Murder-Hobos

[A Fat Dragon]

So, as a player, I like doing roleplay, puzzles, intrigue, and adventuring stuffs, alongside a bit of combat now and then. However, I recently learned that the majority of my main party (I play in a situation where the DM, and the party is constantly changing) consists of Murder-Hobos. Granted, I don’t mind them too much, as they’re my only friends, but it does get a bit annoying when the kill a rich character for gold, when the character is a way of giving more narration, and other things like that.

I’m not trying to say that murder-hobos are bad, but is there any way to deal with this situation?

[Cap'm Bubbles]

Well, there's always talking things out with the group. Y'know, setting expectations for what kind of game your group will have and what kind of behavior is tolerated.

There's also running an evil campaign where murder-hobo is the expected playstyle, and the RP aspects are dealing with the consequences of Johnny Law and civilization taking reprisals against your party. I've seen that work out fairly well for druids/rangers/barbarians fighting "the invading sivilized tipes takin' arr land!"

You can alsways (however impractical) try to find a group more to your interest, be it IRL or online such as play-by-post here or live on Roll20.

[Tanarii]

I was all prepared to come in and talk about how it's fine to be murderheros, who enjoy killing the bad guys (specifically) and rolling them for loot. Provided the group is okay with always taking the direct path and sometimes suffering the consequences for doing so.

But it sounds like they're actually classic murderhobos, if they're offing rich NPCs for gold. Are y'all getting off scott free doing that kind of thing, no consequences? If so it may be a problem with the DM(s) not having logical consequences for actions. Or setting the tone for the game by asking players not to make characters who do that.

Regardless, the best solution is probably talk to the group and see if you can get at least some games more oriented to the style of game you prefer. Politely and making it clear it's not an accusation against their play style preferences.

[Crgaston]

Explain to them that they killed the goose that laid the golden egg. And that in the future, it’s better to be selective about who they murder.

[A Fat Dragon]

Are y'all getting off scott free doing that kind of thing, no consequences?

Usually what happens, is that the DM will have the City Guard chase after us, y’know, do the logical thing, even though it doesn’t succeed. Our cleric is the most responsible for this (One of the guys is just simply chaotic, but reasonable. The other simply follows whatever the cleric says), he’s killed a random merchant, so he could keep his gold, and then a random NPC child to win a bet. Both times, the guard came after him, and both times, he’s managed to single-handed my (Or with minimal help) killed the guards called to action, before being able to leave and hide out in the wilds.

[Tanarii]

/ugh

Yeah, you've got a problem. There's really no easy solution to players of characters like that other than DM or peer pressure not to do it. Either politely pretty please with a cherry on top, or by laying down the group's policy as law.

[nickl_2000]

Get them a house that they own. Then they are no longer murder hobos, then they are murder homeowners.

[A Fat Dragon]

Don’t think I could do that, perhaps get them a whole apartment complex, and make them murder landlords.

But seriously, the advice is very much appreciated, thank you all.

[Gardakan]

Murder Hobos often find themselves with not real purpose. It grows incredibly boring super fast.

[Ventruenox]

There is the option of sending in a special investigator who outpowers the PC. Rich NPCs? Kids? That behaviour draws the attention of powerful adversaries. High level Vengeance Paladins come readily to mind. Maybe a victim had a family connection to a military commander. Your player gets a freaking army manhunt on the party. How will your players fare with the added survival element when they are wanted men in every town? Honest shopkeepers and innkeeper don't want that sort in their establishments, and the alarm can be quickly raised to have reinforcements Dimension Door in.

All else fails, send in the troubleshooter.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d7bafoAVEwM/Tej7DUftl2I/AAAAAAAAAck/Ajn2vCIJVXs/s1600/CthulhuPowerArmor.jpg

[oxybe]

Don’t think I could do that, perhaps get them a whole apartment complex, and make them murder landlords.

But seriously, the advice is very much appreciated, thank you all.

Obviously you want to guide them onto the path of murder-slumlords, buying out all the properties in an area as their value drops due to the rampant murder. This, in turn, allows them to raze the area and create several low-cost rent areas to be given to the sketchiest of sketchy folks, giving the PCs easy access to all the shady deals (since they will be going on in their own back yard) and should one of them skip out on rent, well, you now have a free place to rent out, an example made for the rest of the tenants and they get to keep whatever they had hidden beneath the floorboards.

Plus, would the local constabulary really go and try to rough up the bad part of town? the place that's probably called Murdersburgh in a hushed whisper?

[GlenSmash!]

I personally would hate DMing for this group.

Sicking the City Guard on the PCs? As soon as that is the "logical" thing to do in the campaign I would sit my players down and say, this isn't fun for me, something has to change or we have to part ways. I don't put my time in preparing an adventure just so you can kill NPCs and fight city guards. That is boring, if you want do that go play Skyrim.

Anyway Fat Dragon, I only think this can be solved with a discussion with the DM and players about your expectations of the game.

[FireJustice]

That all depends on expectations really.

Sometimes, people just want to relax and do some violence at the end of the day.
No large intrigues, no puzzle solving, just plain damage. And thats OK, as long everyone is on board.

There's punitive "murdery hoboing" thats happens, I think, when:

a) The DM is so enamorated with hers story/intrigue/NPC that the players revolt and start to destroy the foundations, just to mess with her.

b) The DM and the players have a fallout of something that the world is based, and resort to murder hoboing just to prove a point.
Like, its a all merchant city, and every store sell magic items. No, the average quest payment, even for high levels, is garbage.
Or, why go to the trouble of doing a quest for the rich merchant and get ONE magic item for the entire party, if you can just murder him and take all of his shop.
Or, the entire system is corrupt, nobody ever listen to the party, why bothering trying to topple it off without violence?
Or, my favorite, "the heroes guild always set up the party for failure, be witholding vital information, or giving missions that low level NPCS could do it at the eyes of DM, but in practice a high level
party struggles"

c) The DM do some puzzles that test the players and not the characters. This may sour some players and they will go for combat, where at least the rules are fair(er)

d) The DM focus too much in the roleplay of ONE player. This may sour some players and the will go for violence so no roleplay may take action.


As experience, telling someone to DO NOT DO something will make that someone wants even more. The best way isn't to condem a murder-hobo way of life, but to offer a more satisfactory alternative.

[Lord8Ball]

Don't stop at guards. Set a bounty up for them since they are murdering wantonly. From there you can get another party of leveled characters hunting them down or an angry mob with pitchforks and torches chasing them out of the town. The more they do it the higher noteriety they gain and more attention the party has on themselves. It could eventually lead to the point where some diviners and a portion of the army gets called out to deal with this problem. You could also transition this to an evil campaign based on their actions where dark entities or groups offer power and loot for their services since they are really into murder.

[A Fat Dragon]

It’s not that the DM is too strict, but rather is that they are very loose, and don’t really have the time to deal with murder-hobos it seems. I’ve played with DMs who blatantly complain about the Murder-Hobos, and they don’t bat an eye at it. One DM cut out the entire story of a dungeon that he built, simply because he didn’t want to have to deal with the murder-hobos probably trying to kill an important character.

[Sigreid]

Could always murder them in their sleep and when the characters complain say 'look at all this wealth I got. Isn't that the game you wanted to play?'
😈

[Jiece18]

Keep track of all the "evil" things they are doing and have the world respond in kind. Build an opposing party of heroes who came together to stop them, as long as it is a fair challenge. Don't make the opposing group over powered.

I DM'd a game with a group similarly. Every time they did something horrible, I made a note of it and created an opponent that reflected that. For example, the group killed a gold dragon for its hoard rather than accept the quest it was offering. So I created a half-gold dragon fighter that hunted the party down for murdering its parent. The fighter ran across the wife of a merchant that the group likewise killed for loot and got some good items to aid him in his quest. Also he was joined by a small mercenary band who had been hired by a town the party had ravaged. By the time the party encountered the fighter, they got to experience the consequences of their actions. A good encounter that had been built up across several sessions. Never had a murder-hobo issue since.

[MaxWilson]

Get them a house that they own. Then they are no longer murder hobos, then they are murder homeowners.

I'm not sure if you're joking, but this is actually pretty good advice for a DM. Give them something to protect, whether it's a house, or a noble estate that generates 1000 gp in profits per month. Something that they will want to keep...

...so you can threaten to take it away, as an adventure hook. ("Oh no, you've been hearing rumors of missing persons on your estate, and weird caches of eggs and bio-goo. Some of your servants have been acting strangely, and one of them, a gardener, had been missing for two days when someone found his body floating under the dock. His brain was missing. You just got the report from your steward. He looks scared. How do you feel and what do you do?")

Basically you are exploiting loss aversion.

[nickl_2000]

I'm not sure if you're joking, but this is actually pretty good advice for a DM. Give them something to protect, whether it's a house, or a noble estate that generates 1000 gp in profits per month. Something that they will want to keep...

...so you can threaten to take it away, as an adventure hook. ("Oh no, you've been hearing rumors of missing persons on your estate, and weird caches of eggs and bio-goo. Some of your servants have been acting strangely, and one of them, a gardener, had been missing for two days when someone found his body floating under the dock. His brain was missing. You just got the report from your steward. He looks scared. How do you feel and what do you do?")

Basically you are exploiting loss aversion.

While it happens to be decent advice (you know, because you expanded it and made it so), it's a joke told fairly often at my table. There was a lot of really, really good advice in posts before me, so I thought it was time to tell a joke or two :smallbiggrin:

[Throne12]

Who is the clerics god. And why do he still hover power.

[zinycor]

The thing is different groups work in different ways.

My group of friends normally take the narrative on D&D way less seriously, normally focusing on having a good time and doing whatever. D&D is mostly an excuse to get together once a week, get a few beers and laugh around.

While i have another group of people that I mostly see in order to play Role playing games or similar activities. This makes it so the compromise to the narrative and acting way more in character.

You could try to do this, don't be afraid to meet new people n order to just go and play DnD (or whatever game you are playing), it can be very refreshing to focus on the game itself or just leaving a table if you don't like how things are going, no hard feelings.

[Tanarii]

In terms of escalation as a player with such a player in your group, another option is to tell the DM you're going to the city guard and telling them you know where to find the murderhobo character, for a big enough reward. Point out to the DM "it's what my good aligned character would do." Don't forget to bring in the rest of the party for a share of the reward.

But let's be clear, that's an escalation. OTOH if they can disrupt your fun by being an asshat villain in a game that wasn't clearly advertised as such, it's fair game to disrupt theirs by being an asshat heroic character in response.

[zinycor]

In terms of escalation as a player with such a player in your group, another option is to tell the DM you're going to the city guard and telling them you know where to find the murderhobo character, for a big enough reward. Point out to the DM "it's what my good aligned character would do." Don't forget to bring in the rest of the party for a share of the reward.

But let's be clear, that's an escalation. OTOH if they can disrupt your fun by being an asshat villain in a game that wasn't clearly advertised as such, it's fair game to disrupt theirs by being an asshat heroic character in response.

I consider this to be the worst advise for the situation... Unless your group is focused on PvP this can absolutely destroy your campaign. If your group IS focused on PvP or has a good amount of it, then go for it. If not, thread carefully, better to just be honest to your friends and tell them that you don't like their murderhobo ways than trying to ruin their fun in game under the excuse of: "Hey! Am just playing my character!!"

[Tanarii]

I consider this to be the worst advise for the situation... Unless your group is focused on PvP this can absolutely destroy your campaign. If your group IS focused on PvP or has a good amount of it, then go for it. If not, thread carefully, better to just be honest to your friends and tell them that you don't like their murderhobo ways than trying to ruin their fun in game under the excuse of: "Hey! Am just playing my character!!"
Generally speaking I agree. Talk first.

But if there is already another player/friend is destroying the campaign by "just playing their character" by murderhobo-ing to the point they are playing a disruptive Villain, and the DM is condoning it ... why not?

[zinycor]

Generally speaking I agree. Talk first.

But if there is already another player/friend is destroying the campaign by "just playing their character" by murderhobo-ing to the point they are playing a disruptive Villain, and the DM is condoning it ... why not?

Because if you go and kill the entire population of a country of NPCs maybe someone could get annoyed at the consecuenses. If you act against another player by hitting them, then you are going against another player. In this context, mass genocide can't really hurt anyone's feelings (unless personal circumstances are in play), acting against other PCs might.

[Tanarii]

Because if you go and kill the entire population of a country of NPCs maybe someone could get annoyed at the consecuenses. If you act against another player by hitting them, then you are going against another player. In this context, mass genocide can't really hurt anyone's feelings (unless personal circumstances are in play), acting against other PCs might. There's not something especially sacrosanct about PvP that makes it some kind of higher-order disruption.

[zinycor]

There's not something especially sacrosanct about PvP that makes it some kind of higher-order disruption.

Isn't there? Most of the problems that I have seen on my tables or known of otrher tables have come from instances of some way of PvP at the table that wasn't agreed before the fact.

Now if your table likes to PvP knock yourself out with it, and you will have a great time. But if that hasn't been previously stated, PvP can be a great problem.

Now that's just my view, your experience may have led you to think otherwise, but I have left tables based on the way that PvP was handled.

[GlenSmash!]

There's not something especially sacrosanct about PvP that makes it some kind of higher-order disruption.

Yup, while I have had players immature enough to take PvP personally (heck, I've been one) that doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. Some players love it.

However as a DM I dislike PvP. I don't spend time prepping a campaign just to have Players ignore it and fight among themselves. Plenty of video games can give them that experience.

So in my sessions 0s I make it plain to the players that their characters are people that go into life and death situations together and while they don't have to like each other (in fact rivalries are encouraged) you are expected to work together. But that's just my table.

[Tanarii]

Isn't there? Most of the problems that I have seen on my tables or known of otrher tables have come from instances of some way of PvP at the table that wasn't agreed before the fact.
We're talking about someone already disrupting the game for you (as a player) and your PC (in world).

So no, pvp isnt a higher order disruption. Its the same.

Its not the best option, of course. IMO Its definitely after both:
Making clear to DM and other player they are disrupting your game;
And leaving the game.

But people were already recommending ways to escalate instead of those. So i joined in.

[zinycor]

We're talking about someone already disrupting the game for you (as a player) and your PC (in world).

So no, pvp isnt a higher order disruption. Its the same.


I guess I don't see Murder-Hoboing on the same level of game disrupting as PvP, but that might just be me.

[GlenSmash!]

I guess I don't see Murder-Hoboing on the same level of game disrupting as PvP, but that might just be me.

It's probably not just you, but it's also not universally a given either.

All sorts of people play the game in all sorts of different ways.

[ZorroGames]

I guess I don't see Murder-Hoboing on the same level of game disrupting as PvP, but that might just be me.

Well, if it is disrupting the game; you have had “the talk”; the DM is good with the talk failing to change the disruptive atmosphere; and the OP feels he can’t leave - which I do not understand but I am not there - then I do not see a solution.

[zinycor]

Well, if it is disrupting the game; you have had “the talk”; the DM is good with the talk failing to change the disruptive atmosphere; and the OP feels he can’t leave - which I do not understand but I am not there - then I do not see a solution.

The OP doesn't want to leave because he is playing with his real life friends.

I think the solution is that if the other players don't want (or can't) change their ways and you still want to play with them. Just accept it, and play with them enjoying the other aspects that you can still enjoy (like the jokes at the table, and their company).

Meanwhile join another gaming group in order to focus on the game itself and if that group fails you can leave with no hard feelings.

[Tanarii]

I guess I don't see Murder-Hoboing on the same level of game disrupting as PvP, but that might just be me.
Depends what you mean by the term. But in this case we were apparently discussing a classic villain murderhobo "kill NPCs for gold, drag the law down on the PCs, and take away game time for all that personal time the DM needs to spend focused on you and your antics.

I'd find that a huge disruption if i had made a character to go do heroic adventures. If I was playing a game of Clever Villains I'd probably find it irritatingly clumsy or stupid.

Basically its disruptive in any game thats not one of those terrible sandboxes that start in town and have no immediate adventure hooks. Those games a villain murderhobo is just pointing out to the DM how boring it is. :p

[Mister_Squinty]

Usually what happens, is that the DM will have the City Guard chase after us, y’know, do the logical thing, even though it doesn’t succeed. Our cleric is the most responsible for this (One of the guys is just simply chaotic, but reasonable. The other simply follows whatever the cleric says), he’s killed a random merchant, so he could keep his gold, and then a random NPC child to win a bet. Both times, the guard came after him, and both times, he’s managed to single-handed my (Or with minimal help) killed the guards called to action, before being able to leave and hide out in the wilds.

You know, when a band of murderous thieves threaten a city, killing the guards, robbing the populace and such, many cities will hire a band of adventurers to track down and stop them. If the party wants to be openly evil, society will treat them as such.

[zinycor]

Depends what you mean by the term. But in this case we were apparently discussing a classic villain murderhobo "kill NPCs for gold, drag the law down on the PCs, and take away game time for all that personal time the DM needs to spend focused on you and your antics.

I'd find that a huge disruption if i had made a character to go do heroic adventures. If I was playing a game of Clever Villains I'd probably find it irritatingly clumsy or stupid.

Basically its disruptive in any game thats not one of those terrible sandboxes that start in town and have no immediate adventure hooks. Those games a villain murderhobo is just pointing out to the DM how boring it is. :p

As i read the OP it seems to me that is not A player that is doing these things, but many (if not all) of the other players.

[ZorroGames]

I do have empathy with the OP’s situation.

Right now I have an AL coplayer who kept telling me to use Sacred Flame instead of melee despite my no save needed melee created damage equalling or exceeding spell damage, who kept trying to tell me I needed to “heal” his Conquest Paladin in melee without using any of his own resources out of melee while we were both the only 2 players of 7 that were not hiding behind the refrain of “but I am squishy” when the AC and HPs were about the same as ours, and who ended up insulting me by saying OOC during the end game that I was playing “weird” (not to his desires) while always saying “... but that is what my character would do...” to excuse his bullying the new players and new DM when group decisions are not to his likings/desires.

I see a problem building and the “Get your head out of... 3rd edition and let me play my 5e character as designed... “ conversation might sadly happen in game some time soon because he refuses to talk because he insists I am “... simply playing the character wrong and need to change.”

So sometimes, OP, you need to choose to either move on or accept that some behaviors are just not going to change.

Hope you can get satisfaction with your current group after an open and politely honest conversation.

[zinycor]

You know, when a band of murderous thieves threaten a city, killing the guards, robbing the populace and such, many cities will hire a band of adventurers to track down and stop them. If the party wants to be openly evil, society will treat them as such.

My evil campaign was just like that, The GM sending us party after party of good aligned characters :D, It was hella fun.

[GlenSmash!]

As i read the OP it seems to me that is not A player that is doing these things, but many (if not all) of the other players.

Sometimes players just think that is how they are supposed to play, after seeing one particular player instigate over and over. Not sure if that is the case here though.

[GlenSmash!]

I do have empathy with the OP’s situation.

Right now I have an AL coplayer who kept telling me to use Sacred Flame instead of melee despite my no save needed melee created damage equalling or exceeding spell damage, who kept trying to tell me I needed to “heal” his Conquest Paladin in melee without using any of his own resources out of melee while we were both the only 2 players of 7 that were not hiding behind the refrain of “but I am squishy” when the AC and HPs were about the same as ours, and who ended up insulting me by saying OOC during the end game that I was playing “weird” (not to his desires) while always saying “... but that is what my character would do...” to excuse his bullying the new players and new DM when group decisions are not to his likings/desires.

I see a problem building and the “Get your head out of... 3rd edition and let me play my 5e character as designed... “ conversation might sadly happen in game some time soon because he refuses to talk because he insists I am “... simply playing the character wrong and need to change.”

So sometimes, OP, you need to choose to either move on or accept that some behaviors are just not going to change.

Hope you can get satisfaction with your current group after an open and politely honest conversation.

Yikes. Have you spoken to the DM or event organizer about it?

[zinycor]

I do have empathy with the OP’s situation.

Right now I have an AL coplayer who kept telling me to use Sacred Flame instead of melee despite my no save needed melee created damage equalling or exceeding spell damage, who kept trying to tell me I needed to “heal” his Conquest Paladin in melee without using any of his own resources out of melee while we were both the only 2 players of 7 that were not hiding behind the refrain of “but I am squishy” when the AC and HPs were about the same as ours, and who ended up insulting me by saying OOC during the end game that I was playing “weird” (not to his desires) while always saying “... but that is what my character would do...” to excuse his bullying the new players and new DM when group decisions are not to his likings/desires.

I see a problem building and the “Get your head out of... 3rd edition and let me play my 5e character as designed... “ conversation might sadly happen in game some time soon because he refuses to talk because he insists I am “... simply playing the character wrong and need to change.”

So sometimes, OP, you need to choose to either move on or accept that some behaviors are just not going to change.

Hope you can get satisfaction with your current group after an open and politely honest conversation.

I really don't see the connection between the 2 cases, in the OP case he is playing with his friends who are playing very violent characters which
does get a bit annoying , what you experienced is way more extreme, there you dealing with a guy that is being an absolute ******* whose behaviour you should not tolerate (not in a game or in other aspects of life).

[Tanarii]

As i read the OP it seems to me that is not A player that is doing these things, but many (if not all) of the other players.
He followed up by explaining it was one guy, with another guy who just goes along with the first guy.

If most of the players are enjoying something I'm not, clearly I'm in the wrong game. And anything I do in response will mean I'm the one being disruptive. :smallwink:

[zinycor]

He followed up by explaining it was one guy, with another guy who just goes along with the first guy.

If most of the players are enjoying something I'm not, clearly I'm in the wrong game. And anything I do in response will mean I'm the one being disruptive. :smallwink:

Exactly! And why would you want to be disruptive on a game that you are playing with your friends?

[willdaBEAST]

Who is the clerics god. And why do he still hover power.

This is a good question. If the Cleric's god is neutral or good, killing a child is probably not going to fly.

[A Fat Dragon]

The Cleric originally was Evil (Hence the Grave Domain, but in general Grave Domain is fantastic IMO), but because of some weird minor God’s of trickery, he was turned good.

His patron before was The God of The Hunt (Belethor, I believe), as he originally was an evil life-Domain cleric, but then he realized that the Grave Domain suited him better, and everybody agreed, so we let him switched. Not sure if he still worships the same god, I’m going to guess so.

[Tanarii]

The Cleric originally was Evil (Hence the Grave Domain, but in general Grave Domain is fantastic IMO), but because of some weird minor God’s of trickery, he was turned good.

His patron before was The God of The Hunt (Belethor, I believe), as he originally was an evil life-Domain cleric, but then he realized that the Grave Domain suited him better, and everybody agreed, so we let him switched. Not sure if he still worships the same god, I’m going to guess so.
Yeah, that's a LOT more complicated than I was envisioning it. You guys definitely need to have a talk about what's acceptable and what's disruptive in this campaign. :smallwink:

[zinycor]

The Cleric originally was Evil (Hence the Grave Domain, but in general Grave Domain is fantastic IMO), but because of some weird minor God’s of trickery, he was turned good.

His patron before was The God of The Hunt (Belethor, I believe), as he originally was an evil life-Domain cleric, but then he realized that the Grave Domain suited him better, and everybody agreed, so we let him switched. Not sure if he still worships the same god, I’m going to guess so.

Are the others also evil? How new are you and the others to DnD?

[A Fat Dragon]

I am new, been playing for about 6 months. The other guys have been playing about 4 years I believe. I generally play neutral and good characters (Ironically, my favorite character is an assassin, and I prefer using them for intrigue), and the rest of the party is actually good. I think our monk may be neutral, as he does understand that he is a murder-hobo (He’s the most reasonable however). Our ranger just kind of follows the cleric, and the cleric murders everybody for personal gain.

I think fighting him is out of the option, as he’s had the character for as long as I’ve played, and he’s got a plethora of legendary stuff. I don’t have anything on my characters (Besides a Tome of the Stilled Tongue, and a Iron Flask, but I haven’t bothered to make a Wizard yet).

[zinycor]

I am new, been playing for about 6 months. The other guys have been playing about 4 years I believe. I generally play neutral and good characters (Ironically, my favorite character is an assassin, and I prefer using them for intrigue), and the rest of the party is actually good. I think our monk may be neutral, as he does understand that he is a murder-hobo (He’s the most reasonable however). Our ranger just kind of follows the cleric, and the cleric murders everybody for personal gain.

I think fighting him is out of the option, as he’s had the character for as long as I’ve played, and he’s got a plethora of legendary stuff. I don’t have anything on my characters (Besides a Tome of the Stilled Tongue, and a Iron Flask, but I haven’t bothered to make a Wizard yet).

Don't try fighting him, that would only escalate the problem even if you manage to beat him. My suggestion is talk to him like a friend, explain to him that you are not enjoying the way that he goes around killing NPCs that could offer interesting situations in the future.

Also try talking to the whole group and ask if maybe starting a new campaign could be possible, maybe give this campaign some conclusion or temporary stop in order to start again. Because if this character has gotten like this playing like that (what level are you and the others? and what are the legendary items?) it's very possible that He won't change the way that He's playing with this character, but a new character may be different.

Otherwise, play with them and enjoy their company as friends, but a find another group that is more willing to play seriously.

[Malifice]

Usually what happens, is that the DM will have the City Guard chase after us, y’know, do the logical thing, even though it doesn’t succeed. Our cleric is the most responsible for this (One of the guys is just simply chaotic, but reasonable. The other simply follows whatever the cleric says), he’s killed a random merchant, so he could keep his gold, and then a random NPC child to win a bet.

He's murdered a man for no other reason than robbery, and also murdered a child in cold blood to win a bet?

These PCs are evily aligned right? Actually no, **** it. Dont answer that question.

Any reason this wealthy merchant doesnt have connections? Wealthy connections that have him raised, he spills the beans on who done-it and hires some heavy hitting NPCs to get the PCs? He (or the company he works for) hires some adventurers to kill the evil bastard who murdered him?


Both times, the guard came after him, and both times, he’s managed to single-handed my (Or with minimal help) killed the guards called to action, before being able to leave and hide out in the wilds.

Hes now a child murderer, and a cop killer?

What on earth is the local Lord doing? Why isnt he sending his best people after this PC? You know; a force lead by the court Wizard [Evoker] head of the local goodly Church [War priest] and a patrol of his finest guard [1 x Warlord, 2 x Knights, 4 x Veterans and 20 x Guard] and a few [Scouts].

Plus hiring goodly aligned NPC adventurers to deal with the PC.

[Malifice]

the rest of the party is actually good

They're murdering children to win bets, killing cops and engaging in robbery.

On what planet are these PCs good?

[A Fat Dragon]

It’s mostly the cleric who does this. The Ranger is basically his lackey, and the monk is.. well, drunken monk fits him well.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't mind Mal, he gets on these rants ... alignment sets him off. :smallcool:

Murder Hobo is a playstyle. If everyone at the table is on board with it, good, have fun.

If everyone at the table is not good with it, Stop Playing!
You all need to discuss what kind of game you are going to play to have fun.
Get On The Same Page.
Once you have sorted that out, then Start Playing!

[Angelalex242]

Cleric is devoted to which god, again? Which good aligned god?

[A Fat Dragon]

Not sure, I’d have to ask them. I think it’s the god of the hunt (Belethor I think his name was)

[zinycor]

He's murdered a man for no other reason than robbery, and also murdered a child in cold blood to win a bet?

These PCs are evily aligned right? Actually no, **** it. Dont answer that question.

Any reason this wealthy merchant doesnt have connections? Wealthy connections that have him raised, he spills the beans on who done-it and hires some heavy hitting NPCs to get the PCs? He (or the company he works for) hires some adventurers to kill the evil bastard who murdered him?



Hes now a child murderer, and a cop killer?

What on earth is the local Lord doing? Why isnt he sending his best people after this PC? You know; a force lead by the court Wizard [Evoker] head of the local goodly Church [War priest] and a patrol of his finest guard [1 x Warlord, 2 x Knights, 4 x Veterans and 20 x Guard] and a few [Scouts].

Plus hiring goodly aligned NPC adventurers to deal with the PC.

Do you realize that you are not talking to the GM?

[Angelalex242]

This is probably a god for murderhobos.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dolor_(5e_Deity)

[Akolyte01]

I consider this to be the worst advise for the situation... Unless your group is focused on PvP this can absolutely destroy your campaign. If your group IS focused on PvP or has a good amount of it, then go for it. If not, thread carefully, better to just be honest to your friends and tell them that you don't like their murderhobo ways than trying to ruin their fun in game under the excuse of: "Hey! Am just playing my character!!"

Could retire the character when you do that (since they're basically leaving the party with that action anyway) then you roll an evil character to join instead and deal with the consequences of the party's newfound infamy

[Malifice]

It’s mostly the cleric who does this.

With all the murder he's done (children, wealthy merchants, cops etc) is there any reason why he doesnt have a bounty on his head of huge proportions?

Ever played Baldurs Gate and had your reputation drop too low? You know how the Flaming Fist teleport in [pre-buffed] and proceed to kick your ass every half hour or so?

Do that.

Like why on earth hasnt the local [Baron] sent word to [The King] notifying him that a powerful evil priest is running around murdering people, and the [Baron] seems to be able to do nothing? Considering [the Baron] has tens of thousands of gold in the treasury to hire NPC adventurers or Assasins etc to stop the Cleric, in addition to his own men (Warlords, Knights, Mages, Champions, Priests etc)?

TL;DR. Your DM sucks at his job.

[Malifice]

Do you realize that you are not talking to the GM?

In that case; leave the campaign and the group.

The DM sucks.

[A Fat Dragon]

Yes, I do realize this. My problem, is that the GM always switches whenever I play. So far however, there’s been three consistent DMs: The first one is the first DM I ever played with, and just went along with the campaign, even though there was the whole everybody being murdered. He did a fantastic job of doing so, so I’m happy with him. The second DM just cut out the story-line of a dungeon crawl, as he didn’t much want to deal with important NPCs being killed for no reason. I liked him, as he understood what I was going through, and went out of his way to give me bits of intrigue and small puzzles for the sake of me wanting to do as such.

The third... Here’s where things get tricky. The third DM is my least favorite. I like the guy, but there’s one huge, huge problem: He’s a bit younger than us. Granted, it’s quite alright as he does his job well and understands the game. It’d be even better if we didn’t know the guy as a friend, but... Well, we do, and he’s always looking for the approval of (you guessed it) the whole party, but most importantly, the cleric in our group. I have little say, because I’m the outlier in this equation: I don’t know the guy on a personal level like the rest of my party, and that creates an alienation effect between the two of us.

This would be fine, except for the fact that our DM has been more and more commonly been the third DM, rather than the first two. And, we’ve been seeing less and less of random strangers joining in the party. Generally, the strangers are more focused on the story-line, and help reduce the severity of the Murder-Hobos, while helping to keep us focused, thinking, and (In my case) having fun.

I’m not saying that the murder-hobos ruin the fun. If anything, I can work pretty well with our monk, it’s just the problem of our cleric, and our third dm. I like the cleric, and it generally makes me uncomfortable to talk about him in such an ill light, but I’m simply trying to find a way to make sure I can have fun with them.

[zinycor]

Sorry but... you had 3 GMs running the same campaign?

[Malifice]

I’m not saying that the murder-hobos ruin the fun. If anything, I can work pretty well with our monk, it’s just the problem of our cleric, and our third dm. I like the cleric, and it generally makes me uncomfortable to talk about him in such an ill light, but I’m simply trying to find a way to make sure I can have fun with them.

Murder him and take his gold.

[zinycor]

In that case; leave the campaign and the group.

The DM sucks.

Didn't you read that the OP plays with his friends?

[A Fat Dragon]

They each run different campaigns, but we keep our characters through each one.

Basically, I play at a sort of gamer’s grotto on a college campus.

[zinycor]

They each run different campaigns, but we keep our characters through each one.

Basically, I play at a sort of gamer’s grotto on a college campus.

Wow, that seems awful. Sorry for that dude.

As an advice, play at only one of those campaigns if you REALLY want to continue to play with these guys and find another table to play without these awful commitments. A normal table xD.

[Malifice]

Didn't you read that the OP plays with his friends?

So what?

I wont play a game with friends that isnt any fun.

[Moxxmix]

This would be fine, except for the fact that our DM has been more and more commonly been the third DM, rather than the first two. And, we’ve been seeing less and less of random strangers joining in the party. Generally, the strangers are more focused on the story-line, and help reduce the severity of the Murder-Hobos, while helping to keep us focused, thinking, and (In my case) having fun.
That sounds like the murderhobos are making things un-fun for both the other GMs, and anyone else who might have been interested in playing. As word gets around, people will just avoid the group. That's a long, slow slide downward, as the murderhobos basically force everyone else out.

What I would do is ask your favorite GM if they'd be willing to start an entirely new campaign (possibly even a different game system, but certainly something that will allow heavy penalties for the murderhobo behavior), and start fresh, 1st level characters. Nothing from the previous game allowed. And avoid going to the games with the third GM if he's tolerating/encouraging the cleric's behavior.

Basically, set up something where you can more easily get strangers to join, and hopefully not feel like a place they don't want to come back to. Expand the playgroup, and keep a handle on excessive behavior from the start, and it should work out better.

Worst case scenario: You start up a game. Pick up something entirely new and get your feet wet. Even if it's just a couple others, such as the other GMs (in fact, it's probably better that way), grab something much more strongly suited to your own interests. Mage, Call of Cthulhu, Deadlands, Castle Falkenstein, Space 1889, etc. It won't be easy, but the main point is to shake up the dynamic. Even if it's just a month or two of you being in the hot seat, it makes it easier to ask the other GMs to try another, different game after that.

[GlenSmash!]

So what?

I wont play a game with friends that isnt any fun.

Sometimes good friends make lousy D&D companions. Which is not surprising. Some friends make a lousy kickball team, some a lousy study group, some lousy co-workers, some lousy roommates, etc.

[Shulk]

Need to deal with murderhobos? Send a police force at them, if a normal city guard isn't enough, start giving the guard classes, stats, proficiencies, high perception, add in mages, crown paladins, and if that's not enough, make unique individuals who are of a significantly higher level than the murder hobos, and if they keep doing it, make a few of those guys who will never stop hunting down, or, if all else fails, make goddamn superjavert or something, that fails to stop them? Send in wizard colleges and assassins, armies, and if they keep killing despite everyone else trying to stop them? Shift their alignment, get the gods involved and possibly quite pissed. And if that somehow fails? Send in level 17 monks of the open palm, with no hesitation to spam quivering palm, or javertasque, the entity which is the law abiding and enforcing spirit of javert, and the everything else of a tarrasque.

[Angelalex242]

Need to deal with murderhobos? Send a police force at them, if a normal city guard isn't enough, start giving the guard classes, stats, proficiencies, high perception, add in mages, crown paladins, and if that's not enough, make unique individuals who are of a significantly higher level than the murder hobos, and if they keep doing it, make a few of those guys who will never stop hunting down, or, if all else fails, make goddamn superjavert or something, that fails to stop them? Send in wizard colleges and assassins, armies, and if they keep killing despite everyone else trying to stop them? Shift their alignment, get the gods involved and possibly quite pissed. And if that somehow fails? Send in level 17 monks of the open palm, with no hesitation to spam quivering palm, or javertasque, the entity which is the law abiding and enforcing spirit of javert, and the everything else of a tarrasque.

At that point, it's easier and less complicated to say, "Rocks fall, you all die."

[Shulk]

At that point, it's easier and less complicated to say, "Rocks fall, you all die."
It's nowhere near as fun to do that though. Also, if you're a player, get some lawful good people in, maybe some crown paladins in the party. Rocks fall everyone dies is boring and unoriginal. Having everyone Pissed off? More fun. Pissing off the gods? More fun for the dm.

[ErHo]

Usually what happens, is that the DM will have the City Guard chase after us, y’know, do the logical thing, even though it doesn’t succeed. Our cleric is the most responsible for this (One of the guys is just simply chaotic, but reasonable. The other simply follows whatever the cleric says), he’s killed a random merchant, so he could keep his gold, and then a random NPC child to win a bet. Both times, the guard came after him, and both times, he’s managed to single-handed my (Or with minimal help) killed the guards called to action, before being able to leave and hide out in the wilds.

Sounds like your players really just want to play "GTA 9; Dungeons & Dragons"

[Shulk]

Sounds like your players really just want to play "GTA 9; Dungeons & Dragons"

This is what happens when you have chaotic neutral and evil characters.

[GlenSmash!]

This is what happens when you have chaotic neutral and evil characters.

I've played and run for players that were both CN and Evil without this happening.

To me it's what happens when you play with immature players. And for my group it was corrected with a discussion on what everyone at the table wanted out of the game.

It turned out that some new players thought that was how it was supposed to be player, and were pleasantly surprised when shown a different path.

Edit: I thought I'd add right now all the players in my game are Good and will be for the foreseeable future. It looks to be a long campaign.

[Sigreid]

I've played and run for players that were both CN and Evil without this happening.

To me it's what happens when you play with immature players. And for my group it was corrected with a discussion on what everyone at the table wanted out of the game.

It turned out that some new players thought that was how it was supposed to be player, and were pleasantly surprised when shown a different path.

On occasion I've gone down this dark road when I've been too bored for too long.

[Shulk]

If someone's murderhoboing, there are multiple causes. Maybe the murderhobo is new or a dwarf fortress player, or immature, or just extremely bored, maybe the campaigns become boring. Maybe the party isn't holding them back enough. Sometimes a party has to put someone on timeout.

[Tanarii]

If someone's murderhoboing, there are multiple causes. Maybe the murderhobo is new or a dwarf fortress player, or immature, or just extremely bored, maybe the campaigns become boring. Maybe the party isn't holding them back enough. Sometimes a party has to put someone on timeout.
Maybe the entire group is enjoying it. I've played at plenty of tables that the entire table is happy to off important NPCs just because he looked at them funny, or he was clearly rich.

Although personally I find that far more fun when you end up facing consequences for your actions: typically being chased by the law, get a price slapped on your head, and have to hobo it over to the next city to start again. And eventually it all catches up with you in the form of bounty hunters.

Murderheroing, murderhoboing, playing intelligent villains, and murder-villain-ing are all fine if everyone at the table is up for it. Even PvP. It's when it's disruptive to what the majority of the table wants that it's a problem for the table. And when it's disruptive for what one individual wants they're at the wrong table.

(Speaking generally. My initial impression fro this thread was it was one disruptive player with another following along among a large group of players. But now I'm not so sure.)

[A Fat Dragon]

I’m fine with one of my friends, the monk, as he typically does it within reason: Random traveler out in the wilds who nobody will miss? He might take the guy out, rob him blind, and be gone before anybody bats an eye. He’ll stick to a story-line, but not pay too much attention, as he has enough fun simply screwing around with enemies. If anything, I like our monk, as he’s simply just fun to be around.

When it comes to our Cleric: Rich dude and also noble of a city, who has a possibly magical item (And is actually a tiny bit important) He’s dead, no reason, and the guards? They’re dead too. He has no regard to the story-line, and focuses on gaining more power for himself, and making his character invulnerable, while being able to 1-shot everybody (not just NPCs) else. But, perhaps I’m a bit biased, as he seems to always want my characters dead for no discernible reason.

[MadBear]

Step 1: Talk with them ooc

Step 2: well, if the DM really wants to do this in character, this could be a really fun 1-shot.

When they come in for the night, have the DM hand them character sheets for a high level party (3-4 levels above your PC's level). Sit them down, and say that you really wanted to run a fun 1-shot investigation style game this evening.

Don't lay on the clues of what this really is too quick, but slowly introduce that these are PC's hired to kill a band of maraudering psychopaths who kill with reckless abandon, and then retreat into the wilderness. It's the job of the PC's to catch these killers and bring them in for trial. Some might catch on, but it's likely if you don't lay it on too thick, that this is just a who-dun-it 1-shot. Then, when they finally catch the PC's, return them their original characters, take the pre-gen characters and engage in an epic death/capture scene where the PC's are slaughtered/captured by these individuals.

Then point out, that this is the obvious recourse of what rich people do when you kill them for no good reason.

[zinycor]

When it comes to our Cleric: Rich dude and also noble of a city, who has a possibly magical item (And is actually a tiny bit important) He’s dead, no reason, and the guards? They’re dead too. He has no regard to the story-line, and focuses on gaining more power for himself, and making his character invulnerable, while being able to 1-shot everybody (not just NPCs) else. But, perhaps I’m a bit biased, as he seems to always want my characters dead for no discernible reason.

(emphasis mine)

WHAT?! WTF is That?! Don't stand for that dude, Talk to him and the other players and GMs, you should not tolerate such a conduct. Attacking NPCs is fine and is all fun and giggles, but wanting another PC dead?!!!, That should not be tolerated at the table.

How close are you to the guy that plays the cleric?

[A Fat Dragon]

Pretty well. I see him on an almost daily basis, though we don’t really talk with each other outside of the game.

[zinycor]

Pretty well. I see him on an almost daily basis, though we don’t really talk with each other outside of the game.

And have you said to him that you don't like that he wants to kill your character?

[A Fat Dragon]

Several times. He says that “Well, If you’d play more support-orientated characters, perhaps I wouldn’t kill you.”

Or something like that. It’s the reason why I was stuck playing a Kobold Artificer who was more focused on support, than damaging and controlling enemies. (The character was intitially made for debuffing and damaging)

[Shulk]

I’m fine with one of my friends, the monk, as he typically does it within reason: Random traveler out in the wilds who nobody will miss? He might take the guy out, rob him blind, and be gone before anybody bats an eye. He’ll stick to a story-line, but not pay too much attention, as he has enough fun simply screwing around with enemies. If anything, I like our monk, as he’s simply just fun to be around.

When it comes to our Cleric: Rich dude and also noble of a city, who has a possibly magical item (And is actually a tiny bit important) He’s dead, no reason, and the guards? They’re dead too. He has no regard to the story-line, and focuses on gaining more power for himself, and making his character invulnerable, while being able to 1-shot everybody (not just NPCs) else. But, perhaps I’m a bit biased, as he seems to always want my characters dead for no discernible reason.

Are you sure that guy isn't the dnd version of old man Henderson, but worse?

[A Fat Dragon]

He’s charismatic, I’m not.

[zinycor]

Several times. He says that “Well, If you’d play more support-orientated characters, perhaps I wouldn’t kill you.”

Or something like that. It’s the reason why I was stuck playing a Kobold Artificer who was more focused on support, than damaging and controlling enemies. (The character was intitially made for debuffing and damaging)

Wow... seriously... don't play with this dude xD, if you go to someone and say to him that he is doing somehting that bothers you, and his answer is something so dismissive... I can tell you I wouldn't call him a friend.

He seems like the kind of person that likes to be the protagonist in the worst way possible.

If I were you I would just find anothr group to play with or start my own.

[zinycor]

He’s charismatic, I’m not.

So what? If the others don't acknowledge the problem just leave.

[UnderwaterAir]

In a game I was DMing my party meets up with a ranger girl who asks them to pay a toll to pass through the forest.
They refused and instead tried to fight her. She attacked with a few Conjure Volleys from herself and her concealed ranger friends.

The entire party gets decimated easily and through lucky rolls the wizard remains to teleport us out.

The group's immediate response was to go back and find the bandit group and kill them all, especially the ranger girl.

The local villager claims that the ranger girl and her group were just disgruntled young men and women that ran off to the mountains to stake their own living and attack the lord's trade and tax caravans as rebellion against the unfair taxation and exploitation of the villagers. If the heroes killed the ranger girl and her group they would immediately lose the support of the villagers against the evil baron.

They can go murder-hoboing if they want. Then they're the ones that will end up being murdered. That's the way I always do my campaigns. There will be direct repercussions to murdering non-stop. In one of my first groups that did this they earned themselves a reputation as investigators learned their identity and bounties were placed on their heads. The party ended up finally dying against a lawful group of adventurers sent to bring them in to stand trial for their crimes. It was a hard chase over rough terrain and finally ended in an decently epic battle where the players watched as they were defeated one by one and their unconscious bodies tied up and transported back for display or life imprisonment.

[zinycor]

In a game I was DMing my party meets up with a ranger girl who asks them to pay a toll to pass through the forest.
They refused and instead tried to fight her. She attacked with a few Conjure Volleys from herself and her concealed ranger friends.

The entire party gets decimated easily and through lucky rolls the wizard remains to teleport us out.

The group's immediate response was to go back and find the bandit group and kill them all, especially the ranger girl.

The local villager claims that the ranger girl and her group were just disgruntled young men and women that ran off to the mountains to stake their own living and attack the lord's trade and tax caravans as rebellion against the unfair taxation and exploitation of the villagers. If the heroes killed the ranger girl and her group they would immediately lose the support of the villagers against the evil baron.

They can go murder-hoboing if they want. Then they're the ones that will end up being murdered. That's the way I always do my campaigns. There will be direct repercussions to murdering non-stop. In one of my first groups that did this they earned themselves a reputation as investigators learned their identity and bounties were placed on their heads. The party ended up finally dying against a lawful group of adventurers sent to bring them in to stand trial for their crimes. It was a hard chase over rough terrain and finally ended in an decently epic battle where the players watched as they were defeated one by one and their unconscious bodies tied up and transported back for display or life imprisonment.

sorry what? Why were they put on a bounty for killing bandits that tried to toll them with no right whatsoever?

[A Fat Dragon]

Imagine you were a rogue nation trying to go against Britain in the 1700’s. You decide that America is quite bothersome, but if you attack it, France would be angry, even though America has no rights yet.

Sorry, a bit of a history nerd.

[zinycor]

Imagine you were a rogue nation trying to go against Britain in the 1700’s. You decide that America is quite bothersome, but if you attack it, France would be angry, even though America has no rights yet.

Sorry, a bit of a history nerd.

What is this a metaphore to? is someone going to get mad at you for leaving the game?

[A Fat Dragon]

It’s a metaphor for the situation with the bandits, the town, and the party in the other DM’s campaign.

Sorry, just.. forget it :P

[BBQ Pork]

Several times. He says that “Well, If you’d play more support-orientated characters, perhaps I wouldn’t kill you.”

Or something like that. It’s the reason why I was stuck playing a Kobold Artificer who was more focused on support, than damaging and controlling enemies. (The character was intitially made for debuffing and damaging)

As a fellow player, your next option I see is to talk to the DM. Either you need to find another group, or your DM has to smack this behavior down.

[zinycor]

I still don't get why were the players wrong in killing bandits that tried to toll people with no right at all...

[BBQ Pork]

A party that murder-hobos has a limited lifespan.

The earliest description of Bahamut that I remember reading is that he sometimes liked to wander around disguised as an old monk, circled by 7 yellow songbirds that were themselves gold dragons.

I'd go for a more slowly escalating series of events would be ever increasing bounties on their heads for their crimes, attracting increasing tiers of bounty-hunting parties. Some may use stand-up fights, some may use poison and other subtle means.

[GlenSmash!]

Several times. He says that “Well, If you’d play more support-orientated characters, perhaps I wouldn’t kill you.”

This would completely, entirely, and utterly not be acceptable at my table. No one has a right to tell anyone else how to play their character much less what that character should actually be.

This would result it a "Stop it or GTFO" from me as a DM.

[Malifice]

This is what happens when you have chaotic neutral and evil characters.

Nah this party is good aligned.

Hence all the child murder, armed robbery and cop killing.

[Sigreid]

The best thing to do is tell the group that it's not fun being treated like this guy's slave and leave.

At my most onrey I'd make my own game out of screwing with him. Not really recommended, but I can be childish.

[RazorChain]

So, as a player, I like doing roleplay, puzzles, intrigue, and adventuring stuffs, alongside a bit of combat now and then. However, I recently learned that the majority of my main party (I play in a situation where the DM, and the party is constantly changing) consists of Murder-Hobos. Granted, I don’t mind them too much, as they’re my only friends, but it does get a bit annoying when the kill a rich character for gold, when the character is a way of giving more narration, and other things like that.

I’m not trying to say that murder-hobos are bad, but is there any way to deal with this situation?

Murder-hobos are bad, that's why they have an insulting monicker.

Just think of them as psychopaths that are willing to murder everything in their path to get their will.

Luckily there is more than one type of murder-hobos.

A) Smart ones
B) stupid ones

Unluckily for you it seems your fellow players fall firmly into the B catagory.

[KorvinStarmast]

The earliest description of Bahamut that I remember reading is that he sometimes liked to wander around disguised as an old monk, circled by 7 yellow songbirds that were themselves gold dragons.
IIRC that's in either the AD&D 1e DMG or the AD&D Monster Manual.

Nah this party is good aligned. Hence all the child murder, armed robbery and cop killing. When you only have one punch line, it doesn't mean that all posts are a set up for it. :smallyuk:

[Tanarii]

The earliest description of Bahamut that I remember reading is that he sometimes liked to wander around disguised as an old monk, circled by 7 yellow songbirds that were themselves gold dragons.


IIRC that's in either the AD&D 1e DMG or the AD&D Monster Manual.
AD&D 1e Monster Manual p33

Also
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22861223&postcount=37

[Malifice]

IIRC that's in either the AD&D 1e DMG or the AD&D Monster Manual.
When you only have one punch line, it doesn't mean that all posts are a set up for it. :smallyuk:

I just find it hillarious that the DM(s) of this group are apparently OK with a 'Good' aligned PC running about murdering people, including children, often for no other reason than gold.

Not the sort of campaign I would touch with a 10' pole.

Id love to DM it though. The Cleric would be in for a rude shock.

[ZorroGames]

Didn't you read that the OP plays with his friends?

Friends do not abuse ir use friends.

[zinycor]

Friends do not abuse ir use friends.

When I made that comment the OP had not stated that there was any abuse.

[A Fat Dragon]

Sorry, just kind of late at making replies.

While I’d like to hope that I’m not being abused, and I look for the best in people, the evidence is still there. Perhaps I am being abused, but I do hope that it isn’t the case.

[zinycor]

If I were you I would find another group ASAP.

[samcifer]

The druid player of my group has suggested that we gain some xp from social encounters with npcs, but the dm won't do it and we tend to have few battles (last session there was only a 2-part boss battle and nothing else in a 6 hr. session, which is sadly becoming the norm for our group, so we may very well HAVE to become murder hobos just to keep gaining xp.

[strangebloke]

Sorry, just kind of late at making replies.

While I’d like to hope that I’m not being abused, and I look for the best in people, the evidence is still there. Perhaps I am being abused, but I do hope that it isn’t the case.

'abuse' is a really loaded word, but they're being bossy and controlling and making the game unfun, and the DM is way too permissive, an opinion of mine that is reinforced by your earlier thread about the dragon. Trust yourself enough to say 'no' whenever they tell you to do something. Ask the cleric's player what his problem with you is. Not your characters, you. Because he's being a crap-basket to you not just to your characters. Don't need to be eloquent, just brave. Repeat the question in front of the whole group until he answers it or backs down. He says he doesn't have a problem with you? Just reiterate: "You're being a jerk to every character I make, that's the same thing." Keep your cool, and if he loses it and gets mad, you win the argument by default.

That's how to work this out, from a confrontational standpoint. You have the high ground. But honestly it sounds like you're pretty non-confrontational, and in that case, just quit, call it a day and join a Roll20 game. Don't make it a thing just say, "Yeah, I don't like this style of game." You wanting to leave will put you in a position of power from a negotiation standpoint. If they don't want you to leave, they'll offer concessions. Now, I doubt they can give you what you want, but...

Alternately, if you wanna be evil...

Roll up a PVP character. Bugbear Assassin vPaladin. Make repeated notes that 'Grock holds grudges, he's very unforgiving.' Other character tries to control your character or kill him? Just humbly state in character: "I'm going to remember this. You get 3 warnings. This is your first/second/last." After the last warning, just murder the death out of him. Wake up in the night, sneak over to his sleeping cot, and kill him.

Sound like too much? Yeah, it is. But it is much less than he has done to you, which illustrates how f-ed his attitude towards you is.

[RazorChain]

The druid player of my group has suggested that we gain some xp from social encounters with npcs, but the dm won't do it and we tend to have few battles (last session there was only a 2-part boss battle and nothing else in a 6 hr. session, which is sadly becoming the norm for our group, so we may very well HAVE to become murder hobos just to keep gaining xp.

Or you can just become proactive. If trouble doesn't find you, then go out and find trouble!

But your comment reminds me of a cartoon in Dragon magazine where this villager runs into the village screaming "RUN! There is a fighter coming that only needs 5 xp to level 20!"

[Malifice]

I recall with a new group I was DMing for in 3E, one of the new players (session 1) attempted to murder the barkeep (instead of paying the 2sp for an ale).

After a raised eyebrow, and an 'are you sure about this?' he still decided to stab the guy.

Of course, I narrated the rest of the tavern going ape-****, several guys in the tavern reaching for weapons, the mans wailing wife stepping over him to stop his bleeding, and several commoners rushing outside in a panic calling for the guards.

This was followed by the PC in question being captured by said guards, then put on trial and being hung drawn and quartered for attempted murder. I went into some detail about the sentence being carried out, complete with peasants there to throw tomatos and other fruit at him (and the odd stone) as he was being executed.

Fortunately the other PCs healed the dying barkeep before he died, so the campaign didnt suffer. In fact they kind of bonded over the incident.

The murder-hobo player in question never came back again.

Overall it was a win/ win/ win. The disruptive player went elsewhere, the PCs had a reason to bond together and a defining moment to start the campagin, and the remaining players were left under no illusion about the world having consequences, and my stance on murder-hobism.

The only thing I would do differently if I had my time again, is have a chat about campaign expectations. We werent as clear as we could have been during session 0 about everything.

[strangebloke]

I recall with a new group I was DMing for in 3E, one of the new players (session 1) attempted to murder the barkeep (instead of paying the 2sp for an ale).

After a raised eyebrow, and an 'are you sure about this?' he still decided to stab the guy.

Of course, I narrated the rest of the tavern going ape-****, several guys in the tavern reaching for weapons, the mans wailing wife stepping over him to stop his bleeding, and several commoners rushing outside in a panic calling for the guards.

This was followed by the PC in question being captured by said guards, then put on trial and being hung drawn and quartered for attempted murder. I went into some detail about the sentence being carried out, complete with peasants there to throw tomatos and other fruit at him (and the odd stone) as he was being executed.

Fortunately the other PCs healed the dying barkeep before he died, so the campaign didnt suffer. In fact they kind of bonded over the incident.

The murder-hobo player in question never came back again.

Overall it was a win/ win/ win. The disruptive player went elsewhere, the PCs had a reason to bond together and a defining moment to start the campagin, and the remaining players were left under no illusion about the world having consequences, and my stance on murder-hobism.

The only thing I would do differently if I had my time again, is have a chat about campaign expectations. We werent as clear as we could have been during session 0 about everything.

I can see this being done, however, this just reinforces the concept of 'do not get caught.' They might not stab the barkeep, rather than pay 2 sp, but they might slit his throat the night before he sleeps and steal all his gold.

The most murderous, misanthropic a-holes I've had at my table follow this pattern. They kill and assassinate when they can get away with it, and run like the dickens when they can't. Since my setting was a large number of city states, they were able to keep functioning for quite a while despite the number of cities that had a 'imprison on sight' policy. But the ending of the story was all about bringing the city states together against a massive threat, and the bridges they'd burned came back to haunt them in a big way.

'course, some of those cities hated them for the good they'd done, so maybe the moral of the story is that they should have commited to one strategy.

[Malifice]

I can see this being done, however, this just reinforces the concept of 'do not get caught.' They might not stab the barkeep, rather than pay 2 sp, but they might slit his throat the night before he sleeps and steal all his gold.

Barkeeps wife uses the savings they have stashed away to pay for a raise dead and/ or a speak with dead spell. PC murderer is identified. Newly ressurrected barkeep [or wife] petition the local lord to have the PCs brought to justice. Local Lord turns to his court Wizard [Mage] to assist the Captain of the Watch [Veteran] and several town guard [Guard] to apprehend the PC and bring him to justice. The Mage proceeds to use scrying to locate the PC in question and then he (and several guardsmen and the captain) arrive to apprehend the PC.

Should the PC not come along quietly and attack or kill the town guard, he's a Cop killer, and the most wanted man in the local lords realm. In addition to our local lord sending word to his lord (the King) for reinforcements, and dispatching the captain of his Army (a Champion) and several knights (Knights) along with a large portion of the remaining guard [an arbitrary number of Guard], and placing a sizeable bounty on the PCs head, the local lord brings in a NPC adventuring party [a Champion, War priest, Evoker, Assassin and Gladiator] to apprehend the PC. They repeat the same tactics, this time supplemented by the Assasins contacts with the local thieves guild to track him down.

Should the PC defeat that group, then the King intervenes. He dispatches his court Wizard [Archmage] to deal with the problem, along with a small army of soldiers [a Warlord with the Leadership trait, War Priest, 2 Champions, and several Knights]. The bounty on the PCs head increases to the point that every adventurer in the realm is hunting him down.

If that doesnt work, the King likely changes his plan, and sends an emissary to the PC trying to get him on the Kings side ['I offer you a full pardon; but only if you take out my opponents army, like you took out mine!').

Long story short, you're probably going to make things worse not coming along quietly. Just like in real life.


The most murderous, misanthropic a-holes I've had at my table follow this pattern. They kill and assassinate when they can get away with it, and run like the dickens when they can't. Since my setting was a large number of city states, they were able to keep functioning for quite a while despite the number of cities that had a 'imprison on sight' policy. But the ending of the story was all about bringing the city states together against a massive threat, and the bridges they'd burned came back to haunt them in a big way.

Have your NPCs not heard of speak with dead, scrying, zone of truth, divination and so forth?

I get that murdering a stable boy or no-body of note in secret is not likely to attract much attention (or anyone that has the resources to obtain such spellcasting) but sure as hell some families (and police) will have such resources. Contacts at the local Church of Tyr, or a contract with the Flaming Fist mercenaries, or a Wizard or two in the local Lords employ, or contacts with the Thieves guild, or a relative thats an adventurer, or someone wealthy that can simply pay for it.

'Random stable boy' could actually be the illegitemate son of 'Galzamiir the great, Archmage of the North' who keeps tabs on the boy. He might not take his sons murder too kindly. Imagine if some random walked into Shadowdale and offed some random stable boy, and started offing people trying to arrest him afterwards? Elminster might have something to say about that.

Just do stuff like that from time to time.

Then when the PCs are eventually caught, have them publicly executed. Then describe what happens next [you guys are actualy evil, despite what it says on your character sheets, after you all die you find yourselves in hell, there to be tormented for an eternity), and have them roll up new 1st level PCs.

If you're feeling kind, give them a chance to escape the trial and flee elsewhere, or a chance to get themselves aquitted, or even a chance to escape hell (Constantine style).

Actions have consequences. If you dont enforce those consequences, it's no wonder they keep doing it.

[Malifice]

Bear in mind, in FR most cities have rather potent self defence/ special police. In Waterdeep they have the Grey Hands (all of whom are high level adventurers and unique NPCs like loyal Frost giants and the like) led by an Epic level Wizard (Khelben Blackstaff). In Baldurs gate, they have the Flaming Fist mercenaries (who boast potent spell casters such as wizards and clerics of 10th level+ in their employ).

Most towns have churches. Depnding on the size of the town, those churches likely contain spellcasters capable of casting raise dead or speak with dead, and may be accepting donations from the King (or other favors, such as being allowed the dominant faith of the town) in exchange for offering access to these spells from time to time.

Churches like Tyr and Torm probably offer these services free of charge, and go out of their way to help those who have been wronged.

Also in FR, most towns of any note have a mid-high level arcane spellcaster in them. Cities like Baldurs Gate have dozens of them. Waterdeep has hundreds of them. Im sure magic like scrying isnt that out of reach for many (in particular the local lord should the PCs become a problem).

And of course there is another option for a local lord having problems with a murderous PC causing problems:

Hire a bunch of goodly aligned adventurers to track him down in his lair and bring him to justice for the good of the town.

Yep. Make the PC the BBEG. Turn the damn tables on him.

[zinycor]

Or... you could simply say to the player, you don't do that, the adventure isn't about that, therefore such conduct will not be admisible. And done, if he doesn't like it, He can always leave. Why go through all of these convoluted plans?

[Malifice]

Or... you could simply say to the player, you don't do that, the adventure isn't about that, therefore such conduct will not be admisible. And done, if he doesn't like it, He can always leave. Why go through all of these convoluted plans?

Its not a 'convoluted plan.'

Its the DM establishing a living breathing world, where actions have consequences.

Murder (especially the murder of a member of the Town Guard, or the Kings men) has consequences. Serious consequences.

I'd only stop a player if he continued to create PCs that sidetracked the others or was disruptive to the campaign.

[Beelzebubba]

Several times. He says that “Well, If you’d play more support-orientated characters, perhaps I wouldn’t kill you.”

Or something like that. It’s the reason why I was stuck playing a Kobold Artificer who was more focused on support, than damaging and controlling enemies. (The character was intitially made for debuffing and damaging)

What an arrogant piece of garbage.

You do realize this 100% unacceptable from anyone, let alone a friend, right?

I'm not going to presume too much, but there was a time I was picked on a lot, due to (drama not relevant here). I was bullied, and had 'friends' like this. Because I didn't know any better.

I left them behind, and when I moved to a new city, I was just so confused - people were so nice. I didn't have to fight for respect, I wasn't always fighting for dignity...I didn't realize that's what most people actually live like.

If I can offer one piece of advice, consider this: you will not earn the respect of that jerk. You should leave. Go find another group, and spend your time with people that like and respect you.

[strangebloke]

snip

I think your approach is bad.

Remember, 'challenge' is an appeal of the game. All you're doing (as they see it) is making the murdering more challenging (aka fun) when what you're actually doing is trying to get them to stop by any means you can possibly contrive.

So for a while they might just see this as fun. Slit the barkeeper's throat and stuff him in a bag of holding, cremate the corpse twenty miles away. Ohhh but then, you reveal that the king often eats at that tavern, and upon finding his friend is dead he immediately summons Archmage Thron too investigate, and the PCs are horribly tortured forever.

If they're sophisticated, your justifications become more and more convoluted. The stable boy is a bastard child of an arch mage, really? Why do the PCs have anything to do, or even matter at all, if this society has enough resources to send 9th level wizards/clerics on quests after some random murderer-of-barkeep? Maybe next time the beggar they beat up is secretly Bahamut in disguise! That will show 'em.

You're breaking verisimilitude to settle an ooc problem.. Settle the ooc problem, you're the DM. When one of my players went too far, I told him: "your character's actions aren't appropriate for this group or campaign. Tone it down or I'm not DMing for you. Your other alternative is to RP the villain." (Player is a misanthrope, so I thought maybe I could channel thanks to my advantage and get the rage out of his system.)

[AHF]

Sounds like you have two separate issues that are intertwining:

A) You've got a controlling A-hole at the table.

B) You've got the murder-hobo behavior of the collective group (other than yourself).

I would probably approach it like this. (1) Talk to my best friend in the group who won't be a complete toadie to the bully and see if I can share my perspective and get him on board with me that something should change. (If my best friend at the table doesn't see it my way or I can't identify anyone who won't cave to the bully then you are the decision point of roll with it or find a new group unless you are prepare to have it out with the bully.) (2) Assuming your friend is supportive, have your friend and you talk to the DM together and push for clarification around what the plan is for the campaign. Explain that this is fundamentally different than your original expectation and that the murder-hobo theme is putting your character in conflict with the others which is not fun for you. The DM then either needs to sack up along the lines of the many fine suggestions on this thread for imposing what are the logical consequences of this behavior or confirm that the campaign and setting are going as intended.

(3) If the plan from the DM is to condone the murder-hobo behavior and keep it up then you either need to quit or roll with it - likely by making a new character or having your existing character make some major change ala flipping from a Devotion Paladin to an Oathbreaker. If the DM is ready to sack up, then it is time for a talk with the entire table where you guys agree on a new baseline for the campaign.

Sounds like the biggest obstacle in all of this is the other players and DM(s) condoning the bully's behavior and folding whenever he pushes on them.

[ZorroGames]

When I made that comment the OP had not stated that there was any abuse.
Bull ****. Telling people how they must play or how their character must act is very much controlling abuse.

[strangebloke]

snip

This is very good advice. Incidentally, this is pretty much exactly the proposed method for conflict resolution proposed in the holy writings of several major world religions!

Talk to the guy (you did this, didn't work)
Talk to the guy with a friend to back you up. (you can skip this step)
Go with your friend to an arbiter (the DM)
DM sees if he can arbitrate a deal.
IF no deal can be made, DM casts judgement and casts someone out of the group. (the nuclear option)

[GlenSmash!]

This is very good advice. Incidentally, this is pretty much exactly the proposed method for conflict resolution proposed in the holy writings of several major world religions!

The party shall be cut in twain!

[strangebloke]

The party shall be cut in twain!

"Whoever loves the party more will clearly be the one to offer peace more quickly in an attempt to save the party. Keep him and cast the other guy out."

[zinycor]

Bull ****. Telling people how they must play or how their character must act is very much controlling abuse.

I absolutely Agree