3.5e price for arrow heads, looking for a dragon(?) feat and making summoning hard

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

I need some help.

1. I am searching for a way to price arrow heads that can contain liquids and stuff that only need to hit in order to activate.

2. I think I remember a feat that let a dragon to use breath weapons while flying, I tried looking in Races of the Dragon and Dragon magic without success.
Do you know a feat that let you do it?

3. I want to give my players sometime hard time using summons.
They have 2 Amulet of the Vermin (Giant Wasp, and Giant Stag Beetle), SM 2 Wand and The Psionic power Astral Construct(Level 6 Erudite).
Any Ideas?
They are fighting Male Drows(so I will not use something that cost a lot, nobody care abut them if they are males).

[ShurikVch]

2. I think I remember a feat that let a dragon to use breath weapons while flying, I tried looking in Races of the Dragon and Dragon magic without success.
Do you know a feat that let you do it?Dragonlance Campaign Setting have two feats: Flyby Breath and Strafing Breath

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting have two feats: Flyby Breath and Strafing Breath

Thanks you, that's the feat, Strafing Breath :).

[Alabenson]

Regarding the arrows, I don't have general pricing rules, but the price for an Alchemist's Arrow, which would be what you're describing containing Alchemist's Fire, is 75 gp (The item itself is in the Arms and Equipment Guide. You should be able to extrapolate the costs from that.

[Jowgen]

Regarding the arrows, I don't have general pricing rules, but the price for an Alchemist's Arrow, which would be what you're describing containing Alchemist's Fire, is 75 gp (The item itself is in the Arms and Equipment Guide. You should be able to extrapolate the costs from that.

In line with this, Dragon 349 p25 both reprints the Alchemists fire arrows (also Thundering Arrows), adds Alchemists frosts arrows (same price, deal immediate rather than burning damage), and adds Tanglefoot Bolts, costing 60 gp a pop. There is a little pricing consistency.

The flask-contained stuff seems to cost base price +50 gp, but with the downside of no splash, one step lower in damage dice, and having to hit a regular rather than a touch attach. The Tanglefoot bolt though only has a +10 gp surcharge in price, with the only downside being having to hit regular rather than touch AC. The Smokearrow works exactly like a smokestick and also has a +10 gp charge. Thundering arrows, at 2 gp, are actually a 10th of the price of regular Thunderstones with the same effect. You'd think it would at least limit the effect to one creature, but no, it says nothing of the sort. Minor dysfunction as far as I can tell.

So basically, I'd argue it's reasonable to assume that you can put anything alchemical that comes in flask form into an arrow/bolt by paying +50gp more than the alchemical item does, as long as you reduce the damage dice by one, and for everything else alchemical that gets turned into ammunition for delivery is +10 gp (so long as effect range is reduced or somesuch).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Regarding the arrows, I don't have general pricing rules, but the price for an Alchemist's Arrow, which would be what you're describing containing Alchemist's Fire, is 75 gp (The item itself is in the Arms and Equipment Guide. You should be able to extrapolate the costs from that.

Thank you, now I can start thinking on the price :)

It look like the arrow without the alchemist's fire should cost 55gp but that will only work for touch or inhale stuff from the arrow text.


making it shutter

Thank you for the pricing, I think I prefer the Magazine version.

[Calthropstu]

For making summons difficult, ready an action to shoot anyone casting a spell. Since summons take a full round to cast, you get two shots from each person who readies to try and disrupt the spell (the attack that triggers when they initiate the summons and then their initiative changes to right before the person who triggered the action)

You can also have a drow perform a flying tackle to initiate a grapple to break the spell.

Another thing you can do is hit them with status effects mid summon. Stun, daze, sickened, sleep etc all stop a summons dead in its tracks. Remember, summons take an entire round to cast. They're the easiest spells to disrupt.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For making summons difficult, ready an action to shoot anyone casting a spell. Since summons take a full round to cast, you get two shots from each person who readies to try and disrupt the spell (the attack that triggers when they initiate the summons and then their initiative changes to right before the person who triggered the action)

You can also have a drow perform a flying tackle to initiate a grapple to break the spell.

Another thing you can do is hit them with status effects mid summon. Stun, daze, sickened, sleep etc all stop a summons dead in its tracks. Remember, summons take an entire round to cast. They're the easiest spells to disrupt.

I forgot some information.
They usually summon before the the fight so I need some passive protection(they are attacking Drow storehouses).

for hitting the Summons with Status Affects, I got very bad rolls for way to much time, I am looking for someone that bypass rolls.

I will remember that for when the Erudite use is Powers(If he ever will get out of hiding).

[Goaty14]

Magic Circle from X could help out, depending on how many times you want to cast it, since most Summon Monster summons have an alignment, you probably prepare easily if you used the right dinivations to figure out the enemy's alignment.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Magic Circle from X could help out, depending on how many times you want to cast it, since most Summon Monster summons have an alignment, you probably prepare easily if you used the right dinivations to figure out the enemy's alignment.

The problem is that the party have summons from most alignments and most of there summons are N.

[Zaq]

The problem is that the party have summons from most alignments and most of there summons are N.

That's not actually a bad thing. It's not usually a good idea to straight up hard-counter the party's (or a given partymember's) main strategy. Making it less effective than anticipated, sure, but don't just straight up nope it without warning.

Forcing players to adjust tactics and think of new ways to approach problems is interesting and often fun. Telling players that their tricks just plain don't work should be done sparingly at most and should never leave the player feeling useless and bored.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That's not actually a bad thing. It's not usually a good idea to straight up hard-counter the party's (or a given partymember's) main strategy. Making it less effective than anticipated, sure, but don't just straight up nope it without warning.

Forcing players to adjust tactics and think of new ways to approach problems is interesting and often fun. Telling players that their tricks just plain don't work should be done sparingly at most and should never leave the player feeling useless and bored.

I understand that(I was going to block only parts of the battlefield).

The problem is that the only Summon they have that have an alignment different from N is SM2 wand(the weakest way for summoning for them) and they have nothing to stop them from using E,G,C or L, they can use all freely and the spell let them choose what they summon.
I can't block it with AntiMagic field because it will make them feel useless.

BTW, Summons are not their main strategy, they sometimes use it for BFC(making the enemies lose a turn with killing it or forcing them to move).

[Calthropstu]

A dedicated summoner is brutal for the gm to counter. I used a mythic fire oracle as a dedicated summoner and it was brutal. The one time I went all out I had about 50 monsters on the playing field in a battle we were supposed to run from. The GM's response was to send in a second wave.

Countering summons is actually pretty easy though... just field something the summons can't hit. Creatures with high ac and sr do very well against summons. Golems, dragons and the like are pretty much immune to summons.

Another thing that wrecks summon builds is being underwater. You pretty much restrict them to one or two options at that point, though astral construct is unaffected.

Another fun thing to do is make a counterparty a la linear guild style. See how they counter the summons of their opponents and use their own methods against them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Astral Constructs are best countered by targeting their (hilariously weak) saves instead of hacking through their hp. As long as you get around the construct immunities it's almost impossible for them not to fail their saving throws against a level appropriate DC.
The SM2 wand is easily countered by Dispel Magic. It shouldn't be much of a problem in a 6th level encounter anyway. Anything summoned with it should die as an afterthought to AoE attacks.
The Amber Amulet of Vermin tend to have rather high CL for their price, so dispelling them is a bad idea. Using the fact that they summon mindless vermin is more effective. They also have really bad reflex saves.


Countering summons is actually pretty easy though... just field something the summons can't hit. Creatures with high ac and sr do very well against summons. Golems, dragons and the like are pretty much immune to summons.
That depends heavily on level, build and which summons they're actually using.
The higher level SM summons come with a ton of SLA's and (Su) abilities that cover pretty much any conceivable situation you may run into as long as you know your summon lists. And druid summoners tend to combine Augment Summoning and Ashbound for a pretty good to-hit.
SNA is more beatstick focused, but even they get Storm Elementals. Those are pretty sweet blasters once you get to large sized ones. And their blasting is supernatural, so no SR.
And that's assuming the druid didn't get Greenbound or Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

It'll work against low level summons, but it's hard to actually find really hard to hit enemies at that level without getting repetitive.


Another thing that wrecks summon builds is being underwater. You pretty much restrict them to one or two options at that point, though astral construct is unaffected.
Again, depends on level and what summons they're using. Some of the underwater summons are nasty and even the bog-standard water elementals are pretty tough in their element.
And most of the SM list works just fine under water if you're summoning for their SLA's.

[Calthropstu]

Astral Constructs are best countered by targeting their (hilariously weak) saves instead of hacking through their hp. As long as you get around the construct immunities it's almost impossible for them not to fail their saving throws against a level appropriate DC.
The SM2 wand is easily countered by Dispel Magic. It shouldn't be much of a problem in a 6th level encounter anyway. Anything summoned with it should die as an afterthought to AoE attacks.
The Amber Amulet of Vermin tend to have rather high CL for their price, so dispelling them is a bad idea. Using the fact that they summon mindless vermin is more effective. They also have really bad reflex saves.


That depends heavily on level, build and which summons they're actually using.
The higher level SM summons come with a ton of SLA's and (Su) abilities that cover pretty much any conceivable situation you may run into as long as you know your summon lists. And druid summoners tend to combine Augment Summoning and Ashbound for a pretty good to-hit.
SNA is more beatstick focused, but even they get Storm Elementals. Those are pretty sweet blasters once you get to large sized ones. And their blasting is supernatural, so no SR.
And that's assuming the druid didn't get Greenbound or Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

It'll work against low level summons, but it's hard to actually find really hard to hit enemies at that level without getting repetitive.


Again, depends on level and what summons they're using. Some of the underwater summons are nasty and even the bog-standard water elementals are pretty tough in their element.
And most of the SM list works just fine under water if you're summoning for their SLA's.

I tried pathfinder summon 7's getting 1d3+1 huge water elementals against a modestly augmented dragon turtle and they were virtually useless.
Against hordes of monsters, summons are extremely useful. Against heavy powerhouses, they're not even a speed bump.

The dcs of the spell like abilities of the summons are laughably pitiful. Anything level apropriate will make those saves. Still, nat 1's are a thing and spamming large numbers will eventually get a fail... assuming they can even get past sr. That's why I said dragons and constructs... high sr and high ac for a lvl appropriate single monster challenge will safely ignore summons completely.

There IS one summon that is amazing to take into a fight against virtually anything: lantern archons. In large numbers, lantern archons beat ANYTHING. Nothing is immune to lantern archons and concentrated fire from enough lantern archons obliterate even the most powerful of foes. They are the reason hell or the abyss cannot ever beat the heavens.

Pit fiend? Lantern Archons. Balor? Lantern Archons. Dragons? Lantern Archons. Wizards? Lantern Archons. Lantern Archons? More Lantern Archons.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I tried pathfinder summon 7's getting 1d3+1 huge water elementals against a modestly augmented dragon turtle and they were virtually useless.
Against hordes of monsters, summons are extremely useful. Against heavy powerhouses, they're not even a speed bump.

I think we're talking past each other. I'm referring to 3.5 summons, seeing how my experience with PF is rather limited. I'm fairly sure the OP is talking about 3.5 too.
Iirc PF did away with SNA getting elementals a level earlier, so that'll certainly have an influence.
I'm also fairly sure the summon lists are very different in general between 3.5 and PF, so before any argument we'd have to agree on which of the two we're actually talking about.


The dcs of the spell like abilities of the summons are laughably pitiful. Anything level apropriate will make those saves. Still, nat 1's are a thing and spamming large numbers will eventually get a fail... assuming they can even get past sr. That's why I said dragons and constructs... high sr and high ac for a lvl appropriate single monster challenge will safely ignore summons completely.

3.5 SM3 gets Coure Eladrin and Musteval Guardinals, both of which can spam Magic Missile long before SR becomes common. And that's just for starters.
SM4's and up get more BFC, buffs and debuffs than i'll list here when there's lists around to look it up if you're interested. Some are even at higher CL than the summon spell used to get them.
SM5 gets Energons with 4 incorporeal touch attacks a piece and energy rays in every flavor of energy damage.
Storm Elementals, as mentioned, get very competitive blasting once you reach large size and above. As a supernatural ability.
Rashemi Elemental Summoning gets you Orglashes, with Cone of Cold at CL=HD (which are pretty high for the bigger ones).

[Calthropstu]

I think we're talking past each other. I'm referring to 3.5 summons, seeing how my experience with PF is rather limited. I'm fairly sure the OP is talking about 3.5 too.
Iirc PF did away with SNA getting elementals a level earlier, so that'll certainly have an influence.
I'm also fairly sure the summon lists are very different in general between 3.5 and PF, so before any argument we'd have to agree on which of the two we're actually talking about.



3.5 SM3 gets Coure Eladrin and Musteval Guardinals, both of which can spam Magic Missile long before SR becomes common. And that's just for starters.
SM4's and up get more BFC, buffs and debuffs than i'll list here when there's lists around to look it up if you're interested. Some are even at higher CL than the summon spell used to get them.
SM5 gets Energons with 4 incorporeal touch attacks a piece and energy rays in every flavor of energy damage.
Storm Elementals, as mentioned, get very competitive blasting once you reach large size and above. As a supernatural ability.
Rashemi Elemental Summoning gets you Orglashes, with Cone of Cold at CL=HD (which are pretty high for the bigger ones).

Ok, compare what you can summon at 14th lvl normally against a cr 16 (party lvl+2) dragon or golem in either system.

You will find the summons coming up extremely lacking.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ok, compare what you can summon at 14th lvl normally against a cr 16 (party lvl+2) dragon or golem in either system.

You will find the summons coming up extremely lacking.

A huge Storm Elemental (SNA7) comes with Thunder and Lightning for 8d6 electricity (ref for half), 16d6 sonic (fort for half), both DC 24, 1/minute (so once at the start of the fight most likely).
Plus another 8d4 nonlethal electricity, fort for half as a free action every round.
That's on top of the normal stats for a huge elemental, which are generally pretty beefy and hit decently hard.

Against a Greater Stone Golem (CR16) it won't win by itself, but that shouldn't be surprising.
It will however start the fight with a guaranteed ~40-80 damage, depending on if the golem saves - DC 24 against +14 fort/+12 ref - and hit with its slam attacks on an 11 or better.

Dragons have better saves, but they're not immune to the nonlethal shock 1/round. So they're getting pretty banged up too unless they're immune to electricity and/or sonic.

And that's without putting any feats or other resources at all into summoning.

SM7 is a little more disappointing in the beatstick department, but they still get huge (non-storm) elementals, which can at least take and deal damage, as mentioned above.

So no, i wouldn't call summons "extremely lacking". They won't kill an enemy on their own, but picking the right one will do and soak damage just fine.

[Calthropstu]

A huge Storm Elemental (SNA7) comes with Thunder and Lightning for 8d6 electricity (ref for half), 16d6 sonic (fort for half), both DC 24, 1/minute (so once at the start of the fight most likely).
Plus another 8d4 nonlethal electricity, fort for half as a free action every round.
That's on top of the normal stats for a huge elemental, which are generally pretty beefy and hit decently hard.

Against a Greater Stone Golem (CR16) it won't win by itself, but that shouldn't be surprising.
It will however start the fight with a guaranteed ~40-80 damage, depending on if the golem saves - DC 24 against +14 fort/+12 ref - and hit with its slam attacks on an 11 or better.

Dragons have better saves, but they're not immune to the nonlethal shock 1/round. So they're getting pretty banged up too unless they're immune to electricity and/or sonic.

And that's without putting any feats or other resources at all into summoning.

SM7 is a little more disappointing in the beatstick department, but they still get huge (non-storm) elementals, which can at least take and deal damage, as mentioned above.

So no, i wouldn't call summons "extremely lacking". They won't kill an enemy on their own, but picking the right one will do and soak damage just fine.

Those abilities are all fort saves and specifically calls out creatures, which means the golem is immune. Its only source of possible damage is its slam attack... which can be safely ignored.

The huge elementals don't do enough damage with their slam attacks, not bypassing its dr... and again can be safely ignored.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Those abilities are all fort saves and specifically calls out creatures, which means the golem is immune. Its only source of possible damage is its slam attack... which can be safely ignored.

The huge elementals don't do enough damage with their slam attacks, not bypassing its dr... and again can be safely ignored.

The lightning is a ref save actually and doesn't. And i disagree with the interpretation that the sonic damage doesn't work, but whatever.
Also the huge Storm Elemental does 2d6+11 +2d6 electricity on a slam, which does ~15 damage per hit even with the golems DR.
So i don't really see how they can be "safely ignored", seeing how the golem only does ~26 damage per hit against the elementals DR 5/-.

As for the other huge elementals, summon a fire one. Not only does it do 2d8 fire damage on a hit, it'll also do the same every time the golem hits back.

Or you could just summon 1d4+1 Energons and let them laser the golem to pieces from out of its reach. It'll take a bit, but they'll only miss on a 1.

So yeah, summons can in fact do damage to level appropriate challenges. Assuming you choose the right ones. Even if you pick the worst matchup possible and don't actually build for summoning.
They won't defeat them 1on1 usually, but if you're expecting a single spell to do that without significant optimization your perspective is clearly skewed.

[Lapak]

The PCs pre-summoning to attack known targets does take away a weakness, but it adds one as well. There’s a couple of categories of things that tend to work poorly on PCs but pretty well on summons: traps and disabling effects.

If the drow know that the PCs exist and have an idea that they’re coming, setting a few traps and having guards equipped with nets to be used in the first round of combat will slow/incapacitate/debilitate their Summoned first wave (which often have worse saves and fewer mobility/escape options than the PCs will) and it rewards the party for their prep without making that preparation useless. An Astral Construct (actually, several of their standard summons) are surprisingly vulnerable to net entanglement, some of them are vulnerable to dead falls or pit traps. They suck up those attacks and resources, which is good for the PCs, but it slows or stops their ability to just let the summons tank the whole encounter.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The PCs pre-summoning to attack known targets does take away a weakness, but it adds one as well. There’s a couple of categories of things that tend to work poorly on PCs but pretty well on summons: traps and disabling effects.

If the drow know that the PCs exist and have an idea that they’re coming, setting a few traps and having guards equipped with nets to be used in the first round of combat will slow/incapacitate/debilitate their Summoned first wave (which often have worse saves and fewer mobility/escape options than the PCs will) and it rewards the party for their prep without making that preparation useless. An Astral Construct (actually, several of their standard summons) are surprisingly vulnerable to net entanglement, some of them are vulnerable to dead falls or pit traps. They suck up those attacks and resources, which is good for the PCs, but it slows or stops their ability to just let the summons tank the whole encounter.
Thank you, this is great and fit very good in the plot (the Drow do know the PC are coming, I let the PCs find a Drow text with information on their fights).


Now the only problem is my bad rolls(I am ok with it, it help me move the story).

[Hugh Mann]

If the Drow are in their own base or a place they frequent often, and you are allowing a bit of D&D 3.0, then maybe they have the spell Distort Summons from Book of Vile Darkness.



Distort Summons

Transmutation [Evil]
Level: Demonologist 3, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 50-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 hour/level

The caster creates an area in which only evil creatures can be magically summoned.
No matter what a later caster attempts to summon, he actually summons an evil version (a fiendish beast rather than a celestial one, for example) or an evil equivalent (a devil rather than a formian).
If the summoner was attempting to summon a good or neutral creature, the evil creature that appears does not obey the commands of the summoner or attack his enemies.
Instead, it attacks the summoner, and the spell that summoned the evil creature cannot be dismissed.
A distort summons spell can be dispelled normally, however.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If the Drow are in their own base or a place they frequent often, and you are allowing a bit of D&D 3.0, then maybe they have the spell Distort Summons from Book of Vile Darkness.

This is great, I think I will use it on a shrine with unhollow.

[Calthropstu]

Keep in mind, that will not work for astral construct. Astral constructs are not summoned creatures, they are crafted from astral material.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Keep in mind, that will not work for astral construct. Astral constructs are not summoned creatures, they are crafted from astral material.

Thank you for the information.