Character Challenge : Let's beat Demon Lord Graz'zt in a sword duel

[Unoriginal]

Hypothetical:

The Demon Lord Graz'zt desires acquiring an certain artifact for one of his scheme. Or maybe just because his demonic mind is obsessing on it for now. However, the artifact is locked into a vault built from the body of a dead god of sword fighting, and it cannot be opened or breached unless one proves their worth as a sword master against a mortal, summoned by the vault, in a duel that follows the rules of the vault. Confident he can beat any mortal even with the restrictions, Graz'zt agrees.


The rules of the Vault's Duel:

-The combat will take place in a 120ft diameter dome with a solid surface, which will be impossible to get out of for the duration of the duel. The ground is plane, the area is entirely in Bright Light. It is empty aside form the combatants and their equipment. The walls are smooth.

-The combatants start on the center of the dome, at 20ft of each other.

-Any damage or other effects inflicted to the opponent (or their equipment) must be inflicted through a melee attack or the Attack action.

-The combatants must use swords (although non-exclusively). The type does not matter.

-The combatants are allowed one magic sword (or two if they are dual-wielding), attuned or not, one mundane armor, one mundane shield, and no other equipment. They are free to use less if they wish so (Graz'zt selected his sword, Wave of Sorrow, and nothing else).

-Help or interference from any being with a statblock outside of the combatants is forbidden. Divine magic is allowed, including the Channel Divinity powers, as long as it doesn't break other rules, but Divine Intervention isn't.

-Summoning or creating more equipment or matter is forbidden.

-The combatants cannot avoid fighting each other for more than 54 seconds (aka 9 rounds).

-A combatant win if their opponent has 0 HP, either dead or unconscious.

-Breaking the rules results in instant disqualification. Your opponent being disqualified does not constitute a victory.

-The rules may be subjected to changes if a loophole is discovered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you create a PC capable of defeating Graz'zt in those circumstances?

All the officially published 5e material is authorized (so no UA). Stats use the 27 pts-point-buy or the standard array, HP is max at level 1 and average afterward. No Boon or Charms. The Action options from the DMG are allowed.

[Tiadoppler]

Do you know where I could find Graz'zt's stat block?

How about a Kensei(Longsword) monk who tries to stunlock?

[Blackbando]

IIRC Graz'zt's statblock is in Out of the Abyss.

[Unoriginal]

Do you know where I could find Graz'zt's stat block?

Try googling "Graz'zt statblock 5e". It's in the book Out of the Abyss

[Quoz]

Don't have the demons stats available, but this is my first thought:
Bugbear conquest paladin. Use any number of ways to frighten (wrathful smite may be best in this situation, as if he fails the initial save he has disad and no proficiency on any future check to escape). Now he is stuck with speed zero and you have reach. Once you have fear lock, smite away to hearts content.

Monk(any, but Kensai is most flavorful). With full ki points, flurry and spam stunning strike until you get stun lock. Splash in Battlemaster for disarm and other maneuvers to get his fancy sword away. First round is 4 attacks and 8 saves, any one of which could make the fight go very poorly for our poor demon

[Naanomi]

Between legendary resistances and insane spell save DCs, you’d have to be very lucky to even get a round in if he is playing to win

[Tiadoppler]

Try googling "Graz'zt statblock 5e". It's in the book Out of the Abyss

Got it. I was having trouble telling the difference between the "real" one and all the various homebrews out there.


With +12 CON save, monk-locking will be difficult.


Presumably, Graz'zt has the same limit as the player, and cannot apply status effects except by melee attacks. Maybe a heavy hitting Sorcadin? Greater Invisibility + at-will short range teleporting + 3 counterspells = ouch. Action economy is going to kill the player quickly.


PC turn (BigG counterspells any low level spells)
BigG legendary action
BigG turn


It looks like BigG has reach 10' and vastly superior mobility. A basic strategy for him would be teleporting to the far side of the room, waiting for PC to waste a turn moving/readying an action, then teleport back to 10' away. BigG could attack the player every turn, PC could only attack BigG every other turn.

[Lord8Ball]

http://chisaipete.github.io/bestiary/creatures/grazzt

[Unoriginal]

http://chisaipete.github.io/bestiary/creatures/grazzt

Not sure if this link is allowed here. Would have posted it otherwise.



Between legendary resistances and insane spell save DCs, you’d have to be very lucky to even get a round in if he is playing to win

Why? He has to attack with his sword.



Presumably, Graz'zt has the same limit as the player, and cannot apply status effects except by melee attacks.

Yes, the rules apply to everyone.




It looks like BigG has reach 10' and vastly superior mobility. A basic strategy for him would be teleporting to the far side of the room, waiting for PC to waste a turn moving/readying an action, then teleport back to 10' away. BigG could attack the player every turn, PC could only attack BigG every other turn.

Teleporting uses his action, though.

[Tiadoppler]

How about some bizarre multiclass?

Open Hand Monk/Divination Wizard?
Burn through Legendary Resistance as fast as possible, then Quivering Palm + Portent for an auto-fail?



Dex based Battlemaster Fighter/Kensai Monk/Divination Wizard?

Use Portent to store a couple useful d20 rolls.
Use Monk stuff to burn through Legendary Resistance.
Use Disarming Attack + Portent to disarm him
Use some interesting thing to destroy/teleport away BigG's Sword. The combatants may not be able to leave, but an inanimate object might be able to be removed from the battlefield/trapped in stone/turned invisible/sent to another plane/destroyed outright



A winged tiefling warlock/monk with a pact weapon and Tavern Brawler. They throw their pact sword as an improvised weapon from ceiling level, then recreate it on their next turn. Over and over again. If BigG tries to throw his own sword back, they catch it.



Teleporting uses his action, though.

Teleport in with Legendary action. Attack during turn. Or vice versa. BigG can spend half of his time on the very far side of the room.

[CantigThimble]

So, as far as I can see he has no attacks other than his greatsword. Take that away and he's left making unarmed strike attacks and a fighter can outpace him. He also has relatively poor strength saves, so disarming him is a really good option. However, legendary saves. With 20 str level 20 battlemaster the save is DC19, Graz'zt has a 60% chance to fail and we need him to fail 4 to take his sword away. Assuming perfect knowledge on his part, he won't use legendary saves on anything other than disarms. As soon as he's disarmed, use action surge to grab the sword.

Although, that brings up another concern. He has mind control spam for days, is there any way to get rid of the sword so not even our character could give it back to him? With DC23 crown of madness every turn we need to plan on spending half the fight mind controlled.

Come to think of it, nothing stops him from doing exactly this to us. Crown of Madness: give me your sword, GG.

Does this mean we need to be eldritch knight or bladelock to avoid this?

Edit: OH, if he's unable to use crown of madness because it isn't a melee weapon attack then this works flawlessly. Now it's just a question of maximizing the odds of getting through the disarming strike.

[Sigreid]

Seems to me this is completely within the zealot barbarian's favored wheelhouse.

[CantigThimble]

Aaracokra Battlemaster 15/Eagle Barbarian 3/Diviner 2

Str: 15 (20
Dex: 11 (+2 Racial) (13
Con: 15 (16)
Int: 13
Wis: 9 (+1 racial) (10)
Cha: 8

5 ASIs
Martial Adept
Mobile
+2 Str
+2 Str
+1 Str +1 Con

HP: 177
Full Plate
Best magic greatsword allowed

Disarming strike
Spells don't matter

We have 7 disarm attempts, plus two portents. So basically 4/9 of those rolls rolls need to be 12 or lower and we win. We take catastrophic damage from the first few rounds of wave of sorrow damage but after that he's dead in the water. We move fast enough that even if he teleports clear across the arena we can reach him and attack him that turn.

We're taking close to 19-20 damage per swing during rage (acid damage isn't mitigated and he hits us 80% of the time), so in the first three rounds (we need to save action surge to pick up the sword) while we're disarming it's possible that we die if he uses his legendary actions exclusively for more swings, but the odds are in our favor.

[Naanomi]

What happens if someone breaks the rules? Does the opponent win automatically?

And for those planning on disarming him, the assumption is he can’t take his weapon back because he lacks an explicit ability to disarm you (or take your carried weapon)?

[No brains]

I think going into a rules-heavy fight with a paragon of Chaotic Evil is what's called a Trap. This is one of those War Games where the only winning move is not to play, especially with this line:


-The rules may be subjected to changes if a loophole is discovered.
That is frustratingly open-ended and seems like a major detriment to the fun of cutting this sword-ian knot.

Who is enforcing these rules? What are the penalties for cheating? With what seems like such a stacked deck, I feel like my best bet is to figure out a way to make Grazzt disqualify himself. At least then I'd feel safe about cheating as much as I expect Graz'zt to.

BUT... if all these rules are put under the 'DM we trusts says so; if it would break the rules, it doesn't happen' umbrella, I'd still like to know explicitly what the victory/ failure conditions are. Does one of us have to yield? Is this to the death? Maybe one of the rules should be changed; make it so that the loser of this bout is anyone who is incapacitated, or otherwise fails to take aggressive action for that 1 minute.

I'm sorry if I'm being a pest with this angle, but rules and Demon Princes go together like peanut butter and mustard gas. I feel like I could have a better time if my DM challenged me to a game of: 'Who can stomp hardest on this landmine?' Always expect a Demon Prince to play unfair, even when it's impossible.

As for a useful suggestion: I believe one can combine Riposte with Disarming Strike to get extra disarm chances if they are willing to burn more dice.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind, guys, that the Demon Lord still have access to the standard combat options likes Grapple and Shove.

Also, his teleportation allows him to reach you anywhere in the room.



What happens if someone breaks the rules? Does the opponent win automatically?

No, but the person who breaks the rules automatically lose. Which doesn't count as "being defeated".

So Graz'zt can't just manipulate someone into breaking the rules to get to the artifact. He needs to defeat his opponent.

[CantigThimble]

What happens if someone breaks the rules? Does the opponent win automatically?

And for those planning on disarming him, the assumption is he can’t take his weapon back because he lacks an explicit ability to disarm you (or take your carried weapon)?

Well, yes. In the same way I assume I need the disarming strike ability to take away his weapon in the first place and can't just do it as a pure barbarian.

[Dudewithknives]

Enough levels of Rogue to get reliable talent, max str, expertise in athletics, barbarian enough for second attack.

Swashbuckler 14
barbarian battlerager 6

ASI x 5

+2 str x 2
Alert
+2 dex


Magic weapon of a +3 shortsword and spiked armor

Grapple checks are not saves so he can't legendary save them.
With all of that you should win init.
Move up, attack arction grapple and disarm, he can't possibly beat your athletics check, even on a 20.
Interact with an object to pick up his weapon. It is not possibly for him to beat your athletics check to try and disarm you back. Note you are holding his weapon in one hand, not wielding it, so you can keep the grapple.

Bonus action spiked armor attack.

His only option is to teleport out, and he can only do that 3 times, and can not get his weapon back so his damage is garbage.

Battlerager 6 gives you 4 THP very round you use reckless attack, he will be pinging you for 3 damage a round.

Now take out your shortsword, happy shaking while holding his weapon in 1 hand and taunting him that he can't get it back.

[Unoriginal]

That is frustratingly open-ended and seems like a major detriment to the fun of cutting this sword-ian knot.

This is not a "cut the knot"/"find the loopholes to go against the spirit of the duel" thread, it's a "beat Graz'z't in a duel" thread.




Who is enforcing these rules?

The vault.

What are the penalties for cheating?[/QUOTE]

Instant loss.



With what seems like such a stacked deck, I feel like my best bet is to figure out a way to make Grazzt disqualify himself. At least then I'd feel safe about cheating as much as I expect Graz'zt to.

[...]

I'm sorry if I'm being a pest with this angle, but rules and Demon Princes go together like peanut butter and mustard gas. I feel like I could have a better time if my DM challenged me to a game of: 'Who can stomp hardest on this landmine?' Always expect a Demon Prince to play unfair, even when it's impossible.

Graz'zt won't be able to open the vault if he cheats, and he's not an idiot.



I'd still like to know explicitly what the victory/ failure conditions are. Does one of us have to yield? Is this to the death?

Fair enough. It's "to 0 HP, be it death or unconsciousness".

I'll edit the OP.

[Angelalex242]

I'd think you'd want a Paladin packing a Holy Avenger and go to town on him with all the nova smitings you can manage. Definitely abuse your capstone. Maybe Devotion Paladin so the permanent Pro Good and Evil gives him disadvantage on all his moves? Then break out your capstone and hit him with all you've got.

[CantigThimble]

Enough levels of Rogue to get reliable talent, max str, expertise in athletics, barbarian enough for second attack.

Swashbuckler 14
barbarian battlerager 6

ASI x 5

+2 str x 2
Alert
+2 dex


Magic weapon of a +3 shortsword and spiked armor

Grapple checks are not saves so he can't legendary save them.
With all of that you should win init.
Move up, attack arction grapple and disarm, he can't possibly beat your athletics check, even on a 20.
Interact with an object to pick up his weapon. It is not possibly for him to beat your athletics check to try and disarm you back. Note you are holding his weapon in one hand, not wielding it, so you can keep the grapple.

Bonus action spiked armor attack.

His only option is to teleport out, and he can only do that 3 times, and can not get his weapon back so his damage is garbage.

Battlerager 6 gives you 4 THP very round you use reckless attack, he will be pinging you for 3 damage a round.

Now take out your shortsword, happy shaking while holding his weapon in 1 hand and taunting him that he can't get it back.

How are you disarming him exactly?

Also, he can teleport as an action and regains his legendary actions at the start of his turn. He never runs out.

[Naanomi]

If disarmed early enough that he has a serious chance at losing, he should use a legendary action to get a ‘last attack’ in and cast sanctuary... force the other person to DQ themselves so he can get another try at the next opponant

[Tiadoppler]

No, but the person who breaks the rules automatically lose. Which doesn't count as "being defeated".

So Graz'zt can't just manipulate someone into breaking the rules to get to the artifact. He needs to defeat his opponent.

So, Graz'zt needs to defeat the PC, but the PC can defeat Graz'zt or encourage him to disqualify himself?

What if someone with Water Breathing and a swim speed casts Wish to fill the room with 25000gp of opaque colored water/orange juice? Truesight doesn't let BigG see through opaque objects. You just have to get close enough to attack him every minute or so, until he suffocates.


Edit:

If disarmed early enough that he has a serious chance at losing, he should use a legendary action to get a ‘last attack’ in and cast sanctuary... force the other person to DQ themselves so he can get another try at the next opponant

How does Sanctuary disqualify the opponent? Wouldn't that just be a loss for him? The opponent doesn't need to win, and the opponent might be able to make the WIS save required anyway.

[Dudewithknives]

How are you disarming him exactly?

Also, he can teleport as an action and regains his legendary actions at the start of his turn. He never runs out.

Disarm is a simple Athletics check to win such as shove or grapple in the DMG.

Okay but it won't really hurt anything it just means I'm going to have to fight him normally without having room pendant phone they still not going to have a weapon and fighting unarmed so I'll just stab him to death.

His multiattack and legendary action attack both specified he has to use his sword so he can't use those.

He gets one attack every turn that does 7 damage if he hits I can refill for temporary hit points every turn just by using Reckless attack which means that deal to that even with his invisibility Reckless attack means I still hit for sneak attack thanks to swashbuckler

[Unoriginal]

Well, yes. In the same way I assume I need the disarming strike ability to take away his weapon in the first place and can't just do it as a pure barbarian.


DISARM
A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.

The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller.

DMG p. 271.

Which by the way means that Graz'zt has +13 with advantages to checks to disarm you.

[CantigThimble]

DMG p. 271.

Which by the way means that Graz'zt has +13 with advantages to checks to disarm you.

That's in an optional rules section, I assume optional rules are not in effect unless otherwise stated for forum discussion.

[Naanomi]

If we allow the disarm maneuver, there is no way he won’t be disarming you and laughing with his immunity to non-magic attacks

Why isn’t he casting Glibness and using his overwhelming charisma to Persuade the opponant to throw the fight? Seems like his style

Honestly I’m confused why he agreed to all this to begin with. Yes, he is full of hubris... but literally his defining trait is a hatred for limitations of any kind

[Unoriginal]

That's in an optional rules section, I assume optional rules are not in effect unless otherwise stated for forum discussion.

Fair. I'll add that to the OP.


So, Graz'zt needs to defeat the PC, but the PC can defeat Graz'zt or encourage him to disqualify himself?

You don't win if he disqualifies himself.



What if someone with Water Breathing and a swim speed casts Wish to fill the room with 25000gp of opaque colored water/orange juice? Truesight doesn't let BigG see through opaque objects. You just have to get close enough to attack him every minute or so, until he suffocates.

Sorry, it wasn't clear, but the "summon or create equipment is forbidden" was meant as a "you don't get to make appear anything more". Thanks for pointing that out, I edited the OP.


The opponent doesn't need to win

You kinda do if you don't want him to try again.

[Naanomi]

You kinda do if you don't want him to try again.
That is what I meant by using Sanctuary (and/or Greater Invisibility). If he is going to lose, it is better for him to force a ‘draw’ so he can try again

[Unoriginal]

Why isn’t he casting Glibness and using his overwhelming charisma to Persuade the opponant to throw the fight? Seems like his style


Because:


.

-Any damage or other effects inflicted to the opponent (or their equipment) must be inflicted through a melee attack or the Attack action.

-The combatants cannot avoid fighting each other for more than 54 seconds (aka 9 rounds).

-A combatant win if their opponent has 0 HP, either dead or unconscious.


It takes more than 1 minute to convince a Demon Lord's enemy to knowingly let themselves be at the mercy of a Demon Lord, no mater how high the charisma.




.

Honestly I’m confused why he agreed to all this to begin with. Yes, he is full of hubris... but literally his defining trait is a hatred for limitations of any kind

Because he really want this artifact and there is no other way to get it. He'll probably be pissed as Abyss, but he also likes to win despite the rules.


That is what I meant by using Sanctuary (and/or Greater Invisibility). If he is going to lose, it is better for him to force a ‘draw’ so he can try again

Not sure how you want him to use those to force a "draw", unless you mean by disqualifying himself.

But even in case of DQ, nothing says the vault can't summon the same mortal at full ressources next time Graz'zt tries.

[Sigreid]

How about a champion fighter with shield master and a vorpal blade. Try to bonus action knock him to the ground and then action surge 8 attacks. My understanding is Graz'zt needs his head as much as anyone else.

[Unoriginal]

-Rogue, lvl 20

-Use feat to have scimitar proficiency

-Get a vorpal scimitar

-First round: attack with your scimitar, use your Stroke of Luck capacity to get a 20.

Anything that needs their head dies of a Stroke.

[Naanomi]

It takes more than 1 minute to convince a Demon Lord's enemy to knowingly let themselves be at the mercy of a Demon Lord, no mater how high the charisma.
Hi I’m Graz’zt, you may have heard of me. As we speak my legion of demons is going to capture your family and everyone you have ever loved even the slightest bit, as well as let’s say... 100 toddlers from young home world... they will be brought to my world to find unspeakable and eternal agony for eternity. Or, you can throw this fight, and we can bargain. You have one minute.



Not sure how you want him to use those to force a "draw", unless you mean by disqualifying himself.

But even in case of DQ, nothing says the vault can't summon the same mortal at full ressources next time Graz'zt tries.
Graz’zt starts to lose. He waits to get attacked again. Then responds with a legendary action to attack. Note he attacked *after* his opponant. He then casts sanctuary and waits 9 rounds. His opponant is disqualified. Graz’zt gets another chance at winning when he was losing before, and can keep that same trick up until the dice are in his favor

But that aside, with Disarm on the table, no way does Graz’zt not just disarm his foe and then go to town while being immune to most (if not all) of what his opponant can do without a magic weapon to hurt him

[CantigThimble]

But that aside, with Disarm on the table, no way does Graz’zt not just disarm his foe and then go to town while being immune to most (if not all) of what his opponant can do without a magic weapon to hurt him

Well, Graz't has only +6 to athletics, PCs can easily have +17. Even with advantage for large size, disarm wars favors a specialized PC by a longshot.

[Naanomi]

Well, Graz't has only +6 to athletics, PCs can easily have +17. Even with advantage for large size, disarm wars favors a specialized PC by a longshot.
True, but there is such an overwhelming advantage if he succeeds it might be worth it; and against many foes not specialized in disarming (presumably the vorpal rogue above?) it has a lot of potential still

[CantigThimble]

True, but there is such an overwhelming advantage if he succeeds it might be worth it; and against many foes not specialized in disarming (presumably the vorpal rogue above?) it has a lot of potential still

Even then, they can just do the same back to him and get the same overwhelming advantage. Including disarm rules favors the players more than it does graz'zt

[Naanomi]

Even then, they can just do the same back to him and get the same overwhelming advantage. Including disarm rules favors the players more than it does graz'zt
Graz’zt is immune to nonmagical attacks, the advantage of him facing an opponant without a weapon is invulnerablity

[CantigThimble]

Graz’zt is immune to nonmagical attacks, the advantage of him facing an opponant without a weapon is invulnerablity

True, but if disarm rules are not used he will beat pretty much any PC in a slugfest due to the insanely high damage his sword does. Disarming him is necessary if you plan on letting him attack you for more than one or two turns. He doesn't need to disarm his enemies to kill them, they need to disarm him to not die.

[Daphne]

How about a champion fighter with shield master and a vorpal blade. Try to bonus action knock him to the ground and then action surge 8 attacks. My understanding is Graz'zt needs his head as much as anyone else.


-Rogue, lvl 20

-Use feat to have scimitar proficiency

-Get a vorpal scimitar

-First round: attack with your scimitar, use your Stroke of Luck capacity to get a 20.

Anything that needs their head dies of a Stroke.

Creatures with legendary actions are immune to the effect of vorpal swords.

[Naanomi]

-Rogue, lvl 20

-Use feat to have scimitar proficiency

-Get a vorpal scimitar

-First round: attack with your scimitar, use your Stroke of Luck capacity to get a 20.

Anything that needs their head dies of a Stroke.
Stroke of Luck won’t turn an attack into a 20, only ability checks

Still; a samurai with Elven Accuracy and Luck with a vorpal Blade may be a good candidate to win this; fishing for twenties

EDIT oh yeah, except that he has legendary actions anyways. Good call Daphne

[Vorpalchicken]

A Vorpal Sword won't cut off a head but it will still do a boatload of damage.

If Grazz't can't use charm effects, then a Bear Totem barbarian should beat him.

If Grazz't can use charm, then a Berserker barbarian, (maybe black dragonborn?) would have a good shot.

Maybe do barbarian 16/ champion 4, since 20 AC isn't that tough to hit and big crits would be fun

[Mongobear]

Two builds spring to mind immediately.

Black Dragonborn Vengeance Paladin with a Holy Avenger Greatsword. Max Strength and pick up GWM, use Channel Divinity for Advantage and crit fish for Smites. Between auras and Holy Avenger, you should be fine versus any shennanigans.

Half Orc BearBarian. Pick up Tough and GWM, MAX Con and Strength, bring a +3 Greatsword or a Defender. Rage and just pray the dice God's give you more damage than him. He deals half damage to you for your Infinite Rages, and you can't be dropped to 0 until you fail a Con save, but you can use HalfOrc version to protect from it when the DC is really high. And with Athletics and likely a 24 Str with Advantage fom Rage, there is no chance to Disarm, Grapple, Shove or otherwise mess with your actions. I honestly think this is the path to take if his spells and other save or suck effects are off the table, just a pure melee.

[Naanomi]

He probably has improved invisibility going most of the fight, which won’t help

[Daphne]

Two builds spring to mind immediately.

Black Dragonborn Vengeance Paladin with a Holy Avenger Greatsword. Max Strength and pick up GWM, use Channel Divinity for Advantage and crit fish for Smites. Between auras and Holy Avenger, you should be fine versus any shennanigans.

I would argue Devotion is better for the always on Protection from Evil and Good spell

[Kane0]

Somebody mentioned Zealot barb, has anyone done the math on it?

[Tiadoppler]

Hi I’m Graz’zt, you may have heard of me. As we speak my legion of demons is going to capture your family and everyone you have ever loved even the slightest bit, as well as let’s say... 100 toddlers from young home world... they will be brought to my world to find unspeakable and eternal agony for eternity. Or, you can throw this fight, and we can bargain. You have one minute.


Heh. If he said that, it wouldn't require Glibness imo. Even "I have your friends. I have your family. I have no quarrel with you. Stand aside."



Graz’zt starts to lose. He waits to get attacked again. Then responds with a legendary action to attack. Note he attacked *after* his opponant. He then casts sanctuary and waits 9 rounds. His opponant is disqualified.


I still don't understand this combo. Why doesn't the PC simply try attacking during those 9 rounds? Is there a different version/variation of Sanctuary? The version in my PHB says "any creature who targets the warded creature... must make a Wisdom saving throw". If you make your save, you can attack.

[Angelalex242]

I would argue Devotion is better for the always on Protection from Evil and Good spell

Level 20 Devotion Paladin was my build. Pop the Capstone and go to town on him with smites.

[Naanomi]

I still don't understand this combo. Why doesn't the PC simply try attacking during those 9 rounds? Is there a different version/variation of Sanctuary? The version in my PHB says "any creature who targets the warded creature... must make a Wisdom saving throw". If you make your save, you can attack.
His save DC is 23, most PCs listed wouldn’t reliably make that in 9 rounds, especially not if he was teleporting around to avoid you in the meantime

[Angelalex242]

His save DC is 23, most PCs listed wouldn’t reliably make that in 9 rounds, especially not if he was teleporting around to avoid you in the meantime

The paladin would. Hi, Divine Grace...

[Naanomi]

The paladin would. Hi, Divine Grace...
Yeah, but they tend to be so much more vulnerable to the social threats (let me win and I’ll spare these babies!)

[Tiadoppler]

If you're playing a monk for lots of stunning and quivering palm, you've got good WIS, and proficiency. +9 to +11 WIS saves will hit 23 DC fairly often, especially when you factor in multi-attacking.

I guess a fighter is pretty much out of luck though :P

[Sigreid]

Creatures with legendary actions are immune to the effect of vorpal swords.

Not having had one I didn't notice that. That's disappointing.

[Vorpalchicken]

I think 20-fishing with a vorpal sword is still worthwhile. It's still a +3 sword. And according to Sage Advice it's an additional 12d8 damage on a crit.

I still like the black dragon berserker idea. You are resisting all his damage and he is not resisting yours. With reactions and bonus actions you are making four attacks per round and he isn't all that hard to hit.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, but they tend to be so much more vulnerable to the social threats (let me win and I’ll spare these babies!)

I do not negotiate with fiends! Lay on, that I may smite the crap out of thee!

[Mongobear]

I would argue Devotion is better for the always on Protection from Evil and Good spell

I debate that, and you're probably right, since the Vengeance Channel Divinity likely is pointless if you have another source of Advantage, while Devotions would stack with it and make GWM very powerful.

The only problem with Paladin is that it's just a race to out damage each other, and if he is allowed to TP and keep us out of range for a few rounds here and there, we might not be able to Nova as efficiently.

The problem with this fight is whether he is allowed to jump around with Teleport, or if he has to move with regular means. If he can only stand his ground and melee, I like the Paladins chances more.

I'm, this fight should have a mechanic where every round, the arena shrinks 5ft inwards until it's a 30ft dome, so that movement shennanigans and kiting aren't autowins.

EDIT: New idea/build. Black Dragonborn Champion Fighter 18/Paladin 2.TWFing with 2 Holy Avenger Longsword, or Scimitar/Shortsword if you dot want the Feat and would rather max Con, Plate Mail, TWFing and Defense styles. Save Smites for crits, on an 18-20, and if Grazzt retreats for a round or two to recover or cast something, you can heal via Survivor, LoH, and Second Wind. 20 AC from Plate, Defense, and Dual Wielder feat. Resistance to Acid mitigates enough Acid damage to keep you going, 204 hp if my math is right for an 18 Con, 224 if you drop the feat for lower damage weapons.

4 attacks a round with BA offhand, 7 with Action Surge. Each one does 1d8+2d10+8 and crits on an 18-20, with a few Smites to throw out if you do. Each smite deals 3d8, or 6d8 on a crit. A single crit does 2d8+4d10+6d8+8, 65 if my math is correct.

[Uzgul]

Somebody mentioned Zealot barb, has anyone done the math on it?
I did and came up with build, that will win, nearly all of the time. Without needing him to fail or save or disarming him.
So this build will win fighting honorable even if Grazz't doesn't.

Scourge Aasimar
Zealot Barbarian 16 / Rogue 2 / Monk 2
Point Buy:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 13+1
Int 9
Wis 14
Cha 8+2

ASI: +2 Str, +2 Str, +2 Str, Mobile
Weapon of Choice: Blackrazor (or a +3 Greatsword, if we fear Blackrazor might try to troll us)
Expertise: Perception and Athletics

Now we have a Speed of 60ft and bonus action dash. So we can get to from any point to any point in the Dome.
We also have a passive perception of 24. Graz'zt Stealth bonus ist just +2. So he can't use the invisibility to hide from us.
We are also immune to charm and frighten due to Blackrazor, which might come in handy.
Blackrazor could also cast Haste on us, if it wants to. But I will assume it doesn't want to. So the calculations will work out the same for a +3 Greatsword.

We only have 14 AC. So he will hit us on anything but a 1.
We also just have 185 HP, but that's not a problem. We can't die as long als we rage. If we win before rage ends, we can use Aasimar Racial Healing to stabilise.
Our attack bonus is +14 (6+5+3). So we hit in 15/20 cases.

Strategy:
Allways use Reckless Attack. Our AC is bad enough to let him hit allways anyway. So it does matter, that he gets advantage.
He will hit us nearly all of the time. Initiative if a 50% Chance for us to win. So I will just assume bad luck and that Grazzt wins it.
1. Round: He hit's us for 68 Damage. Down to 117 HP
We start rage and start our Aasimar Racial Ability Radiant Consumption as an action an move up to him.
Deal 10 radiant damage to both of us (we have resistance to radiant, so we only take 5). We: 115 HP, Graz'zt: 368 HP
Graz'zt attacks with his legendery action, dealing 24 damage: We: 91 HP
2. Round: Assuming Graz'zt knows all out abilities and stats, he knows that he can't draw by hiding with his invisibility. But he will cast greater invisibility anyways to get take our advantage away, as he only needs to survive our 1min of rage, during which we can't die. His most effective way of fighting us now, is to attack us each turn. I will stop tracking our HP, as it will be 0 soon anyways.
We attack for a average of
15/20*(7 slashing + 3 enchantment bonus + 5 str + 4 rage bonus))*2 + (1-(5/20)^2)*(13.5 divine fury +20 Radiant Consuption) = 59.9 damage
Radiant Consuption deals an Extra 10 damage at the end of out turn.
Graz'zt: 298.1 HP
3. Round: Graz'zt attacks, we attack
Graz'zt: 228.2 HP
4. Round: Graz'zt: 158.3 HP
5. Round: Graz'zt: 88.4 HP
6. Round: Graz'zt: 18.5 HP
7. Round: Graz'zt: -51.4 HP and beaten
8. Round: We wait for Radiant Consuption to run out. (or attack again, if we got unlucky)
9. Round: We wait for Radiant Consuption to run out. (or attack again, if we got super unlucky. On average. He would be at -191.2 HP)
10. Round: Radiant Consuption will end after this turn. We heal ourselfs for 20 HP with healing hands. Take another 5 from Radiant Consuption.
We end our Rage with 15 HP and are stable.


TL,DR:
This build crushes Grazz't without disarming him and leaves him no possibility to draw without breaking the rules.

Edit: Changed Holy Avenger to Blackrazor or a +3 Greatsword, as this build lacks a level of paladin.

Edit2: I completly missed, that he can cast sactionary. If he is allowed to cast it, he can just wait till rage runs out and kill this build.
But it forces a Wisdom save / effects us in way that stops us from attacking and isn't a melee attack or part of the attack action. So I'd argue, that sanctuary is forbidden under "Any damage or other effects inflicted to the opponent (or their equipment) must be inflicted through a melee attack or the Attack action."

[Quoxis]

Stolen from the „total party thrill“ podcast:
Fighter 2
Sorcerer (any subclass works, i’d favor shadow for the chance to fall to 1hp instead of 0) 3
Grave cleric 2
Paladin 2
Hexblade Bladelock 11

Tactic: Quickened „hold monster“ as a bonus action, if it succeeds move on to use grave cleric‘s channel divinity „path to the grave“ (opponent has vulnerability to all damage of one single attack), then action surge to get your only attack per round going (which keys off of cha and has advantage because the opponent is paralyzed) and smite with both your paladin and warlock smite features/invocations for a mix of weapon, radiant and force damage to ALL of which poor paralyzed Demon Lordy is vulnerable. One attack should suffice. (1d12, reroll on a 1 or 2+5d8 divine smite+5d8 eldritch smite; all of which is rolled with advantage and the opponent is vulnerable, doubling all damage)

The bad thing: you really need the dude to fail his save. You can still use your action to use path to the grave, but you‘d better use the dodge action if your bonus action hold monster fails. Fail too often and you won’t be able to smite as hard anymore (you only have 3 slots of 5th level), plus your sorcery points will run out.

[Angelalex242]

I did and came up with build, that will win, nearly all of the time. Without needing him to fail or save or disarming him.
So this build will win fighting honorable even if Grazz't doesn't.

Scourge Aasimar
Zealot Barbarian 16 / Rogue 2 / Monk 2
Point Buy:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 13+1
Int 9
Wis 14
Cha 8+2

ASI: +2 Str, +2 Str, +2 Str, Mobile
Weapon of Choice: Holy Avenger Greatsword
Expertise: Perception and Athletics

Now we have a Speed of 60ft and bonus action dash. So we can get to from any point to any point in the Dome.
We also have a passive perception of 24. Graz'zt Stealth bonus ist just +2. So he can't use the invisibility to hide from us.

We only have 14 AC. So he will hit us on anything but a 1.
We also just have 185 HP, but that's not a problem. We can't die as long als we rage. If we win before rage ends, we can use Aasimar Racial Healing to stabilise.
Our attack bonus is +14 (6+5+3). So we hit in 15/20 cases.

Strategy:
Allways use Reckless Attack. Our AC is bad enough to let him hit allways anyway. So it does matter, that he gets advantage.
He will hit us nearly all of the time. Initiative if a 50% Chance for us to win. So I will just assume bad luck and that Grazzt wins it.
1. Round: He hit's us for 68 Damage. Down to 117 HP
We start rage and start our Aasimar Racial Ability Radiant Consumption as an action an move up to him.
Deal 10 radiant damage to both of us (we have resistance to radiant, so we only take 5). We: 115 HP, Graz'zt: 368 HP
Graz'zt attacks with his legendery action, dealing 24 damage: We: 91 HP
2. Round: Assuming Graz'zt knows all out abilities and stats, he knows that he can't draw by hiding with his invisibility. But he will cast greater invisibility anyways to get take our advantage away, as he only needs to survive our 1min of rage, during which we can't die. His most effective way of fighting us now, is to attack us each turn. I will stop tracking our HP, as it will be 0 soon anyways.
We attack for a average of
15/20*(7 slashing + 9 radiant holy avenger + 3 enchantment bonus + 5 str + 4 rage bonus))*2 + (1-(5/20)^2)*(13.5 divine fury +20 Radiant Consuption) = 73.4 damage
Radiant Consuption deals an Extra 10 damage at the end of out turn.
Graz'zt: 284.6 HP
3. Round: Graz'zt attacks, we attack
Graz'zt: 201.2 HP
4. Round: Graz'zt: 117.8 HP
5. Round: Graz'zt: 34.4 HP
6. Round: Graz'zt: -49 HP and beaten
7. Round: We wait for Radiant Consuption to run out. (or attack again, if we got unlucky)
8. Round: We wait for Radiant Consuption to run out. (or attack again, if we got unlucky)
9. Round: We wait for Radiant Consuption to run out. (or attack again, if we got super unlucky. On average. We would be at -299.2 HP)
10. Round: Radiant Consuption will end after this turn. We heal ourselfs for 20 HP with healing hands. Take another 5 from Radiant Consuption.
We end our Rage with 15 HP and are stable.


TL,DR:
This build crushes Grazz't without disarming him and leaves him no possibility to draw without breaking the rules.

Problem: Can't use a Holy Avenger without at least one Paladin Level.

[polymphus]

This is one of the only circumstances where a Berzerker Barbarian is perfect. Immune to Charm (this is absolutely critical against Graz'zt) and you don't need to care about exhaustion since it's just a 1-off fight.

Race: Vhuman
Points-buy array: Str15 Dex14 Con15 Int8 Wis10 Cha8
Final Stats: Str24 Dex14 Con24 Int8 Wis10 Cha8
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Tough
Equipment: Holy Avenger Greatsword

That's 325hp of BEEF. While Berserk, he gets 3 attacks a turn guaranteed, probably 4. Each attack is +16 to hit, that deals 2d6 magical slashing + 2d10 radiant +10 OR +11 to hit dealing 2d6 + 2d10 +20. Without even popping GWM, he's smashing out a reliable 8d6 + 8d10 + 40 per turn. He's immune to Graz'zt's scariest abilities and takes half damage from Wail of Sorrow's main damage component.

[Angelalex242]

This is one of the only circumstances where a Berzerker Barbarian is perfect. Immune to Charm (this is absolutely critical against Graz'zt) and you don't need to care about exhaustion since it's just a 1-off fight.

Race: Vhuman
Points-buy array: Str15 Dex14 Con15 Int8 Wis10 Cha8
Final Stats: Str24 Dex14 Con24 Int8 Wis10 Cha8
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Tough
Equipment: Holy Avenger Greatsword

That's 325hp of BEEF. While Berserk, he gets 3 attacks a turn guaranteed, probably 4. Each attack is +16 to hit, that deals 2d6 magical slashing + 2d10 radiant +10 OR +11 to hit dealing 2d6 + 2d10 +20. Without even popping GWM, he's smashing out a reliable 8d6 + 8d10 + 40 per turn. He's immune to Graz'zt's scariest abilities and takes half damage from Wail of Sorrow's main damage component.

People continue to forget only Paladins can use the Holy Avenger. Barbarian 20 doesn't have a paladin level.

Holy Avenger
Weapon (any sword), legendary (requires attunement by a paladin)
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. When you hit a fiend or an undead with it, that creature takes an extra 2d10 radiant damage. While you hold the drawn sword, it creates an aura in a 10-foot radius around you. You and all creatures friendly to you in the aura have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. If you have 17 or more levels in the paladin class, the radius of the aura increases to 30 feet.

[Vaz]

Wild elf Bladesinger 18/Rogue 2, Mobile, (Wood Elf Magic) . Spells Known: Booming Blade, Longstrider, Feather Fall, Invulnerability, See Invisibility

Cast Invulnerability on self R1. Graazt cannot deal damage to us, Counterspell Us, Nor Dispel. If Graazt cast's Sanctuary, we have Wis Prof. If Graazt Greater Invis, we can see with see Invis.

Graazt cannot fly, so he falls after teleport sky high. However, with Wild Elf, Longstrider, Bladesong, and Mobile, we have 130ft move speed with a Bonus action dash. No escape.

Magic Sword as required, (Dawnbringer?) or Booming Blade to deal thunder damage to bypass resist/immunity.

[Uzgul]

Problem: Can't use a Holy Avenger without at least one Paladin Level.
I missed that part. So let's take Blackrazor instead. It makes you immune to charm and frighten.
That lower's our damage by 13,5 per round, assuming we can't convince Blackrazor to cast haste on us.
That means Grazz't dies just one round later.

If we don't want to take any risks with Blackrazor's personality, a normal +3 Greatsword would do the job, too.

[Naanomi]

I do not negotiate with fiends! Lay on, that I may smite the crap out of thee!
“Fair enough. I’ll be sure to send their screams into your Dreams, along with those of all of your living relatives and the head of your order and his children as well. To remind you of the noble choice you so gallantly made. Pain you could, of course, immediately end with a simple gesture, but of course your righteousness is more important than the suffering of innocents; all true Paladins hold their own sense of honor above protecting others, right?

Don’t worry, I’ll be sure the tales of your ‘impeccable honor’ are on the lips on every Bard on your homeplane and beyond before you even return, so all will be sure of how important the cause that necessitated the sacrifice of their children truly was. You still have 50 seconds to change your mind”

He has literally inhuman insight and persuasion, he can find the buttons that work; any version of these fights should be filled with such temptations and threats (it wouldn’t be a fight with Graz’zt otherwise)

[Sigreid]

“Fair enough. I’ll be sure to send their screams into your Dreams, along with those of all of your living relatives and the head of your order and his children as well. To remind you of the noble choice you so gallantly made. Pain you could, of course, immediately end with a simple gesture, but of course your righteousness is more important than the suffering of innocents; all true Paladins hold their own sense of honor above protecting others, right?

Don’t worry, I’ll be sure the tales of your ‘impeccable honor’ are on the lips on every Bard on your homeplane and beyond before you even return, so all will be sure of how important the cause that necessitated the sacrifice of their children truly was. You still have 50 seconds to change your mind”

He has literally inhuman insight and persuasion, he can find the buttons that work; any version of these fights should be filled with such temptations and threats (it wouldn’t be a fight with Graz’zt otherwise)

"Given that you are a demon lord known through out the great wheel for your cunning, cruelty and treachery, only the greatest of fools would believe a bargain with you would lead to less misery."

[Naanomi]

"Given that you are a demon lord known through out the great wheel for your cunning, cruelty and treachery, only the greatest of fools would believe a bargain with you would lead to less misery."
“I’ll be sure the children know of the great unshakeable conviction of their would-be savior as he tossed them to my eternal care... I’ll be sure they cry out your name in your sleep for the rest of your days, thanking you for your choice to save the planes at their insignificant expense. As will the Bards singing the songs. ‘Sir Sigreid the prudent Paladin, no mass of innocent babes shall be spared in his unwavering and uncompromising conviction and number-crunching’. 40 seconds”

[Vaz]

“I’ll be sure the children know of the great unshakeable conviction of their would-be savior as he tossed them to my eternal care... I’ll be sure they cry out your name in your sleep for the rest of your days, thanking you for your choice to save the planes at their insignificant expense. As will the Bards singing the songs. ‘Sir Sigreid the prudent Paladin, no mass of innocent babes shall be spared in his unwavering and uncompromising conviction and number-crunching’. 40 seconds”

As an unaligned observer, keep talking, you both lose if you don't fight? Why is Graazt even contemplatibg talking?

[Naanomi]

As an unaligned observer, keep talking, you both lose if you don't fight? Why is Graazt even contemplatibg talking?
Well, one: I’m sure they are fighting as well; and two: because Graz’zt is much more of a talker/manipulator than a fighter. It’s his main schtick, no way he wouldn’t be trying. Three, that is why he put a time limit on the offer (to prevent disqualification)

[Angelalex242]

(The Paladin actually stands on solid ground here...the Book of Exalted Deeds in 3.5 states saving lives actually is NOT worth a hit to personal integrity!)

"Your evil deeds are on you. My integrity is on me."

*continues smiting the everloving *CENSORED* out of Graz'zt!*

Page 9: Book of Exalted Deeds
I can save 1000 lives by sacrificing my purity!

This view is ultimately misguided. This treat the purity of someone's soul like a commodity. The personal sacrifice is no such thing, it is a shift of the balance of good and evil in evil's favor.

Good ends sometimes require evil means. But those serious about being good cannot resort to them, no matter how great the need.

Purity 1, Pragmatism 0

(Also, Graz'zt is aware of the same rules, stated above. That's why he's making such arguments in the first place.)

[Naanomi]

The book of exalted deeds makes some unusual claims about alignment stuff that likely doesn’t hold up under 5e’s definitions... that barely held up under 3.X’s definitions... but in any case, Graz’zt doesn’t have to convince the universe that stepping aside and letting him claim the sword is worth preventing eternal suffering of children, he just has to convince the Paladin.

PCs are of course uniquely immune to 30+ persuasion checks somehow, but it would be a factor to consider in a ‘real’ encounter

[Angelalex242]

It's a moot point anyway. If Graz'zt gets the sword, what would he do?

"Thanks for the sword. Now I'm going to torture all the children to death anyway! Seeya, loser. Protip: I'm CHAOTIC evil you dumbass!"

[Unoriginal]

...the Book of Exalted Deeds in 3.5 states


The Book of Exalted Deeds has absolutely 0 relevance to 5e.




PCs are of course uniquely immune to 30+ persuasion checks somehow, but it would be a factor to consider in a ‘real’ encounter

Persuasion isn't brainwashing. And while Graz'zt could manipulate someone into giving up, it wouldn't let him win, so he'd have to try again.

It's a form of ironic hell, if he keeps doing that.

[CantigThimble]

Negotiating with a good fighter might work, MAYBE, but a Paladin? Not a chance. Rule 0 of being a paladin is 'Don't make deals with demons'. Just don't. Ever. Not even once. In fact, you probably shouldn't even be listening to what the demon is saying, just smite it.

[Angelalex242]

Point is, at my table, holding on to your integrity yields better results than caving.

The Paladin doesn't cave:

Graz'zt: Fine, I'm gonna go take those kids from your home village now...

Graz'zt gets there, only to find 3 Solars standing there with very righteous looking grins on their faces. "Sir Luthien's integrity shall not be punished."

Graz'zt gets pwned, and banished to his layer of the abyss for 1001 years from the Solars' combined wishing power.

Paladin caves:

Graz'zt gets the sword, no solars show up, the kids get captured and tortured anyway, and the threat about people cursing Sir Luthien's name comes to pass exactly like Graz'zt said it would. Paladin basically has disadvantage on all charisma based checks forever now.

[CantigThimble]

When negotiating with demons and devils remember these rules:
1. The demon is older than you.
2. The demon is smarter than you.
3. The demon is more malevolent than you can imagine.
4. The demon isn't bound by its word and won't tell you the whole truth.
5. If you ever think that you've found an exception to rule 4, re-read rules 1-3.

Seriously, no matter what tragedy you think you're preventing by making a deal, the only reason the demon would actually be willing to follow through would be to facilitate something worse.

[Naanomi]

Grazzt wouldn’t show up on his own, he’d send cultists and lesser demons to do his bidding; no way he puts himself at personal risk. Though if a mere three Solars could banish a demon lord for thousands of years at a time, Good would have already ‘won’ the conflict with Evil (even though it is generally implied that Evil would infact stomp Good if they weren’t too busy fighting each other instead)

[Mongobear]

When negotiating with demons and devils remember these rules:
1. The demon is older than you.
2. The demon is smarter than you.
3. The demon is more malevolent than you can imagine.
4. The demon isn't bound by its word and won't tell you the whole truth.
5. If you ever think that you've found an exception to rule 4, re-read rules 1-3.

Seriously, no matter what tragedy you think you're preventing by making a deal, the only reason the demon would actually be willing to follow through would be to facilitate something worse.

Demons certainly have no reason to abide by an agreement, and likely will attempt to exploit any/all loopholes possible.

Devil's would actually follow an agreement or contract to the best of their ability, but will attempt to either find a loophole or negotiate terms vague enough that they can gain an advantage or corrupt the mortal making the deal. Their Lawful nature make dealing with Devil's slightly more reliable if you can word your agreement in a way to eliminate loopholes.

[Angelalex242]

Grazzt wouldn’t show up on his own, he’d send cultists and lesser demons to do his bidding; no way he puts himself at personal risk. Though if a mere three Solars could banish a demon lord for thousands of years at a time, Good would have already ‘won’ the conflict with Evil (even though it is generally implied that Evil would infact stomp Good if they weren’t too busy fighting each other instead)

Solars are the only celestial with legendary actions. 3 of them is going too much for a demon lord. I mean, I'm not sure if Graz'zt has 5e stats somewhere, but I'm sure the Solars can take him 3 on 1.

[Vaz]

Help or interference from any being with a statblock outside of the combatants is forbidden. Divine magic is allowed, including the Channel Divinity powers, as long as it doesn't break other rules, but Divine Intervention isn't.

Moot point people. Put a cork in it and find a different table to play at if you're not interested in playing the game of who points their stick pointier.

[Naanomi]

Solars are the only celestial with legendary actions. 3 of them is going too much for a demon lord. I mean, I'm not sure if Graz'zt has 5e stats somewhere, but I'm sure the Solars can take him 3 on 1.
This whole thread is reliant on his stats... but anyways...

They could probably trounce him; but that would just send him back home bitter and with all his resources on hand to do something about it. Nothing in their arsenal could stop that, either mechanically or conceptually

[Personification]

What about Moon Druid 20 vHuman with maxed mentals and Dual Wielder, Weapon Master (For Longsword), and Defensive Duelist armed with two Vorpal Longswords and WildShaped into a water elemental?

[Beelzebubba]

Look at Graz'zt in AD&D:


Once per round, Graz'zt can use any one of the following abilities, at will: alter reality (for someone else), chaos, continual darkness, dispel magic, duo-dimension, emotion, magic missile (5 missiles peruse), mirror image, polymorph self, read languages, read magic, telekinese 15,000 gp weight, teleport, vanish, and water breathing.

Twice per day, Graz'zt can use polymorph others. Once per day, he can use disintegrate, polymorph any object, and veil.

Once per week he can use trap the soul.

Except as noted, all abilities are equal to 20th level spell use.

That wouldn't be a cake walk for anybody. Those twice a day and up spells were serious business.

Not to even mention his psionics...

[Unoriginal]

Look at Graz'zt in AD&D:



That wouldn't be a cake walk for anybody. Those twice a day and up spells were serious business.

Not to even mention his psionics...

Except the whole point of this thread is to find someone who can beat Graz'zt in a sword fight were he can't use that kind of powers.

If there is no rule against him using those, 5e Graz'zt would obliterate his opponent, too.

[ProseBeforeHos]

This isn't even hard, you just take a lvl 20 totem barb (cuts the acid damage in half also) with some sick anti-fiend magical weapon.

With barb resistances and a magical weapon of your own to cut through his own resistances you should be conceivably capable of racing him down.

Edit: I tell a lie, let's go berserker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-9X3ooFvo) with the tielfling feat that gives you resistance to acid damage. Get three attacks a round instead of 2.

[Roshino]

I think keeping it simple should work. 20th level v. human barbarian should have 24 str and 24 con, dump INT, CHA and WIS and with standard array you will have 14 dex for a total of unarmored 19 AC. 20 if you spend your last ASI bumping up your dex. I'm too lazy to consider GWM for now.


Without going too deep into magic weaponry, a +3 greatsword should grant you a +16 accuracy (2d6+14 damage) for a double attack on totem for the acid resistance or for a quad attack with frenzy (retaliation). Use of reckless doesn't matter because both get advantage and both have the same AC.

About HP: a 20th level barbarian will have 20d12+140 and if you take the tough feat it goes up for another 40. That's a ridiculous 310 on average. Rage (frenzy or totem) should put his durability actually over Graz'zt's. If you go totem, you should be able to take around 18 successful Wave of Sorrow attacks. On the other hand, a frenzied barbarian should be able to resist around 12 successful attacks but with a damage output considerably higher and with retaliation strikes as a extra countermeasure to the teleport shenanigans that he IS going to try to abuse (shouldn't work too well because he loses his legendary 3rd attack if he does so and can only use it at the end of the barb's round). Grazz't, on the other hand, regardless of the primal path we're taking, should be able to resist 18 attacks from either barbarian. Against the totem, that's 9 turns of straight-up skull bashing or 4 1/2 against the frenzied. I'm not considering AC because both have 20 AC, even though the barbarian should get an edge on this area because of his superior accuracy (+16 vs +13).

Totem:
Endurance: survives 18 strikes; 6 rounds of successful attacks
Offensive: wins after 9 rounds of successful attacks

Frenzy:
Endurance: survives 12 strikes; 4 rounds of successful attacks
Offensive: wins after 4 1/2 rounds of successful attacks

-

Conclusion:

If muh quick maffs are correct, a frenzied primal champion should be able to pull a ~40/60. That's before considering the relentless rage trait, which should increase both barbarian's endurance by at least 1 strike (+13 CON save DC 10 + 5 for each time it's used). I'm going to asspull that on a standard day a barbarian should be able to resist around 3 extra deathblows therefore getting one extra round of endurance, which should push the odds in favor of our Conan frenzy barbarian. Teleportation shenanigans can be annoying but the fact that the demon can only use it on the end of the barb's turn with a lower movespeed than the barbarian should mean it's a horrible idea to do so.

--

If you want an easy win, a barb3/paladin5/sorc12 will WRECK Graz'zt.

edit: fix'd accuracy

[Beelzebubba]

Except the whole point of this thread is to find someone who can beat Graz'zt in a sword fight were he can't use that kind of powers.

If there is no rule against him using those, 5e Graz'zt would obliterate his opponent, too.

Oh, sorry, I skimmed the OP too quickly.

[damascoplay]

Don't have the demons stats available, but this is my first thought:
Bugbear conquest paladin. Use any number of ways to frighten (wrathful smite may be best in this situation, as if he fails the initial save he has disad and no proficiency on any future check to escape). Now he is stuck with speed zero and you have reach. Once you have fear lock, smite away to hearts content.

Monk(any, but Kensai is most flavorful). With full ki points, flurry and spam stunning strike until you get stun lock. Splash in Battlemaster for disarm and other maneuvers to get his fancy sword away. First round is 4 attacks and 8 saves, any one of which could make the fight go very poorly for our poor demon

Pretty sure Graz'zt has a pretty good reach since he's considered Large, not to mention he can teleport with his legendary action, and is immune to frightened. And his saves are pretty high. So no doubt he will just succeed most of the time. And in case he fails, legendary resistance 3 per day.

[damascoplay]

Neutral good half elf paladin (Vegeance) 18/ Fighter 2.

Two handed Moonblade -> +3 Vorpal/Defender properties

Vow of Enmity -> 4 attacks with advantage. Crits on a 19 or 20

I'd feel sorry for Graz'zt and his ass.

I can almost hear Kenshiro saying "Omae wa mou shindeiru" in the distance.

[Dualswinger]

Tried looking, didn't find, what is both combatants immediate situation before the duel?

Is Graz'zt aware that someone might pop in at any moment? Is he just standing around picking his nose waiting for the hero to show up?

Is the hero suddenly teleported at a random point in the day? Do they have time to cast buffs ahead of the battle?

[Uzgul]

Frenzy:
Endurance: survives 12 strikes; 4 rounds of successful attacks
Offensive: wins after 4 1/2 rounds of successful attacks

-

Conclusion:

If muh quick maffs are correct, a frenzied primal champion should be able to pull a ~40/60. That's before considering the relentless rage trait, which should increase both barbarian's endurance by at least 1 strike (+13 CON save DC 10 + 5 for each time it's used). I'm going to asspull that on a standard day a barbarian should be able to resist around 3 extra deathblows therefore getting one extra round of endurance, which should push the odds in favor of our Conan frenzy barbarian. Teleportation shenanigans can be annoying but the fact that the demon can only use it on the end of the barb's turn with a lower movespeed than the barbarian should mean it's a horrible idea to do so.

The Frenzy wouldn't work because of Teleport shenanigans. As soon as the barb starts his frenzy, he could avoid him for 9 rounds with teleport. Rage is only a minute (10 rounds) long, so frenzy would work for only a single round. If the barbarian frenzies a second time, he can wait it out again. And then the barb would have half movement due to exhaustion. At that point he could be kited to death (Grazzt attacks, moves 40ft away, teleports back as legendary action before his turn. limiting you to one attack of opportunity per round, if you have reach).

You should also consider, that greater invisibility should still be allowed. Giving him advantage and canceling the Barbs advantage.


On that note: A Barbarian 20 with focus on dex and con, a defender sword and a shield can get 27 AC. Combine that with the Defensiv Duelist feat to have 33 AC against one attack, that would otherwise hit and you are pretty hard to hit, even with his +13 attack bonus.

That would bring his average damage down to 40.1 per round, if he uses his legendary action for an attack and has advantage due to invisibility.
With a Totem barbarian, that's just 20 damage per round.

[Unoriginal]

Tried looking, didn't find, what is both combatants immediate situation before the duel?

Is Graz'zt aware that someone might pop in at any moment? Is he just standing around picking his nose waiting for the hero to show up?

Is the hero suddenly teleported at a random point in the day? Do they have time to cast buffs ahead of the battle?

Both combatants appears in the starting position, the rules understood, and the combat start immediately. No one can cast ahead of the battle, but they're both at full ressources.

[OzDragon]

Edit: Already stated by another user.

[OzDragon]

What about Moon Druid 20 vHuman with maxed mentals and Dual Wielder, Weapon Master (For Longsword), and Defensive Duelist armed with two Vorpal Longswords and WildShaped into a water elemental?


Wild shaped into anything that can wield the weapons. As even when they lose their wild shape they can just use a bonus to reapply wild shape. Unlimited hit points. They can also heal themselves and cast spells while shaped.

Graz'zt loses this one.

[Naanomi]

When a master of manipulation with unfathomable personal resources, awesome magical abilities, and a defining trait of hating limitations agrees to blanket limitations that prevent manipulation, prevent use of his magical abilities, and deny access to any resources he frequently loses against opponents custom-designed to defeat him... who would have thought?

[Vaz]

When a master of manipulation with unfathomable personal resources, awesome magical abilities, and a defining trait of hating limitations agrees to blanket limitations that prevent manipulation, prevent use of his magical abilities, and deny access to any resources he frequently loses against opponents custom-designed to defeat him... who would have thought?

Oh bore off.

[Unoriginal]

When a master of manipulation with unfathomable personal resources, awesome magical abilities, and a defining trait of hating limitations agrees to blanket limitations that prevent manipulation, prevent use of his magical abilities, and deny access to any resources he frequently loses against opponents custom-designed to defeat him... who would have thought?

Yes, it's a "let's defeat Graz'zt" thread.

[Naanomi]

Yes, it's a "let's defeat Graz'zt" thread.
I fully understand the premise and the exercise, it just is a challenge that doesn’t play well to his strengths at all. It is more of a ‘let’s defeat Graz’zt blindfolded with one arm tied behind his back’

[Unoriginal]

I fully understand the premise and the exercise, it just is a challenge that doesn’t play well to his strengths at all. It is more of a ‘let’s defeat Graz’zt blindfolded with one arm tied behind his back’

Graz'zt's a mighty swordsman on his own right still, and I just wanted to see how good he was at it.

Absurd, maybe, but still. It's interesting to think about.

[Vorpalchicken]

The Frenzy wouldn't work because of Teleport shenanigans. As soon as the barb starts his frenzy, he could avoid him for 9 rounds with teleport. Rage is only a minute (10 rounds) long, so frenzy would work for only a single round. If the barbarian frenzies a second time, he can wait it out again. And then the barb would have half movement due to exhaustion. At that point he could be kited to death (Grazzt attacks, moves 40ft away, teleports back as legendary action before his turn. limiting you to one attack of opportunity per round, if you have reach).

A frenzy barbarian can dash with its action and then make a bonus action attack (unlike many other things in 5e that require an attack action to get a bonus action attack) so if Graazt is teleporting away with his action, the barbarian is getting a free attack every round- or two if Graazt uses his legendary action to attack.

[Envyus]

That's in an optional rules section, I assume optional rules are not in effect unless otherwise stated for forum discussion.

Then Disarming itself is optional.

[Envyus]

I feel like a lot of people are forgeting some of Graz'zt advantages in being able to buff himself. Namely with Greater Invisiblity which gives a big advantage in the fights.

Sactuary is also very useful in another way. Running out an opponents buffs.

[Specter]

Okay, I'll bite.

Feral Tiefling Eldritch Knight 16
ST8, DX20, CO16, IN14, WI12, CH8
AC: 20 (27 with Shield/Haste), HP148
ASIs: Infernal Fortitude, War Caster, +4DEX, Mobile, Resilient (WIS)
Weapon: +3 rapier
Relevant spells: Booming Blade, Shield, See Invisibility, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste

So you have a guy that resists poison, has a higher AC than Graz'zt for many rounds, the same number of attacks per round (or less but pulling good damage with Booming Blade), the ability to see invisibility and a WIS save to avoid Sanctuary. Should that do?

[Unoriginal]

Okay, I'll bite.

Feral Tiefling Eldritch Knight 16
ST8, DX20, CO16, IN14, WI12, CH8
AC: 20 (27 with Shield/Haste), HP148
ASIs: Infernal Fortitude, War Caster, +4DEX, Mobile, Resilient (WIS)
Weapon: +3 rapier
Relevant spells: Booming Blade, Shield, See Invisibility, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste

So you have a guy that resists poison, has a higher AC than Graz'zt for many rounds, the same number of attacks per round (or less but pulling good damage with Booming Blade), the ability to see invisibility and a WIS save to avoid Sanctuary. Should that do?

How is your combatant surviving all the rounds they use to buff themselves?

[Vaz]

How is your combatant surviving all the rounds they use to buff themselves?

I'm not sure where Poison Resist comes in, Wave of Sorrow deal acid Damage, but he only has 1 Buffneeded, and that is Haste. See Invis is used as necessary with an Action Surge I guess.
Counterspell and Dispel are unnecessary as they can't affect without an attack roll.

[Tubben]

Did not find the level for the char, but given it's max level : Level 20 Druid using 1 LS + Earth Elementar form.

Edit: Someone else said druid allready, should read all the posts before replying :)

[Specter]

How is your combatant surviving all the rounds they use to buff themselves?

Only Haste is a needed buff, and since it pays off later with extra attacks it's hardly wasted. Plus, Action Surge.


I'm not sure where Poison Resist comes in, Wave of Sorrow deal acid Damage, but he only has 1 Buffneeded, and that is Haste. See Invis is used as necessary with an Action Surge I guess.
Counterspell and Dispel are unnecessary as they can't affect without an attack roll.

Misread it. So I'll trade Infernal Fortitude for Tough, and use Absorb Elements if attacks get through.

Counterspell is not affecting the enemy directly in some cases (like if he casts Darkness).

[Naanomi]

I’d plan on him Counterspelling you as well then

[Vaz]

Only Haste is a needed buff, and since it pays off later with extra attacks it's hardly wasted. Plus, Action Surge.



Misread it. So I'll trade Infernal Fortitude for Tough, and use Absorb Elements if attacks get through.

Counterspell is not affecting the enemy directly in some cases (like if he casts Darkness).


You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of Casting a Spell. If the creature is Casting a Spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect.
As per 5e Counterspell rules. Counterspell is affecting an enemy, and doesn't use a melee attack, and is another effect. Darkness is an effect inflicted on an opponent and isn't dealt with an attack roll; ergo, both fail.

[Specter]

I’d plan on him Counterspelling you as well then

Yeah, the main reason to have counterspell is actually to counterspell his counterspell!

As for Darkness: he CAN cast it, because it doesn't deal damage or affect me directly.

[Vaz]

Yeah, the main reason to have counterspell is actually to counterspell his counterspell!

As for Darkness: he CAN cast it, because it doesn't deal damage or affect me directly.

You'll have to call for a ruling from Unoriginal in this aspect. It does affect you - unless you have Truesight or Devil's Sight. This is also backed up by Jeremy Crawford. It allows for some rather interesting interactions, admittedly, but Darkness affects you, even if it doesn't have to target you. Counterspell in particular is stated to interrupt the caster, rather than stopping the spell after it is cast. That's affect you.

[Unoriginal]

Both Darkness and Counterspell are effects you don't apply through an attack, so both fail.

[Easy_Lee]

"Hey, beat this OP boss but I'm not actually going to allow any strategy to beat him."

Really, dude?

Just grapple him and use an opposed strength check to take his weapon. A reasonably built grappler will win every time. If the DM doesn't allow it, the DM is power-tripping.

As for whether this strategy breaks your arbitrary rules or not, I don't care. I'm going to kill that NPC whether you like it or not.

[Specter]

Both Darkness and Counterspell are effects you don't apply through an attack, so both fail.

Quoting your op:
"-Any damage or other effects inflicted to the opponent (or their equipment) must be inflicted through a melee attack or the Attack action."

If he casts Darkness anywhere that doesn't include me in it, how is that harming me or my equipment?

[Unoriginal]

Quoting your op:
"-Any damage or other effects inflicted to the opponent (or their equipment) must be inflicted through a melee attack or the Attack action."

If he casts Darkness anywhere that doesn't include me in it, how is that harming me or my equipment?

It doesn't say "harming" it says "inflicted to". Sure he could technically waste his powers and turn and cast it somewhere that won't affect you, but if you walk in you're inflicted with the Blinded condition.

[Naanomi]

Greater Invisibility, Sanctuary, and Teleport are the only spells/abilities he can use besides just basic attack options (attack, shove, grapple, *disarm)

[Specter]

It doesn't say "harming" it says "inflicted to". Sure he could technically waste his powers and turn and cast it somewhere that won't affect you, but if you walk in you're inflicted with the Blinded condition.

Sounds fishy, but ok, even easier.

Greater Invisibility - See Invisibility, one hour. Done.
Sanctuary - the one that could cause trouble, because it has such a high DC and we only have a +6 on the WIS save, so we need a 17 or higher. But still, if he's wasting his action to cast this, it means Graz'zt is not attacking, and so there's not much going on for it.
Teleport - He can't run forever by the rules, he can't hide and he needs to be in melee to damage us. Whatever.

So the question is, can his increased range and damage beat our increased versatility and AC?

[Unoriginal]

Sounds fishy, but ok, even easier.

Greater Invisibility - See Invisibility, one hour. Done.
Sanctuary - the one that could cause trouble, because it has such a high DC and we only have a +6 on the WIS save, so we need a 17 or higher. But still, if he's wasting his action to cast this, it means Graz'zt is not attacking, and so there's not much going on for it.
Teleport - He can't run forever by the rules, he can't hide and he needs to be in melee to damage us. Whatever.

So the question is, can his increased range and damage beat our increased versatility and AC?

Well, you can't use Shield and Absorb Element in the same turn, so I'm not sure which one you want to apply as default.

[Specter]

Well, you can't use Shield and Absorb Element in the same turn, so I'm not sure which one you want to apply as default.

Even without Shield, we still have Haste to make our AC a 22.

If one attack hits regardless of Shield, then we should use AE, otgerwise Shield.

[Naanomi]

Against many opponents, teleport can keep the number of attacks against him down by a lot

[Unoriginal]

Even without Shield, we still have Haste to make our AC a 22.

If one attack hits regardless of Shield, then we should use AE, otgerwise Shield.

The caster doesn't get to know if the attack hits even with the +5 from the Shield, they just know if the attack would hit without it.

22 AC means the Demon Lord hits on a 9 or more, so that's 55% of the time, meaning he's hitting you around 6 times in 4 rounds.

How much hits/damages are you doing in 4 rounds?

[Easy_Lee]

Grab his weapons and wrench it away from him with a strength check. A sword bard with enhance ability (strength) cast on himself or a human barbarian with the Prodigy feat don't even need to be high level to win this check reliably. As others have said it isn't a saving throw.

This is the easiest way for a martial to beat any foe who relies on weapon attacks. You force the DM to either ask for an opposed strength check or come up with some bullcrap about why it's not possible. And if you force your DM to make up some bullcrap or create arbitrary rules, you've already won the game.

This has been posted already so I have no idea why this thread is still going.

[Naanomi]

That is probably why suck rules are optional to begin with... every smart combatant startingveith wrestling matches with PCs over weapons isn’t fitting classic fantasy combat aesthetics very well

Though how well you can disarm him and keep the weapon away from him is somewhat debatable... you can’t wield it except improvided right? It is a large sized weapon... and if you are just hanging onto it to prevent him from just grabbing it off the ground; that takes one or both of your hands to do so yes?

[Easy_Lee]

That is probably why suck rules are optional to begin with... every smart combatant startingveith wrestling matches with PCs over weapons isn’t fitting classic fantasy combat aesthetics very well

There are optional rules for dealing with disarm attempts because it comes up. But the reality of D&D is that if the player says he does something then the DM has to either come up with a ruling for it or say it's not possible. And what I'm saying to you is that if a player attempts something that's definitely possible and the DM comes up with a BS reason why it isn't possible, the player wins.

So, you're the hypothetical DM here. Hypothetically, if your player said he was going to grab the boss' weapon and had built his character to do so, what would you do? The player doesn't have to wield the weapon, he just has to put it safely into a bag of holding or similar. That's a free once-per-round object interaction, by the way.

[Specter]

The caster doesn't get to know if the attack hits even with the +5 from the Shield, they just know if the attack would hit without it.

22 AC means the Demon Lord hits on a 9 or more, so that's 55% of the time, meaning he's hitting you around 6 times in 4 rounds.

How much hits/damages are you doing in 4 rounds?

Yeah, with hidden rolls then Shield isn't nearly as fun. Luckily I haven't plyed with many DMs that do that.

[Naanomi]

I’d tell them not to try to build characters around specific optional game rules instead of RP focused concepts but... if they wanted to do so, and I had to make up rules for it on the fly... I’d probably require the opponant to be grappled first; and likely have some mechanic to risk harm in the process (a free opportunity attack?) that risks fouling the disarm attempt... attempting to grab large sized acid dripping bladed weapons from people’s hands shouldn’t really be easy or safe in my mind. Definetly not easier than a ‘battlemaster’ who has devoted resources to mastering the maneuver can do it

[Easy_Lee]

I’d tell them not to try to build characters around specific optional game rules instead of RP focused concepts but... if they wanted to do so, and I had to make up rules for it on the fly... I’d probably require the opponant to be grappled first; and likely have some mechanic to risk harm in the process (a free opportunity attack?) that risks fouling the disarm attempt... attempting to grab large sized acid dripping bladed weapons from people’s hands shouldn’t really be easy or safe in my mind. Definetly not easier than a ‘battlemaster’ who has devoted resources to mastering the maneuver can do it

Got it. So you'd impose made-up reasons to make it more difficult than it would actually be, insisting the player should have been a battlemaster (who couldn't disarm the boss anyway due to legendary resistance). Glad we've established that.

FYI, I guessed from the premise of the thread that there would be some of this. Pops up in every "how can X be done" thread where the OP clearly thinks it can't. Artificial rules made to ensure that a particular thing happens are not in the spirit of the game.

[gloryblaze]

Got it. So you'd impose made-up reasons to make it more difficult than it would actually be, insisting the player should have been a battlemaster (who couldn't disarm the boss anyway due to legendary resistance). Glad we've established that.

FYI, I guessed all of this from the premise of the thread. You asked the question "how can X be done" with the obvious preconceived idea that it was impossible. And you've imposed made-up rules both in the OP and in your replies since to try to ensure that your preconceived idea "wins." That's unrealistic and not at all in the spirit of the game. It reminds me of the repost that guy keeps making about the "ultimate villain" coffeelock.

Just a heads up.

This post makes it seem like you think Naanomi is the OP. She isn't.

[Easy_Lee]

This post makes it seem like you think Naanomi is the OP. She isn't.

Thanks, I did get confused. Edited my post.

[Unoriginal]

This post makes it seem like you think Naanomi is the OP. She isn't.

See, it's "pretty clear" that I made this thread because I believe it can't be done, and obviously I'm adding artificial rules to make sure it happens according to my preconceptions. Despite me proposing ideas on how it could be done (inaccurate at they may have turned out to be).

Obviously.

The rules hindering Graz'zt far more than his opponent must be due to my ineptitude.

[Naanomi]

More difficult than it should actually be? Just how easy or hard should it be to rip the giant sized acid dripping weapon from the hands of a giant sized demon who is likely stronger than you and almost certainly has more raw talent in its use; while he is actively swinging it at you? DC 10 Free Action then, it is rolling at all affront to the player?

And yes, for what it matters, in general I would make a freely available homerule or adjudicated choices harder or less effective than a choice someone spent (or could spend) a class ability to be able to do... like I would make a way to disguise casting less effective than Subtle Spell, and a way of quickly searching for hidden opponents in combat less effective than Eye for Detail

[Easy_Lee]

More difficult than it should actually be? Just how easy or hard should it be to rip the giant sized acid dripping weapon from the hands of a giant sized demon who is likely stronger than you and almost certainly had more raw talent in its use; while he is actively swinging it at you? DC 10 Free Action then, it is rolling at all affront to the player?

And yes, for what it matters, in general I would make a freely available homerule or adjudicated choices harder or less effective than a choice someone spent (or could spend) a class ability to be able to do... like I would make a way to disguise casting less effective than Subtle Spell, and a way of quickly searching for hidden opponents in combat less effective than Eye for Detail

To your first, opposed strength check if the player can get his hands on it, potentially eligible for grappling. What I'm telling you is that this is not only the most reasonable ruling, but also that there are a variety of ways players can reliably assure that they will win that contest.

If you want proof that this is a reasonable ruling, go to another forum and pose this question: two creatures grab hold of the same weapon, one tries to pull it away, how do I rule this? I think you won't be surprised in the least what people say. And it's going to make fights with weapon-wielding foes much easier if your players are clever - as it should. Players seldom do clever things. The last thing you want to do is discourage them.

To your second, you said that actions not covered by the rules are going to be harder to do that actions covered by the rules if the actions not covered by the rules replicate someone's ability. That's called DM metagaming. Your rulings aren't based on how difficult or hard the thing actually is. They're based on the fact that this is a game and you're pursuing some other goal in making the ruling.

[Naanomi]

Two people grabbing the same weapon is a lot different wording than disarming an active weapon user... no I don’t think looking to the larger system for guidance and consistency is ‘GM metagaming’... but I think we risk (further) derailing the thread of we persist in this.

Anyways, even assuming you can easily disarm him... then what? Your hands are full of his giant weapon, almost definetly too large for you to use... what is your plan now?

[Easy_Lee]

Two people grabbing the same weapon is a lot different wording than disarming an active weapon user... no I don’t think looking to the larger system for guidance and consistency is ‘GM metagaming’... but I think we risk (further) derailing the thread of we persist in this.

Anyways, even assuming you can easily disarm him... then what? Your hands are full of his giant weapon, almost definetly too large for you to use... what is your plan now?

Already been over that. Stick it in a bag of holding and you're done. Alternatively, be a barbarian with the tavern brawler feat and beat him to death with his own weapon. Once his damage die becomes 1 and he can't use his weapon for special actions, you've won the fight. Don't underestimate a crafty barbarian.

[OzDragon]

See, it's "pretty clear" that I made this thread because I believe it can't be done, and obviously I'm adding artificial rules to make sure it happens according to my preconceptions. Despite me proposing ideas on how it could be done (inaccurate at they may have turned out to be).

Obviously.

The rules hindering Graz'zt far more than his opponent must be due to my ineptitude.

You all seem to be forgetting a level 20 Druid with any +3 sword and wild shape into an elemental. It's been brought up in this thread. The druid wins.

Druid wild shapes into an earth elemental chooses to drop his sword. picks it up and earthglides. Graz'zt cant hit him. On his turn the druid pops up hits or misses then earth glides again. If Graz'zt does happen to do enough to drop wild shape the druid does it again. Rinse repeat Graz'zt loses.

[Unoriginal]

You all seem to be forgetting a level 20 Druid with any +3 sword and wild shape into an elemental. It's been brought up in this thread. The druid wins.

Druid wild shapes into an earth elemental chooses to drop his sword. picks it up and earthglides. Graz'zt cant hit him. On his turn the druid pops up hits or misses then earth glides again. If Graz'zt does happen to do enough to drop wild shape the druid does it again. Rinse repeat Graz'zt loses.

Seriously, was my sarcasm not obvious enough?


Also, while an interesting strategy, Earth Glide only works on unworked earth and stone.

[OzDragon]

Seriously, was my sarcasm not obvious enough?


Also, while an interesting strategy, Earth Glide only works on unworked earth and stone.

Sorry, sarcasm is hard to read sometimes.

You only said the ground was plain. I perhaps mistakenly assumed it was like many arena type environments that the floor was dirt.

[UnderwaterAir]

Paladin 2
Sorcerer 7
Warlock 11

Coffeelock with endless level 5 spell slots.
Hexblade, +10 damage rolls, PAM or dual wield.

With haste you can drop in 24d8 smite damage per turn if the attacks hit. This is on top of the weapon damage and +10 damage you get from Lifedrinker and Hexwarrior. If you get lucky you can finish him off in 2 turns of combat. But certainly 3-4 turns of combat is not out of the question and you can definitely do sufficient damage in 8 turns or so.

If possible, enter the fight hasted and Mirror Imaged.
Counterspell everything he does.
Misty Step and Shield as needed.
Attack and drop in upwards of x4 smites per turn if all 4 hits. Average damage is over 100 damage per turn assuming all 4 attacks hit. With a +3 weapon, 20 CHA, you'll do decently. Don't forget to curse him also so you get crits on 19-20.

Booming Blade and then quicken GFB if need be for even more damage.
Don't be afraid to stay at range and double EB + AB if you need to.

Victory isn't guaranteed but it's what I would give as the best possible chance. Magical heavy armor and all, of course. Hell, throw in an animated shield that you do prior to the battle also. :)

[Unoriginal]

Sorry, sarcasm is hard to read sometimes.

You only said the ground was plain. I perhaps mistakenly assumed it was like many arena type environments that the floor was dirt.

It's a sealed dome made in the corpse of a dead god. Might be considered stone, in a way, but not unworked.

Though tbf this strategy has issues even if the ground was dirt. Going in and out the ground would essentially reduce the speed of the Elemental to 10ft, and also make the Druid vulnerable to AoO, for starter. But maybe they could win, someone should do the calculations.



Coffeelock with endless level 5 spell slots.


Doesn't work.



But certainly 3-4 turns of combat is not out of the question and you can definitely do sufficient damage in 8 turns or so.

How much HP do you have with this build?




If possible, enter the fight hasted and Mirror Imaged.

Not possible.





Counterspell everything he does.

Not allowed.


Don't be afraid to stay at range and double EB + AB if you need to.

Against the rules.


Magical heavy armor and all, of course.

Against the rules.


Hell, throw in an animated shield that you do prior to the battle also. :)

Against the rules.

[Naanomi]

Already been over that. Stick it in a bag of holding and you're done. Alternatively, be a barbarian with the tavern brawler feat and beat him to death with his own weapon. Once his damage die becomes 1 and he can't use his weapon for special actions, you've won the fight. Don't underestimate a crafty barbarian.
Bag of holding isn’t on the approved item list.

Do you still consistently win with your two d4+7 improvised weapon compared to his three 7 damage unarmed attacks, with his improved invisibility in play? It seems likely you still could, but it would be nice to see the math.

[OzDragon]

It's a sealed dome made in the corpse of a dead god. Might be considered stone, in a way, but not unworked.

Though tbf this strategy has issues even if the ground was dirt. Going in and out the ground would essentially reduce the speed of the Elemental to 10ft, and also make the Druid vulnerable to AoO, for starter. But maybe they could win, someone should do the calculations.

Earth elemental speed while gliding is 30ft and eating one attack a round not a big deal. The biggest thing the druid has here is that he is an infinite ball of HP at 20th level. Unless Graz'zt can do enough damage to it in one round to kill the earth elemental for 126 damage and the druids (average HP with no con from 20 d8) 100 hp. The druid will outlast Graz'zt as he has no way to heal himself.

[Unoriginal]

Earth elemental speed while gliding is 30ft.

Need 10 ft to get out of the ground and 10ft to get back in. Large beings take lotsa space.



and eating one attack a round not a big deal. The biggest thing the druid has here is that he is an infinite ball of HP at 20th level. Unless Graz'zt can do enough damage to it in one round to kill the earth elemental for 126 damage and the druids (average HP with no con from 20 d8) 100 hp. The druid will outlast Graz'zt as he has no way to heal himself.

How many health-restoring spell does the Druid have?

[Vaz]

Earth elemental speed while gliding is 30ft and eating one attack a round not a big deal. The biggest thing the druid has here is that he is an infinite ball of HP at 20th level. Unless Graz'zt can do enough damage to it in one round to kill the earth elemental for 126 damage and the druids (average HP with no con from 20 d8) 100 hp. The druid will outlast Graz'zt as he has no way to heal himself.

So, infinite HP is the way forward, through either Invulnerability spell or Wild Shape.

Big G's max damage in one round with his 3 possible attacks (2 normal, 1 Legendary Action) is 306, assuming 3 Crits with Max rolls on his 8d6+6
(not taking into account resistances). Having a +5 Con or +3 Con with Tough would ensure that you'll never die in one turn.

[Unoriginal]

So, infinite HP is the way forward, through either Invulnerability spell or Wild Shape.

Big G's max damage in one round with his 3 possible attacks (2 normal, 1 Legendary Action) is 306, assuming 3 Crits with Max rolls on his 8d6+6
(not taking into account resistances). Having a +5 Con or +3 Con with Tough would ensure that you'll never die in one turn.

If you do enough damages to destroy the Wildshape, does any additional damage impact your HPs?

[OzDragon]

Need 10 ft to get out of the ground and 10ft to get back in. Large beings take lotsa space.




How many health-restoring spell does the Druid have?

It's not the spells that matter most although they do contribute.

We will start with those though. A druid has 4 1st level and 3 spells of 2nd thought 5th level all of which can be used to heal. Two slots each of 6th and 7th at which point the druid can cast heal.
One each of 8th and 9th.

So just using spells slots he can heal himself 21 times six of which can be the Heal spell. This healing can be done while in wild shape as well.

What matters more is that he can wild shape as much as he wants as a bonus action. Each time he does he shapes with full HP of what he changes into.
So technically with a bonus action the druid "heals" 126 HP when changing into a earth elemental.

Being able to do this on bonus action unlimited times per day equates to infinite ball of hit points.

[OzDragon]

If you do enough damages to destroy the Wildshape, does any additional damage impact your HPs?

Yes additional damage does go through to the druid himself.

[Unoriginal]

It's not the spells that matter most although they do contribute.

We will start with those though. A druid has 4 1st level and 3 spells of 2nd thought 5th level all of which can be used to heal. Two slots each of 6th and 7th at which point the druid can cast heal.
One each of 8th and 9th.

So just using spells slots he can heal himself 21 times six of which can be the Heal spell. This healing can be done while in wild shape as well.

What matters more is that he can wild shape as much as he wants as a bonus action. Each time he does he shapes with full HP of what he changes into.
So technically with a bonus action the druid "heals" 126 HP when changing into a earth elemental.

Being able to do this on bonus action unlimited times per day equates to infinite ball of hit points.

It means that one would have to deal 126 dmg before touching to their HPs , not that they have infinite HPs.

On average, Graz'zt can deal 204 dmg in two turns. Meaning he deals 78 dmg to the Druid's own HPs. Or 102 in one turn, which leave the Wildshape at 24 HPs of 0. If the Druid heals, they can't attack the same round, and they can heal 21 times, so... could the Druid kill Graz'zt before they have to heal 21 times?

[OzDragon]

So, infinite HP is the way forward, through either Invulnerability spell or Wild Shape.

Big G's max damage in one round with his 3 possible attacks (2 normal, 1 Legendary Action) is 306, assuming 3 Crits with Max rolls on his 8d6+6
(not taking into account resistances). Having a +5 Con or +3 Con with Tough would ensure that you'll never die in one turn.

Did you double your math here?

3Crit attacks with a 4d6+6 doubled is 24d6+18 that is only 162 max damage with all attacks.

Sorry forgot about the acid damage.

[OzDragon]

It means that one would have to deal 126 dmg before touching to their HPs , not that they have infinite HPs.

On average, Graz'zt can deal 204 dmg in two turns. Meaning he deals 78 dmg to the Druid's own HPs. Or 102 in one turn, which leave the Wildshape at 24 HPs of 0. If the Druid heals, they can't attack the same round, and they can heal 21 times, so... could the Druid kill Graz'zt before they have to heal 21 times?

You are forgetting that wild shaping is a bonus action. One which gives the druid back all his HP everytime. Also healing word is a bonus action. (not optimal but still)

[Vorpalchicken]

Bag of holding isn’t on the approved item list.

Do you still consistently win with your two d4+7 improvised weapon compared to his three 7 damage unarmed attacks, with his improved invisibility in play? It seems likely you still could, but it would be nice to see the math.

If you disarm him, you could always hold his weapon in one hand and attack with your own weapon in your other hand.

Also, is it really an improvised weapon? It's a greatsword. The usual rule for attacking with an oversized weapon is simply disadvantage. And that won't stack with Greater Invisibility.

[Lombra]

Zealot barbarian 15 with a magical weapon should cut it, literally. Unless Graz'zt can use his spellcasting features, which is a non-issue anyways because IDK, yuan-ti, even if I would prefer scourge aasimar.

[Unoriginal]

Did you double your math here?

3Crit attacks with a 4d6+6 doubled is 24d6+18 that is only 162 max damage with all attacks.

You forgot the acid damage.


You are forgetting that wild shaping is a bonus action. One which gives the druid back all his HP everytime. Also healing word is a bonus action. (not optimal but still)

It takes an action to drop out of Wildshape. Pretty sure you can't Wildshape while you're in Wildshape, so even if it needs a bonus action, to recover your full 126 additional HPs with your Wildshape you need to:

-drop out of Wildshape (1 action)

-get back in Wildshape (1 bonus action)

Which means you just stand there changing shape shapes while maybe moving a bit, but never attacking.

Which means you can do that for 9 rounds before you have to attack.


Zealot barbarian 15 with a magical weapon should cut it, literally. Unless Graz'zt can use his spellcasting features, which is a non-issue anyways because IDK, yuan-ti, even if I would prefer scourge aasimar.

Have you made the calculations?

[Vaz]

If you do enough damages to destroy the Wildshape, does any additional damage impact your HPs?

Yep: the remainder carries over. If you have 20 Wild shape HP remaining and only 15 normal HP left, and take 35 or more points of damage, you're sucking on death saves.

Earth Elemental with 126, and Average Rolls with 20 Con puts you at 326HP. Max possible damage is 306 in one round by Graazt. You could even get away with it by using Tough feat with only 12 Con (310HP).

His average damage per hit is 34. Let's say 2/3 hit, so 68 damage/turn. It takes 2 turns to reduce Stone Elemental to 0HP, but not deal any additional damage. Druid gets 2 Sword Attacks per Round (TWF), but if we assume Big G goes first, then every other turn, Drhid is healing themself. One turn at a time, D6 by D6, Graazt will die: the druid can even heal himself.

[OzDragon]

You forgot the acid damage.



It takes an action to drop out of Wildshape. Pretty sure you can't Wildshape while you're in Wildshape, so even if it needs a bonus action, to recover your full 126 additional HPs with your Wildshape you need to:

-drop out of Wildshape (1 action)

-get back in Wildshape (1 bonus action)

Which means you just stand there changing shape shapes while maybe moving a bit, but never attacking.

Which means you can do that for 9 rounds before you have to attack.




Have you forgotten about earthglide. Graz'zt will never get all his attacks in one round. He will get one AoO each round when the druid chooses to attack him.

He could get two a round if he uses the ready action.

[Naanomi]

The trouble with Zealot is that you lose this challenge at 0 HP, regardless of if you are still fighting or not

[Unoriginal]

Yep: the remainder carries over. If you have 20 Wild shape HP remaining and only 15 normal HP left, and take 35 or more points of damage, you're sucking on death saves.

Earth Elemental with 126, and Average Rolls with 20 Con puts you at 326HP. Max possible damage is 306 in one round by Graazt. You could even get away with it by using Tough feat with only 12 Con (310HP).

His average damage per hit is 34. Let's say 2/3 hit, so 68 damage/turn. It takes 2 turns to reduce Stone Elemental to 0HP, but not deal any additional damage. Druid gets 2 Sword Attacks per Round (TWF), but if we assume Big G goes first, then every other turn, Drhid is healing themself. One turn at a time, D6 by D6, Graazt will die: the druid can even heal himself.

Given the Elemental as an AC of 17, and I believe the maximum for a Druid without using a shield or magic is 18, it's be more accurate to say that Graz'zt hit 3/4 times.

So in 2 turns he'd have between 4 and 5 hits. Or between 134 and 170 dmg, meaning between 8 and 62 damages will touch the Druid's HPs directly.

So, can the druid kill Graz'zt before they runs out of healing spells?


Have you forgotten about earthglide. Graz'zt will never get all his attacks in one round. He will get one AoO each round when the druid chooses to attack him.

He could get two a round if he uses the ready action.

Earth Glide doesn't work in this challenge, but even if it did, Graz'zt can just dance around the Elemental who uses that strategy, and never be in the Elemental range unless *he* wants to attack.

[Naanomi]

Also, is it really an improvised weapon? It's a greatsword. The usual rule for attacking with an oversized weapon is simply disadvantage. And that won't stack with Greater Invisibility.
Is there a citation for this? It looks like an extrapolation from small creatues using heavy weapons; but I am not able to find it specifically for oversized weapons (though I will admit it could be in there, it hasn’t come up in any game I’ve been in specifically)

[OzDragon]

Earth Glide doesn't work in this challenge, but even if it did, Graz'zt can just dance around the Elemental who uses that strategy, and never be in the Elemental range unless *he* wants to attack.

Ok I'll concede this for this challenge. But I want to ask this how will Graz'zt know where the elemental is going to emerge? He does not have tremorsense nor does the elemental disturb the surface when he moves.

[Vorpalchicken]

Is there a citation for this? It looks like an extrapolation from small creatues using heavy weapons; but I am not able to find it specifically for oversized weapons (though I will admit it could be in there, it hasn’t come up in any game I’ve been in specifically)

I've been told it's on page 278 of the DMG but I don't have the book with me.

Starting to think a human druid with the right feats would be best at this. They would be the right size and ignore invisibility.

[Naanomi]

I've been told it's on page 278 of the DMG but I don't have the book with me.
Ah, kind of a weird place to put that (and I could see the argument that it is optional) but there it is. Probably means whoever is planning this strategy should carry a plain short sword or the like, because they’ll probably have to drop it in the heat of the moment of stealing his blade

[Unoriginal]

Ok I'll concede this for this challenge. But I want to ask this how will Graz'zt know where the elemental is going to emerge? He does not have tremorsense nor does the elemental disturb the surface when he moves.

the Druid will need 10ft to get out of the ground, and 10 ft to get back in, leaving them with 10ft of normal movement.

Therefore, Graz'zt just needs to get of of a 30ft radium circular area with for center the last point he saw the Druid get in.

[Naanomi]

Though if things were going poorly for the Druid, waiting out the clock underground and forcing a draw isn’t a bad trick to have

[OzDragon]

Given the Elemental as an AC of 17, and I believe the maximum for a Druid without using a shield or magic is 18, it's be more accurate to say that Graz'zt hit 3/4 times.

So in 2 turns he'd have between 4 and 5 hits. Or between 134 and 170 dmg, meaning between 8 and 62 damages will touch the Druid's HPs directly.

So, can the druid kill Graz'zt before they runs out of healing spells?



Earth Glide doesn't work in this challenge, but even if it did, Graz'zt can just dance around the Elemental who uses that strategy, and never be in the Elemental range unless *he* wants to attack.

I wanted to do this without spells but since you are not convinced a druid can do it without them. Druids can cast wish to critical strike with his Vorpal sword. Graz'zt is dead.
DOH no they can't!
Other things he can do, Foresight to impose disadvantage on all of Graz'zt attack and advantage on all of his. Polymorph into Balors and Pitfiends and such both of which have hefty melee attacks an around 300 HP. Among other things.

[OzDragon]

the Druid will need 10ft to get out of the ground, and 10 ft to get back in, leaving them with 10ft of normal movement.

Therefore, Graz'zt just needs to get of of a 30ft radium circular area with for center the last point he saw the Druid get in.

He would not have to attack every round and nothing says he can not stay underground but that's neither here nor there on this anymore.

[Vaz]

Given the Elemental as an AC of 17, and I believe the maximum for a Druid without using a shield or magic is 18, it's be more accurate to say that Graz'zt hit 3/4 times.

So in 2 turns he'd have between 4 and 5 hits. Or between 134 and 170 dmg, meaning between 8 and 62 damages will touch the Druid's HPs directly.

So, can the druid kill Graz'zt before they runs out of healing spells?
A simplistically, a druid can heal 90d6 IIRC, and every other turn, it can spend an action to get back.

After a quick browse of magi items: Answerer gives you 3 Possible Attacks per turn, with +3 bonus. If we assume that 50% hit, average damage is 11 per hit: or 35 hits. Asuming healing on your Bonus every 2nd turn, and every 3rd taking a new form, that gives you roughly 70 attacks, with 13 attacks every 6 rounds: basically, give or take about 30+ rounds.

Sitting down and doing basic maths, unless you go praying for a Decap with a Vorpal Sword. Admittedly, its 2am and i'm trying to comfort a teething baby, i may be off, but honestly, I think Graazt has the druid build bang to rights.

He stil can't do anything to the Invulnerable 130ft speed Dashing Bladesinger, though.

Tbf, anything that doesn't have always on 100ft+ speed and attack on same turn can be forced to lose by Graazt, simply be teleing away. Big G hits with attack, teles away. The timer starts, then on his turn moves close enough and hits with an attack immediately after the enemy fails, resetting the timer. Rinse and repeat.

[Naanomi]

Against the bladesinger, he can telekinesis himself to the top of the arena and wait out the draw still

[Vaz]

Throw Warcaster on the Bladesinger to deal opportunity attacks.

And if he waits out, he loses first. Invulnerability lasts for 10mins, so unless he's closing in to attack a creature he takes no damage from?

And there is a readied action, which I brainfarted, so can ignore that nonsense.

[OzDragon]

Specifics on how to kill Graz'zt as a Druid. Druid with max wis and 18 con. Avg 20d8+80 = 180 Weapons 2 +3 Large longswords

Round 1: Cast foresight. All attack from druid with advantage all attacks by Graz'zt with disadvantage. Graz'zt attacks hits 2 of 3 times for 16d8+12 for 68 damage Druid has 112 Hps left

Round 2: Cast Polymorph Marilith: Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 111 Hp left

Round 3: Merilith attacks 6 times with swords hits 4 of 6 for 4d8+8(non magic) and 4d8+14 magicand once with tail for 2d10+4 for 71 damage total Graz'zt has 307 Left
Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 43 Hp left

Round 4: Druid Drops polymorph and recasts into a Merilith: Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 111 Hp left

Round 5: Merilith attacks 6 times with swords hits 4 of 6 for 4d8+8(non magic) and 4d8+14 magicand once with tail for 2d10+4 for 71 damage total Graz'zt has 236 Left
Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 43 Hp left
Round 6: Repeat....

This does not even take into account the Meriliths parry ability for +5 ac vs one attack.

You see where this goes using averages the Druid Kills Graz'zt with relative ease.

[Naanomi]

And if he waits out, he loses first. Invulnerability lasts for 10mins, so unless he's closing in to attack a creature he takes no damage from?.
It’s been established that losing first isn’t the same as your opponant winning; a ‘draw’ is preferable to losing outright (for both parties)... in fact, preventing a draw (tougher than it sounds) is going to need to be part of any build that plans on winning outright

[Easy_Lee]

Bag of holding isn’t on the approved item list.

Do you still consistently win with your two d4+7 improvised weapon compared to his three 7 damage unarmed attacks, with his improved invisibility in play? It seems likely you still could, but it would be nice to see the math.

Yes, the barbarian does still consistently win because he's a damned barbarian. He has resistance to everything the opponent does, attacks normally due to reckless attack, and can use a grapple check to hold the boss down and prone while he beats on him.

But I really don't care because I don't have to follow anyone's rules. I know the implication in the OP is that I do have to follow the rules, but good luck enforcing even a quarter of those rules on any group of players.

And it isn't a sword duel if someone's casting greater invisibility, now is it? No, no it isn't, in fact. If he's going to do that, i'll just play a wizard...which I would do anyway.

This is what bothers me about threads like these. I've seen so many by now that it's downright predictable.

Boss the OP thinks is totally rad and unbeatable
Unrealistic battle arena
Arbritrary rules to prevent players from exploiting the boss' many weaknesses
The boss doesn't follow the rules
Multiple pages of back and forth follow, with people posting perfectly valid strategies and a smaller number of more persistent people insisting that they won't work

We all know Rule 0: the GM has the ultimate say in all rules matters, or the DM can make any ruling he chooses. Less well-known is this: players can and will destroy anything in front of them, no exceptions. Exhibit A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNxJVTJleE). Exhibit B (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Elfslayer_Chronicles). Exhibit C. (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_Guy_Destroys_Psionics) Exhibit D (https://kotaku.com/the-surprising-and-allegedly-impossible-death-of-everqu-1785741600).

tl;dr: your boss loses, guaranteed, because there is no force of destruction greater than persistent players.

[Naanomi]

Graz’zt is way way more hamstrung by the rules in this arena than most PCs would be... and the OP actually seems to think it is a fairly doable challenge (whereas I don’t think Graz’zt would even agree to such terms to begin with regardless of the prize)

[Unoriginal]

Specifics on how to kill Graz'zt as a Druid. Druid with max wis and 18 con. Avg 20d8+80 = 180 Weapons 2 +3 Large longswords

Round 1: Cast foresight. All attack from druid with advantage all attacks by Graz'zt with disadvantage. Graz'zt attacks hits 2 of 3 times for 16d8+12 for 68 damage Druid has 112 Hps left

Round 2: Cast Polymorph Marilith: Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 111 Hp left

Round 3: Merilith attacks 6 times with swords hits 4 of 6 for 4d8+8(non magic) and 4d8+14 magicand once with tail for 2d10+4 for 71 damage total Graz'zt has 307 Left
Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 43 Hp left

Round 4: Druid Drops polymorph and recasts into a Merilith: Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 111 Hp left

Round 5: Merilith attacks 6 times with swords hits 4 of 6 for 4d8+8(non magic) and 4d8+14 magicand once with tail for 2d10+4 for 71 damage total Graz'zt has 236 Left
Graz'zt attacks hits 2/3 times for 68 damage Merilith has 43 Hp left
Round 6: Repeat....

This does not even take into account the Meriliths parry ability for +5 ac vs one attack.

You see where this goes using averages the Druid Kills Graz'zt with relative ease.

You forgot that the Marilith can only do those 6 attacks if it has one sword in each hand. Here the Druid only has two.

Also the Druid doesn't have infinite Polymorph.

[Vaz]

How is the druid casting 2 9th level Spells?


It’s been established that losing first isn’t the same as your opponant winning; a ‘draw’ is preferable to losing outright (for both parties)... in fact, preventing a draw (tougher than it sounds) is going to need to be part of any build that plans on winning outright

So what that means is withoit access to At Will Flight or a 60ft high Jump, this challenge is moot, if Graazt is unable to win he can just Telekine himself out of range.

And there is no Draw. If you lose first, you still lose. There is no Draw, you simply lose first. It doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't win, it matters that Graazt lost first. If Graazt only answer to fighting a duel is to wait out a timer knowing that he can't do anything, then sure, well done, Big G.

In the meanwhile, I'm not really going to care, because I'm gonna be over here claiming the win regardless of what you say.

[ThePolarBear]

He stil can't do anything to the Invulnerable 130ft speed Dashing Bladesinger, though.

I still don't think that an armor or a shield made out of diamond would count as "mundane". [meant adamantite]

BTW, is anything in the rules magically prevented from happening or simply prone to disqualification? Does disqualification means that a retry is impossible?

[Unoriginal]

I still don't think that an armor or a shield made out of diamond would count as "mundane".

They wouldn't.



BTW, is anything in the rules magically prevented from happening or simply prone to disqualification? Does disqualification means that a retry is impossible?

If the rules say "it's impossible", then it's magically prevented from happening. Otherwise it's disqualification.

Disqualification doesn't mean that a retry is impossible.

[Tubben]

You forgot the acid damage.



It takes an action to drop out of Wildshape. Pretty sure you can't Wildshape while you're in Wildshape, so even if it needs a bonus action, to recover your full 126 additional HPs with your Wildshape you need to:

-drop out of Wildshape (1 action)

-get back in Wildshape (1 bonus action)

Which means you just stand there changing shape shapes while maybe moving a bit, but never attacking.

Which means you can do that for 9 rounds before you have to attack.



Have you made the calculations?

You can shape from one form into another, nothing in the rules says you have to be in casterform to wildshape:


Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to m agically assum e the shape of a beast that you have seen before. You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest. Your druid level determines the beasts you can transform into, as shown in the Beast Shapes table

(Moon Druid)

C o m b a t W i l d S h a p e
W hen you ch oose this circle at 2nd level, you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action. Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

also: sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/

Also, the Water Elementar has Resistance to Acid (and 114 HP).

Grazzt can attack 3 times / round for ~78, maximal 126 dmg (without crits), critdmg could be up to 234.

Sure, it's possible, that he can kill the Druid, but the fight will last long and Grazzt chance to loose is pretty high.

If i get foresight running (1min casttime), then my attacks have advantage his attacks disadvantage. Since the "Buff" is no concentrationspell, no checks needed for me, if i get hit.
Forsight last 8 hours, am i allowed to "precast" it? Or do you get "stripped of all buffs" ?

edit: rechecked the rules. Nothing in there which prevent prebuffing.

If Gazzt uses his teleport to avoid dmg, he can only attack twice. The water elementars movement + mobile is also 40. If feats for races are allowed, it would be 45 vs his 40 (forrest gnome).

What could work, btw, is legendary action (teleport) to 10 feet distance, melee attack twice and then move away 40 feet (no opportunity attack allowed). That way most people wont even get into melee range. Then you need to build around an char with an movement range >= 45.

But then i could cast an Antilifeshell AFTER i get an hit in (and i can use any faster form to reach him) and just wait the 10 rounds, because he cant hit me anymore)

[Vaz]

I still don't think that an armor or a shield made out of diamond would count as "mundane". [meant adamantite]

BTW, is anything in the rules magically prevented from happening or simply prone to disqualification? Does disqualification means that a retry is impossible?
What adamantine armour?

[Unoriginal]

If i get foresight running (1min casttime), then my attacks have advantage his attacks disadvantage. Since the "Buff" is no concentrationspell, no checks needed for me, if i get hit.
Forsight last 8 hours, am i allowed to "precast" it? Or do you get "stripped of all buffs" ?

edit: rechecked the rules. Nothing in there which prevent prebuffing.

There is no prebuffing because there is no preparation, and the PC appears with all their ressources unspent.

[Tubben]

There is no prebuffing because there is no preparation, and the PC appears with all their ressources unspent.

edited my first post.

But then i just do it without it, doesent really change anything.

[Naanomi]

Are material spell components allowed? They are not in the ‘approved item list’

[Unoriginal]

Anti Life Shell's radius doesn't protect again his greatsword's reach.

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

[Unoriginal]

Are material spell components allowed? They are not in the ‘approved item list’

They're not. Same for focuses.

[Vorpalchicken]

You forgot that the Marilith can only do those 6 attacks if it has one sword in each hand. Here the Druid only has two.

Also the Druid doesn't have infinite Polymorph.

Or even one True Polymorph because he cast Foresight. A Marilith isn't a beast so your 4th level spell won't work.

[ThePolarBear]

What adamantine armour?

The one you need to cast Invulnerability, since you are not allowed "normal" components.

[Vaz]

The one you need to cast Invulnerability, since you are not allowed "normal" components.

Apparently so. Silly of me to assume, I guess.

[dejarnjc]

Anti Life Shell's radius doesn't protect again his greatsword's reach.

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

Anti-life shell has a radius of 10 ft (i.e. two squares out from PC in cardinal directions). Grazzt has reach of 10ft, which means he can attack if he's in the sq next to PC OR if there's 1 sq between him and PC but not if there are 2 sqs between.

So, if this is done on a battlemat, I believe that Grazzt would not be able to attack a druid or bard PC for an hour.

Assuming all this is true. A bugbear druid or bard with a polearm should be able to win this fight w/out being scratched once due to having 15ft. of reach on melee attacks.

This sounds cheesy, because it is, but works due to pg. 251 of the DMG which states that "If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square."



*EDIT* The need to use swords vs. a polearm does make this trickier.

*EDIT EDIT* Wait, you're a druid or a bard. You could just plink away at them w/ cantrips. That makes this easier.

[Naanomi]

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.
Wait so... if they *cant* try to attack (because you are out of range in an unattackable place like the top of the arena; or have no chance of making the save against sanctuary) but really want to (ready an action in case the opponant ever enters range, or keep ‘trying’ the impossible save) does it disqualify or not?

[GlenSmash!]

The trouble with Zealot is that you lose this challenge at 0 HP, regardless of if you are still fighting or not

Ah. Loss by technicality. Lame.

[Unoriginal]

Wait so... if they *cant* try to attack (because you are out of range in an unattackable place like the top of the arena; or have no chance of making the save against sanctuary) but really want to (ready an action in case the opponant ever enters range, or keep ‘trying’ the impossible save) does it disqualify or not?

It doesn't disqualify them. The one staying protected in Sanctuary for 10 rounds would be DQ, however.


Ah. Loss by technicality. Lame.

Technically the rule says "0 HP, either dead or unconscious", so the Zealot wouldn't lose until their rage ends.

[GlenSmash!]

Technically the rule says "0 HP, either dead or unconscious", so the Zealot wouldn't lose until their rage ends.

Now we're talking.

My strategy would be very similar to Uzgul's Aasimar self-healing Zealot.

[No brains]

Could certain polearms count as swords? Glaive has etymological roots that tie it to swords, possibly making it count as a sword on a stick. How about other polearms such as a podao, zhanmadao, naginata, nagamaki, or similar pole-mounted long blade? If any of those are allowed, to what weapon do they equate?

I would say that this fits the spirit of the challenge if it can be considered within the letter. Using reach or PAM is still professing skill with a blade over magical trickery. It even invites the chance to seal a loophole- making it that swords must be wielded rather than used. A shortsword of warning is still 'used' for an advantage if it is on the character's person.

[Unoriginal]

Could certain polearms count as swords?

No.



I would say that this fits the spirit of the challenge if it can be considered within the letter. Using reach or PAM is still professing skill with a blade over magical trickery.

It doesn't fit the spirit of the challenge, because they're not swords.

It's not a blade vs magic trickery situation, it's a sword vs sword one.




It even invites the chance to seal a loophole- making it that swords must be wielded rather than used. A shortsword of warning is still 'used' for an advantage if it is on the character's person.

Why would you do that?

[Tubben]

Anti Life Shell's radius doesn't protect again his greatsword's reach.

Also, people are misunderstanding the "9 rounds" rule.

It's not that you're DQ if you can't touch someone in 10 turns, it's "you're DQ if you don't try to attack/reach your opponent for that long".

So it's a rule against trying to stay away/turtle up/get behind a forcefield and wait.

You are good to ignore the more elementar parts of an post.

I use an water elementar and a LS or two. What will you do now ?

Since you dont write your strategy how you will fight, i need to adapt on the fly also.

So, my answer to your first question is:

I use an lv 20 Moon druid. Mobile, Resilient (const), Alert, Sentinel, Warcaster. LS is an Defender with +3 to AC and an Shield (+2AC). I cast Guardian of Nature (Primal Beast) (castime = 1 bonus action), gives +10 Movement, Str. Based attack Rolls with Advantage, +1d6 force dmg/attack.
GoN can be used with whildshape ( https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951627935911301121 )

Since Concentration checks are rolled per dmg type, and each of it's own, my chance to keep my concentration is pretty high.

The Water Elementar has an CON of 18 (+4), with Profiency of 6 you need to do 24+ slashing or acid dmg so that i have to roll. Warcaster gives me advantage. Maximal non crit white dmg you can do is 30. My chance to roll a 5 with 2d20 is not to bad. Sure, if you crit me for max dmg (54 pts) i had to roll a natural 17 with 2d20. But then i can recast GoN the next round.

I will cast Longstrider in Round 2, which gives me another 10 Movement.

My Movement is 60, yours is 40. If you choose to teleport in, melee me twice and move out, i will still reach melee range on my turn. If really needed i can use wind elementar for a movement range of 120, which is enough to move from one end of the room to another.

If you choose to move in and teleport out to max range, i will follow you (so i dont get penalty for "not trying to reach you"), next round you can only move closer, or teleport in and move out. So, i will get you every second round in melee. And every other round i am free to cast some stuff to buff me.

You cast Greater Invisibilty, but dont have advantage, since i have alert. I dont have disadvantage, because of GoN

You cast sanctuary x3, last for 30 rounds, cant do much since i am not allowed to dispel magic you. Thats ok, i do Wisdom saving throws with +11, should still get ~50% (my rolling range is 12-31, vs your spell dc 23) of attacks in.

Could also start to cast forsight for 10 rounds, my chances are good i get that spell through and wildshape is not a spell, so i can still wildshape as an bonus action.
And i dont turtle and avoid fighting if i do this.

The few times you can get me out of my form because of crit luck, i can cast heal (fixed HP heal) 2 times for 70 hp, 1 times for 80 hp, 1 time for 90hp, 1 time for 100 HP.
After that i still have my spell slots for spell level 1-5 with weaker heals.

I will start with Regenerate in Casterform, which will start with an 4d8+15 and heals 1hp/turn. Need to discus if the effect stays in casterform or transform to elementar, because i just dont know - i never use that spell to be honest :-) If it do, then i use the lv 7 slot for another 80 hp heal :)

If the fight goes well, i will move into your space as an fire elementar, which ignites you. You need your action to douse the flame.

A cheap tactic for me would be to ignore attacking by myself, and just ignite you every round for 1d10 dmg (you are resistant, so it would take ages). If i am air, i could move to you, switch to fire, and back to air, using my action and bonus action. You need to ignore the flame and take the dmg or douse the flame and using your legendary action to attack me, or teleporting 120" away, which means, i reach you with 120" movement (Air 90, Longstrider 10", Mobile 10" and Guardian of Nature 10"). You could argue that Longstrider Movement and GoN movement dont stack, but even then, i only need to move 110 to get into melee range, since you are at the border, and i am one tile away, and you port to the other border, and i still have only to stay one tile away = 110".

I would probably not doing that, because it's stupid and takes to long, and you could also argue "all damage need to be done by sword".

[Vaz]

Concentration checks are taken per source of damage. Eg, 3 attacks hitting force 3 Concentration checks, with each one totalling Acid+Magic Slashing damage. You don't take 6 Conc checks? Unless I'm missing a rule?

[Tubben]

Concentration checks are taken per source of damage. Eg, 3 attacks hitting force 3 Concentration checks, with each one totalling Acid+Magic Slashing damage. You don't take 6 Conc checks? Unless I'm missing a rule?

Each source of damage is independent of the other. You roll against the slashing damage and then against the acid damage. Not combined.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/

Slashing dmg is an different source than the acid dmg.

[dejarnjc]

Each source of damage is independent of the other. You roll against the slashing damage and then against the acid damage. Not combined.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/

Slashing dmg is an different source than the acid dmg.

Wait, the source is the sword though right? It just happens to inflict both types of damage. Would you roll 2 CONC checks for meteor swarm too (bludgeoning & fire)?

[Unoriginal]

You are good to ignore the more elementar parts of an post.

Pointing out a detail isn't ignoring the rest. I just had no comment on it.


I use an water elementar and a LS or two. What will you do now ?

Since you dont write your strategy how you will fight, i need to adapt on the fly also.

I'm not going to do anything, this fight is not against me.





I use an lv 20 Moon druid. Mobile, Resilient (const), Alert, Sentinel, Warcaster. LS is an Defender with +3 to AC and an Shield (+2AC). I cast Guardian of Nature (Primal Beast) (castime = 1 bonus action), gives +10 Movement, Str. Based attack Rolls with Advantage, +1d6 force dmg/attack.
GoN can be used with whildshape ( https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951627935911301121 )

Since Concentration checks are rolled per dmg type, and each of it's own, my chance to keep my concentration is pretty high.

So you're saying that you're not attacking nor using your Wildshape in the first round, since you're using both your action and your bonus action?

Given that you're PC is a Druid, what are your HPs in your base form?



I will cast Longstrider in Round 2, which gives me another 10 Movement.

So you're not attacking in the first two rounds, correct?



My Movement is 60, yours is 40. If you choose to teleport in, melee me twice and move out, i will still reach melee range on my turn. If really needed i can use wind elementar for a movement range of 120, which is enough to move from one end of the room to another.

True




You cast Greater Invisibilty, but dont have advantage, since i have alert. I dont have disadvantage, because of GoN

True.



You cast sanctuary x3, last for 30 rounds, cant do much since i am not allowed to dispel magic you. Thats ok, i do Wisdom saving throws with +11, should still get ~50% (my rolling range is 12-31, vs your spell dc 23) of attacks in.

Why would Graz'zt cast this?



Could also start to cast forsight for 10 rounds, my chances are good i get that spell through and wildshape is not a spell, so i can still wildshape as an bonus action.
And i dont turtle and avoid fighting if i do this.

You have to maintain Concentration during that time, though. So you have to drop your spell. And you're not attacking while you're doing this.



The few times you can get me out of my form because of crit luck, i can cast heal (fixed HP heal) 2 times for 70 hp, 1 times for 80 hp, 1 time for 90hp, 1 time for 100 HP.
After that i still have my spell slots for spell level 1-5 with weaker heals.

Impressive defensive arsenal, but if you don't tell the attacks and damage you do, I can't say if you can outlast Graz'zt.

Consider that Druids are not proficient with the longsword.



I will start with Regenerate in Casterform, which will start with an 4d8+15 and heals 1hp/turn. Need to discus if the effect stays in casterform or transform to elementar, because i just dont know - i never use that spell to be honest :-) If it do, then i use the lv 7 slot for another 80 hp heal :)

When are you casting this spell? Also, yes, the effect stay.



If the fight goes well, i will move into your space as an fire elementar, which ignites you. You need your action to douse the flame.

This is not damage or an effect you inflict through an attack, so it doesn't work.

[Naanomi]

You have to Wildshape fairly quickly, since all of those spells (except guardian, which I guess you could do first) have material components you don’t have access to in the arena

[Unoriginal]

You have to Wildshape fairly quickly, since all of those spells (except guardian, which I guess you could do first) have material components you don’t have access to in the arena

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?

[dejarnjc]

FYI elves are proficient in longswords so you could just make an elven druid.

[Envyus]

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?

Most spells. Graz'zt is fine for his spells as he does not need Material Components.

[Naanomi]

Good point, I hadn't checked that. Which spells can't work?
Actually, my bad... Archdruid solves most of those problems (though is a big sticking point for other casters)

[Unoriginal]

Most spells. Graz'zt is fine for his spells as he does not need Material Components.

I know that. I was asking about which spells among the ones the Druid used. I know several healing spells would work.

[Tubben]

So you're saying that you're not attacking nor using your Wildshape in the first round, since you're using both your action and your bonus action?


First Round.
Action = Wildshape, Bonus action GoN (Voice)
Second Round
Action = Attack, Bonus Action Wildshape

After that i refresh Wildshape every Bonus Action, till i have to refresh GoN. Then Repeat at 1. If my Casterform gets to much damage, i use an action to heal the casterform and the bonus action to wildshape again.

Every dmg which transfer over to casterform (if he deals more than 114 hp / round) gets healed after casterdmg gets more than 70-100 hp (depends on the spellslot i have to use).

AC Water Elementar is 19 (Defender + Shield = +5AC).

I am not that good at math, could be better to use an earth elementar with 22 AC, and some more HP, but without resistance to Acid. Would give one more dmg, an better con save and 12 hp more. Could also be better to say 14 AC or 19 AC doesent matter, and i use 2 LS+3 instead of one LS and a Shield.



Given that you're PC is a Druid, what are your HPs in your base form?


Should be 145 or 165, not sure. Just use 145.



So you're not attacking in the first two rounds, correct?


Since Longstrider is VSM, and i cant use spells with Material Components, no :)



Why would Graz'zt cast this?


I just assumed it.




You have to maintain Concentration during that time, though. So you have to drop your spell. And you're not attacking while you're doing this.


I dont have to drop concentration on GoN to cast foresight.
But scratch that, foresight needs M



Impressive defensive arsenal, but if you don't tell the attacks and damage you do, I can't say if you can outlast Graz'zt.


LS dmg is 1D8+4 +1d6 force dmg.
+10 to hit. Advantage if he's not invisible.





Consider that Druids are not proficient with the longsword.


Elves are.



When are you casting this spell? Also, yes, the effect stay.


Regenerate is VSM, so i use that Slot for HEAL (VS)
= 2 x 70, 2x80, 1x90, 1x100 HP Heal (after that i have to fall back to spell levels 1-5).



This is not damage or an effect you inflict through an attack, so it doesn't work.
Aye, just scratch it :)

[Vaz]

As a heads up, you do need to maintain concentration when casting spells with a longer casting time. And regarding the material component for Foresight, you can still WS into a Hummingbird, pluck out a feather, and then you use that to cast Foresight afterwards.

Also, the source of damage regarding the acid damage is the sword;


lf you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.

You save against the Slashing+Acid damage. A Flaming Arrow would deal Piercing+Fire damage. Falling into a burning building would be taking damage from falling, and burning, but as these are two seperate sources. That Sage Advice you quoted just quotes the rulebook, it doesn't actually clarify what it means. Your interpretation is an understanding that the Acid and the Sword are different sources is not provided or reinforced in any way.

Also, regarding Wild Shape;


You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

There is no animal that has Wild Shape in their stat block, so they are not physically capable of doing so. Mike Mearls has no say-so within the rules; Jeremy Crawford is the rules guy. Mike Mearls is the chap who created a Patron spell list for a Warlock already including spells on the Warlock spell list, for example. The guy doesn't do rules. Which is fine, but essentially a strawman.

[ThePolarBear]

Should be 145 or 165, not sure. Just use 145.

This doesn't sound right. 20*5+3 = 103. Cos mod acts as a multiplier for a value of 20. What method are you using to generate the HPs?



Also, regarding Wild Shape; [...] There is no animal that has Wild Shape in their stat block, so they are not physically capable of doing so.

This is a wild (haha) jump in logic.

Wild Shape is a magical class feature. It does not require any particular anatomy to be used as class as class description goes, so the text from wild shape does not prevent the use under the rule "it must be physically able to", be it present on the creature stat block or not. Even creatures that do not have a swim speed can swim, even if that is not listed under the stat block, just as they are able to breathe, jump, or otherwise act in ways that the stat block does not describe.

If you think about it, a human druid is no different physically from a non druid human. And an Elf Druid is still a druid, even if not human (and so on for any possible race).
Unless in a setting all druids have "wild shape" organs they are born with or implanted at some point in life there's no reason to think a Wild Shaped Druid loses the ability to WS just because "the form is incapable to".

[Vaz]

This is a wild (haha) jump in logic.

Wild Shape is a magical class feature. It does not require any particular anatomy to be used as class as class description goes, so the text from wild shape does not prevent the use under the rule "it must be physically able to", be it present on the creature stat block or not. Even creatures that do not have a swim speed can swim, even if that is not listed under the stat block, just as they are able to breathe, jump, or otherwise act in ways that the stat block does not describe.

If you think about it, a human druid is no different physically from a non druid human. And an Elf Druid is still a druid, even if not human (and so on for any possible race).
Unless in a setting all druids have "wild shape" organs they are born with or implanted at some point in life there's no reason to think a Wild Shaped Druid loses the ability to WS just because "the form is incapable to".

I'm literally reading the rules. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

No creature can wild shape without the Druid Class Feature. The Wild Shape ability then states you can only keep abilities from the Beast can physically do. An Avariel can't take the form of a Tiger and Fly, for example. The Wild Shape ability is not something that any animal can physically do. Ergo, you don't retain any features of your class [...] unless the form is physically capable of doing so. Until you can provide a page number telling me what animals can physically wild shape, this is what the rules say.

Given that we're being so tight on RAW in this thread, it seems pertinent to follow the RAW, no?

[ThePolarBear]

I'm literally reading the rules. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

No creature can wild shape without the Druid Class Feature. The Wild Shape ability then states you can only keep abilities from the Beast can physically do. An Avariel can't take the form of a Tiger and Fly, for example. The Wild Shape ability is not something that any animal can physically do. Ergo, you don't retain any features of your class [...] unless the form is physically capable of doing so. Until you can provide a page number telling me what animals can physically wild shape, this is what the rules say.

Given that we're being so tight on RAW in this thread, it seems pertinent to follow the RAW, no?

Given that the very same rule allows you to use class features, and Wild Shape is a class feature, and the restriction in Wild Shape is about being physically unable to perform an action, and Wild Shape is not physically limited in any way since it does not require any physical component whatsoever except being conscious, alive (or undead, actually) and with more than 0 hps.

The fact that a bear does or does not have wild shape in the stat block is irrelevant.

Example of physical impossibility: a snake holding a sword in one hand.

No physical action is required to Wild Shape. You do not need to wiggle hands, be able to speak, be able to have 4 limbs and 2 tails since you need to dance on 2 limbs while having your two tails in the two free limbs.

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.

[Naanomi]

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.
Interestingly, depending on how ‘realistic’ we want to be, most wildshape choices would be unable to read because of limitations of their fine detail visual systems

[ThePolarBear]

Interestingly, depending on how ‘realistic’ we want to be, most wildshape choices would be unable to read because of limitations of their fine detail visual systems

True. Some creatures have better motion than static perceptions. Others can't see some colours. I can't even imagine what a Velociraptor actually sees or hears. That is a physical difference = organs are different. Again, a snake is not going to hold a sword in a hand anytime soon. (Unless there are snakes with hands. You never know :D)

[Vaz]

Given that the very same rule allows you to use class features, and Wild Shape is a class feature, and the restriction in Wild Shape is about being physically unable to perform an action, and Wild Shape is not physically limited in any way since it does not require any physical component whatsoever except being conscious, alive (or undead, actually) and with more than 0 hps.

The fact that a bear does or does not have wild shape in the stat block is irrelevant.

Example of physical impossibility: a snake holding a sword in one hand.

No physical action is required to Wild Shape. You do not need to wiggle hands, be able to speak, be able to have 4 limbs and 2 tails since you need to dance on 2 limbs while having your two tails in the two free limbs.

A human is physically able to read whether or not he is actually able to, unless there's a physical impossibility - like for example blindness. Not KNOWING how to do it is not a physical limitation.

You're still ignoring the fact that no Beast physically can Wild Shape, which is the requirement of using the Wild Shape class feature while you are Wild Shaped. Also, no, unless a human can cognitively process what is there, a human cannot physically read. They can however see the written materials, which is different from reading. Example #2 of a physical impossibility, a snake using Wild Shape. Again, please point out the stat block which states that a snake is physically capable of Wild Shaping.

But sure, I mean, it's no skin off my back if you're willing to forego the Wild Shape rules to support your argument :). It's a game after all, and if that's how you prefer to run it, sure.

[Unoriginal]

You're still ignoring the fact that no Beast physically can Wild Shape, which is the requirement of using the Wild Shape class feature while you are Wild Shaped. Also, no, unless a human can cognitively process what is there, a human cannot physically read. They can however see the written materials, which is different from reading. Example #2 of a physical impossibility, a snake using Wild Shape. Again, please point out the stat block which states that a snake is physically capable of Wild Shaping.

But sure, I mean, it's no skin off my back if you're willing to forego the Wild Shape rules to support your argument :). It's a game after all, and if that's how you prefer to run it, sure.

Vaz, you're ignoring the fact a Wildshaped Druid can still use their class features ADDITIONALLY to the animal's statblock features. There is nothing in the animal form that would prevent to use the use of the Wildshape class feature.

[Tubben]

As a heads up, you do need to maintain concentration when casting spells with a longer casting time.

Where did i said something different? I said i dont have to drop GoN while casting Forsight (Which is out of discussion anyway, since it needs M).
You said i could transfrom into an humming bird and get the feather, the rules are clear here: It's not allowed.




Also, the source of damage regarding the acid damage is the sword;
You save against the Slashing+Acid damage. A Flaming Arrow would deal Piercing+Fire damage. Falling into a burning building would be taking damage from falling, and burning, but as these are two seperate sources. That Sage Advice you quoted just quotes the rulebook, it doesn't actually clarify what it means. Your interpretation is an understanding that the Acid and the Sword are different sources is not provided or reinforced in any way.


You are wrong.

I was hoping that my quotet Tweet from CP made that clear. You save vs the slashing dmg part and THEN vs the acid dmg part. Not the dmg combined.
Same reason why you save vs each of the magic missles on each own and not all magic missiles combined.

Slashing dmg is an different source than acid dmg.
Falling dmg and the dmg from the lava would be two different sources. And the piercing dmg from the arrow is an different source than the fire dmg.

[Tubben]

This doesn't sound right. 20*5+3 = 103. Cos mod acts as a multiplier for a value of 20. What method are you using to generate the HPs?


Aye, 103 base not 105. As i wrote, math is not mine :) Made a quick calc in my head. Obviously it was wrong.

[Tubben]

Interestingly, depending on how ‘realistic’ we want to be, most wildshape choices would be unable to read because of limitations of their fine detail visual systems

Getting a bit off-topic:
(i allways talk about lv 20 druids)

In my game we handle that pretty easy. If the form has eyes, he can read, if he is able to speak, he can speak (a bear cant speak, just roaaaaaar :-)...). If he has hands, he can hold his staff/sword/shield.
Sure, you could always say; a rabbit cant read, because his eyes are to bad (are they? No clue), but it's still an game for my group and we play it for fun and not for an life simulation.
I still dont understand why an bear can provide somatic and voice components, but thats something different :)

@Vaz: You can wildshape from one form to another, not much to discuss here. Thats not even unclear.

[jollydm]

Now we're talking.

My strategy would be very similar to Uzgul's Aasimar self-healing Zealot.

Piggybacking on Uzgul's Zealot idea, it's important to note that he gave the character 16 levels in Barbarian, meaning he has Persistent Rage, so any of the parts expressing concern about Graz'zt doing something to "wait out the rage" can be ignored.

[Envyus]

Via Jermery Crawford you can't Wildshape from one form to another. You would have to drop the form first.

[Naanomi]

Piggybacking on Uzgul's Zealot idea, it's important to note that he gave the character 16 levels in Barbarian, meaning he has Persistent Rage, so any of the parts expressing concern about Graz'zt doing something to "wait out the rage" can be ignored.
Persistant Rage still ends after 1 minute... it stops the rage from ending *early*

[jollydm]

Persistant Rage still ends after 1 minute... it stops the rage from ending *early*

You are exactly correct, derp.

[Naanomi]

Where did i said something different? I said i dont have to drop GoN while casting Forsight (Which is out of discussion anyway, since it needs M).
You said i could transfrom into an humming bird and get the feather, the rules are clear here: It's not allowed
Actually as a level 20 Druid it is just fine... people focus on the unlimited Wildshape, but archdruid also lets you...
“ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren’t consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.”

[Tubben]

Actually as a level 20 Druid it is just fine... people focus on the unlimited Wildshape, but archdruid also lets you...
“ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren’t consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.”

Oh, yes. I forgot that. Thanks for the reminder.

[Tubben]

Via Jermery Crawford you can't Wildshape from one form to another. You would have to drop the form first.

I am sure you have a source you could provide ?

RAW doesent permit wildshaping from one form to another, every non official source says the same.
I just found something from Mike Mearls (aye, i know he's not the rule guy, but i guess he is not to bad at dnd rules.).

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/04/can-i-wild-shape-from-one-animal-form-right-into-the-next/
and
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/
and
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/15/wild-shape-to-wild-shape/


I searched now for 2 hours for some info from Chris Perkins or Jeremy Crawford saying you cant wildshape from one form to another, so i need your help please.
I even listened for 45 minutes to an podcast regarding druid wildshame with Jeremy Crawford (and english is not my native language, that was hard for me :-)..)
That was 45 minutes of pure wildshape talk with JC, and they talked like about everything. But he did not said you can OR cant wildshape into wildshape.
http://edit.dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/chris-avellone-and-philip-daigle-planescape-torment-enhanced-edition
05:40 - 51:42 Sage Advice - Wildshape with Jeremy Crawford.

[Vaz]

Vaz, you're ignoring the fact a Wildshaped Druid can still use their class features ADDITIONALLY to the animal's statblock features. There is nothing in the animal form that would prevent to use the use of the Wildshape class feature.

Within the limitations within the Wild shape class feature, which requires a creature must be physically capable of doing something. A Dog can't fly, a Rat can't Wild Shape.

The only creature which can Wild shape is a Creature with at least 2 levels of Druid, or a well worded Wish and a very Permissive DM. Given that such a creature doesn't exist as written that is currently an eligible choice of creature for Wild Shape, the point remains that no creature is physically capable of Wild Shaping, and thus, Wild shape is not a class feature that is kept when your transform.

[Unoriginal]

Within the limitations within the Wild shape class feature, which requires a creature must be physically capable of doing something. A Dog can't fly, a Rat can't Wild Shape.

The only creature which can Wild shape is a Creature with at least 2 levels of Druid, or a well worded Wish and a very Permissive DM. Given that such a creature doesn't exist as written that is currently an eligible choice of creature for Wild Shape, the point remains that no creature is physically capable of Wild Shaping, and thus, Wild shape is not a class feature that is kept when your transform.

So how does the person in Wildshape voluntarily get out of it?

After all, the creature would need 2 level of Druids at least to have access to this feature, and such creature doesn't exist as written.

[Vaz]

So how does the person in Wildshape voluntarily get out of it?

After all, the creature would need 2 level of Druids at least to have access to this feature, and such creature doesn't exist as written.

Within the wording of Wild Shape, which explicitly states you can end the form early while under the duration of its effects, and while under the duration of its effects, assume the form of another another, retaining class features that can be physically performed. If it can't physically performed, then you don't have the ability to do so.

You can't use the Wild shape class feature while you are already Wild Shaped, but you can end an ongoing Wild shape early while you are Wild shaped.

Thats the rules. But its cool, i understand that this is a game, and you've already houseruled that no spellcomponents exist under a magical thingamajig, so I'm not going to argue much more past this if you're going to houserule Wild Shape being changed as well.

Just thought it pertinent that you are doing so from the position of what the rules say. :)

[Unoriginal]

and you've already houseruled that no spellcomponents exist under a magical thingamajig,

It's not an houserule. Spell components do exist, they're just not allowed when the in-universe rules for the contest restrict equipment to a short list.

[Vaz]

However you want to dress it up, its cool. You do you man. Have fun :)

[Tubben]

Vaz, you are just wrong here.
You can use your class abilitys in Wildshape. Listen to the podcast i linked.
JC explizit said that.
He also explained what is meant with "physically able to do that" : Cant use a sword if you dont have hands, dont wear an ring without fingers.
Wildshape does not need anything physical...

You dont need legs, hands, eyes, a mouth to wildshape. Whildshape dont have VSM components.

[Vaz]

Vaz, you are just wrong here.
You can use your class abilitys in Wildshape. Listen to the podcast i linked.
JC explizit said that.
He also explained what is meant with "physically able to do that" : Cant use a sword if you dont have hands, dont wear an ring without fingers.
Wildshape does not need anything physical...

You dont need legs, hands, eyes, a mouth to wildshape. Whildshape dont have VSM components.

You have fun guys :)

[Tubben]

You have fun guys :)

Starting at 2nd levei, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before,

but hey, continue to talk about physically able.

[Vaz]

Starting at 2nd levei, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before,

but hey, continue to talk about physically able.

So, Wild Shape, being a magical ability, is something that isn't a physical capability, and thus, something that isn't carried over with Wild Shape :). Thanks for playing.

[Tubben]

So, Wild Shape, being a magical ability, is something that isn't a physical capability, and thus, something that isn't carried over with Wild Shape :). Thanks for playing.

Vou retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them ...

[Vaz]

Vou retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them ...

You're missing the important bit. Physically capable. Is any Beast physically capable of using a magical ability? Nurp.

But sure, like I said, it's your game, feel free to ignore whichever rules you want :) I'm out, though.

[Tubben]

You're missing the important bit. Physically capable. Is any Beast physically capable of using a magical ability? Nurp.


Yea, now i know i am being trolled.

[GlenSmash!]

Persistant Rage still ends after 1 minute... it stops the rage from ending *early*

Bumping level to 20 would get unlimited rages, so as long as you still has 1 hp or more when your previous rage ended you could just enter a rage again.

[Naanomi]

Bumping level to 20 would get unlimited rages, so as long as you still has 1 hp or more when your previous rage ended you could just enter a rage again.
If you had a reliable way to bump to 1 hp, sure. I would presume that being at 0HP at the time would prevent you from doing so because of being unconscious, dying, or perhaps dead (and therefore unable to use a bonus action)