Low level combat healing is when it's the most effective, since it's 100%, and relatively high compared to enemy expected DPR on your tanks.

It will be far less effective in this case though, since they've got a party full of relatively low AC characters.

Higher than the expected average incoming damage, yes, worthwhile? Not so much. Cure wounds at first level heals 1d8+3 (assuming maxed starting wisdom), with a range of touch. That's an average of 7 damage healed, and a min of 4. The standard goblin does 1d6+2, or 5 damage on a hit. This means the cure spell will usually reverse a single hit, with a little left over. 20% of the time, it won't heal the target completely. Again, that's first level spell with a range of touch. If you're 2nd level, and encountering things a bit tougher (like a single bugbear backed up by a couple goblins), the first level slot won't reverse a single hit, or if you don't want to get in close and using healing word.

Meanwhile, the opportunity cost on that first level slot is something like casting sleep, or web, or something else that will prevent the damage from accruing in the first place.

At higher level, there are better healing spells, that do more than 1d8/SL+mod, with longer casting times, so not really suitable for combat healing.

[MrStabby]

I am in the "play it through and see what happens" camp, but with a couple of potential warnings.

1) the encounter ending spells may not end encounters any more. A well placed wall of force can trivialize an encounter when the barbarian and the paladin can both tank and kill one half of the encounter then the other. With much lower AC and DpR on your frontliners you may find that you need a few more magical resources to power through.

2) the party should be generally ok but there may be a few things to note. Creatures like the Rakshasa or even anything with magical resistance may pose a bit of a problem. This is pretty clear. What is worth noting is that most go-to damage spells are fire related. Throw a couple of demons/fire elementals at them and they could be in trouble (ok banishment can work wonders but still they are one failed save from a really tough encounter).

Being ambushed is also potentially an issue. Poor positioning, surprised condition, low HP, low AC... Bad times.

[Citan]

Hi!

I see there were many great advices given already, I'm afraid I don't have much to add.
I'd probably not play with the "change monsters" or "add NPC" option, but just use the two following cursors...
- encounter difficulty
- encounter rate.

In the first few sessions, make sure that you go light on them, either by throwing several encounters that don't require heavy use of resources, or 1-2 very hard encounters, so they can grasp their abilities and how to manage them. Make them happen in places providing enough covers (like open-sky ruins of a castle, town hall with furnitures, forest, dungeon with lockable doors). Put a weight on melee people, be light on archers, so they can understand how to deal with each (melee: lock down, archer: block view).

Give them chances to get information about what's coming next (don't babyfeed though, just let them know that if they make the effort, they will probably get information), so they learn to play their strengths (Bard: social checks to get information, Warlock: silently spying thanks to Disguise Self / short rest Invisibility for example, Sorcerer gaining allies through Subtle Suggestion, Wizard using and abusing of adventuring rituals such as Alarm etc)...

Once you feel they know well enough how to play their characters and when to (not) use spells, crank up difficulty: introduce traps, ambushes, more archers, enemy casters, coverless encounters, etc...

In short: just give yourself the rule "start very easy but gently crank up difficulty every next encounter" and you all should be fine and have fun. :=)

[Tanarii]

Higher than the expected average incoming damage, yes, worthwhile? Not so much. Cure wounds at first level heals 1d8+3 (assuming maxed starting wisdom), with a range of touch. That's an average of 7 damage healed, and a min of 4. The standard goblin does 1d6+2, or 5 damage on a hit. This means the cure spell will usually reverse a single hit, with a little left over. 20% of the time, it won't heal the target completely. You're making the typical mistake of ignoring that healing is 100% effective, and attacks are not.

A standard goblin with +4 to hit, hits a level 1 Tank (Cleric, Paladin, Fighter) in Chain and shield (AC 18) on a 14 or higher. That's a DPR 1.75. A single Cure Wounds spell (7.5 hps) for 1 action negates 4 goblin actions. That's some serious action economy.

Like I said, low level is when combat healing is at its best. But in a party without Tanks, who reduce enemy DPR due to lower hit rate, thus enhancing relative effect of 100% effective healing, it's going to be less effective.

[Cespenar]

3. They'll be essentially running the campaign from 1998 Baldur's Gate computer with quite a bit of homebrew and changes using 5th edition

I think protecting the drow party member's identity in the Sword Coast would prove harder than surviving with a full caster party. Haven't they successfully caught and almost burned Viconia to death in the second game? And she was a level 7-8 Cleric at the time.

[AHF]

I think protecting the drow party member's identity in the Sword Coast would prove harder than surviving with a full caster party. Haven't they successfully caught and almost burned Viconia to death in the second game? And she was a level 7-8 Cleric at the time.

He is talking about the first game where she is introduced in an encounter where a member of the Flaming Fist is trying to kill her. Other than the intro's in both games, however, there are nothing more than a few snide comments about her race during the game. It isn't even a complete dealbreaker with surface elves living on an entrance to the Underdark in the second game. Where you see more of the anti-drow animus is in her conversation where she relates past events that happened outside of the player character's presence.

Having played BG, the group should be amazing from the beginning if sleep is anywhere near as powerful in your homebrew version as it was in the original game. The big bad who is very magic resistant as well as magic immune/highly resistant golems, jellies, skeletons and werewolves might provide the biggest challenge for the original game's storyline for a party like this.

You picked a good storyline to crib from for sure!

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, let it ride. Part of the fun of atypical parties is figuring out how to make them work - adjusting strategies, roles, responses to threats and opportunities, etc.

Kind of like strange character builds, only with far more pieces.

(Wizards make great scouts. If they get caught, it only costs an hour and 10 gold to resummon the familiar)

[Sk8ter274]

I think protecting the drow party member's identity in the Sword Coast would prove harder than surviving with a full caster party. Haven't they successfully caught and almost burned Viconia to death in the second game? And she was a level 7-8 Cleric at the time.

That's where the homebrew bit comes in. It's essentially 50yrs after and the original party that killed Saveroc has retired/died with age after establishing a Mercenary Guild that specializes in sending a single person per mission, no matter how difficult. The Guild function similar to the Hero Association from One Punch Man with ranks from A-D with only 12 S Rank member that are level 17 or higher, but the catch is each memebrr has to be invited due to a feat they've accomplished on their own like taking out a bandit group of or killing a hydra. At most, the guild might send 2 (1 Rank B & 1 Rank D) as mentor and apprentice on a mission. The "group" is more or less gonna be forced together due to a clerical mistake in which they were all sent on the same mission by different branches. They'll be following the same path, but with different quest and enemies that ends with a showdown with a dragon(haven't decided on color) whose been driven mad to resurrect Saveroc in order to reach godhood.

[Cespenar]

He is talking about the first game where she is introduced in an encounter where a member of the Flaming Fist is trying to kill her. Other than the intro's in both games, however, there are nothing more than a few snide comments about her race during the game. It isn't even a complete dealbreaker with surface elves living on an entrance to the Underdark in the second game. Where you see more of the anti-drow animus is in her conversation where she relates past events that happened outside of the player character's presence.

Yeah, they skim those bits in the other parts of the game out of fear of derailment, I suppose, but the setting's hate towards the drow during that time period is pretty famous.


That's where the homebrew bit comes in. It's essentially 50yrs after and the original party that killed Saveroc has retired/died with age after establishing a Mercenary Guild that specializes in sending a single person per mission, no matter how difficult. The Guild function similar to the Hero Association from One Punch Man with ranks from A-D with only 12 S Rank member that are level 17 or higher, but the catch is each memebrr has to be invited due to a feat they've accomplished on their own like taking out a bandit group of or killing a hydra. At most, the guild might send 2 (1 Rank B & 1 Rank D) as mentor and apprentice on a mission. The "group" is more or less gonna be forced together due to a clerical mistake in which they were all sent on the same mission by different branches. They'll be following the same path, but with different quest and enemies that ends with a showdown with a dragon(haven't decided on color) whose been driven mad to resurrect Saveroc in order to reach godhood.

Wow, a BG/OPM mash up? What a time to be alive. :smalltongue:

Cool idea, by the way. Also give Murder in Baldur's Gate (a Sundering adventure module, with 3.5, 4e and 5e rulesets) a read, if you can. Even if you won't run it, it contains an enormous amount of Baldur's Gate lore, locations and setting info to run a good campaign in.