Martial Initiator Gestalt - Optimization Help

[GrayDeath]

Hello Guys and Gals!


For an upcoming Gestalt Campaign one of our Players decided that he would be the only Player NOT playing a Caster Side (exact rules see below), but try to maximize Number and Power of Martial Maneuvers as high as possible.
Now I am quite good at getting Initiators zp and running ... but this is a very High Power Campaign where he WILL be less than perfectly equipped in comparison to the other Players, so I thought Id ask the Pros of the Playground for Help.

Rules: one side must be a single CLass with at most one fitting prestige CLass through out.
The other Side may have up to 4 different CLasses (in any combination).
Monster HD are allowed but restricted to one side (which one is up to the player).
Pointbuy 36pts.
Starting Level 6.
Starting WBL half normal (but a weapon may make up all of the money), further campaign has at LEAST full WBL but likely only fully availabe Magic Marts from level 11 or 12 onward.

To allow him more variance, we decided to allow adding in up to 2 Patfinder (POW) Disciplines. For this purpose each ToB CLass starts with one more Discipline chosen from PoW that fits thematically and MAY exchange another ToB Discipline for a PoW one if the Player so desires.

Now what we want is the most maneuvers/power/Adaptability possible.
Allowed Books: SRD, PoW, ToB are in, extra books as long as they are not Seprent Kingdoms/Savage Species are likely allowed.
Aside from not haveing ANY magic (the most he would be willing are Built in Monster SLA`s or a bit of Incarnum) the theme/look/feel is quite open.

I am looking forward to your suggestions. :smallcool:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human, Divine Minion of Anhur (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 LA)
Unarmed Swordsage 20// LA +1/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 4/ MoMF 3/ whatever.
You can include Warblade and/or an initiator prestige class on the MoMF side, just be sure to include at least seven MoMF and at least two Warshaper levels.


If he'd rather go for a more traditional warrior-type, I'd say some kind of Dragonborn Water Orc Mineral Warrior (+1 LA), maybe include Half-Minotaur if allowed (with the size increase it's way too good for +1 LA), and take Swordsage on one side with a combination of Warblade, Crusader, and prestige classes on the other.

[GrayDeath]

So, as the game will likely start within the next 2 weeks, and I only got one anwer (and seeing it totally missed the "MAximize Maneuvers and Flexibility" idea of the OP by simply suggesting shapechanging, any other ideas?

Again, he wants to get the most out of his maneuvers, ideally be powerwise not too far off the Casting Players (which will likely be a rather optimized Sorcerer, a VERY optimized Cleric (persistomancy and so on) and an average Druid).

Specific Questions: which POW Disciplines would you add, and why?

Methods, aside from using feats of course, you suggest for maximized maneuvers?

Exact builds?

THanks! :)

[DeTess]

What exactly is the focus of your campaign? Dungeoneering? Courtly intrigue? Wilderness survival?

That having been said, If was playing in your game I'd put cleric 1/unarmed swordsage 1/warblade 13/master of nine 5 on one side and the true dragon progression (from dragon magazine 320 or 332) on the other side. That's probably not optimal, but it will get you a load of maneuevers from any school, and all the nice stuff of being a dragon (flight, SLA's, DR, natural armor, strength, etc.)

Edit: in this build cleric and swordsage are meant to help fill the large feat prerequisites of master of nine through specific domain choices and UA swordsage's monk unarmed combat.

[GrayDeath]

The Campaign is likely going to be a semiclassic "Prevent bad thing X from happening, find out who dunnit, stop him" with small smithers of politics and ally finding in between.

Dragon magazine is allowed on a case by case base, centered on "The DM has that issue" and "not totally bonkers", so suggest them with care, please. :)

[Wings of Peace]

The best answers are going to depend a bit on what the player considers a caster side. There are a lot of magical but not technically "caster" options that could combine well with an initiator. Binders, Incarnates, and shapechangers like Warshaper are all strong choices when built around correctly that would bring some extra choices in and out of combat. Psychic Warrior is also a strong option but probably too much of a caster. If the player wants something more mundane then Barbarian and Generic Warrior both add a lot of ways to work some additional versatility into the build.

[Nifft]

For an upcoming Gestalt Campaign one of our Players decided that he would be the only Player NOT playing a Caster Side (exact rules see below), but try to maximize Number and Power of Martial Maneuvers as high as possible.


If the goal is to maximize number of maneuvers, then the PC is probably going to be something like...

Swordsage 20 // Crusader 8 / Warblade 7 / Master of Nine 5

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not necessarily max maneuvers, but max martial ability and powerful options:

Any large size or powerful build race (Goliath in RoS +1 LA, Half-Ogre in RoD +2 LA, Half-Minotaur template too good +1 LA, Half-Goristro template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) +4 LA, etc.)

Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1// LA X/ Swordsage/ War Hulk 10/ Swordsage, maxing out War Hulk as early as possible.

That last Fighter level at 20th allows you to take Weapon Supremacy in PH2 as the Fighter bonus feat at that level.

Fighter uses the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (reflavored if necessary), the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and the Dead Levels class features (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a).

Take max ranks in Intimidate with the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, take the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, and get armor with the Fearsome property also in Drow of the Underdark (it's a more recent version than the one in MIC).

Take Power Attack and Knock-Back from Races of Stone, along with Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

Every attack can hit three adjacent opponents or eventually every opponent within reach, everyone hit is knocked prone and knocked tumbling away. Anyone who's knocked back into a solid obstacle (such as the floor if you're overhead) also takes Dungeoncrasher damage. Knock everyone into a corner, if one tries to get up from prone or move out of the area they provoke an AoO which hits everyone in reach, dungeoncrashing them against the wall, and knocks them all prone if they weren't already.

Get the Wrathful Healing property on your weapon, from Enemies and Allies page 20. It costs a +3, and makes it so whenever you deal damage with that weapon, you're healed for half the total damage dealt.


If you want that build to have more high level maneuvers, switch it to something like Warblade 20// LA +1/ Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ Fighter 3. That still gets Fighter 9 (at 20th) for Zhentarim Soldier tricks, along with Dungeoncrasher and all ten War Hulk levels, but everything but the maneuvers is a bit more delayed.

[Epic Legand]

I am looking at original goals. You can add 2 POW disciplines, those are mostly straight up better then TOB. I would consider Primal Fury for the 3ed level "Primal Warrior Stance" which grants the user TWO size increases on damage, as well as some great maneuvers. Riven Hourglass offers tons of fun choices both in and out of combat and will level well, or perhaps Veiled Moon for access to tons of teleporting fun.

To start I would go 6 unarmed Swordsage//Warblade1-Monk2-WB2-3-4. See if the DM will allow you to use kungfu genius feat from dragon mag. Then take sun school feat from complete warrior. You still have BAB of 6/1 to start, and end up focused on INT. You gain Uncanny dodge/Evasion/ Unarmed combat/Monk unarmed damage. Every combat you teleport...Every teleport you get a free attack. Later take snap kick, every teleport gets 2 free attacks. You also get amazing saves and easy access to MO9( taken on warblade side) You put Veiled moon on warblade side because you can recover maneuvers easily( thus more ports, thus more free attacks), while you put Riven on SS side, because these will be both your bread and butter in/out combat maneuvers.

For race, look at lessor teifling, warforges or fire elf. You end up a non monster, and do not look cheesy. You end up capable of wielding tons of weapons, and you unarmed combat can be your best choice.

For magic items, $1,400 for anklet (2/day 10' swift t port) , maybe the cloak that gives +1 pro and 3/day immediate action teleport....Remember, each t port= 2 free attacks, which can be on your foes turn. If warforged, look at a Battlefist ( 4k, +1 weapon, gives one size up on unarmed damage)