forgery questions 5E

[Alpha115]

So one of my players is a level 2 thief Charlatan. He is proficient with forgery kits, and he wants to do some forging of paperwork in this big and bustling city. I am wanting to know the best type of DC for this kind of thing. The city he is really big on having a lot of paper work and being very bureaucratic.

What he wanted to do (he lacked paper and a forgery kit at the time) was make forgeries for all the documents necessary to own the land and the building on said land. I was also wanting some potential ideas of how the city could potential figure out these papers could be forgeries later on if he succeeds. One idea that pooped into my head is the actual owner of the land and building coming by and seeing some random thief moving in with some random adventurers.

[Dudewithknives]

So one of my players is a level 2 thief Charlatan. He is proficient with forgery kits, and he wants to do some forging of paperwork in this big and bustling city. I am wanting to know the best type of DC for this kind of thing. The city he is really big on having a lot of paper work and being very bureaucratic.

What he wanted to do (he lacked paper and a forgery kit at the time) was make forgeries for all the documents necessary to own the land and the building on said land. I was also wanting some potential ideas of how the city could potential figure out these papers could be forgeries later on if he succeeds. One idea that pooped into my head is the actual owner of the land and building coming by and seeing some random thief moving in with some random adventurers.

Well a few things:

1. His plan is stupid.

Nobody will believe his paperwork is correct when they just look at the correct paperwork that has already been there for years. Also he would be giving his paperwork to the people who would have written it in the first place.

2. The DC will not matter. Make it a 15 and if he gets higher, maybe even much higher just make it better. It should be an opposed roll for them to notice the forgery in the first place, with an opposed investigation check.

3. If it is a very lawful city I hope he has no plan to ever go back because his plan will not work.

[Tiadoppler]

For forgeries, the things to keep in mind:

How complex is this particular item to forge? A document with intricate printing, custom paper, metal woven into the paper, specialty dyes or other devices to prevent forgery is FAR more complex than a note written in somebody else's handwriting.
How much scrutiny will it be able to withstand? Are there other records to compare it to?


A note on plain paper that's written in somebody else's handwriting might be a DC 15.
A travel document/visa/(forged) accounting book/deed to property/other document that is common and written on readily available materials might be a DC 20.
A writ/official government issued document/bank certified check might be a DC 25.
Currency or bearer bond might be a DC 30.

If you have an example of the item in question (a handwriting sample, a voided bearer bond, etc.) the DC to copy it is reduced by 5.

It takes time, and potentially money to duplicate expensive documents. You may have to find a source for the correct papers/inks if a government or bank is issuing custom documents or paper currencies.

A specialist in forensics has advantage to detect forgeries. A complex document, or one designed to be difficult to forge may easier to examine than to create. A simple document may be harder to examine than to fake.

Edit:
If there's a significant local bureaucracy, there will be copies of important documents on file. Unless you can replace those too, a forged deed may only fool someone until they can ask a clerk to check the old filing cabinet in the castle's dungeon. This applies even if the forgery is absolutely perfect.


To discover a forgery with an Intelligence(Investigation) check could depend on how much you beat the DC by when you create the document. I use 15+difference to determine how hard the forgery is to detect.

If you have a paper with someone's handwriting on it, and use that to forge a different note (DC 10, you roll a total of 19), the DC to detect the forgery is 15 + (19 - 10), or 24.

If you are creating a bearer bond on custom inlaid paper, without an example in front of you (DC 30) and you roll a 31, the DC to detect the forgery is 15 + (31 - 30) or 16.




Nobody will believe his paperwork is correct when they just look at the correct paperwork that has already been there for years. Also he would be giving his paperwork to the people who would have written it in the first place.
Unless he breaks in and replaces the original file copy too. A government has lots of clerks, and no single clerk is going to remember the contents of all the paperwork that's passed through the city's offices. D&D cities also tend to be pretty lazy about bureaucratic process. There might not be any stored copy at all.


The DC will not matter. Make it a 15 and if he gets higher, maybe even much higher just make it better. It should be an opposed roll for them to notice the forgery in the first place, with an opposed investigation check.
Agreed.


If it is a very lawful city I hope he has no plan to ever go back because his plan will not work.
It might work if he rolls well enough, but it's unlikely to (especially at low levels! Come back as a level 20 rogue and repossess the king's palace for failure to pay taxes :D). Yeah, he'd be a wanted criminal if he's caught. What a shocking twist of fate for a rogue. I hope he's wearing a disguise.

[Vaz]

Forgery Kit in Xanathar's gives you some clues (page 81)

Essentially, it's an opposed check; Int (Investigation) can discover whether the document is authentic; Cha (Deception) allows you to give credence to a lie on the forger's part. If you're handing over a document, then it's the document that's going to be checked, rather than the integrity of the lie. Which can be discovered if it was Int (History) or Int (Investigation).

Getting knowledge of what that location looks like is the tricky part. You can either wing it (Long Rest, Straight Check), or you can give yourself the best possible chance by locating as much information as possible. I'd not allow an aid action with this unless the person aiding has specific knowledge.

This could be a neat little game of breaking and entering to locate the rightful landowning papers, but then you've got to account for documents in duplicate and potentially triplicate, as well as possible arcane bonds to make it correct, as well as any other possible law and judicial systems, such as Zones of Truth, and investigatory systems as people investigate the perjury. You might be able to scare a farmer off their land with a forged royal charter, but that doesn't stop them from going to a law enforcers. Or questions being raised elsewhere.

Choices and decisions have ramifications.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I agree that this is essentially an opposed check, and the scheme is doomed to failure anyway if the party can't destroy all the copies of the real document.

That said, it depends what the character is planning to use the document for. He might be able to use it as part of a long con and then get out of the city before any alarm is raised. He might be able to sell the forgery to local rogues who have their own plan for pure profit. In that case, I'd put the DC to convincingly forge a formal legal document like a land deed at 20, same as Tiadoppler. And yeah, you wouldn't even be able to attempt the forgery if you didn't have all the relevant information on the property to hand.

[Alpha115]

I agree that this is essentially an opposed check, and the scheme is doomed to failure anyway if the party can't destroy all the copies of the real document.

That said, it depends what the character is planning to use the document for. He might be able to use it as part of a long con and then get out of the city before any alarm is raised. He might be able to sell the forgery to local rogues who have their own plan for pure profit. In that case, I'd put the DC to convincingly forge a formal legal document like a land deed at 20, same as Tiadoppler. And yeah, you wouldn't even be able to attempt the forgery if you didn't have all the relevant information on the property to hand.

Well, his plan was pretty much this, the other party members are trying to form an adventuring guild, and are attempting to save up money and resources to buy the license to run one, and to buy a building and land. The charlatan thief is trying to forge these papers so the party does not need to buy the land and building. One player is a native to the city and is a guild artisian so he has a decent idea on how all the document process goes, but he is suspicious of the charlatan's idea so far.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Well, his plan was pretty much this, the other party members are trying to form an adventuring guild, and are attempting to save up money and resources to buy the license to run one, and to buy a building and land. The charlatan thief is trying to forge these papers so the party does not need to buy the land and building. One player is a native to the city and is a guild artisian so he has a decent idea on how all the document process goes, but he is suspicious of the charlatan's idea so far.

Oh, right. Then I concur with the other posters: the plan can't work no matter how well he might roll.

[Unoriginal]

You can't just go "here's the deed, I'm the new owner".

Just for starter, land in/near a city will belong to someone, most likely a noble or a rich burgher or yeoman. Any transaction would have been recorded in the notary's temporary ledger, then as a proper document in the notary's archives, and in the "former" owner's archives.

Other than that, as others have said, the Xanathar's has rules for forgeries.

[SirDigby]

I could see this potentially working although it would have to be quite a bit more complex than the character is probably thinking, it should be quite difficult, and should come at great risk of imprisonment to those involved.

As others have rightly pointed out, merely showing up with a deed and saying "This is mine now" is not going to work. But if the character can also fabricate a paper trail explaining why they have the deed, it might be possible. Something like a contract signed by both parties saying that money changed hands and the deed should be theirs. But this would require multiple forgeries, and would require the party to be able to convince the proper authorities that it is in fact the Noble's deed that is a forgery and he is trying to cheat them out of their money. Another thing to note is who the noble is: a good and respected man, or a known greedy schemer? Are there some beaurocratic palms that could be crossed with sacks of coin, so that the players are only saving some money and not getting riches for free? If the players succeed and aren't penalized with jail, have they now simply gained the ire of a wealthy noble house who knows exactly where to send the assassins?

All in all, very difficult with very high risk, many checks which could fail and result in serious penalties, and not something I would try as a character. But if you made it into something more of a plot that spans one or more sessions instead of just "Roll d20, get thousands of gp worth of free stuff" it could be something fun and believeable.

[Alpha115]

I could see this potentially working although it would have to be quite a bit more complex than the character is probably thinking, it should be quite difficult, and should come at great risk of imprisonment to those involved.

As others have rightly pointed out, merely showing up with a deed and saying "This is mine now" is not going to work. But if the character can also fabricate a paper trail explaining why they have the deed, it might be possible. Something like a contract signed by both parties saying that money changed hands and the deed should be theirs. But this would require multiple forgeries, and would require the party to be able to convince the proper authorities that it is in fact the Noble's deed that is a forgery and he is trying to cheat them out of their money. Another thing to note is who the noble is: a good and respected man, or a known greedy schemer? Are there some beaurocratic palms that could be crossed with sacks of coin, so that the players are only saving some money and not getting riches for free? If the players succeed and aren't penalized with jail, have they now simply gained the ire of a wealthy noble house who knows exactly where to send the assassins?

All in all, very difficult with very high risk, many checks which could fail and result in serious penalties, and not something I would try as a character. But if you made it into something more of a plot that spans one or more sessions instead of just "Roll d20, get thousands of gp worth of free stuff" it could be something fun and believeable.

Well, I want there to be consequences for the characters if they do in fact try to go all in with this plan, but so far only the thief wants to do it so far.

[Armored Walrus]

I'll give an alternative perspective since you have enough people telling you it can't work.

First, they need to find a building that's either been abandoned for some time, or one that's for sale. If it's abandoned, just forging a deed may work if they can get it into the proper space for such a deed to be filed. So that when they move in and start conducting business out of it, anyone challenging their right to be there can go look up the deed and see that they have every right.

Sure, there may be triplicate forms filed in various offices, or one with the local government and one with the Crown. But bureaucracies don't operate too swiftly. They might get away with it for years before a tax collector comes along and puts two and two together.

For this particular play, though, it may be easier to just find out who the property is deeded to, and then forge documents to steal their identity.

Edit: Why is it abandoned, though? This might just be a poison pill that the party is swallowing.

For one that's for sale, it might be easier to get away with it "officially" but the unofficial consequences will likely be swift and severe. Just forge a bill of sale showing that your party paid the asking price for the place,and get it filed. When the rightful owner rightfully challenges you on it, there is official government documentation bearing his seal, showing that he sold you the property.

Congratulations, you've now made an enemy of a wealthy landowner. Let the fun begin.

Edit: Oh, and opposed check, Xanathar's and all that.

[Tiadoppler]

If they go all in with the plan, it becomes a "heist movie" subplot. That can be awesome, or it can be really dull for all the characters who aren't rogues, and don't have applicable skills.

Have them draw out a full plan:
Who do you have to fool?
How long do you have to fool them for?
What materials do you need?
What are our disguises? Escape routes? Fallback plans?
Who are the antagonist NPCs (the guy you're stealing from, investigators from the city guard, a really meticulous clerk, etc.)

As DM, figure out what crime(s) they're committing and what the punishment(s) would be in your city. Determine how effective the police is, how well documented property transfers are, where documents are stored, etc.


If the party's doing this all-out as a way to permanently secure a few thousand gp worth of property, I'd make the plot take 2-3 sessions to succeed.

If it's just one guy doing it, it could be a long-term downtime activity where he works on it alone. If possible, do it by email between sessions rather than part of the main campaign. In that case, I'd say it'd take 12+ sessions worth of in-between-session-downtime to complete, with suitable skill checks required.


If you don't want to deal with this at all, let the players buy a rundown warehouse in a bad neighborhood and fix it up in their downtime into a "adventurer's lair". It doesn't need to be more than a single floor rectangle 25'x50', and the PCs can fix the roof and buy wood to make interior walls fairly cheaply. Go to a real estate agent and say "we've got 200gp and we can kill our own vermin" and you too can have a soulless wooden box to turn into a Secret Hero Hideout.





First, they need to find a building that's either been abandoned for some time, or one that's for sale. If it's abandoned, just forging a deed may work if they can get it into the proper space for such a deed to be filed. So that when they move in and start conducting business out of it, anyone challenging their right to be there can go look up the deed and see that they have every right.

That's an excellent point. I'd add that adventurers tend to have quite a bit of currency compared to most commoners. It may be safer and even cheaper to buy a small building legally than run around using party resources to commit crimes, especially if only one PC really wants to forge documents/heist.

[Armored Walrus]

That's an excellent point. I'd add that adventurers tend to have quite a bit of currency compared to most commoners. It may be safer and even cheaper to buy a small building legally than run around using party resources to commit crimes, especially if only one PC really wants to forge documents/heist.

It takes a few levels to gather the kind of wealth needed to buy a building, but that's a good point. Even easier, even low level adventurers might have enough to convince the local sheriff and town clerk to avoid looking up the deed in the first place.

Or they can lease a building.

Edit: this topic is of special interest to me because I have one player interested in founding an Assassin's school, but the rest of the party doesn't care that much about it. So I'll be using a mix of downtime and short cut scenes during the game to establish it. Then it's a nice source of hooks for me later. In my game, though,they already own a small plot of land, having saved a town from the scheme of its previous owner.

[Kane0]

Basically an opposed check.
He makes an ability check (Forgery Kit). His result is the DC the reader has to beat with an Investigation (or insight, your call) check to determine that it's a forgery.

Alternatively if the paper has to pass through multiple hands to succeed you can just set a DC you think is appropriate. When in doubt DC 15, or DC 20 if the attempt is a long shot.

[Tiadoppler]

It takes a few levels to gather the kind of wealth needed to buy a building, but that's a good point. Even easier, even low level adventurers might have enough to convince the local sheriff and town clerk to avoid looking up the deed in the first place.

Or they can lease a building.


A good MO when creating a base of operations is:

> Find the cheapest, lousiest, ready-to-fall-down building in town.
> After midnight, vandalize it
> The social face goes to meet the owner who wants to sell it while the spellcasters break in and use Prestidigitation to soil/stink up the place.
> Social face shows up to look at house, looks disgusted, but shrugs and lies ("We've only got 50gp so I guess this is what we can afford... despite the smell.")
> Deed changes hands, owner leaves. Spellcasters end their Prestidigitation effects and spend half an hour chain-casting Mending. Druidcraft fixes the landscaping+garden around the house.
> Use house while in town, sell as picturesque flipped cottage on departure. Get 60gp.
> Repeat.

[Naanomi]

Your best bet may be finding someone who died and having a ‘surprise will’ bequeathing the house to ‘his distant but beloved nephew’... wouldn’t be guaranteed to work, but seems like the simplest place to start