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View Full Version : DM Help 2nd LMoP session, Redbrand Hideout: Some advice needed



Fellentos
2018-02-18, 12:31 PM
First time DM here, 2nd session, with first time D&D players. (1 hunter ranger, 1 revised protection cleric, 1 devotion paladin: 3rd level)

So we started our 2nd sessions after the first session ended with a "TPK" in a sense, in the Goblin Cave (Cragmaw Hideout, Lost Mines of Phandelver).

I explained to them that the NPC Sildar Hallwinter stabilized them and set them free because the Goblin Boss who kept him imprisoned was killed during the fight, and Sildar cut his bonds loose while the 2 remaining Goblins were getting Klarg for their next move since they were leaderless. They quickly fled the cave under advisement of Sildar and took a long rest deep in the woods. I made them roll for a random encounter (1 D6). They rolled a 6 so nothing happened. Afterwards they went back to the cave and noticed that Klarg had confiscated their own wagon from the road and was putting all the stolen goods on it to leave for the Cragmaw Base. They ambushed them succesfully (1 bugbear, 2 goblins and a wolf) by persuading the wolf to fight for them with a ranger Speak With Animals. The bugbear hit hard but the damage was halved by Channel Divinity from a Revised Protection Cleric. Klarg was interrogated when he was put unconscious but after they healed him a bit (on request) he fled and was shot down.

The ranger wanted to put an arrow in his heel but he rolled too much damage so Klarg was killed, instead of incapacitated due to my ruling, because I wanted him to fight to the death.
1. How would you handle this request?

Anyway they went to Phandalin. Turned in the goods, got information about the Redbrands, talked to Sister Gareale, got the Agatha banshee quest. They wanted to go for her, but I made them go into the Redbrand encounter where they are attacked on the street. After that they went to Tresendar Manor and found the main entrance in. They killed the first few Redbrands, got their cloaks, sneaked in, killed the nothic, and they encountered the 'captain' in the room before Glasstaff and they got into a fight with 'poisoned' redbrands because they couldn't deceive them. They killed them easily.
Anyway then went to Glasstaff who was alerted by the familiar and he ran for the exit. However his sack was already taken which took him time before he ran again, and the Protection cleric ran outside the secret entrance to the main exit from on top of the Hideout so Glasstaff could no longer escape and had to fight. He was able to cast Mage Armor and a Hold Person on the paladin before he surrendered in the 2nd round (5 hitpoints left). A bit anticlimactic if you ask me for the end boss of this area. But since there were no mercenaries near he could not call for help. We ended the session with the capture of Glasstaff.
2. Any ideas how I could have made this more interesting?

My players are having a hard time roleplaying their pre-generated characters. They are being a bit dickish to the other NPCs in the world and I made that somewhat apparant in-game to influence it, by playing the NPC's a bit annoyed. The dwarf plays his pre-gen like a greedy bastard, but he's playing a good-aligned good-hearted Cleric. I also used Inspiration points to stimulate the roleplaying but so far it's not having a great effect yet. I feel they are playing it too video-gamey.
3. Any suggestions on how to go with this?

Overall
The players and I had an awesome time. There was a lot of laughing about some silly ideas, and the players were keeping track of all the quests and treasure they amassed. They did use some abilities of the class but they rarely cast a spell in combat (except channel divinity). I urged them before the session to read their Class abilities and spells I send them with the pre-gen character sheets but I could tell they hardly did any reading. So far they played it smart with the deception and stealth, but the next sessions (Thundertree, Cragmaw Castle) could get pretty nasty without some spell use. Any further suggestions?

othaero
2018-02-18, 05:22 PM
For point 1: Instead of basing it off of how much damage he does, I would have given him disadvantage on the attack (it essentially being a called shot and therefore being more difficult). That way the player doesn't feel cheated by rolling well with his dice.

For point 2: Your players seem to have had fun and as a DM that must be our metric (IMO) for how successful the session was. It seems like your Glassstaff encounter went better than mine, one of my players (playing a sorcerer) one shot him with an upcasted chromatic orb and got a crit on him which brought him down in one hit.

For the final point: The best way to get players to use their abilities (again IMO) is to design a fight where they need to use it to survive/win. For example lets say you have a Barbarian who never wants to rage. Assuming that this isn't a character concept choice, emplace a heavy hitting enemy against him. When he gets walloped by said guy (have the attack do something like 1/2 HP on a hit), gently remind him that "Rage" would have reduced the damage. Or you could have a helpful NPC that is similar to one of the PCs use the ability and hopefully the player thinks, "Hey I'm a *insert class here* and I can do that too!" But sometimes you have players who just won't/can't learn what their abilities do and won't be bothered too.

DonEsteban
2018-02-18, 07:39 PM
Hi Fellentos, welcome to DMing. Enjoy the ride!

You say you all had fun and that proves that you did a good job. Well done! You ask questions and that proves that you want to learn, which means that you are already an above average DM. Congratulations!

Now I suggest you read the Dungeon World section for game masters. You can find it here (http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/gamemastering/#Principles). The first few paragraphs up to and including the Prinicipals are sufficient. It's a different game, but the advice is good for every game and it helped me a lot.

Regarding your question number 1: The ranger's player wanted his character to be awesome and you should be a fan of their characters. So I would have told him that he has disadvantage on the roll, but I wouldn't deny his efforts after he successfully hit just because the rules (appeared to) demand it. Or because I didn't plan it this way. Players don't want awesome stuff to happen to their characters, they want their characters to make awesome stuff happen. That doesn't mean that you should allow everything, but if the fiction and the rules support it, go with it, even if it means that you have to change your plans.

It sounds as if they handled the Redbrand Hideout pretty smartly. Glassstaff isn't the greatest wizard of all time. He can't do that much on his own and I always thought he was a bit of a weasel and a bragger. Maybe you were a bit too literal here with him recovering his satchel in the cistern (took me a while to get what you meant by "sack"). You could just have had him escape off-screen, maybe. But no harm done here. You could also have let him lament about how easily they overcame his guards, which they apparently did, and maybe even try him to hire them (and betray them later). But it doesn't sound like you necessarily did anything wrong here. A low-level wizard on his own is not such a great threat. As a general rule: Never do a solo end-boss fight in D&D! It rarely ever works! You could easily have given him a couple of Redbrands for support (coming in from a patrol or something), especially if they are already level 3.

Which brings me to a question: Why? They shouldn't be at this point in the adventure. Did they start out higher than level 1? That might have been a mistake, especially for inexperienced players. You shouldn't underestimate the complexity of a level 3 character if they don't even know the rules properly.

As to your player's attitude: Again, I think you did well by having the world react to them appropriately. Keep that up, it's the only way to show them that they are playing living characters in a complex world. (Apart from outright telling them, which could also work, but is always inferior to showing them.) Don't be too disappointed if it doesn't work, though. It is possible that it is just not their style and they are never going to change. Then you can either live with it or find different players. But it's far too early to give up on them after two sessions.

Also don't force them to play their characters exactly as you intended them to be. They are their characters now and they can have them act like they want. That's what roleplaying is all about, right? Just try to be a fan and do what the principles demand. You can always point out to them that their behaviour is inconsistent, but be careful. Nobody want's to be criticised all the time, especially while they're supposed to have fun. It's better to lead by example, so try to show them again, for example by how you handle all the NPCs.

Regarding their use of abilities: If they're heading towards one of the more serious encounters (the orcs, the dragon, Cragmaw Castle) let them have a "random" encounter. To hell with rolling for it, just select an appropriate one. A goblin or orc patrol or a few wolves will do nicely. Then see if they can handle it and start from there. If they do well, all the better. If not, the druid could show up to safe their asses and give them some advice in character and their players (if they ask) some out of character advice on how they could have done better.

johnbragg
2018-02-18, 08:31 PM
You did a good job, first of all.

Point 1. As above, mechanically this is what Disadvantage is for.

Point 2. You're running a module as a first-time DM. Glasstaff isn't the toughest opponent.

Point 3. Is two separate points. Your PCs are being jerks to the NPCs. That's their choice, no matter what it says on their character sheets. You're right to have the world treat them accordingly.

My first thought when reading this a few hours ago was to throw in an NPC adventuring party, or an NPC adventurer, who's super nice to everyone and everyone likes him--and gives him information, and free drinks, and discounts on buying gear. A bard is perfect for this--high Charisma, everyone likes to hear him or her sing.

As for using their spells, 5th edition made cantrips really strong. I'm not sure what to tell you here.

Fellentos
2018-02-19, 07:06 AM
Hi Fellentos, welcome to DMing. Enjoy the ride!

Regarding your question number 1: The ranger's player wanted his character to be awesome and you should be a fan of their characters. So I would have told him that he has disadvantage on the roll, but I wouldn't deny his efforts after he successfully hit just because the rules (appeared to) demand it. Or because I didn't plan it this way. Players don't want awesome stuff to happen to their characters, they want their characters to make awesome stuff happen. That doesn't mean that you should allow everything, but if the fiction and the rules support it, go with it, even if it means that you have to change your plans.
/
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Which brings me to a question: Why? They shouldn't be at this point in the adventure. Did they start out higher than level 1? That might have been a mistake, especially for inexperienced players. You shouldn't underestimate the complexity of a level 3 character if they don't even know the rules properly.

Thanks for the tip! I did use Disadvantage multiple times during the session but forgot about it in this instance...

I started them at Level 2 because I read some advice somewhere else that criticals could one-hit kill and I did not want that to happen to my players. Also I wanted to show them progression and a sense of accomplishment by leveling them up after session 1. I'm planning to let them at level 3 until they finish Cragmaw Castle and a few other quests.




As to your player's attitude: Again, I think you did well by having the world react to them appropriately. Keep that up, it's the only way to show them that they are playing living characters in a complex world. (Apart from outright telling them, which could also work, but is always inferior to showing them.) Don't be too disappointed if it doesn't work, though. It is possible that it is just not their style and they are never going to change. Then you can either live with it or find different players. But it's far too early to give up on them after two sessions.

Also don't force them to play their characters exactly as you intended them to be. They are their characters now and they can have them act like they want. That's what roleplaying is all about, right? Just try to be a fan and do what the principles demand. You can always point out to them that their behaviour is inconsistent, but be careful. Nobody want's to be criticised all the time, especially while they're supposed to have fun. It's better to lead by example, so try to show them again, for example by how you handle all the NPCs.

Regarding their use of abilities: If they're heading towards one of the more serious encounters (the orcs, the dragon, Cragmaw Castle) let them have a "random" encounter. To hell with rolling for it, just select an appropriate one. A goblin or orc patrol or a few wolves will do nicely. Then see if they can handle it and start from there. If they do well, all the better. If not, the druid could show up to safe their asses and give them some advice in character and their players (if they ask) some out of character advice on how they could have done better.

Noted, I'll keep my own expectations low on the roleplaying side, and try to motivate them using NPC interactions.

Good idea about the random encounter. They were hardly tested, apart from the Goblin Cave TPK (which was a lot of bad rolling by the way). Perhaps I should also do something about the character sheet spell display. I have every possible spell they can use printed out in A4 format after page 3 of their character sheet. Their spell list is on page 3 (without descriptions), and the descriptions are the following pages in small boxes. Perhaps it's just too overwhelming like you said.

I did ask the Paladin player about it and he said he didn't feel he needed to use his abilities and was saving them. Redbrand Hideout was too easy for them, probably because of level 3 and the smart play. I was just afraid of another TPK since Goblin Cave so I did modify encounters a little bit.

Other posts
Thanks for the encouragement and all the ideas! I'm trying as best as I can, but I do find D&D 5E pretty complex sometimes as a DM with so many rules. Looking back though, I think the sessions went as good as possible for us first timers.

johnbragg
2018-02-19, 09:23 AM
I did ask the Paladin player about it and he said he didn't feel he needed to use his abilities and was saving them. Redbrand Hideout was too easy for them, probably because of level 3 and the smart play. I was just afraid of another TPK since Goblin Cave so I did modify encounters a little bit.


They were right, then, about not needing to use their abilities. Both sides of the screen are learning.

DonEsteban
2018-02-19, 01:35 PM
I was just afraid of another TPK since Goblin Cave so I did modify encounters a little bit.

Probably a wise choice. It's not a big problem if most encounters are too easy. It speeds up play and lets your players feel awesome. Ramp it up gently until you reach the sweet spot.

A note about my earlier advice on letting the druid save them if they get in trouble: That's usually bad advice, because it could lead to a DMPC. Nobody likes standing in the shadow of a badass NPC who gets all the spotlight. But in your specific situation it could be a nice lifeline and a way to humble them a bit. Just don't get used to it!