Problem with Perception

[Mjolnirbear]

I have a problem with Perception.

As a contested skill vs Stealth, it's amazing. It's everything an Ability Check could ask for:

"Suddenly, the goblin assassin turns Invisible. You hold your breath, listening intently, trying to find out where it is. You feel something, you're not even sure what... wait! Stale sweat and blade oil! HE'S BEHIND YOU".

But as a search tool, it sucks. Investigation is what you use when you're trying to find something out. Perception is for two things: paying attention, and being alert. How often do you ask your players "Hey, are you paying attention? Are you alert?" and they say no? OF COURSE they're alert. They are seasoned adventurers, they are always alert!

So outside contested checks, it is either That Other Investigation Check, or the check you ask for to see if your players' characters are paying attention or not. Which is a gotcha. Of course they are paying attention. Or it's the check you ask for when you want to announce that there's something stealthing around the camp but if they roll low they have to pretend you didn't just give the whole ambush away.

To me, that's like assuming your players aren't smart enough to choose a path to avoid opportunity attacks. Unless you want them to stand there for five minutes confirming every last square is free of danger, you say "Yes, you can move to avoid opportunity attacks" if that's reasonable, or warn them "Due to being surrounded, if you move, you won't be able to avoid opportunity attacks". Assume the character is savvy enough to avoid needless danger. Assume the character is savvy enough to be alert to ambushes.

So my problem is that outside contested checks, Perception is nigh-useless. And if that's the case, it shouldn't really be a skill. Insight contests Deception, but it also gives your character an idea of the target's mood. Acrobatics (or athletics) can counter a Grapple or Shove, but it's also balancing on a thin rope or climbing up a slick wall or tumbling through a maze of tripwires.

So here's my question. Imagine there was no perception skill. Instead, you have an Alertness Score. Like Armor, you are assumed to always be alert, and so you have a Static DC. It is build like a Passive Score. Every character is 'Proficient' in Alertness. (or maybe only Martial Characters (trained with martial weapons are proficient?). Stealth is now all about trying to beat the DC of the person you're hiding from. And this is useful to me, because "Roll Perception" is as good as saying "There's something out there, let's see if you find it".

How would this break the game? What problems do you foresee with this? What benefits would you find?

[Armored Walrus]

So here's my question. Imagine there was no perception skill. Instead, you have an Alertness Score. Like Armor, you are assumed to always be alert, and so you have a Static DC. It is build like a Passive Score. Every character is 'Proficient' in Alertness. (or maybe only Martial Characters (trained with martial weapons are proficient?). Stealth is now all about trying to beat the DC of the person you're hiding from. And this is useful to me, because "Roll Perception" is as good as saying "There's something out there, let's see if you find it".

How would this break the game? What problems do you foresee with this? What benefits would you find?

Aren't you describing Passive Perception exactly?

[Throne12]

The game already have a alert score it's called Passive perception. Which is 10+perception score.

[Contrast]

...you ask for to see if your players' characters are paying attention or not. Which is a gotcha. Of course they are paying attention. Or it's the check you ask for when you want to announce that there's something stealthing around the camp but if they roll low they have to pretend you didn't just give the whole ambush away.

Its pretty common for DMs to keep a record of their players perception scores so they can roll in secret for things like ambushes. I'm not convinced that's necessary(/even particularly effective) personally but try it out, might work for your table.

I think the key is that perception isn't a 'is your character paying attention' on/off switch. The skill is there is tell you how good any individual character is at that thing. A failure doesn't mean the character wasn't paying attention and was walking along with his eyes closed and his hands over his ears. A poor roll might just mean they happened to look left rather than right and as such missed the specific moment they could see the particular thing. A good score minimises the chance of such a thing happening but doesn't prevent it entirely.

As per posters above - what you're describing does seem to be what passive perception is. Is there something different you're looking to achieve?

[Mjolnirbear]

Yes, I worded myself badly. I'm looking to make Passive Perception or something very much like it a permanent score, and getting rid of the perception skill. Because Perception doesn't really fit with the other skills. It doesn't exactly work the same. No one makes a Perception check to say "I try to see the letters on the page in front of me". Either you see it, because it's logical for you to see it and thus I describe it, or you don't see it, because it's logical that you don't, or it's a contested roll, which is the only way it really acts like a skill.

When I attack you, I need to try to hit your AC. Your AC doesn't really (or doesn't *entirely*) reflect your 'defense skill'. It's not a skill contest. It's a DC. It's more-or-less static. I propose to officially make Perception the same thing, because you are more or less always perceiving, and even the skill contest isn't really needed.


But I'm new to homebrewing that isn't "yoink someone else's stuff". So I'm trying to see if "Perception score, ditch the skill" will break anything. If it wasn't a skill check at all, but a set DC.

[Kane0]

So you're looking to make it a secondary stat, like initiative? Should work fine, just keep in mind you wouldn't be able to apply expertise and have to rely on things like the Bard Jack of All trades to increase it. You may want to make sure you tweak the alert and/or observant feats to match.
You will have to consider if you want it to include Prof Bonus or not though, which could make a considerable difference.

[Tanarii]

Not sure what the problem is. Passive perception is the alertness score. It's how well they pay attention to threats, and it depends on Wisdom and if they took the Peception skill. Do you just want it to be a fixed value that doesn't depend on Wisdom and can't be improved by an ability score. If so, just set everything that's normally a "Passive perception" to a fixed value instead.

The way I understand it works:
If someone tries to hide from them, roll Stealth vs Passive perception. Per the Hiding sidebar under Stealth skill in the PHB.

If someone uses the Search action in combat, roll perception. Per the combat chapter. Usually used to find a creature that has previously hidden, and that'd be vs their already established Stealth roll.

If you're determining surprise due to an ambush, use Stealth vs passive perception. Per the Combat chapter.

If someone isn't doing something that prevents them using passive perception (Navigating, Tracking, Foraging or Mapping) and can see the threat (rank in marching order), and it's a secret check or they're paying attention repeatedly as they go along, use Passive perception to detect threats. Usually for perception one or both the last two are the case. Per the adventuring chapter.

If they take ten times as long to scope something in particular out and they can't fail, use automatic success per the DMG.

Technically if they're looking for something hidden and it's not a secret check and they're not doing it repeatedly as they go along (which would make it passive), it should also be a rolled Perception check, per the Finding hidden stuff sidebar in the PHB under the perception skill.

On a personal note:
On that last one, I would personal prefer if searching for something was Investigation (or more commonly Passive Investigation as a secret check) only. But I let players use Passive Investigation OR Passive Investigation to intentionally search (usually for traps) as they go along, which is both a secret check and something they're doing repeatedly. Or they can just move at 1/10 speed and auto succeed (if possible) per the DMG auto success rule. They often do the latter if they're willing to risk the random encounters.

Similarly, if they aren't taking their time to search something (tossing a room, searching bodies) and I need a check, I look at both Passive Perception and Passive Investigation when players search for something hidden. Again usually passive since it's a usually a secret check. The difference is if investigation figures something out, Sherlock Holmes style, and I give them more detailed info/hints. And perception they notice something, but need to check it out and figure it out themselves.

[Contrast]

No one makes a Perception check to say "I try to see the letters on the page in front of me". Either you see it, because it's logical for you to see it and thus I describe it, or you don't see it, because it's logical that you don't, or it's a contested roll, which is the only way it really acts like a skill.

What about if you're trying to eavesdrop on a conversation or check if the PCs notice that the ruined boulders scattered around form a particular pattern? Seems to me you could make a similar argument for many other skills being passive - your character 'always tries' to be persuasive or deceptive after all.

I don't necessarily see any particular problems with handling it all passively if you wanted to though.

[Kryx]

If you're looking to remove the perception skill then you should also remove the insight skill - that is just perception of humans. Both Perception and Insight have active and passive versions.

I think the same could apply for many skills.

[Tanarii]

For something obvious like words on a page, no check should be needed. That's a matter of deciding when something can't possible fail. (Or succeed.) That's necessary for any potential action the players do.

------------

Another thought: The one weird thing about passive checks in general is when they're vs a fixed DC. Fixed vs fixed can sometimes produce weird results, as other posters have noted in threads about passive perception in the past.

You can work around it by making it clear that taking ten times as long to search (for example) will automatically succeed if possible and there's no consequence other than time for failure.

Couple of other ways to handle that:

- if someone has already made a passive check and wants to keep trying, but not the full ten times as long due to time pressure, roll instead. That's basically the equivalent of taking the Search action in combat.

- alternatively as a table rule, DM rolls for hidden things against the passive score, as if they're actively hiding. For example, instead of traps having a fixed DC, give traps a pseudo-stealth score and roll that against passive perception.

[Armored Walrus]

Yes, I worded myself badly. I'm looking to make Passive Perception or something very much like it a permanent score, and getting rid of the perception skill. Because Perception doesn't really fit with the other skills. It doesn't exactly work the same. No one makes a Perception check to say "I try to see the letters on the page in front of me". Either you see it, because it's logical for you to see it and thus I describe it, or you don't see it, because it's logical that you don't, or it's a contested roll, which is the only way it really acts like a skill.

When I attack you, I need to try to hit your AC. Your AC doesn't really (or doesn't *entirely*) reflect your 'defense skill'. It's not a skill contest. It's a DC. It's more-or-less static. I propose to officially make Perception the same thing, because you are more or less always perceiving, and even the skill contest isn't really needed.


But I'm new to homebrewing that isn't "yoink someone else's stuff". So I'm trying to see if "Perception score, ditch the skill" will break anything. If it wasn't a skill check at all, but a set DC.

Where Perception comes in as a contested score is if someone Hides, and the character actively looks for them. It costs an Action, just like Grappling would - which would also be a contested roll.

Where it comes in as an actively rolled ability against a static DC is if the player announces, "I search the clearing for Magic MacMuffin Mushrooms." They roll, and you see if they met the DC for finding the mushrooms.

In my experience, Wisdom(Perception) is the most commonly rolled ability check. So not sure where the impulse comes from to remove it as a "useless" skill. That thought process is too far outside my actual in-play experience.

Edit: "Even the skill contest isn't really needed." So you'd propose that an enemy (or a PC) that chooses to Hide during combat would roll against the enemy's Passive Perception? (or Alertness score?) That already happens. If the Hiding character beats that number, then the Perceiver still has the option to use an Action to roll an active Wisdom(Perception) check, to potentially roll higher than their passive score, and find the Hider. You'd remove that option? Then anyone who successfully Hides can simply never be found by that character...

[Malifice]

I have a problem with Perception.

As a contested skill vs Stealth, it's amazing. It's everything an Ability Check could ask for:

"Suddenly, the goblin assassin turns Invisible. You hold your breath, listening intently, trying to find out where it is. You feel something, you're not even sure what... wait! Stale sweat and blade oil! HE'S BEHIND YOU".

But as a search tool, it sucks. Investigation is what you use when you're trying to find something out. Perception is for two things: paying attention, and being alert. How often do you ask your players "Hey, are you paying attention? Are you alert?" and they say no? OF COURSE they're alert. They are seasoned adventurers, they are always alert!

So outside contested checks, it is either That Other Investigation Check, or the check you ask for to see if your players' characters are paying attention or not. Which is a gotcha. Of course they are paying attention. Or it's the check you ask for when you want to announce that there's something stealthing around the camp but if they roll low they have to pretend you didn't just give the whole ambush away.

To me, that's like assuming your players aren't smart enough to choose a path to avoid opportunity attacks. Unless you want them to stand there for five minutes confirming every last square is free of danger, you say "Yes, you can move to avoid opportunity attacks" if that's reasonable, or warn them "Due to being surrounded, if you move, you won't be able to avoid opportunity attacks". Assume the character is savvy enough to avoid needless danger. Assume the character is savvy enough to be alert to ambushes.

So my problem is that outside contested checks, Perception is nigh-useless. And if that's the case, it shouldn't really be a skill. Insight contests Deception, but it also gives your character an idea of the target's mood. Acrobatics (or athletics) can counter a Grapple or Shove, but it's also balancing on a thin rope or climbing up a slick wall or tumbling through a maze of tripwires.

So here's my question. Imagine there was no perception skill. Instead, you have an Alertness Score. Like Armor, you are assumed to always be alert, and so you have a Static DC. It is build like a Passive Score. Every character is 'Proficient' in Alertness. (or maybe only Martial Characters (trained with martial weapons are proficient?). Stealth is now all about trying to beat the DC of the person you're hiding from. And this is useful to me, because "Roll Perception" is as good as saying "There's something out there, let's see if you find it".

How would this break the game? What problems do you foresee with this? What benefits would you find?

What do you mean they're always paying attention?

I've literally been to war, and I can assure you you patrol around for much of the time 'thumb up backside; mind in neutral'.