Best description of Chaotic Evil race

[Bastian Weaver]

So I've read an old, old thread here concerning orcs, and the way goblinoids are depicted in OOtS, and the whole thing when there's a whole race of evil creatures who are just evil. And that got me thinking.
Now, I don't mean the "they're the enemy and we must kill them because they're the enemy" kind of thing, which is just boring. I mean the races who have reasons to be evil.
Orcs in Middle-Earth and draconians in Krynn are bad to the bone, because they were made that way by an evil power, using evil magic that perverted the nature of originally non-evil creatures. Or the Hellborn in David Gemmell's Jerusalem Man trilogy who are raised in a society that, once again, makes them grow that way - cruel, merciless, bloodthirsty. Still, it's possible for a single individual or even a group of such persons to grow up different from their people, negating the "whole race is evil" statement.
Now, the best description of a truly evil race that I've ever encountered was in another of Gemmell's novels, the Dark Moon standalone. The Daroth are a non-human race who are truly evil. They are telepathic, which links them all together very closely; and at the same time it makes them absolutely non-empathic to other races, those who are unable to join minds with the Daroth. They are predatory by nature, and they eat the defeated enemies not because of some kind of ritual, but just because it's natural for them. They're incredibly strong compared to other sentient races. They constantly require new resources for their ever-growing community. Finally, another thing that makes Daroth evil is that they are essentially immortal - those of them who die are reborn in new bodies, so they don't feel that killing somebody is a big deal. Their natural attitude to other races is similar to "if they are weak, kill them and eat them; if they are strong, destroy them before they destroy us".
Oh, and Dark Moon is not about "killing as many creatures as you want just because they're evil, it's about finding a way to make peace even with the most wicked enemies. Gemmell was awesome in his writing.
So who do you think were the best and most interesting example of a Chaotic Evil race?

[2D8HP]

The gods of Chaos and the Mabden in the Corum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Corum?from=Literature.TheChroniclesOfCorum) novels by Michael Moorcock.


The fairies in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/JonathanStrangeAndMrNorrell) by Susanna Clarke.

The Fae in The Invisible Library (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary) novels by Genevieve Cogman.

[Cozzer]

Elves in the Discworld are basically magical bullies, who have had no reason do develop empathy since they can just use their innate magical charme to make everybody else do what they want. My favorite line describing them is one that says "they'd break your arm because they find the sound it makes funny, and you would laugh along with them," or something like that.

[FreddyNoNose]

The gods of Chaos and the Mabden in the Corum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Corum?from=Literature.TheChroniclesOfCorum) novels by Michael Moorcock.


The fairies in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/JonathanStrangeAndMrNorrell) by Susanna Clarke.

The Fae in The Invisible Library (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheInvisibleLibrary) novels by Genevieve Cogman.

Pretty much this. How many decades later and people still have a pedantic need to nitpick this subject.

[2D8HP]

Pretty much this. How many decades later and people still have a pedantic need to nitpick this subject.


For those of us (like me) who "self-identify" as "pedantic nitpickers" the "need" is life long.

[HandofShadows]

The gods of Chaos and the Mabden in the Corum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Corum?from=Literature.TheChroniclesOfCorum) novels by Michael Moorcock.

It's stated in the books that the Gods of Chaos and not evil and the Gods of Law were not good. In fact if you read The Dancers at the End of Time series you find out that The people at the End of Time may actually be the Gods or Law and Chaos and don't know it.

[2D8HP]

It's stated in the books that the Gods of Chaos and not evil and the Gods of Law were not good. In fact if you read The Dancers at the End of Time series you find out that The people at the End of Time may actually be the Gods or Law and Chaos and don't know it.


True enough. For most of Moorcock's works humanity thrives "in the balance" (unlike Anderson where Law vs. Chaos came from).

Same with Cogman's Law vs. Chaos (Dragons vs. The Fae) with humanity stuck between, but usually Chaos is the more immediate threat, hence "Evil" (from the perspective of mortals).

But usually the "Evil" is impersonal rather than personal malevolence, in the way that earthquakes are.

[Rakaydos]

Goa'uld from Stargate SG1: body-snatching parasites with literal god complexes inherited from birth via genetic memory.

[Ramza00]

Goa'uld from Stargate SG1: body-snatching parasites with literal god complexes inherited from birth via genetic memory.

This is complicated, definitely CE to the races they rule like Humans and Jaffa. Not so sure they are CE towards other Goa'uld, and thus from a society perspective they may not be CE. What I am saying their society is way too much of a Detente to truly be called chaotic.

Races like Goa'uld show the limitations of a two dimensional axis towards alignments.

[Black Jester]

I think I identified the problems with orcs et al, especially in D&D and related media is this: They are not ****ing evil enough. I blame the alignment system for that: replacing an actual horrific description with that neat little sign that says „evil” is effectively the opposite of the 'show, don't tell' policy that creates accessible and believable fictional scenes and characters.

So what is the evil orcs actually do? They pillage, they raid villages, they plunder, murder and rape. Pretty loathsome, all told, but not particularly worse than anybody's ancestors, ten or so generations down the line. In a historical context, brutal raiders and a marauding soldateska is basically banal and most importantly very, very human (as proven by history). So within a pseudo-historical, pseudo-medieval world the orcs aren't worse than, let's say the Magyar riders or Danish Jomsvikings: completely horrible when they attack you, but brave and all when they fight against your enemies. There is not enough vileness in concrete that the orcish raider and the human one (at least if you are not whitewash the latter one).

Now compare this to the broos of Glorantha: broos fill a similar ecologic niche within their setting as orcs do in most D&D worlds: They are humanoid enemies who live in warbands and small tribes, they are raiders and occasionally the occupants of abandoned mines, old ruins and similar places to explore.
However, broos aren't just “those other guys, in green”, they are truly vile creatures: They deliberately spread plagues and diseases, because they are highly resistant against illnesses, while their prey isn't. They almost exclusively reproduce as parasitic rapists, attacking sentient creatures and livestock alike, with new-born Broos almost inevitably killing their mothers. Broos raid farms and mate with the livestock. Weeks later, any infected animals will give birth to dozens or even hundreds of slimy infant broos. They will try to escape to the wilderness, and any that survive will form a new pack of feral broos. They cover their weapons and tools in filth, to make sure that whoever fights them will suffer from infections even if they survive. Broos don't conquer; they contaminate.
Broos are not just a menace on a physical level like Orcs, they are a psychological menace exploiting the usual fear of disease, they are even an ecological threat that can obliterate whole ecosystems through exploitation and fornication. Broo can be seen as inherently evil creatures (they also serve one of the primary gods of chaos, making them even a spiritual threat, but that is setting-specific stuff), even though there is the occasional redeemed one. D&D-ish orcs though? If they are as bad as Vikings, they are only a few centuries away from building Volvos.


The gods of Chaos and the Mabden in the Corum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Corum?from=Literature.TheChroniclesOfCorum) novels by Michael Moorcock.

Rhalina and the people of the fairly okay-ish kingdom of Lwym an Esh are also Mabden, and they seem to be more than okay. Also, mabden is nothing but the Vadagh word for human...

The Fhoy Myore from the second (and in my opinion, much better) Corum trilogy fits the description much better: They are effectively forced into reality from Limbo and find their very existence painful and are trying to recreate the entropic nothingness of their home to make it bearable, even if it means to kill and destroy everything.

[khadgar567]

humans as we still like to archive the promised kingdom written by holy texts of setting and nothing kinda stops us from getting to it. mat be via conquering jack sh*t every thing or destroying and remaking universe via eldricth powers or cosmic macguffins.

[Bastian Weaver]

The gods of Chaos and the Mabden in the Corum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Corum?from=Literature.TheChroniclesOfCorum) novels by Michael Moorcock.


Not really, though all Mabden were created by the Knight of Swords, only king Lyr's armies seem to be evil. The peasants of Bro-an-Vadhagh are neutral, not willing to harm anyone, afraid of Lyr and the Denledhyssi, and the Mabden of Lywm-an-Esh are peaceful and benevolent.
The gods there are all rather nasty - Chaos, Order, Kwll and Rhynn, and poor silly Shool, too.
Haven't read the other ones, though. I'll need to check them out.


Elves in the Discworld are basically magical bullies, who have had no reason do develop empathy since they can just use their innate magical charme to make everybody else do what they want. My favorite line describing them is one that says "they'd break your arm because they find the sound it makes funny, and you would laugh along with them," or something like that.

Good point. They're kind of like Moorcock's gods of Chaos that way - they create beauty, they are amazing, and they are cruel and evil just because it's fun for them.


How many decades later and people still have a pedantic need to nitpick this subject.

Get offa my lawn, you whipper-snapper!


Broo can be seen as inherently evil creatures (they also serve one of the primary gods of chaos, making them even a spiritual threat, but that is setting-specific stuff), even though there is the occasional redeemed one. D&D-ish orcs though? If they are as bad as Vikings, they are only a few centuries away from building Volvos.

An orc-built Volvo. I like that. With all the safety features and ecology protection standards, no less!


humans as we still like to archive the promised kingdom written by holy texts of setting and nothing kinda stops us from getting to it.

I dunno, humans really are rather evil, but every now and then a good one just pops out.

[sengmeng]

I dunno, humans really are rather evil, but every now and then a good one just pops out.

I may have to sig that.

[Darth Credence]

I am not convinced that any of these races are actually all chaotic evil. I don't know all of them, so I could be wrong.

For the Daroth mentioned in the OP, I would say not evil as described. You say they eat the people they defeat, because it is natural to them. They are telepathic with each other, but not other races. So as far as they are concerned, every other race doesn't have the intelligence to communicate, doesn't have a soul because they don't get new bodies on death, and are weak compared to them. So why wouldn't they be food. If they are evil from a human POV, then humans are evil from a chicken's POV. I don't think anything adressed chaotic in the post.

The one mentioned I know the best are the goa'uld. The same thing can be said about them. As far as they are concerned, humans are a lesser race, only really good for using as a host body. Their biology basically necessitates having a host, so taking one is not any worse (and probably better) than humans using animals as beasts of burden. The Jaffa are also effectively beasts of burden, that get a lot more out of the deal than horses get from humans. Their morality is definitely different than ours, and incompatible enough that we are justified in making war on them, but that doesn't mean "evil". (And even ignoring all of that, the existence of the Tok'ra means the race itself isn't inherently all one alignment.)

[NovenFromTheSun]

Da Orks are made for fighten' and winin'!

But really, what makes the orks so effective is that a lot of the writing on them is from their viewpoint, and it's easy to get caught up in it and their dark comedy. They see war as a big party, not too different from how the fans see the setting. Then we see them from another viewpoint and are reminded of just how monstrous they really are.

[Bastian Weaver]

It's not all those qualities that make the Daroth immediately evil, of course. They're just a good background that helps the author explain why do those big ugly things acting like this, why do the like hurting others. What defines them as evil is that they do understand what they're doing, how they hurt other races, but they don't care. Their background makes it easy for them to enjoy doing evil things (and at the same time makes it very unlikely for any of them to have different feelings about it).
It's like the difference between Prof. Moriarty and Dr Roylott. Roylott has a background - he's from a noble but impoverished family, he had to live in India for a long time, he was imprisoned for killing his butler, he married a woman but lost her in a train accident. In other words, the doctor had it rough. There are reasons why no one in the village wants to work for him or even talk to him.
Moriarty's background is basically "he's a mathematician who likes setting up crime, because I'm tired of Holmes and want him to go out with a bang".