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View Full Version : Optimization Suggestion for debuffer Dread Necro



NetherVoid
2018-02-19, 06:03 AM
Hi everyone,
i'm going to start a new campaign with a dread necromancer, but i don't want it to be the minion master traveling with an horde of undead. I'd like to be a debuffer and to use Aura of Fear in the battleground.
The character will start from lvl 4 as a human (no necropolitan) and my concerns are primarily about feats because i really don't know which metamagic ones will suit better to my spell list.

Bonus feat will be Tomb-Tainted Soul and unfortunately my WIS will be 9, so no Arcane Disciple (unless you have a solution to raise it). I'm thinking to start this way:

H: Tomb-Tainted Soul
1: Spell Focus: necromancy
3: Spell Penetration: necromancy

Which feats do you suggest to pick, even at higher levels?
Last question, do you suggest any PrC or class to pick when I reach DN 8?

The Viscount
2018-02-19, 03:53 PM
Sickening grasp is a nice little reserve feat, since you will always have a necromancy spell ready to cast.

If you're focused on debuffing, you might like Dread Witch.

If you're not doing anything else with your rebuke attempts, Divine Metamagic would be a good way to put them to use. Fell Frighten and Fell weaken might be good for a debuffer, especially if you take escalating enfeeblement as your advanced learning spell.

Thurbane
2018-02-19, 03:59 PM
Quite feat intensive, but the binding feats (ToM) can get you Aura of Sadness.

Falontani
2018-02-19, 04:40 PM
Mother Cyst will add to your spells known and give you some rather nice spells that go well with your Spectral Hand, including a way to dominate creatures with necromancy.
Going along with with what Thurbane said you could take Anima Mage to lower the cost of a few metamagics down to 0 a couple times a day.

Another option would be to grab a couple wizard Specialist levels and Ultimate Magus yourself so that you get a huge amount of necromancy.

Last idea that I have for a fun one would be Fleshwarper with Undead Grafting. Supply your own "willing" donor creatures

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2018-02-19, 05:47 PM
Try including a lot of fear effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389244-Caedrus-Art-of-War-vol-1-Fear-Handbook), especially considering you get Intimidate as a class skill. Take the feat Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) and max out your Intimidate ranks, get the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and eventually Fearsome armor (Drow of the Underdark version, it's the most recent) and the feat Imperious Command (DotU). Also consider Fell Frighten Spell (LM) later on when you have high enough level spell slots to make use of it.

Take the Ghostly Visage familiar at 7th, it should always be possessing you to grant you immunities, and it can manifest over your face in combat to use its paralyzing gaze (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + its Cha mod). Keep in mind that it can spend a standard action to force a target to save versus its gaze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks), even if they've already saved that round and even if they're not looking.

Zaq
2018-02-19, 06:06 PM
Do you have enough STR to take Power Attack? If so, even if you don't plan on using PA, I have a somewhat off-the-wall suggestion: Netherese Battle Curse, from Lost Empires of Faerun pp. 8-9. It basically lets you sacrifice a spell slot before making a melee attack—any melee attack, even your Charnel Touch, its upgrades like Scabrous Touch, the touch attack portion of Sickening Grasp, or any spells that involve a melee touch attack, like the Inflict line or Ghoul Touch or any of the many others that DNs have. In exchange, you get a bonus to hit with the melee attack in question (not the primary benefit, but a nice secondary benefit) and you force your target to save against your "battle curse," which is basically a -2 on nearly everything that matters in combat. If you're going for a debuffer build, every -2 counts, especially since this stacks with pretty much anything else (shaken, sickened, etc.). The only unfortunate part is the prereq: as stated, it requires Power Attack for some stupid reason. But it's still pretty cool. More interesting that Spell Focus, that's for sure.

Speaking of Sickening Grasp (which The Viscount mentioned immediately), check with your GM about how the wording is going to be interepreted in your game. There's one reading that says that all reserve feats require a standard action to use unless otherwise stated, but there's another reading that says that "any living creature you hit with a melee touch attack" simply refers to any melee touch attacks you might happen to be making (as long as the prereq of having a reserved Necromancy spell to cast is met) must save, rather than you needing to make a separate touch attack as a separate action. The CL bonus might make it worth taking even if it's its own action, depending on your predilections, but it's worth having the conversation.

You also might look into miscellaneous defensive feats. Tomb-Tainted Soul is good for topping up your HP between fights, but if you're going to be relying on your fear aura and on touch attacks, you're still going to get up in melee range with things that can probably make you regret having light armor and d6 HD.

Finally, if you're not going for a minionmancy build, you might not have a whole lot of use for Rebuke Undead. Accordingly, you might look into domain feats or divine feats to have things to spend your RU uses on.

NetherVoid
2018-02-21, 09:50 AM
If you're focused on debuffing, you might like Dread Witch.

If you're not doing anything else with your rebuke attempts, Divine Metamagic would be a good way to put them to use. Fell Frighten and Fell weaken might be good for a debuffer, especially if you take escalating enfeeblement as your advanced learning spell.

I thought about taking 5 Dread Witch levels, it's an option, like is Tainted Scholar or Shadow Adept.

Divine Metamagic after errata don't work anymore. DN don't cast divine spells if i'm not wrong. To use it it requires at least the Southern Magician feat.

I like the "Fell" feats, Fell Frighten for sure, but I think I' prefer Fell Drain over Fell Weaken 'cause it's nice to throw negative levels around with Kelgore's grave mist!

NetherVoid
2018-02-21, 09:59 AM
You also might look into miscellaneous defensive feats. Tomb-Tainted Soul is good for topping up your HP between fights, but if you're going to be relying on your fear aura and on touch attacks, you're still going to get up in melee range with things that can probably make you regret having light armor and d6 HD.

Finally, if you're not going for a minionmancy build, you might not have a whole lot of use for Rebuke Undead. Accordingly, you might look into domain feats or divine feats to have things to spend your RU uses on.
Melee touch attacks can be made also thru Spectral Hand, so it's not necessary to be in the middle of the battle.

About Sickening Grasp, what sickened status means for the enemy in terms of game?

Any suggestion on how use Rebuke?

NetherVoid
2018-02-21, 10:02 AM
I didn't knew this guide, ty for it Biffoniacus_Furiou going to read it!

Zaq
2018-02-21, 10:48 AM
Sickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#sickened) is basically a -2 to most things that matter.

Divine feats (other than DMM) and Domain feats can both use RU uses for non-minionmancy things, and there's enough out there that it's hard to make too many suggestions without knowing what you're hoping to gain out of your feats. Animal Devotion has a lot of tools (including flight from a non-racially-locked feat, which is rare), so that's useful. Law Devotion is a solid numerical buff. Death Devotion adds a nice debuff if you're actually using a melee weapon, but you might not be. Travel Devotion is useful on basically any character. Profane Boost has an acceptable effect but has an unacceptable action cost, so you're likely better off taking Mastery of Day and Night (Player's Guide to Eberron, pg. 125) if you want to be maximizing Inflict spells.

NetherVoid
2018-02-22, 01:11 PM
I think i’ll go DN all the way to 20. Thinking something like this.

H: Tomb-Tainted Soul
1: SF:necromancy
3: ?
6: Fell Frighten
9: Undead Leadership
12: Metamagic School Focus
15: Spell Penetration
18: Greater Spell Penetration

3rd lvl feat is still to decide (GSF, Never Outnumbered, Divine Vigor, Travel Devotion, Fell Drain) really don’t know.

One more question: if I use a Fell X on a spell that do damage over time (Kelgore’s, Evard’s and so on) the feat has effect each round or only the first time the spell does damage?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2018-02-22, 02:39 PM
Never Outnumbered is a skill trick, not a feat. Skill tricks only cost two skill points to obtain. If you're going the Intimidate route, you'll definitely want to get Imperious Command at 6th level.

NetherVoid
2018-02-23, 01:11 AM
Never Outnumbered is a skill trick, not a feat. Skill tricks only cost two skill points to obtain. If you're going the Intimidate route, you'll definitely want to get Imperious Command at 6th level.

You’re right about Never Outnumbered, my bad. Imperious Command is great, but I don’t think it’s the best option for my char because I will not be in melee often.

Thurbane
2018-02-27, 01:10 AM
I've stumbled across another feat that might be useful in this type of build: Netherese Battle Curse (LEoF): you burn a spell slot for a bonus on a melee attack euqal to the spell level. If the attack hits, the target must make a Will save or take an untyped -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 minute.

It's not amazing, but it will stack with other penalties.