Am i a for this

[Throne12]

So last night the party was traving but when they awaken to a blizzard. They where given a choice try and make some ground and walk throught the storm where they know it's going to be a con save every 2 hours to fight off A level of exhaustion and frost bit or have the wizard cast tiny hut again and wait it out. So they decided to wait. 24 hours later the blizzard let's up. They set back off and soon encounter a young white dragon the party is all level 7 there is a blood hunter lycan order, adj wizard, beast ranger, blood cleric, Artificer, oathbreaker paladin. So be for I called for Initiative. I asked for a perception checks no one but the ranger saw something. I told her that she saw a large shadow blocked the light from the moon. Like a creature above them just Flew by. She told the rest of the group. I then asked what everyone what are they doing. The wizard cast mage armor and everyone else asked for a perception they rolled and see something. I then ask for Initiative they all rolled higher then the dragon Except for the cleric. So they all get to act before the dragon gets to them. So they run to the trees. But they didn't spread out. They held there action. The dragon comes in and get all of then in it ice breath. I rolled 12d8 and got really high but after the party voiced there concern. I looked again and saw I was looking at the adult so I had 2 groups of 6d8 so I gave them one. Later realizing the young dragon breath was 10d8. So they got it easy. So they get there held actions off. The blood hunter ran and jumped off the Artificer and landed on the dragon. The dragon then starts flying up. The wizard cast fly on the paladin. the paladin and blood hunter then takes it on by them self while it flus further up. I was having the dragon stay out of party's range untel it get it breath back them make another run. They kill the dragon then safely get back to the ground.

After the game my party was mad at me because if I sticked to the normal damage all but the ranger and Artificer would of been down.

[zinycor]

So last night the party was traving but when they awaken to a blizzard. They where given a choice try and make some ground and walk throught the storm where they know it's going to be a con save every 2 hours to fight off A level of exhaustion and frost bit or have the wizard cast tiny hut again and wait it out. So they decided to wait. 24 hours later the blizzard let's up. They set back off and soon encounter a young white dragon the party is all level 7 there is a blood hunter lycan order, adj wizard, beast ranger, blood cleric, Artificer, oathbreaker paladin. So be for I called for Initiative. I asked for a perception checks no one but the ranger saw something. I told her that she saw a large shadow blocked the light from the moon. Like a creature above them just Flew by. She told the rest of the group. I then asked what everyone what are they doing. The wizard cast mage armor and everyone else asked for a perception they rolled and see something. I then ask for Initiative they all rolled higher then the dragon Except for the cleric. So they all get to act before the dragon gets to them. So they run to the trees. But they didn't spread out. They held there action. The dragon comes in and get all of then in it ice breath. I rolled 12d8 and got really high but after the party voiced there concern. I looked again and saw I was looking at the adult so I had 2 groups of 6d8 so I gave them one. Later realizing the young dragon breath was 10d8. So they got it easy. So they get there held actions off. The blood hunter ran and jumped off the Artificer and landed on the dragon. The dragon then starts flying up. The wizard cast fly on the paladin. the paladin and blood hunter then takes it on by them self while it flus further up. I was having the dragon stay out of party's range untel it get it breath back them make another run. They kill the dragon then safely get back to the ground.

After the game my party was mad at me because if I sticked to the normal damage all but the ranger and Artificer would of been down.

Nothing seems out of the ordinary here... the only thing that seems kinda weird is that they didn't spread out when seing a dragon. Have they fought dragons or similar creatures before? Do they often attack and not use move actions? if so, maybe an advice could have been in order.

[Throne12]

Nothing seems out of the ordinary here... the only thing that seems kinda weird is that they didn't spread out when seing a dragon. Have they fought dragons or similar creatures before? Do they often attack and not use move actions? if so, maybe an advice could have been in order.

Two players are DM's for different groups. Rest have at least a year of play. This is the first time I have used a dragon with the group.

A little back story. Last campaign the party had a tpk to a pair of twins one a rouge and other a wizard. That they wasn't happy about. And it been 3 games sents. We play every week.

[zinycor]

Well, I don't know about the wizard and rogue encounter, but about the dragon ancounter you can just tell them to suck it up. The game is called dungeons and dragons, if you find a dragon is going to be overpowered by design, it's supposed to be.

[DeTess]

A young white dragon is only cr6, so it's an appropriate challenge for the group. That having been said, it's always smart to check the numbers, as most people will feel very unhappy if they just get insta-killed with no warning.

So I don't think you really did anything wrong, but I would be careful about throwing something like this at the party without warning. If they are heading out to kill a dragon, or travelling through the dragon mountains, it's fine of course.

[Throne12]

A young white dragon is only cr6, so it's an appropriate challenge for the group. That having been said, it's always smart to check the numbers, as most people will feel very unhappy if they just get insta-killed with no warning.

So I don't think you really did anything wrong, but I would be careful about throwing something like this at the party without warning. If they are heading out to kill a dragon, or travelling through the dragon mountains, it's fine of course.

They had 3 turns before combat started. They knew it was a dragon.

[zinycor]

They had 3 turns before combat started. They knew it was a dragon.


So I don't think you really did anything wrong, but I would be careful about throwing something like this at the party without warning. If they are heading out to kill a dragon, or travelling through the dragon mountains, it's fine of course.


Am guessing that without warning means "warning before going into the dragon's territories". However a young white dragon doesn't really need such an introduction for a lvl 7 party in my opinion.

[Unoriginal]

A CR 6 encounter is Easy for such a group, mathematically speaking. That the dragon acted smart is to be expected, because even if the White Dragons are not geniuses, that kind of monsters know how to hunt and to fight.

That they nearly died fighting it despite having several turns to prepare and nearly all their daily ressources is more a problem from the PCs than the DM.

[DeTess]

Am guessing that without warning means "warning before going into the dragon's territories". However a young white dragon doesn't really need such an introduction for a lvl 7 party in my opinion.

You're free to disagree, but an average of 45 damage against a level 7 party does need a warning sign IMO, given that a class with 14 con and a d8 hit die will have only 49 hp.

It's not the dragon that I think needs a warning sign of some sort, just the effect capable of wiping a full-health party in a single pass.

[zinycor]

You're free to disagree, but an average of 45 damage against a level 7 party does need a warning sign IMO, given that a class with 14 con and a d8 hit die will have only 49 hp.

It's not the dragon that I think needs a warning sign of some sort, just the effect capable of wiping a full-health party in a single pass.

Agreed. However the party traveling to a winter zone after a snow storm should be warning enough to a level 7 party to bring cold resistance items, but this isn't a guarantee so, I concede to you. The party could have used more warning.

[Throne12]

You're free to disagree, but an average of 45 damage against a level 7 party does need a warning sign IMO, given that a class with 14 con and a d8 hit die will have only 49 hp.

It's not the dragon that I think needs a warning sign of some sort, just the effect capable of wiping a full-health party in a single pass.

They know that being out side at night is Dangerous. This is a new world they setped throught a portal to and know nothing about. They had all there Resources. They had time to Prepare. Only thing I didn't do was ( Hey guys tonight y'all will be fighting a dragon so go head and meta game your plan to fight it before it shows up ok cool.) Hell the paladin got the killing blow with a reaction attack and rolled a Nat 20.

[Mikal]

You're free to disagree, but an average of 45 damage against a level 7 party does need a warning sign IMO, given that a class with 14 con and a d8 hit die will have only 49 hp.

It's not the dragon that I think needs a warning sign of some sort, just the effect capable of wiping a full-health party in a single pass.

The effect was capable of wiping out the party in a single pass because they decided to huddle up together instead of spreading out.

[zinycor]

They know that being out side at night is Dangerous. This is a new world they setped throught a portal to and know nothing about. They had all there Resources. They had time to Prepare. Only thing I didn't do was ( Hey guys tonight y'all will be fighting a dragon so go head and meta game your plan to fight it before it shows up ok cool.) Hell the paladin got the killing blow with a reaction attack and rolled a Nat 20.

To be fair, most first fights with a dragon do go with something similar to:" Hey guys tonight y'all will be fighting a dragon so go head and meta game your plan to fight it before it shows up ok cool.", mainly because Dragons are normally great antagonist and the party is usually looking to fight it.

Not saying this has to be the case, but, in my case, it has been.

And rolling a nat 20 is just luck, not accounting for their preparation for the battle nor your foresight.

[Easy_Lee]

You're fine. Sometimes unexpected things happen. None of them acted particularly intelligently or gathered cold resistance items when going into the wilderness. It's their own fault if they weren't properly prepared.

They were able to win initiative and you didn't unfairly surprise them. You didn't have the dragon and his friend waiting outside to ice breath them in the morning. You didn't have the dragon partner with a roper to hold the party in place while the dragon breathed on them. You didn't use flyby tactics to harass the party before the fight.

They all survived and things could have been much worse. It also doesn't sound like the encounter took an inordinate amount of time - maybe it did, I'm unsure. So I think you're fine.

[Throne12]

You're fine. Sometimes unexpected things happen. None of them acted particularly intelligently or gathered cold resistance items when going into the wilderness. It's their own fault if they weren't properly prepared.

They were able to win initiative and you didn't unfairly surprise them. You didn't have the dragon and his friend waiting outside to ice breath them in the morning. You didn't have the dragon partner with a roper to hold the party in place while the dragon breathed on them. You didn't use flyby tactics to harass the party before the fight.

They all survived and things could have been much worse. It also doesn't sound like the encounter took an inordinate amount of time - maybe it did, I'm unsure. So I think you're fine.

It took about 4 rounds and they went quick for the most part.

[zinycor]

Btw, What are the player's complaints? So far it seems like it was a fun battle.

[Easy_Lee]

It took about 4 rounds and they went quick for the most part.

Great. I have no idea why they're complaining and it sounds to me like you're doing a good job. But I wasn't there so I can't say for sure what's going on.

One idea is to switch things up just a bit. I encourage you to read this article (http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) from The Angry GM. Your players might enjoy a type of fun that isn't present in your campaign, and perhaps that's the real source of their complaints. People generally aren't as good at telling you want they want as they are at complaining about things they don't like. You might try a few things to see what resonates with them.

[Throne12]

Great. I have no idea why they're complaining and it sounds to me like you're doing a good job. But I wasn't there so I can't say for sure what's going on.

One idea is to switch things up just a bit. I encourage you to read this article (http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) from The Angry GM. Your players might enjoy a type of fun that isn't present in your campaign, and perhaps that's the real source of their complaints. People generally aren't as good at telling you want they want as they are at complaining about things they don't like. You might try a few things to see what resonates with them.

There mad because if I used it full damage all but 2 would of been Unconscious. And that as the dragon was flying out of there range they couldn't do anything. The ranger is dual hand crossbows btw. They said it was a unfair encounter and the cr is ****. But they want to fight things like dragons, beholders, and other monsters.

[zinycor]

There mad because if I used it full damage all but 2 would of been Unconscious. And that as the dragon was flying out of there range they couldn't do anything. The ranger is dual hand crossbows btw. They said it was a unfair encounter and the cr is ****. But they want to fight things like dragons, beholders, and other monsters.

Well, that's a dragon encounter, it's supposed to go that way. Again, Dragons are in the ****ing name of the game xD

[Easy_Lee]

There mad because if I used it full damage all but 2 would of been Unconscious. And that as the dragon was flying out of there range they couldn't do anything. The ranger is dual hand crossbows btw. They said it was a unfair encounter and the cr is ****. But they want to fight things like dragons, beholders, and other monsters.

Maybe they like to think they're tougher than they actually are. "It's out of my range and there's nothing I can do" is not something a good player with a reasonable DM should ever say.

But they're still your players. I recommend the article I linked since you may be able to figure out from that what kind of campaign they want, and if that type of campaign will work for you (which is the most important question).

[Mikal]

There mad because if I used it full damage all but 2 would of been Unconscious. And that as the dragon was flying out of there range they couldn't do anything. The ranger is dual hand crossbows btw. They said it was a unfair encounter and the cr is ****. But they want to fight things like dragons, beholders, and other monsters.

They could have tried to escape? Hide? Hit and run?
Anything besides huddle together with a big sign saying "Please use your breath weapon now."?

[Willie the Duck]

Wow. I have not been impressed with AngryDM, but that was a good article.

To the OP, a few things, and then my main point.
1) People complaining after a near TPK is fairly common. It is what they say the next gaming session that is informative. If they are still saying things like, "that was completely unfair," then you have something to deal with. If not, it probably was just an at-the-time issue.
2) You mentioned how long they have been playing, but how long have you been a) playing D&D, and b) DMing?
3) Just a little more attention to writing basics would make your posts a lot easier to read.

Anyways, fundamentally the correct response to "DRAGON!" is "Spread out!" They seem to have done the opposite. Find out why. Were they expecting trees to act as cover? That the dragon somehow hadn't seen them? That the trees would have kept a flying creature from getting close? Those are all relatively decent ideas to apply to a 'real world' situation (A small-aircraft-sized creature would have a hard time deploying limited-range effect that close to trees, as many a Vietnam-era doorgunner would attest). But in the simplified world of D&D combat, they seem to have chosen to make it as easy as possible for their reptilian opponent. If there is a disagreement between you and your group as to how the world should work, that needs to be addressed. In all likelihood, this can be resolved with a simple, "You knew you were facing a creature with an area-effect attack, why did you bunch up?" and them responding, and you guys hammering out your preconceptions. Just remember to go into the situation realizing that you are not inherently the one in the right (when there is a fundamental communication breakdown, everyone is at fault), and the important thing is that everyone leave the conversation with a shared understanding.

Hope that helps.

[Throne12]

Wow. I have not been impressed with AngryDM, but that was a good article.

To the OP, a few things, and then my main point.
1) People complaining after a near TPK is fairly common. It is what they say the next gaming session that is informative. If they are still saying things like, "that was completely unfair," then you have something to deal with. If not, it probably was just an at-the-time issue.
2) You mentioned how long they have been playing, but how long have you been a) playing D&D, and b) DMing?
3) Just a little more attention to writing basics would make your posts a lot easier to read.

Anyways, fundamentally the correct response to "DRAGON!" is "Spread out!" They seem to have done the opposite. Find out why. Were they expecting trees to act as cover? That the dragon somehow hadn't seen them? That the trees would have kept a flying creature from getting close? Those are all relatively decent ideas to apply to a 'real world' situation (A small-aircraft-sized creature would have a hard time deploying limited-range effect that close to trees, as many a Vietnam-era doorgunner would attest). But in the simplified world of D&D combat, they seem to have chosen to make it as easy as possible for their reptilian opponent. If there is a disagreement between you and your group as to how the world should work, that needs to be addressed. In all likelihood, this can be resolved with a simple, "You knew you were facing a creature with an area-effect attack, why did you bunch up?" and them responding, and you guys hammering out your preconceptions. Just remember to go into the situation realizing that you are not inherently the one in the right (when there is a fundamental communication breakdown, everyone is at fault), and the important thing is that everyone leave the conversation with a shared understanding.

Hope that helps.

I been playing D&D a bit over 3 years. I been DMing for about 1 1/2 years now. For the 3 years I've been Participating in 2 games a week.

[enderlord99]

Consider me to have only read the title, because I have no comment on anything else. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dik-dik)

[JakOfAllTirades]

Wow. I have not been impressed with AngryDM, but that was a good article.

To the OP, a few things, and then my main point.
1) People complaining after a near TPK is fairly common. It is what they say the next gaming session that is informative. If they are still saying things like, "that was completely unfair," then you have something to deal with. If not, it probably was just an at-the-time issue.
2) You mentioned how long they have been playing, but how long have you been a) playing D&D, and b) DMing?
3) Just a little more attention to writing basics would make your posts a lot easier to read.

Anyways, fundamentally the correct response to "DRAGON!" is "Spread out!" They seem to have done the opposite. Find out why. Were they expecting trees to act as cover? That the dragon somehow hadn't seen them? That the trees would have kept a flying creature from getting close? Those are all relatively decent ideas to apply to a 'real world' situation (A small-aircraft-sized creature would have a hard time deploying limited-range effect that close to trees, as many a Vietnam-era doorgunner would attest). But in the simplified world of D&D combat, they seem to have chosen to make it as easy as possible for their reptilian opponent. If there is a disagreement between you and your group as to how the world should work, that needs to be addressed. In all likelihood, this can be resolved with a simple, "You knew you were facing a creature with an area-effect attack, why did you bunch up?" and them responding, and you guys hammering out your preconceptions. Just remember to go into the situation realizing that you are not inherently the one in the right (when there is a fundamental communication breakdown, everyone is at fault), and the important thing is that everyone leave the conversation with a shared understanding.

Hope that helps.

I'm gonna take a wild guess why this happened, because my old D&D group had to change our tactics in situations like this.

They've got a Paladin in the party; even if it's a *&^%$#@! Oathbreaker*, my understanding is that he still has the base Paladin class Aura of Protection feature. And he's had this feature since he advanced to 6th level, so the group has had several sessions to grok the idea that being close to the Paladin gets them a hefty Saving Throw bonus. This is a standard tactic for any group with a Paladin, particularly when the group knows they'll all have to make difficult Saving Throws in the encounter. (Aside from its breath, the dragon also has a fear aura, which sucks.)

Obviously, relying on the Paladin's aura when fighting any creature with a powerful area attack is a bad idea. The OP's group knows that now.


*Why oh why would you let someone play a *&^%$#@! Oathbreaker?

[DeadMech]

My first fight with a dragon went similarly. It was young and only large so maybe we underestimated it. And we were indoors so getting hit with a breath weapon while bunched up was the result of terrain and initiative more than choice. They were also quite capable of downing people with their multi attack combo back in 3.5 as well. In fact I think I would have rather ate another breath attack than face a flurry of claws, bite and tail attacks.

I don't recall complaining because frankly that was only one of a long string of fights that almost wiped out the party and since it was the actual boss of the dungeon it was at least satisfying.

In this edition almost every area effect I read about goes around corners so trying to take cover behind trees probably wont stop a breath attack. Maybe they wanted hide checks. Maybe they didn't think the dragon could fly in range. I don't know. 5e isn't exactly dripping with easily accessible magic items to grant cold resistance and flight depending on the table. People also often lament how hard it is to kill PC's while quite a number of monsters are fully capable of one shotting people in my experience.

[Davrix]

They need to suck it up and also it was a battle in a cold environment. I would of made the breath higher then what was in the book.

Personal note I hate players that go I KNOW THE STAT BLOCK! I KNOW IT CANT DO THAT.

Boy please I am the DM and whatever is in that book is not whats behind this screen so suck it up. If anything they were being dumb in how they set up for the fight with that much warning and yea I would of blasted the breath and let them take the consequences. It sounds to me like they just dont like to loose or when its not stacked in their favor.

[Willie the Duck]

Personal note I hate players that go I KNOW THE STAT BLOCK! I KNOW IT CANT DO THAT.

I agree with this, but it is rather orthogonal to the discussion since it doesn't seem that's what happened.


They need to suck it up and... Boy please I am the DM and whatever is in that book is not whats behind this screen so suck it up.

This less so. I've never seen someone say that their players need to suck something up without it really meaning they want to be immune from criticism (because complaining is inherently whining or something?).
Starting a discussion between oneself and one's players with the assumption that you are the one in the right is always the wrong way to start. That's the opposite of open communication.


And we were indoors so getting hit with a breath weapon while bunched up was the result of terrain and initiative more than choice. They were also quite capable of downing people with their multi attack combo back in 3.5 as well. In fact I think I would have rather ate another breath attack than face a flurry of claws, bite and tail attacks.

2e and 3e dragons were pretty thoroughly designed to be 'don't face these guys in a fair fight'-style monsters. They were a reaction to od&d and 1e dragons which were awesome monsters of power in reputation only. Sure, the loose balance of 3e and a the plethora of expansions which negated any dragon benefit quickly made them just one more participant in the rocket-tag, but overall, they were tough, high-AC, high-save monsters you did not want to get up close and personal with.


People also often lament how hard it is to kill PC's while quite a number of monsters are fully capable of one shotting people in my experience.

It's really more hard to kill one (1) PC. The easier it is to get a single PC back up and online and how hard it is to keep them down for the count means you have to put them against tougher encounters to challenge them, increasing the likelihood that any encounter where at least one PC dies is actually a TPK. As challenging as B/X or BECMI was back in the day, we had a lot of characters make it to high level because the party would run when a character or two bit the dust.

[strangebloke]

I'm gonna take a wild guess why this happened, because my old D&D group had to change our tactics in situations like this.

They've got a Paladin in the party; even if it's a *&^%$#@! Oathbreaker*, my understanding is that he still has the base Paladin class Aura of Protection feature. And he's had this feature since he advanced to 6th level, so the group has had several sessions to grok the idea that being close to the Paladin gets them a hefty Saving Throw bonus. This is a standard tactic for any group with a Paladin, particularly when the group knows they'll all have to make difficult Saving Throws in the encounter. (Aside from its breath, the dragon also has a fear aura, which sucks.)

Obviously, relying on the Paladin's aura when fighting any creature with a powerful area attack is a bad idea. The OP's group knows that now.


*Why oh why would you let someone play a *&^%$#@! Oathbreaker?

I think you've got the right of it.

[seventh_soul]

I think its crap that they are complaining about fighting a young white dragon, They are level 7. My party of 4 lvl 5 charecters took out a iron golem without losing health. They are a assasin rogue, bearbarian, oath of devotion paladin, and a drunken master monk.

the ac's are 21 (rogue), 14 (barbarian), 20 (Paladin), and 18(monk).

Golem gets suprise attack along with its 2 stone golem buddies.

rogue has alert feat so no suprise on him

roll initiative

rogue gets 30 initiative nat20 + dex + feat

rogue gets advantage so gets sneak attack

hits with rapier +1

over comes magic resistance

1d8 + 3d6

tanks all the golems hits

hits again

paladin smites

stone golem dead

monk flurries

barb makes grapple check

succeds

stone restrained

etc etc
they die
those players are plain wrong

[Citan]

So last night the party was traving but when they awaken to a blizzard. They where given a choice try and make some ground and walk throught the storm where they know it's going to be a con save every 2 hours to fight off A level of exhaustion and frost bit or have the wizard cast tiny hut again and wait it out. So they decided to wait. 24 hours later the blizzard let's up. They set back off and soon encounter a young white dragon the party is all level 7 there is a blood hunter lycan order, adj wizard, beast ranger, blood cleric, Artificer, oathbreaker paladin. So be for I called for Initiative. I asked for a perception checks no one but the ranger saw something. I told her that she saw a large shadow blocked the light from the moon. Like a creature above them just Flew by. She told the rest of the group. I then asked what everyone what are they doing. The wizard cast mage armor and everyone else asked for a perception they rolled and see something. I then ask for Initiative they all rolled higher then the dragon Except for the cleric. So they all get to act before the dragon gets to them. So they run to the trees. But they didn't spread out. They held there action. The dragon comes in and get all of then in it ice breath. I rolled 12d8 and got really high but after the party voiced there concern. I looked again and saw I was looking at the adult so I had 2 groups of 6d8 so I gave them one. Later realizing the young dragon breath was 10d8. So they got it easy. So they get there held actions off. The blood hunter ran and jumped off the Artificer and landed on the dragon. The dragon then starts flying up. The wizard cast fly on the paladin. the paladin and blood hunter then takes it on by them self while it flus further up. I was having the dragon stay out of party's range untel it get it breath back them make another run. They kill the dragon then safely get back to the ground.

After the game my party was mad at me because if I sticked to the normal damage all but the ranger and Artificer would of been down.


You're fine. Sometimes unexpected things happen. None of them acted particularly intelligently or gathered cold resistance items when going into the wilderness. It's their own fault if they weren't properly prepared.

They were able to win initiative and you didn't unfairly surprise them. You didn't have the dragon and his friend waiting outside to ice breath them in the morning. You didn't have the dragon partner with a roper to hold the party in place while the dragon breathed on them. You didn't use flyby tactics to harass the party before the fight.

They all survived and things could have been much worse. It also doesn't sound like the encounter took an inordinate amount of time - maybe it did, I'm unsure. So I think you're fine.
This.
Honestly from what you tell you did fine, they really could have done better, like...

How come a lvl 7 Cleric would have neither Death Ward nor Protection from Energy when you are obviously in a harsh setting with unknown perils?

How come the Wizard didn't learn Absorb Elements (I mean, it's the basics here)?

How come the Ranger didn't think about trying an Ensnaring Strike?

Etc etc...