Belkar's TRUE alliegnment

[WarlockBeast]

Belkar's allignment was revealed in the OotS Board game.

He is:....... Selfish Evil.

If it had to be official he is Chaotic Evil.



Feel the wrath of belkar.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Wow. Youre smart. You actually agree that hes CE. Team up with me and help me smite the people who claim hes NE or CN or some other rubbish. Please.

[RAGE KING!]

RICH. SAYS. HE. IS. CHAOTIC. EVIL.

LIKE. ME. (Xykon).

[I'm da Rogue!]

:smalleek: Wait, were there any people who actually thought that Belkar is Chaotic Neutral? Or Neutral Evil?:smalleek:

Simple math, people:


Evil+Chaos = :belkar:

[Morty]

:smalleek: Wait, were there any people who actually thought that Belkar is Chaotic Neutral? Or Neutral Evil?:smalleek:



You'd be amazed how many. I've seen people claiming that he's CN. I heard that there were claims he's CG, but I belive those were exagerrations or jokes.

[Setra]

>_> My sig speaks for me

[NerfTW]

It's mostly people who feel that it's wrong to like a character who's evil, therefore they claim Belkar's just an anti-hero, like Wolverine or Punisher. Then they make up convoluted explanations as to why selling someone into slavery or harvesting kidneys is really "good".

I'm reminded of Homer Simpson


Sometimes I get bored, so I make up my own plot

[DraPrime]

Setra, that quote in the sig should be required reading for any OOTS fan. How could anyone think that Belkar is not evil or chaotic? What's next, Belkar is really a paladin?

[Setra]

How could anyone think that Belkar is not evil?
To paraphrase another post from a while back.

People like Belkar, but also dislike the thought of liking something, or someone evil. So basically they want to think of him as not evil, so that they will not be liking something evil.

Or something to that effect.

[LM TR]

evil characters are the most funny ones

and @ NerfTW
Homer Simpson is an example of CN like nobody else

[Porthos]

Just remember folks, every time someone claims Belkar isn't Chaotic Evil, Belkar kills a kitten.

Won't someone please think of the kittens! :smalleek:

[Gundato]

To be fair, the argument for him not being CE usually involves his WIS score, and cites that one gag where Owl's Wisdom let him heal Elan. I have yet to see someone stupid enough to argue that non-buffed Belkar isn't, at the very least, evil.

But I think everyone can agree that, at the very least, his behavior and mannerisms suggest CE.

[Vonriel]

Gundato, who cares what his behavior and mannerisms suggest! The creator of the comic - I say again, the creator of the comic - said he was chaotic evil. End of discussion.

[hanzo66]

To paraphrase another post from a while back.

People like Belkar, but also dislike the thought of liking something, or someone evil. So basically they want to think of him as not evil, so that they will not be liking something evil.

Or something to that effect.

I happen to like Evil characters in webcomics. Hell, one of my favorite moments in the comics is Xykon's Superball trick.

[silvadel]

Belkar + Helm of Opposite Alignment = Miko before she fell.

[Gundato]

Gundato, who cares what his behavior and mannerisms suggest! The creator of the comic - I say again, the creator of the comic - said he was chaotic evil. End of discussion.

You would think that would work, but look at how many Black Mage ripoffs there are out there. Half of those don't even count as evil, yet the creators seem to think so. This is just one of those rare situations where the creator knows what he is talking about.

But, if it will make you feel better, I can avoid pointing out the other side's arguments (regardless of merit) in the future.

[Kreistor]

Belkar is Lawful Good.

Proof:

I can't believe you opened this spoiler box.

[TRM]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

[Silkenfist]

Belkar + Helm of Opposite Alignment = Miko before she fell.

I'd dare to say that Belkar is more CE than Miko ever were LG. The OOTS character with the deepest roots in LG is probably Hinjo, followed by O-Chul.

[Setra]

I happen to like Evil characters in webcomics. Hell, one of my favorite moments in the comics is Xykon's Superball trick.
I know, that was awesomely evil.

[Kreistor]

I happen to like Evil characters in webcomics. Hell, one of my favorite moments in the comics is Xykon's Superball trick.

Technically, the mechanics do not allow that one to work. "The symbol must be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location." Some text placed on something that is spinning wildly is not in plain sight and is definitely not prominently displayed. The ball may be prominently displayed, but the symbol itself is moving too randomly for the symbol to be looked at in its entirety. You need to "look" at the symbol, and not just have it appear in your field of vision. Catching a glimpse of something is not looking at it.

Until the ball comes to rest, it doesn't affect anyone.

[Ecalsneerg]

Technically, the mechanics do not allow that one to work. "The symbol must be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location." Some text placed on something that is spinning wildly is not in plain sight and is definitely not prominently displayed. The ball may be prominently displayed, but the symbol itself is moving too randomly for the symbol to be looked at in its entirety. You need to "look" at the symbol, and not just have it appear in your field of vision. Catching a glimpse of something is not looking at it.

Until the ball comes to rest, it doesn't affect anyone.

Yeah, but if it followed the rules, it wouldn't be so awesomely funny.

[Tirian]

I understand that the Giant is very clear that Belkar is CE. At the same time, I find Belkar's evil acts to be largely talk. He suggests that Samantha be sold into slavery, he wants to annihilate the dirt farmer's village, he tries to kill Elan for enough XP to level and so on. These are jokes, and not evidence of Belkar's ethos any more than Elan's idiotic comments are proof that he is a sub-moron.

When you tally up his actions, or at least the beliefs that he holds for longer than two panels, it gets murkier, and I have long argued that Vaarsuivius' behavior meets the CE ideal more closely than Belkar's behavior does. But over the last forty strips, I think Rich has been doing a much better job of characterizing Belkar's evil, with the cruel treatment of the EoFaF and the selfishly endangering Haley at the end of #469 because he likes mayhem more than stealth. I hope this keeps up, because Belkar is a much better character when he is antagonistic toward the party's ideals rather than just being a sassmouth.

[Ing]

Technically, the mechanics do not allow that one to work. "The symbol must be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location." Some text placed on something that is spinning wildly is not in plain sight and is definitely not prominently displayed. The ball may be prominently displayed, but the symbol itself is moving too randomly for the symbol to be looked at in its entirety. You need to "look" at the symbol, and not just have it appear in your field of vision. Catching a glimpse of something is not looking at it.

Until the ball comes to rest, it doesn't affect anyone.

Unless Xyklon painted it with the spinning in mind and it's one of those optical illusion tricks where the real picture only comes into focus when spinning and moving (like the bird in the cage trick)

[Querzis]

I understand that the Giant is very clear that Belkar is CE. At the same time, I find Belkar's evil acts to be largely talk. He suggests that Samantha be sold into slavery, he wants to annihilate the dirt farmer's village, he tries to kill Elan for enough XP to level and so on. These are jokes, and not evidence of Belkar's ethos any more than Elan's idiotic comments are proof that he is a sub-moron.

Dude the reasons why its most of the time just talk is because the rest of the party (most of the time Roy) kept him from doing evil things but he still try to! An attempt to sell someone in slavery is just as evil as selling them into slavery, its not because the rest of the party stopped him that it change anything! Those arent freaking jokes, he would do it if nobody would stop him! Sure I know that in D&D, only actions matter and not intent but trying to do something is an action! Hell talking is a freaking action. And what happens when they leave Belkar alone? He kill the guard guarding his prison and write a message with his blood!

And V aint evil and definitly not chaotic. True neutral or lawfull neutral.

[hornma]

I don't understand how Belkar's word gets to be the end of the discussion. As far as I'm concerned, it just sends the conversation in a new direction.

What if Rich is himself "chaotic evil?" In that case, isn't it just as likely that Rich is lying about Belkar as telling the truth about Belkar? Rich saying one thing or another doesn't make it so, it only makes the object of the discussion Rich and his motivations. (How post-modern is that?)

I think that lying and conniving author/narrators are MUCH more fun than evil characters.

[hornma]

Okay, my last post makes NO SENSE unless you substitute "Rich's" in for "Belkar's" in the first line. Sorry about that.

[Querzis]

Okay, my last post makes NO SENSE unless you substitute "Rich's" in for "Belkar's" in the first line. Sorry about that.

You do realize you can edit your post instead of posting a second time right?

Anyway, even if you dont believe Rich, Belkar as always been and will probably always be very evil and chaotic.

[Kreistor]

Unless Xyklon painted it with the spinning in mind and it's one of those optical illusion tricks where the real picture only comes into focus when spinning and moving (like the bird in the cage trick)

Which makes it an Illusion spell that creates a symbol that looks like a Symbol of Insanity, but Illusions lack the effect of the spell (except for Shadow COnjurations, which can't do L8 spells, and Xykon said it was Symbol of Insanity, not a Shadow Conjuration of that spell). Symbols are engraved on a surface, not floating in air, so they can't be constructed to be made out by spinning (especially on a ball that will have a random axis for its spins).

Besides, a small object is not "prominent", and a smaller symbol on a small object is even less prominent. If you have to squint to make out the symbol, it's not going to affect you.

[Tirian]

The case for Belkar's fiendishness isn't helped by pointing out that he submits to democratic rule. He's a ranger, he could have snuck away from the party after they moved on, killed the two bandits, and then caught up with the party again. The mantra of Chaotic Evil is "Screw everyone, I claim the freedom to do what's right for me."

Sure, there's an unexplored tension. Belkar needs to accommodate Roy's wishes enough that he is allowed to continue traveling with them, because only a LG epic quest is going to give Belkar the opportunity for slaughter that he craves. But take that accommodation too far and doing everything that Roy tells you while muttering under your breath is just simpering obedience, which is a poor imitation of evil.

And we don't know that the message to Miko was written in the dead guard's blood, since it has been established that Belkar carries a red (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) marker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html). It's possibly blood, but you'd sorta expect the guard's corpse to be a bit messier if that much blood came out of him.

[Jayabalard]

Gundato, who cares what his behavior and mannerisms suggest! The creator of the comic - I say again, the creator of the comic - said he was chaotic evil. End of discussion.was.

That was some time ago, and alignments can shift over time.

Discussion back on.

[Porthos]

:belkar:: *STAB* *STAB* *STAB*

:belkar:: That's three http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/mr_scruffy.jpg's dead. Anyone out there gonna make me kill another one?

[The Wanderer]

If Belkar were to weep and curse those who debate his alignment as he stabs the kitties, would that count towards an alignment change? :smallwink:

[Porthos]

If Belkar were to weep and curse those who debate his alignment as he stabs the kitties, would that count towards an alignment change? :smallwink:

The Belkster don't weep, so it aint an issue. :smallwink:

However if you want to weep, I dare you to search this forum for the terms "belkar alignment". I got over 400 hits on threads alone, and waaaaay too many of them were trying to say that Belkar isn't evil... he just likes to do "fun things". :smallamused:

[The Wanderer]

Oh trust me, I don't post a ton, (although I've been a wee bit more active lately... being between jobs means some more free time, night classes or no), but I've read those discussions, and the V gender discussions, and the what is the MITD threads, and the Miko discussions before her death so many times it gives me a mini-migraine every time I see a thread title about one of those issues.

Still, while I might have a good heart, I also have an evil brain, especially when it comes to jokes, hence my last one. I just consider myself lucky I didn't get any stabbing from you for making that joke. :smallwink:

[Porthos]

Oh trust me, I don't post a ton, (although I've been a wee bit more active lately... being between jobs means some more free time, night classes or no), but I've read those discussions, and the V gender discussions, and the what is the MITD threads, and the Miko discussions before her death so many times it gives me a mini-migraine every time I see a thread title about one of those issues.


Speaking of which....

Just to save us all some time:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6037
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2263789&postcount=35

And that's not even including the comics where is flat out intimates that Belkar is CE. :smallwink:


Still, while I might have a good heart, I also have an evil brain, especially when it comes to jokes, hence my last one. I just consider myself lucky I didn't get any stabbing from you for making that joke. :smallwink:

We must have similar brains, cause I thought it was pretty funny myself. :smalltongue:

[NerfTW]

First, he's not submitting to democratic rule. He's submitting to "We're going to kick your ass" rule. He knows that he's the odd man out if he turns on the party. They've threatened him with this before.

Second, refusing to believe the CREATOR OF THE CHARACTER because "he might be lying" pretty much makes any attempt at rational discussion moot. Anything anyone says is refuted by "Yeah, but they could have been lying!".

If you're going to honestly argue he's not evil, do it with more common sense than "la la la I can't hear you la la la".

[PsyBlade]

Belkar is Lawful Good.

Proof:

I can't believe you opened this spoiler box.

Opened hoping for a laugh. Laugh Get!

[Jayabalard]

The Belkster don't weep, He does when he's crushed with dispair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html).

[silvadel]

I'd dare to say that Belkar is more CE than Miko ever were LG. The OOTS character with the deepest roots in LG is probably Hinjo, followed by O-Chul.

Miko was absolutely humorless in her pursuit of lawful goodness. This is exactly opposite of Belkar who is absolutely humorful in his trainwreck of chaotic evilness.

[Porthos]

He does when he's crushed with dispair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html).

Mind Control doesn't count. :smalltongue:

[Mr.Ace]

I thought it was pretty clear that Belkar was Chaotic Evil. :smallannoyed:

I mean, he

-doesn't care for any one but himself and those he lusts for.
-killed many-a-creature even though they begged for mercy.
-carries around a lead sheet to prevent Detect Evil rays.
-hurts Elan just because of puns.
-throws daggers at Roy for fun.
-joined a Puppet Cult just so Banjo's Smiting could kill Roy.
-asked the Oracle if he'd ever kill Roy, Miko, Windstriker, or the Oracle.
-only gets sad when someone he lusts for makes him guilty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) or when he is hit by mind-controlling magic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)

The list would go on, but I don't really feel like writing any more.

:smallsigh:
~Ace

[Setra]

When someone comes up with a list of good acts he has performed of his own will, that roughly equals the evil in size...

Then we can talk CN.

[Lizard Lord]

Acutally is it just me or has no one claimed that Belkar was anything but chaotic evil ever since this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html ?

[Saithis Bladewing]

Don't be silly guys, Belkar is clearly a Lawful Good character.

By slaughtering those goblins, he has saved hundreds of innocent lives from their treachery. The guard he killed in prison? An undercover infernal agent. His lead sheet? A way of protecting the fact that he isn't actually evil. He hasn't killed his teammates, so he clearly has a sense of honour. I think Belkar is actually a paladin in disguise, working to cleanse the world of evil!

:smallsigh: If you didn't get the sarcasm in this post, I pity you.

[I'm da Rogue!]

^Agreed :smallbiggrin:

I can't believe you guys are still talking about it

[LordVader]

I understand that the Giant is very clear that Belkar is CE. At the same time, I find Belkar's evil acts to be largely talk. He suggests that Samantha be sold into slavery, he wants to annihilate the dirt farmer's village, he tries to kill Elan for enough XP to level and so on. These are jokes, and not evidence of Belkar's ethos any more than Elan's idiotic comments are proof that he is a sub-moron.

When you tally up his actions, or at least the beliefs that he holds for longer than two panels, it gets murkier, and I have long argued that Vaarsuivius' behavior meets the CE ideal more closely than Belkar's behavior does. But over the last forty strips, I think Rich has been doing a much better job of characterizing Belkar's evil, with the cruel treatment of the EoFaF and the selfishly endangering Haley at the end of #469 because he likes mayhem more than stealth. I hope this keeps up, because Belkar is a much better character when he is antagonistic toward the party's ideals rather than just being a sassmouth.

This has already been stated, I believe, but here I go.
They're not jokes. He would do it if the rest of the party would let him, but seeing as they're all Neutral at best, he can't really get away with anything. Didn't the fact that he saved Hinjo's life so he could continue slaughtering innocents in taverns speak anything about his personality to you?:smalltongue:

[Roderick_BR]

You'd be amazed how many. I've seen people claiming that he's CN. I heard that there were claims he's CG, but I belive those were exagerrations or jokes.

Some people even claimed that while Rich designed him to be chaotic evil, he mistakenly writes Belkar Chaotic Neutral/Neutral Evil, like a player that misinterprets rules. :smallannoyed:

[twerk_face]

Look, i do think hes CE. Its just that he's not CE in the sense that he just kills anything and everything on a whim. I think he varies. He is CE but leaning towards CN IMO

[Om]

This thread has signficantly dented my faith in mankind.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

This thread has signficantly dented my faith in mankind.

Seconded.

ONE CHARACTER! WHY, POST LENGTH RULE!? WHY??

[Green Bean]

Now now. I believe that Belkar is as morally complex as any other character, struggling to strike the balance between his inner good and evil. I have included a diagram to illustrate.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/psych.png

[newcresty]

Those who insist on a non CE :belkar: will repent when :belkar: himself stab them in the eye, cut their troaths off and carve out their kidneys, and then sell their sisters and daughter to slavery and have some fun with their wifes

come people accept it already, Belkar has defined himself as CHAOTIC, since i dont think he is Chaotic neutral, cause that is too stupid even to wirte it, and even less Chaotic Good, because all he want is to slaughter living beings, as example with Mitd, what was 1st belkar though? let me show you: Let's kill it.)

in his school he were preveneted from STAB HIS BUDDIES IN THE EYE

he wanted to be a grown up ranger so he can BRUTALLY MURDER HIS OLD BUDDIES IN THEIR DREAMLESS SLEEPS

he wanted to KILL ELAN TO DING UP A LEVEL!!

is a fact, :belkar: is Chaotic Evil

EDIT: h_u, u should change that spoiler tag, belkar hasn't and devil and an agel, he has 2 devils, the angel doesn't work there anymore... WHY HE ISN'T JOLLY!, remember that?

[BobTheFerret]

[in re h_v's drawing] Oh no no no... they had a strip about that. Belkar's angel does not work with him anymore. Instead, he has two devils and the slaad.

[Green Bean]

[in re h_v's drawing] Oh no no no... they had a strip about that. Belkar's angel does not work with him anymore. Instead, he has two devils and the slaad.

It does look like an angel, doesn't it. It always does, right up until the stabbing starts... :smallamused:

[Ariko]

Setra, that quote in the sig should be required reading for any OOTS fan. How could anyone think that Belkar is not evil or chaotic? What's next, Belkar is really a paladin?

Actually, i think I remember a thread or at least a post at some point in the past suggesting exactly that.:smallamused:

[newcresty]

belkar is indeed a paladin, a paladin of a cause, the greater cause of belkar himself, and by the cause of belkar, everything who is not belkar is evil and must be smited

i love to say belkar =D

[Maratanos]

I don't understand how Belkar's word gets to be the end of the discussion. As far as I'm concerned, it just sends the conversation in a new direction.

What if Rich is himself "chaotic evil?" In that case, isn't it just as likely that Rich is lying about Belkar as telling the truth about Belkar? Rich saying one thing or another doesn't make it so, it only makes the object of the discussion Rich and his motivations. (How post-modern is that?)

I think that lying and conniving author/narrators are MUCH more fun than evil characters.

Whoa, man. Are you calling the Giant "evil"? :smalleek:


That's a very dangerous thing to do, you know.:smallwink:

[Shatteredtower]

This thread has signficantly dented my faith in mankind.

Then you must have lead a disturbingly sheltered life to date.


It does look like an angel, doesn't it. It always does, right up until the stabbing starts... :smallamused:

Well played.

Belkar could be chaotic neutral if it wasn't for the abundance of evil moments and impulses. Those would make him neutral evil, if it wasn't for the generally chaotic behaviour. He'd be lawful good -- provided his actions were much more often lawful or good or both.

Gee, with all that in mind, how can I tell what alignment he is?

[Dimicus]

These two strips erase any doubt:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html

(It's against the paladin code to associate oneself with an evil character. Belkar just forgot that said paladin must know she is associating with an evil character.)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html

(Somewhat speaks for itself.)

[Kish]

And we don't know that the message to Miko was written in the dead guard's blood,
Yes, yes we do.

[Lamech]

Belkar is positively evil, and even more chaotic. But there is one point I would like to make about the corpse mutilation. Why would that be an evil act? What would a good character do, leave a sign on the body saying please raise me? Corpse mutilation ≠ evil

[Green Bean]

Belkar is positively evil, and even more chaotic. But there is one point I would like to make about the corpse mutilation. Why would that be an evil act? What would a good character do, leave a sign on the body saying please raise me? Corpse mutilation ≠ evil

One could argue that a good character wouldn't have killed the guard in the first place. Besides, the biggest justification I've heard is that it causes needless pain. What about the guard's friends and family who have to deal with the aftermath?

[Lamech]

Ummm.... the guard didn't really have his corpse mutilated he may have had it drained of blood. Belkar does have a red marker and was able to get his daggers back. I don't recall typing anything about the guard at all. Several people have claimed or posted links claiming that corpse mutilation was evil without specifying the guard. I assumed that included things like the destruction of the two kobolds' bodies.

Anyway on the guard...
Killing the guard may have been an evil act if escaping was evil or if Belkar could have incapacitated the guard. If killing the guard wasn't evil using the blood to cause Miko to fight him in a one vs. one duel wasn't evil because then only one more person unlawfully holding Belkar would die. That would cut down on loss of life.

I don't think killing the guard was evil. Belkar had to escape. Azure city had no right to arrest Belkar for any of his crimes. Belkar was out of Azure territory. In 171 Roy says that people can't be sent to jail for crime committed outside of a kingdom's territory. Therefore the arrest was unlawful. If the city has already violated the law a fair trail can be assumed out. Belkar had no reason to believe that he was being anything but kidnapped and about to be murdered.
We see one panel Belkar smacking guard against ceiling, and the next panel Belkar killing the guard. The guard may not have been incapacitated, and may have been able to call for help. That would have necessitated killing the guard. So killing the guard may or may not have been evil.
Finally taunting Miko made Miko fight Belkar without support, in an unfavorable battlefield. In fact if Belkar wanted to he could have killed Miko then snuck away.

[VanBuren]

But he used the guard's blood for the sole purpose of calling Miko out to a duel. That sounds pretty evil to me.

[Green Bean]

Even if killing the guard was necessary (a pretty big 'if'), taunting Miko wasn't. If Belkar honestly believed he was being falsely imprisoned, why didn't he just leave? He has a better Hide/Move Silently score than 99% of the folks in the city; nothing was stopping him from just walking out. Instead, he stayed behind so he could make a paladin fall.

[newcresty]

this strip also speak by itself

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

and this one explain why Belkar didn't go back to kill samantha and his father

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html

for belkar killing is not funny if nobody see him, well, funnier, whatever, if nobody see him it dont worth the effort, plus if his victim dont beg for mercy or cry in pain isn't funny either


and, the fact of killing the guard can be discussed as an evil act or no, if it weren't by the fact that elan, in the same strip says: :belkar: :"Let's see, im alone, wounded, and barely armed in a foreign land, trapped in a massive fortress swarming with nameless hostile human sentries" :belkar: :"It's like my birthday cames early, only instead of birthday cake, there are dead humans. Well, more dead humans, at any rate". Strongly implying he DESIRE and LOVE to kill inocent humans that much that he compares with him birthday

need more proofs? =/

[Shatteredtower]

need more proofs? =/

No, but I always enjoy them, at least when it comes to the discussion of Belkar's alignment. :smallwink:

[Edea]

Belkar's alignment will occur when Jupiter enters the house of Scorpio.

[Lamech]

Even if killing the guard was necessary (a pretty big 'if'), taunting Miko wasn't. If Belkar honestly believed he was being falsely imprisoned, why didn't he just leave? He has a better Hide/Move Silently score than 99% of the folks in the city; nothing was stopping him from just walking out. Instead, he stayed behind so he could make a paladin fall.

Because then he could kill Miko Azure cities best tracker. Miko wasn't a very good tracker mabey a +5 tops, so I doubt Azure city would have been able to send anyone else after Belkar. Also if Miko died I doubt Azure city would send a Miko that lost a level against her killer who possibly gained a level. Also calling Miko out to a duel in the way Belkar did, made Miko be the only one he had to fight. Besides it was Miko's choice to try and track Belkar down again. This way if Miko decided to track Belkar down again Belakr would get to choose the battle field.


See 281 Belkar says "Now up so I can- Huh. Well, crap. Now THAT'S not going to be any fun, is it?" From that I assumed that Belkar's original plan was to kill Miko, but after knocking Miko out, Belkat decided that making Miko lose her powers was funner and worse for Miko. Of course, trying to make Miko lose her status as a paladin was a chaotic evil act, and if he stayed behind for that purpose alone then, yes calling Miko out to the duel was a chotic evil act.

[Green Bean]

Because then he could kill Miko Azure cities best tracker. Miko wasn't a very good tracker mabey a +5 tops, so I doubt Azure city would have been able to send anyone else after Belkar. Also if Miko died I doubt Azure city would send a Miko that lost a level against her killer who possibly gained a level. Also calling Miko out to a duel in the way Belkar did, made Miko be the only one he had to fight. Besides it was Miko's choice to try and track Belkar down again. This way if Miko decided to track Belkar down again Belakr would get to choose the battle field.



Exactly. In your own words; 'Miko wasn't a very good tracker maybe a +5 tops'. The DC for tracking a Small foe who's trying to hide while going over hard ground (the city + the hard rock outside of the city) is DC 26. Miko would not be able to find Belkar, even if she took 20.

[Lamech]

If Belkar didn't leave those signs Miko would have had to wait to track Belkar down till he did something like leave the city. Then a diviner could find belkar and Miko could start from there eventually tracking Belkar down; possibly to a place where Belkar couldn't win.
If Miko wasn't interested in tracking Belkar down after the escape she wouldn't have followed the signs in the first place. If Miko was interested in tracking Belkar down, then Belkar would have probably had to fight Miko eventually. So if Belkar had to fight Miko, it would be best to fight in a place where he would win.

[Green Bean]

If Belkar didn't leave those signs Miko would have had to wait to track Belkar down till he did something like leave the city. Then a diviner could find belkar and Miko could start from there eventually tracking Belkar down; possibly to a place where Belkar couldn't win.
If Miko wasn't interested in tracking Belkar down after the escape she wouldn't have followed the signs in the first place. If Miko was interested in tracking Belkar down, then Belkar would have probably had to fight Miko eventually. So if Belkar had to fight Miko, it would be best to fight in a place where he would win.

If they just got the diviner to find Belkar, then how on earth would taking out one paladin, no matter how powerful, prevent the SG from tracking him down? It's not like the Sapphire Guard can't, you know, send someone else (or even a whole squad).

[Lamech]

Because Belkar would probably be moving and unless there was a paladin close by Belkar would be gone by the time the paladin or the whole squad got there. Then they would still need to track Belkar down again, but they would have a starting point. If twentey Paladins who can't track get to where Belkar was twenty minutes ago they won't find Belkar. Rember back in 290 when the two Paladins got to Lirian's gate they didn't notice the piece of Redcloak or the footprints. Also after Belkar escaped Hinjo was wondering if Miko would be able to track Belkar down despite the huge signs.

Also the problem with a squad is the more Paladins that the Azure city sends out the higher the chance that Belkar will spot one or hears of a bunch of Paladins in blue, before Belkar is spotted himself. A whole squad of Paladins is useless if Belkar sees them first and decides to hide.

Plus if the squads individual members are to weak Belkar could just pick them off.

[Green Bean]

Because Belkar would probably be moving and unless there was a paladin close by Belkar would be gone by the time the paladin or the whole squad got there. Then they would still need to track Belkar down again, but they would have a starting point. If twentey Paladins who can't track get to where Belkar was twenty minutes ago they won't find Belkar. Rember back in 290 when the two Paladins got to Lirian's gate they didn't notice the piece of Redcloak or the footprints. Also after Belkar escaped Hinjo was wondering if Miko would be able to track Belkar down despite the huge signs.

Also the problem with a squad is the more Paladins that the Azure city sends out the higher the chance that Belkar will spot one or hears of a bunch of Paladins in blue, before Belkar is spotted himself. A whole squad of Paladins is useless if Belkar sees them first and decides to hide.

Plus if the squads individual members are to weak Belkar could just pick them off.

But the exact same thing would happen with Miko. She doesn't have enough ranks to track him; she'd be every bit as effective as a equal CR paladin squad with no tracking abilities. There was absolutely no reason to taunt her.

[newcresty]

you mean, belkar hiding? the same way we would hide from 20~ goblins who are under his feets, inside a city where he is uncapable of kiling without activating the mark, and he still prefer to take the risk of killing them with their own intestines to see if it is considered suicide?

[Ing]

Which makes it an Illusion spell that creates a symbol that looks like a Symbol of Insanity, but Illusions lack the effect of the spell (except for Shadow COnjurations, which can't do L8 spells, and Xykon said it was Symbol of Insanity, not a Shadow Conjuration of that spell). Symbols are engraved on a surface, not floating in air, so they can't be constructed to be made out by spinning (especially on a ball that will have a random axis for its spins).

Besides, a small object is not "prominent", and a smaller symbol on a small object is even less prominent. If you have to squint to make out the symbol, it's not going to affect you.

An Optical Illusion is not a spell. It's a simple manipulation of perception

[Lamech]

But the exact same thing would happen with Miko. She doesn't have enough ranks to track him; she'd be every bit as effective as a equal CR paladin squad with no tracking abilities. There was absolutely no reason to taunt her.

She's a paladin with so probably 14- 18 wisdom. Miko also hasone rank in survival. Thats a +3 to +5. If Miko is tracking Belkar over soft ground the DC would be an 11, so Miko could follow that with a take 10. Also with Miko's lay hands ability she should be able to forced march for a while and catch Belkar. If Miko gets a starting point, she be might be able to track down Belkar better that a squad of paladins with no tracking ablity.

[Ganurath]

Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Done.

[Green Bean]

She's a paladin with so probably 14- 18 wisdom. Miko also hasone rank in survival. Thats a +3 to +5. If Miko is tracking Belkar over soft ground the DC would be an 11, so Miko could follow that with a take 10. Also with Miko's lay hands ability she should be able to forced march for a while and catch Belkar. If Miko gets a starting point, she be might be able to track down Belkar better that a squad of paladins with no tracking ablity.

Except that we have no idea what her WIS stat is. And the ground around Azure City is mountainous and rocky. And there's a +5 to DC if Belkar covers his tracks. And you have to move at half speed while tracking. And that Belkar has Hide and Move Silently high enough that even if Miko somehow finds him, she won't be able to see him.

[Daimbert]

Well, I'm not going to really argue over what his alignment is, but I WILL note that there are some things written that raise some questions. Chaotic I think is certain, as given in the examples:

1) If Belkar is Chaotic Evil, why did he think that Miko killing him AFTER he killed a guard would cause her to fall? After all, she herself on multiple occasions says that she kills things with an evil alignment "carte blanche", so killing him wouldn't cause her to fall if THOSE didn't. His hiding his alignment hints at his wanting her to THINK that he was evil so that she WOULD kill him ... since he wouldn't be evil, that (I think, I don't know the rules for paladins) would leave out the "he was evil" justification. Possible No-Prize-ish explanation: Belkar's not that bright, and doesn't know that much about the rules, so he THINKS that it would cause her to fall ... but he's wrong.

2) What are the alignments of his "opposites"? They seem to both be Lawful: Yikyik is so Lawful he attacks when Belkar (an ally) leaves his threatened area (which may well have been a hint that they weren't allies [grin]) and Yokyok is easy to see as someone following a rigid code of conduct. But are they Good, Evil or Neutral? Well, Yikyik is unlikely to be Good if he's willing to associate with the Linear Guild, and we don't really know about Yokyok but we could assume it's similar to his father's. So that makes them Evil or Neutral. If Evil, they'd have the same alignment as Belkar and not be an opposite at all; if Neutral, then they'd still fit the opposite view since the opposite of Neutral is Neutral. Possible answer: The opposites don't have to be complete opposites in all ways, so we can overlook that since it's only an issue for Belkar, the only "Evil" hero in the book.

3) Belkar seems to be just as willing to kill for a Good cause or an Evil cause. Sure, he originally suggests killing the farmers, but then is just as happy to kill the Ogres. On the wall, he contemplates killing Hinjo, and after saving him is more than pleased to kill hobgoblins and help save the city. Good or Evil, killing is all he cares about. Only if you consider killing (or liking it, perhaps) to be inherently Evil does that make Belkar Evil ... but killing is too large a part of D&D to make killing itself Evil (even though The Giant, who knows far more about that than I do, claims it kind of sort of does). So he's Evil iff liking killing is Evil; simply killing doesn't cut it.

So to me, he seems certainly Chaotic, but Evil depends on how we should interpret Evil in D&D ... and there are some things that seem to contradict that. But I'd accept his being Evil and just note some things that don't quite match up, but that have explanations for why it works that way.

That being said, he's certainly not GOOD [grin].

[Ganurath]

1: Belkar not know better. Dumder than table.
2: Yikyik not lawful, just making excuse to hurt people. Yikyik CE too, but good family man to LG son.
3. Belkar kill ogres because that way he have backup. Belkar kill hobgoblins not to save city, but because there were so many to kill. Belkar evil, est 0011.

[Morty]

1) If Belkar is Chaotic Evil, why did he think that Miko killing him AFTER he killed a guard would cause her to fall? After all, she herself on multiple occasions says that she kills things with an evil alignment "carte blanche", so killing him wouldn't cause her to fall if THOSE didn't. His hiding his alignment hints at his wanting her to THINK that he was evil so that she WOULD kill him ... since he wouldn't be evil, that (I think, I don't know the rules for paladins) would leave out the "he was evil" justification. Possible No-Prize-ish explanation: Belkar's not that bright, and doesn't know that much about the rules, so he THINKS that it would cause her to fall ... but he's wrong.

Well, I wouldn't suspect Belkar of understanding the paladin's Code of Conduct. He may very well be wrong. Besides, we don't know what exactly were the Evil creatures Miko killed. They might have been some irredeemable ones, like demons, abberations or undead.


2) What are the alignments of his "opposites"? They seem to both be Lawful: Yikyik is so Lawful he attacks when Belkar (an ally) leaves his threatened area (which may well have been a hint that they weren't allies [grin]) and Yokyok is easy to see as someone following a rigid code of conduct. But are they Good, Evil or Neutral? Well, Yikyik is unlikely to be Good if he's willing to associate with the Linear Guild, and we don't really know about Yokyok but we could assume it's similar to his father's. So that makes them Evil or Neutral. If Evil, they'd have the same alignment as Belkar and not be an opposite at all; if Neutral, then they'd still fit the opposite view since the opposite of Neutral is Neutral. Possible answer: The opposites don't have to be complete opposites in all ways, so we can overlook that since it's only an issue for Belkar, the only "Evil" hero in the book.

I remember vaguely it was said by Giant that YikYik was Belkar-like and wasn't his opposite; but his son could very well be LG.


3) Belkar seems to be just as willing to kill for a Good cause or an Evil cause. Sure, he originally suggests killing the farmers, but then is just as happy to kill the Ogres. On the wall, he contemplates killing Hinjo, and after saving him is more than pleased to kill hobgoblins and help save the city. Good or Evil, killing is all he cares about. Only if you consider killing (or liking it, perhaps) to be inherently Evil does that make Belkar Evil ... but killing is too large a part of D&D to make killing itself Evil (even though The Giant, who knows far more about that than I do, claims it kind of sort of does). So he's Evil iff liking killing is Evil; simply killing doesn't cut it.

Belkar enjoys killing greatly, I think that's evil no matter the definition. And alignment of victims doesn't matter in deciding wheter act of killing was good or evil, at least in case of rampant murder or robbery.


So to me, he seems certainly Chaotic, but Evil depends on how we should interpret Evil in D&D ... and there are some things that seem to contradict that. But I'd accept his being Evil and just note some things that don't quite match up, but that have explanations for why it works that way.

That being said, he's certainly not GOOD [grin].

Well, some things Belkar does may not be evil, or at least not very evil, but that doesn't change the fact that he's strongly Evil.

[Ziggy's_Roady]

Belkar was a Halfling Paladin who WAS LG, and was killed on a mission by a fellow paladin. Belkar was given a new chance, to become a Black Guard, and he took that chance. Now using his new unholy powers, he took Halfling form, and is now on a mission to destroy Paladins, which is why he IS IN FACT!!!! CE, and he hates the Sapphire Guard.

I kid of course, but that's still pretty interesting. And no people, Belkar is CE, get over it

[Lamech]

Except that we have no idea what her WIS stat is. And the ground around Azure City is mountainous and rocky. And there's a +5 to DC if Belkar covers his tracks. And you have to move at half speed while tracking. And that Belkar has Hide and Move Silently high enough that even if Miko somehow finds him, she won't be able to see him.

So is Belkar supposed to spend the rest of his life hiding and covering his tracks? Plus if Miko sees Belkar, Belkar would be unable to hide from Miko.

[Green Bean]

So is Belkar supposed to spend the rest of his life hiding and covering his tracks? Plus if Miko sees Belkar, Belkar would be unable to hide from Miko.

Or until Miko fails enough checks. You make a check every mile, and if Miko fails, it delays her by an hour. She still has to sleep, so it won't be long before she starts taking penalties for a cold trail. Even if she has enough ranks (she needs a wisdom score of 20 to track Belkar over the mountainous terrain around Azure City, and even then she has to roll a 20), the penalties would add up very quickly. It'd take a week, tops.

[Regneva]

Do you remember the schmucks who seriously believed that he was female?? That was TRULY worse...

[shylocxs]

Thank the Dark Ones Belkar is CE. Otherwise I'd have to start worrying about my own alignment! And I might have to start eating cheese! And protecting kittens! That would be horrible!

[Green Bean]

Do you remember the schmucks who seriously believed that he was female?? That was TRULY worse...

I dunno. Belkar has such feminine eyes... :smallamused:

[Cywar]

I will prove Belkars Alignment now
Chaotic is trivial... this will be left as an exercise

It remains to be shown that Belkar is evil

Using a variation of Einsteins famous proof
(women = evil)

Belkar costs time and money (at least for the Order, this seems true...)
Belkar = time*money
time is money
time = money
follows
Belkar = money²
money is the root of all evil
money = sqr(evil)
therefore
Belkar = sqr(evil)² = evil

QED

[Lamech]

Or until Miko fails enough checks. You make a check every mile, and if Miko fails, it delays her by an hour. She still has to sleep, so it won't be long before she starts taking penalties for a cold trail. Even if she has enough ranks (she needs a wisdom score of 20 to track Belkar over the mountainous terrain around Azure City, and even then she has to roll a 20), the penalties would add up very quickly. It'd take a week, tops. Unless Miko gets a location from a diviner, perhaps the sameone who told Miko that the Order of the Stick destroyed the gate. Miko would get lucky eventually. Also Belkar probably didn't think everything through. His train of thought could have been much closer to the lines of "Miko tracked me down, once she can do it again" Plus, if he really thought things through about the tracking, he would call a dire bat animal companion and fly away.

[Green Bean]

Unless Miko gets a location from a diviner, perhaps the sameone who told Miko that the Order of the Stick destroyed the gate. Miko would get lucky eventually. Also Belkar probably didn't think everything through. His train of thought could have been much closer to the lines of "Miko tracked me down, once she can do it again" Plus, if he really thought things through about the tracking, he would call a dire bat animal companion and fly away.

But that doesn't make much sense either. If she's going to track him down no matter what, then why would he attack her on terrain which she's familiar with while she's surrounded by a city full of allies, instead of leaving, then attacking her when she follows?

[NikkTheTrick]

Unless Miko gets a location from a diviner, perhaps the sameone who told Miko that the Order of the Stick destroyed the gate. Miko would get lucky eventually. Also Belkar probably didn't think everything through. His train of thought could have been much closer to the lines of "Miko tracked me down, once she can do it again" Plus, if he really thought things through about the tracking, he would call a dire bat animal companion and fly away.
It was already brought up before: if we involve a diviner, Miko does not matter. She can easily be substituted with a squad of Paladins.

[Lizard Lord]

I think the “why did Belkar challenge Miko” debate is heading in the wrong direction. People are saying why Belkar would want to kill Miko, but he didn't. He wanted to cause here to fall. Becoming a fallen paladin wouldn't take away the track feat or her points in survival.

[Lamech]

But that doesn't make much sense either. If she's going to track him down no matter what, then why would he attack her on terrain which she's familiar with while she's surrounded by a city full of allies, instead of leaving, then attacking her when she follows? Its much easier to hide in say a warehouse. Also there isn't enough room to use windstrider easily, so if Belkar is wearing light armor he is faster than Miko in her armor. Third Miko wasn't using those allies was she. Finally Belkar did have a chance to kill Miko, he won.


It was already brought up before: if we involve a diviner, Miko does not matter. She can easily be substituted with a squad of Paladins.
Err... no a diviner could find Belkar and use a sending to tell a squad of Paladins where Belkar is, but unless they get really lucky they will have to move some, and Belkar will have left. Then they would need a paladin too track.
Also Miko did have the help of a diviner (203), and Azure City still decided on using a paladin with track.
Finally a squad will increase the chance of being detected first by Belkar. At which point Belkar can hide and leave.

Edit:

I think the “why did Belkar challenge Miko” debate is heading in the wrong direction. People are saying why Belkar would want to kill Miko, but he didn't. He wanted to cause here to fall. Becoming a fallen paladin wouldn't take away the track feat or her points in survival.
I think I already answered that.


See 281 Belkar says "Now up so I can- Huh. Well, crap. Now THAT'S not going to be any fun, is it?" From that I assumed that Belkar's original plan was to kill Miko, but after knocking Miko out, Belkat decided that making Miko lose her powers was funner and worse for Miko. Of course, trying to make Miko lose her status as a paladin was a chaotic evil act, and if he stayed behind for that purpose alone then, yes calling Miko out to the duel was a chotic evil act.

[The Unlucky One]

Look, people who says that he's not CE because he doesn't kill everything don't know the difference between CE with 4 int and Ce with a normal intelligence.

Orc are the stupid type of CE, they kill everything until adventurers kill them.

Belkar is the intelligent type of CE because he knows that if he kills all he wants, he dies.

[Yeril]

If belkar is anything other than chaotic evil he is very very borderline chaotic neutral with evil tendancies.

my reasoning for this?

so that if Miko is ever ressurected, they can do the joke..

:miko: "Aha! DETECT EVIL!"
*Not-evil*
:miko: "Not.. evil?? what?? how?!"
:belkar: "Chaotic Neutral bitch"

[Tal9922]

It's mostly people who feel that it's wrong to like a character who's evil, therefore they claim Belkar's just an anti-hero, like Wolverine or Punisher. Then they make up convoluted explanations as to why selling someone into slavery or harvesting kidneys is really "good".

I'm reminded of Homer Simpson

Seriously, i keep hearing people referring to it, but can someone please post a link to the strip where he sells a women into slavery?

[factotum]

Seriously, i keep hearing people referring to it, but can someone please post a link to the strip where he sells a women into slavery?

Strip 171, although he's only talking about selling Samantha into slavery--he doesn't actually do it. (The implication is that he's done it before, though).

[Porthos]

If belkar is anything other than chaotic evil he is very very borderline chaotic neutral with evil tendancies.

my reasoning for this?

so that if Miko is ever ressurected, they can do the joke..

:miko: "Aha! DETECT EVIL!"
*Not-evil*
:miko: "Not.. evil?? what?? how?!"
:belkar: "Chaotic Neutral bitch"

:belkar: *STAB*

:belkar: That's another kitten that won't be bothering anyone anymore.
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What?!? You think I forgot about my warning I gave earlier in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3107347&postcount=11)? :smallamused:

[David Argall]

Strip 171, although he's only talking about selling Samantha into slavery--he doesn't actually do it. (The implication is that he's done it before, though).

He is advocating, not merely talking. And he may be taking the role of corrupter here as well. In any case, we can take the thought for the deed here.

However, we might note that selling her into slavery might be deemed another quasi-good [only quasi-evil?] deed on Belkar's part. The alternatives are hardly appealing either. Killing is clearly undesirable.
Roy decides to just leave them tied up, which is adequate from his immediate interest since he will get too much of a head start for them to likely catch him. But from a larger moral view, this doesn't work well. Either she would die from animal or elements, or she gets loose and starts trying to enslave or kill people [as she tried with Miko]. So from a social view, this just causes more pain to innocents.
Roy rejects Elan's idea of prison on the grounds that she had broken no law. Factually, this is incorrect. If there are enough victims to support a band of bandits, there is a government that is annoyed with the bandits and would punish them if it could get hold of them. The idea they are outside the jurisdiction of the government is an idea rejected by all governments. You may not be within practical reach, but governments will try and convict you for crimes [their definition] done while in no country, in a country that deems it legal, or even in a country that deems it mandatory.
However, for our purposes, what is the real moral differences between slavery and prison? Those we can identify seem to be on the side of slavery, but for the most part, we have the same situation, the slave/prisoner is ordered around and has few if any rights. Indeed, the general prison situation is so boring that prisoners are eager for situations that would amount to slave labor.
So when we come down to it, slavery is likely the best/least bad moral solution to the situation.

[Morty]

He is advocating, not merely talking. And he may be taking the role of corrupter here as well. In any case, we can take the thought for the deed here.

However, we might note that selling her into slavery might be deemed another quasi-good [only quasi-evil?] deed on Belkar's part. The alternatives are hardly appealing either. Killing is clearly undesirable.
Roy decides to just leave them tied up, which is adequate from his immediate interest since he will get too much of a head start for them to likely catch him. But from a larger moral view, this doesn't work well. Either she would die from animal or elements, or she gets loose and starts trying to enslave or kill people [as she tried with Miko]. So from a social view, this just causes more pain to innocents.
Roy rejects Elan's idea of prison on the grounds that she had broken no law. Factually, this is incorrect. If there are enough victims to support a band of bandits, there is a government that is annoyed with the bandits and would punish them if it could get hold of them. The idea they are outside the jurisdiction of the government is an idea rejected by all governments. You may not be within practical reach, but governments will try and convict you for crimes [their definition] done while in no country, in a country that deems it legal, or even in a country that deems it mandatory.
However, for our purposes, what is the real moral differences between slavery and prison? Those we can identify seem to be on the side of slavery, but for the most part, we have the same situation, the slave/prisoner is ordered around and has few if any rights. Indeed, the general prison situation is so boring that prisoners are eager for situations that would amount to slave labor.
So when we come down to it, slavery is likely the best/least bad moral solution to the situation.

Those are good points, but in Belkar's case they're meaningless. He just wanted to have cash for selling her. It's ambigous situation, but Belkar's inent removes any ambiguity.

[Porthos]

Those are good points, but in Belkar's case they're meaningless. He just wanted to have cash for selling her.

And, besides, the DM in question (i.e. Rich) has delcared selling Samantha into Slavery to be an Evil Act. Also, the fact that what usually happens to a female slave and what happens to a male slave should not be overloooked when it comes to regarding the differences between prison and slavery.

Finally, one of the few books that WotC put out that talks about slavery (Book of Exalted Deeds) has declared that selling someone into slavery is an evil act, regardless if it is a standard feature of an otherwise good society.

I realize that the BoED is hardly the end all and be all of the matter for a lot of people (myself included) but it is an interesting data point to add to the equation. :smallsmile:

[Lamech]

Umm.. Yeah, trying to sell Samantha into slavery was evil. Besides I doubt Belkar would have informed any would be purchaser that Samantha was powerful sorceress. She would have escaped probably killing a lot of people in the process. She might have even had a shot at finding "refuge" in a good aligned country.

[sPaRK]

:belkar: *STAB*

:belkar: That's another kitten that won't be bothering anyone anymore.
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What?!? You think I forgot about my warning I gave earlier in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3107347&postcount=11)? :smallamused:

If you went up to belkar and told him that kittens spread disease and by killing them is actually clensing the world...
he would probably stab you.

Ergo Chaotic Evil.

[Alex Warlorn]

Belkar is the Xykon of the good guys side.
A death machine that needs to be kept on a tight lease.

[Hectonkhyres]

CE, definitely. TE revolves around doing horrible, horrible things because they benifit you in some sense. Belkar does such things because he enjoys them and will go to pains to satisfy his passion for slaughter.

But, really, there is nothing wrong with CE. The alignment is championed by great and noble beings who stand alone against worlds. A king of the world, the axis mundi in their own minds, even without a single servant or minion. He is CE and I love him for it.

[Messenger]

To be fair, the argument for him not being CE usually involves his WIS score, and cites that one gag where Owl's Wisdom let him heal Elan. I have yet to see someone stupid enough to argue that non-buffed Belkar isn't, at the very least, evil.

But I think everyone can agree that, at the very least, his behavior and mannerisms suggest CE.
I agree- it's that "He'd be Good if he was Wiser" that allows people that small hole through which to argue that he's not Evil.

But have no doubt- he's CE. You forget: Belkar does not naturally have a high Wis score. When he became Good from Owl's Wisdom, his Wis was magically (artificially) augmented.

But I do disagree, Gundato- they don't suggest. They show that he is indeed CE, and Belkar is just to, um, "honest" to be pretending.

Never forget: he's a mass murderer in the making (since he plans bloody carnage on his own village, IIRC), if he's not already there.

Rich has been clear: he's CE. He'd be good if he had more understanding and compassion from having higher Wis- but he doesn't. That "rule" stated by The Giant is actually very clear and exact, so while his Wis is that of a lemming's, he's CE and will need that lead plate versus any suspicious LG Paladins he meets.