Stealing items from players - warning Curse of Strahd spoilers!

[Stormflayer]

Hello everyone,

I want to talk about stealing items from players. To start, I will preface this with my own plan in my campaign for the main bad guy (Strahd Von Zarovich) to steal the sunsword from the PCs. To keep this short, the players are traveling through Tsolenka Pass and I plan to use the mountainous terrain to Strahd's advantage. Through the combination of fog cloud for concealment and his charm ability to manipulate the character in possession of the sunblade, I intend for Strahd to steal this feared weapon. As I was devising this scheme I became ambivalent towards stealing from players, on the one hand I feel this is exactly what Strahd would do to hinder the group, but conversely stealing a magical weapon (or anything of significance) from the players comes off as a faux pas which should be avoided.

What do you all think? What are your thoughts and experiences regarding this topic? I am especially keen to hear from other DMs who have run Curse of Strahd on how they played Strahd.

P.S. if any more clarity is needed then I am more than happy to share.

Cheers!

[Unoriginal]

Stealing from the players is ok -as long as they're told it can happen during this campaign and that it's played out with the normal rules for such situation, not just "your character get X item stolen, no save, check or whatever even if the perpetrator is just a commoner".

It's not nice, but enemies don't have to play nice. On the other hand, given it's a fairly major loss and that Strahd is not a practical guy (or at least, he believes others are no threat to him), he might have put the magic item under the guard of a minion of his at proximity of where the theft was.

Good opportunity to some "this is personal" business.

[willdaBEAST]

I ran something like that in my own CoS campaign. Once the party recovered the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and used it, Strahd was on high alert and started to take them seriously as a threat. He had been scrying on them, so when they went to the Amber Temple to recover the Sun Sword, he prepared an ambush outside the Temple with the primarily goal of attaining those feared artifacts. I set up the ambush directly outside the temple, because the party managed to reach the Arcanaloth and stole its spectacles, so the Arcanaloth was lurking in the temple waiting for a chance for revenge. This forced the party into a difficult decision, do they leave a defensible position (the chokepoint of the Amber Temple) and brave an enemy within, or fight their way out to face Strahd and his forces on open ground.

In my case, the party ended up fighting Strahd off, but it elevated the threat level and they lost some NPC allies. I had Strahd astride his nightmare, moving into the ethereal plane to try to isolate one of the party members with the holy symbol or the sun sword.

Another alternative is to have Vistani thieves manage to steal one of the artifacts and you create some kind of chase sequence.

As Unoriginal wrote, I would make sure the players have some agency in this. I wouldn't take an item from them with no opportunity to recover it.

[the_brazenburn]

I had Strahd connive the Sunsword from them. The vampire lord doesn't consider them a threat, so he can just come up to them and trick or charm them into making a rash promise, then following up on it by handing over the item.

Strahd doesn't have to steal something if he doesn't want to.

[Malifice]

Hello everyone,

I want to talk about stealing items from players. To start, I will preface this with my own plan in my campaign for the main bad guy (Strahd Von Zarovich) to steal the sunsword from the PCs. To keep this short, the players are traveling through Tsolenka Pass and I plan to use the mountainous terrain to Strahd's advantage. Through the combination of fog cloud for concealment and his charm ability to manipulate the character in possession of the sunblade, I intend for Strahd to steal this feared weapon. As I was devising this scheme I became ambivalent towards stealing from players, on the one hand I feel this is exactly what Strahd would do to hinder the group, but conversely stealing a magical weapon (or anything of significance) from the players comes off as a faux pas which should be avoided.

What do you all think? What are your thoughts and experiences regarding this topic? I am especially keen to hear from other DMs who have run Curse of Strahd on how they played Strahd.

P.S. if any more clarity is needed then I am more than happy to share.

Cheers!

Have an NPC do it (one of Stahds minions). Duex Ex it. Then have the PCs know where it is, and have to decide to either try and recover it, or leave it alone.

[Mellack]

Have an NPC do it (one of Stahds minions). Duex Ex it. Then have the PCs know where it is, and have to decide to either try and recover it, or leave it alone.

I totally disagree. If the DM is just going to say that the item I had is gone without my having any part in it that tells me that DM is not interested in having a co-operative story. I would not want to game with that kind of group.

[Pex]

If there's one thing players don't like more than character death it's getting their stuff stolen. It's not rational, but it's the way it is. However, that doesn't mean it should never be done. What should never be done is the DM to tell a player "When you wake up you notice your <insert item> gone." Never, ever take anything away from a PC by fiat. Players will rightly feel that is a misuse of DM power. PCs need the chance to stop the theft. It has to be an actual chance, not an illusion of one where you go through the motions of the encounter but no matter what the item will be taken. If the PCs prevent the theft, the theft is prevented. Done. DM fiat begone. If the item is taken bet your house the players will want to get it back and they don't care if the quest to save the world needs to be delayed the BBEG wins because of it.

If the item in question is a magic item that is too powerful for the campaign it allows the player to Win D&D you made a mistake handing it out, explain the situation to the player then work with him to get a suitable replacement, either by DM fiat being ok in this case or through the game for verisimilitude. If the item is functioning normally the player has his cool awesome toy but you want to create an adventure yet that item ruins it for you, then choose to create a different adventure or work with it. It's not the player's fault, and he shouldn't be punished for it.

[Angelalex242]

In general, don't be a ****.

If you wouldn't like it happening to you, don't do it your players. Golden Rule still applies to real life, ya know.

[SirGraystone]

While I agree it may be something Strahd would try to do, you are forgetting something, the sword is sentient and hate Strahd very much. I would have Strahd send some minions try to steal the sword maybe some vampire spawn while the group is having a long rest but the sword warn its owner.

[Unoriginal]

In general, don't be a ****.

If you wouldn't like it happening to you, don't do it your players. Golden Rule still applies to real life, ya know.

I don't like my characters dying, doesn't mean my DM should never have people trying to kill them.

[Angelalex242]

I don't like my characters dying, doesn't mean my DM should never have people trying to kill them.

There is a difference between, "Monsters attack you!" And "You never wake up the next morning. The monster killed you all in your sleep. Game over."

[Unoriginal]

There is a difference between, "Monsters attack you!" And "You never wake up the next morning. The monster killed you all in your sleep. Game over."

Yes, this is why my first post on this thread included 'and that it's played out with the normal rules for such situation, not just "your character get X item stolen, no save, check or whatever even if the perpetrator is just a commoner".'


While I agree it may be something Strahd would try to do, you are forgetting something, the sword is sentient and hate Strahd very much. I would have Strahd send some minions try to steal the sword maybe some vampire spawn while the group is having a long rest but the sword warn its owner.

This should be taken into account, yes.

Can the sword take over its wielder if Strahd tries to charm them?

[Cespenar]

Also note that charm is not dominate. The player is allowed to ask some obvious questions as if his own allies wanted his sword. Such as:

"Why do you want the sword?"

"Didn't we agree on me carrying this?"

"Sure, but after we clear those wolves/vampire spawns/whatnot."

It's not as if Strahd can't circumvent these questions as well and finally get the sword, but at least give your players a round's worth of chance.

I'd also allow another trusted ally to make a Persuasion check against Strahd's reasoning, and possibly stop/stall him from giving up the sword.

These were the arguments I had made towards our DM in our latest Strahd game, and he partially agreed, letting the sword-carrier agree to "deactivate" the sword to not hurt Strahd, but not totally relinquish it either.

[djreynolds]

Is this weapon that big of a deal? Seriously

His spell DC is 18, that is a tough save except for the party cleric

I would just throw in an extra coupled of evil buddies for Strahd. But I don't think the weapon is that big of a deal

[Avonar]

I'd be careful. When my party fought Strahd, if we didn't have the Sun Sword we would not have had a chance. Not for the damage, but for the fact that it stops his regen.

Not to mention that this is one of the things that the campaign is built around. If they go through a lot of work and effort to get the sword only to have you steal it, it could be disheartening. It could stop them wanting to actually deal with Strahd as they might not think they have everything they need to do it.

[Spiderguy24]

Can the sword take over its wielder if Strahd tries to charm them?

Based on what it can do, it can't take over its owner. It can transmit its feelings to the owner as a form of communication, but I'm not sure how well that would work against Charm. I'm wondering this since I'm planning on DMing CoS myself and I find this idea intriguing.

[Spiderguy24]

Is this weapon that big of a deal? Seriously

His spell DC is 18, that is a tough save except for the party cleric

I would just throw in an extra coupled of evil buddies for Strahd. But I don't think the weapon is that big of a deal

One, it has the properties of the Sun Blade which gives the wielder +2 to attack and damage rolls. Two, it deals radiant damage, and extra radiant damage against undead, which Strahd is. Three, it illuminates sunlight out to a maximum of 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet. Taking that into consideration, a very skilled warrior wielding that weapon is a threat to the master vampire.

[Sigreid]

It's ok to have him or his minions try. It's not ok for the party to have something taken where there was nothing they could hav3 done about it.

[willdaBEAST]

One, it has the properties of the Sun Blade which gives the wielder +2 to attack and damage rolls. Two, it deals radiant damage, and extra radiant damage against undead, which Strahd is. Three, it illuminates sunlight out to a maximum of 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet. Taking that into consideration, a very skilled warrior wielding that weapon is a threat to the master vampire.

It's something he hates and thought was destroyed, so I agree that the Sun Blade is something that he would take seriously. Strahd is extremely intelligent, recognizing variables that can change the balance of power between him and a group of adventurers seems to totally in character imo. He's also prone to emotional responses like with Tatiana, I don't think it's unreasonable that he might have a similar reaction to the Sun Sword.

[damascoplay]

Well, Strahd has a reason for not wanting the PC's to have such a valuable weapon that could mean his ultimate destruction. It is only natural for him to try to avoid such risks.
But, if Strahd decides to do something, like casting a fog cloud and trying to charm the owner of the sun blade, let your players roll iniciative and let the combat begin.

If everything goes well for Strahd, then it's his win. If he didn't managed to steal the sword, it's his loss.

Stealing magic items is not a DM sin that should never be done. The only problem with this is how badly some DM's handle it. Like "Hey guys, you all wake up during the morning, but player X your sun blade is nowhere to be seen!"

Just make sure to give them the chance to prevent this from happening. And let the dice fall where it may.

[djreynolds]

One, it has the properties of the Sun Blade which gives the wielder +2 to attack and damage rolls. Two, it deals radiant damage, and extra radiant damage against undead, which Strahd is. Three, it illuminates sunlight out to a maximum of 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet. Taking that into consideration, a very skilled warrior wielding that weapon is a threat to the master vampire.

Spiderguy24 it is an awesome weapon. Alas we never got to use it. Yeah that +2 to hit is huge

Our DM, Strahd simply charmed the Sun Blade's wielder and took him out of the fight

So my cleric simply cast daylight, and we went to battle

There are not many magic weapons in CoS, maybe like 6. A greatsword, a spear, a mace, a short sword, and the sun blade.

We killed him with the luck blade and spells

Its going to be a nasty battle, and lots of the players will die killing him.

Daylight is a good spell if your sunblade is taken away or its wielder is taken out of commission

[willdaBEAST]

Spiderguy24 it is an awesome weapon. Alas we never got to use it. Yeah that +2 to hit is huge

Our DM, Strahd simply charmed the Sun Blade's wielder and took him out of the fight

So my cleric simply cast daylight, and we went to battle

There are not many magic weapons in CoS, maybe like 6. A greatsword, a spear, a mace, a short sword, and the sun blade.

We killed him with the luck blade and spells

Its going to be a nasty battle, and lots of the players will die killing him.

Daylight is a good spell if your sunblade is taken away or its wielder is taken out of commission

Unless your table rules separately, I don't think daylight is intended to count as sunlight (I agree that it's a bit illogical). Spells that create sunlight specify the type of light that it's creating and "bright light", while open to interpretation doesn't count for sunlight RAW. You'll notice the Sun Blade specifies that sunlight is created by it.

A side question, how do other DMs treat the dim light part of the Sun Blade? The item specifies that it starts at 15 ft bright light and an additional 15 ft of dim light. I've been treating the 15 ft bright light radius as the only part that damages and prevents vampire regeneration, since the item has the ability to increase the bright radius up to 30 ft. Is that a fair ruling, or am I diminishing the power of the item too significantly? I wouldn't be opposed to ruling something like the dim light portion of the item causes disadvantage or something of that nature, otherwise I don't see Strahd ever facing that weapon in close quarters.

[SirGraystone]

Can the sword take over its wielder if Strahd tries to charm them?

No, but the sword communicate by sharing emotions, I would give a player receiving warning from the sword advantage on the save against charm.

[Angelalex242]

No, but the sword communicate by sharing emotions, I would give a player receiving warning from the sword advantage on the save against charm.

The sword's warning is a good reason for the Player to, say, close his eyes. Strahd still needs eye contact, like every other vampire.

[Friv]

Based on what it can do, it can't take over its owner. It can transmit its feelings to the owner as a form of communication, but I'm not sure how well that would work against Charm. I'm wondering this since I'm planning on DMing CoS myself and I find this idea intriguing.

I feel like that would depend on the character and how they treat the sword.

If one of my best friends said, "Hey, can I pick up your cat", and my cat immediately hisses and freaks out, I'm going to say, "Sorry, man, I would, but the cat really doesn't like you. It wouldn't be nice."

If my best buddy Strahd says, "Hey, I'd like to hang on to your Sunblade" and my Sunblade starts immediately projecting waves of fear and hatred at me, and I'm the sort of person who respects the agency of an intelligent weapon, I am going to really apologetically tell my best buddy Strahd that the sword isn't interested in that plan.

On the other hand, if I don't really care what the sword thinks, sure, I may just say, "Yeah, okay, but the sword's pretty unhappy about it so let's keep it quick" and then I lose my sword.

(And definitely chiming in with "give the players a fair chance to keep the sword, but if Strahd gets the win, he gets the win".)

[Bobbyjackcorn]

Let's break from the roleplay of being Strahd for a moment and think about the importance of the sunblade to the campaign.
It's a sentient magical weapon which hates Strahd, belonged to his brother, is a source of holy energy, and can activate to shed sunlight in an area around it. I can't see any reason Strahd would want to handle something like that, and even if he tried, I could easily see it activating itself to burn him until he left it alone.
Furthermore, from a good dming perspective, the Sunblade is that macguffin that 9 times out of 10 ends up being the difference between the players dying to Strahd, and Strahd dying to the players. It's kinda poor form to take it from them, properly rolled for or not.
I'm not saying that it is objectively bad to take it from them, but it seems like it'd just suck a lot of the fun out of the campaign.

[willdaBEAST]

The Sunblade is that macguffin that 9 times out of 10 ends up being the difference between the players dying to Strahd, and Strahd dying to the players. It's kinda poor form to take it from them, properly rolled for or not.
I'm not saying that it is objectively bad to take it from them, but it seems like it'd just suck a lot of the fun out of the campaign.
I think that's all true, but I think there should also be a distinction between taking the Sun Blade away from the players for good and creating a scenario where they have to take a risk to recover it, now knowing how important an item it is. I think having someone like Arrigal steal the Sun Blade and then the players are racing to stop him from delivering it to Ravenloft could be a fun encounter. I do agree that regardless of whether the item is stolen or not, the players almost certainly need to recover it to stand a chance vs Strahd (especially if he's abusing his lair actions in Ravenloft).

[Unoriginal]

Strand might also be in a "I never want to see this thing again" mindset and send minions to steal it and then go to somewhere it can be destroyed. Should give the PCs plenty of room to recover it if they lose it.

[Uigeadaily]

I have neither read nor run this adventure, so I only have a passing knowledge. A DM I knew once bemoaned the fact that his CoS party had found the Sunsword early on and were steamrolling most combats too quickly to make them distinguishable from one another. Meanwhile one of the other artefacts (The Dragon Skull IIRC) was gathering dust in The Ravenloft Crypt. This apparently made it inaccessible until the endgame.
I suggested that he could fluff an opportunity to infiltrate a portion of the crypt to acquire it. Yet in the process the Sunsword would be lost to the party, whether via a trap set by Strahd or as payment demanded by the NPC agent who helped them (who may have their own agenda with the Sunsword). Either way a victory was achieved in spite of losing the Sunsword, which could be recovered at a future date.
Alas, his campaign was soon to be put on hiatus after an encounter with some overly-welcoming Flaming Skulls.

As an alternative to straight-up thievery, might Strahd stoop to bargaining with the party? He could trade crucial information on a less dangerous - comparatively to him - artefact. Especially if he thought the risk in acquiring it was great enough to endanger the party. Isn’t he in part motivated into “testing” them?

Might he demand the sword for the return of a hostage PC or NPC(s)? It would certainly escalate the stakes (pun absolutely intended).

[Angelalex242]

I have neither read nor run this adventure, so I only have a passing knowledge. A DM I knew once bemoaned the fact that his CoS party had found the Sunsword early on and were steamrolling most combats too quickly to make them distinguishable from one another. Meanwhile one of the other artefacts (The Dragon Skull IIRC) was gathering dust in The Ravenloft Crypt. This apparently made it inaccessible until the endgame.
I suggested that he could fluff an opportunity to infiltrate a portion of the crypt to acquire it. Yet in the process the Sunsword would be lost to the party, whether via a trap set by Strahd or as payment demanded by the NPC agent who helped them (who may have their own agenda with the Sunsword). Either way a victory was achieved in spite of losing the Sunsword, which could be recovered at a future date.
Alas, his campaign was soon to be put on hiatus after an encounter with some overly-welcoming Flaming Skulls.

As an alternative to straight-up thievery, might Strahd stoop to bargaining with the party? He could trade crucial information on a less dangerous - comparatively to him - artefact. Especially if he thought the risk in acquiring it was great enough to endanger the party. Isn’t he in part motivated into “testing” them?

Might he demand the sword for the return of a hostage PC or NPC(s)? It would certainly escalate the stakes (pun absolutely intended).

That assumes the PC with the Sunsword doesn't just start hacking at him on sight, turning the sun power on and going to town on him.

[Blacky the Blackball]

One, it has the properties of the Sun Blade which gives the wielder +2 to attack and damage rolls. Two, it deals radiant damage, and extra radiant damage against undead, which Strahd is. Three, it illuminates sunlight out to a maximum of 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet. Taking that into consideration, a very skilled warrior wielding that weapon is a threat to the master vampire.

Yep. When we played CoS, we took down Strahd using the Sun Sword. The final blow was quite epic, since it involved the Battle Master fighter using a manoeuvre (I don't remember which one) to give my Paladin an attack out of turn (after I'd spent my own action dashing after Strahd to stop him from escaping us), and then I missed him by two points - so the Wild Mage sorcerer used their Bend Luck power to make me hit. I supplemented the Sun Sword's damage with a Smite using a third level spell slot, and that was enough to drop him.

Meanwhile, our wizard was flying while carrying the party cleric who was concentrating on a sunlight effect (from the Symbol of Ravenkind, I think) which stopped Strahd from turning to mist form and escaping back to his coffin to regenerate.

It was a real team effort, and a very satisfying climax to the campaign. I'm not normally a fan of the "Big Bad Evil Guy" trope because it's over-used, but in this case it worked extremely well.