How do you keep your AC relevant as a cleric? [Archive]

magicalmagicman

2018-02-19, 07:11 PM

BowStreetRunner

2018-02-19, 07:56 PM

Try picking up an items that gives your enemies a miss chance, like blur or something like that.

Falontani

2018-02-19, 08:17 PM

Obscuring Mist will give enemies miss chance in it; you can fight defensively or use the total defense action; definitely keep shield of faith handy. Boost your dex by 2 (cat's grace)

Finally remember to take a 5 ft step behind a fighter if you dont want to get hit, as if they have reach your fighter will grant you cover, otherwise they have to dance around the fighter, and its fun to watch

Fizban

2018-02-19, 08:31 PM

tyckspoon

2018-02-19, 08:34 PM

I'm not talking about TO stuff or max level max wealth stuff. I'm talking about normal play early levels.

Tower Shield + Full Plate. And I'm out of ideas.

This brings my 8 dex cleric to 21 AC, but i'm fighting creatures with +7-+9 to hit, which makes their chance of hitting me 35%-45% of the time, and this is levels 1-3.

Shield of Faith's +2 might be worth it...

Wealth wise I'm poor so I'm saving up for +1 enhancement to shield (1k), full plate (1k), and amulet of natural armor (2k), but that's 4k for only +3. By the time I get there I'm pretty sure the creature's to-hit is gonna skyrocket to +15-ish at which point it's still not good enough.

I'm trying to melee with this cleric without DMM:Persist (Tower shield is for spellcasting, I swap out to heavy shield when I melee), but with enemies having a 50% chance to hit, it's just too dangerous...

Define 'relevant'? I mean, if you were fighting a monster that made you miss more than half of all your attacks, you'd think that monster had pretty good AC, right? You're supposed to get hit a few times. There's a reason those Cure X Wounds spells exist, you're meant to use 'em from time to time.

You have the right sense of how you do it, tho - the basic AC comes from magic items and wealth, generally used to upgrade whatever the next most efficient source of AC is (usually that'll be in the order of something like base enhancement to armor/shield - Deflection/Natural AC bonuses - increased Dex.) It takes a few levels for expected wealth to let you do that, but that's how it works. You may just have a skewed expectation of how much AC you can get without actively spending other resources on it.

..take a look at the Law Devotion feat in Complete Champion, tho. Provides a (+3/5/7) bonus, scaling with level, to either AC or Attack. And it's a Sacred bonus, so it'll stack with just about everything. Can feed it Turn Undead uses to get more activations. There's also the Divine Shield feat which is another way to transfer Turn Undead into AC bonus, but it requires a decent Charisma bonus to get good results and is less action efficient to activate.

ericgrau

2018-02-19, 08:35 PM

An gnoll has a +3 to hit and it's the heaviest melee you should be fighting on your own. Maybe at level 3 your entire party could fight a troll with a +9 to hit and +4 on his secondary, but there's only 1. I agree with others that you have a pretty good AC already.

Try a least iron ward diamond from MiC for 500 gp. Masterwork armor is required for it. It gives DR 1/adamantine. 1 doesn't sound like a lot but remember that's per hit not per round. At levels 1-3 even against a CR 5 troll that's over 10% of the damage. Against a more common enemy like gnolls it's 15-25% of damage. That will help you through levels 1-3 until you can afford more AC.

Don't cast a defensive buff. You can buy a couple scrolls of protection from evil in case you get a buff round, but never ever waste round 1 on it. Don't reduce your damage by 25-50% just to reduce enemy damage by 25%. And obscuring mist helps out the enemy even more.

Fizban

2018-02-19, 10:04 PM

An gnoll has a +3 to hit and it's the heaviest melee you should be fighting on your own. Maybe at level 3 your entire party could fight a troll with a +9 to hit and +4 on his secondary, but there's only 1. I agree with others that you have a pretty good AC already.
Ogres and Dire Wolves swing in at +8 and +11 on CR 3 bruisers for solid damage, but it takes more than one hit to drop a fronliner and that means more chances for AC to prolong that fight.

I would generally expect the problem is in the rest of the party. If you've only got 3 people, or a cowardly rogue, or a wizard who refuses to cast spells, you're not gonna take anything down in time. If the cleric is doubling as the melee, what is everyone else doing?

Elder_Basilisk

2018-02-19, 10:09 PM

I'm a little confused about when you are having problems and what you are trying to accomplish. From the post, it sounds like you are concerned that your AC is not enough to keep you from getting hit in melee but the figures that you give are for tower shield and fullplate which you state is your spellcasting configuration and that you switch to a heavy shield for melee.

Now the reason that is important is that presumably your need for AC is greatest when in melee but if you don't want to use the tower shield in melee (presumably because of the penalties) then we should really be discussing the heavy shield configuration for that. Also, switching shields carries a pretty hefty action cost (unless you are houseruling) so most of the time you won't want two shields. You'll pick one and stick with it.

Speaking of action economy, a strict reading of the rules indicates that heavy shields themselves can cause problems because you need a hand free for spellcasting and if you have a weapon in one hand and shield in the other, you don't have a free hand. A lot of people will ignore that limit, but it may be something to keep in mind. You can also somewhat get around it by starting combat with your hand open in case you need to cast spells and then drawing your weapon when you want to smack down. That means a strict separation between "I'm casting" and "I'm fighting" rather than freely switching back and forth but a lot of times you can work with that. The alternative is using a light shield or buckler and switching to holding the weapon in your shield hand (as a free action--see FAQ) when casting a spell then switching back when you're done.

That said, you're pretty much on track with what you can practically do to increase your AC. You have the disadvantage of running with a Dex penalty which is going to keep your AC in the not quite comfortable range rather than the well defended range. Long term you will throw gloves of Dex at that problem, but it'll hurt for a long time.

So. Fullplate +8. Heavy shield +2. Dex -1. You're running at 19 base until you can find magic items or start casting long duration spells.

The efficient ways of improving that are: +1 enhancement to armor and shield. 1,000 each. Deflection bonus on a ring. 2,000 but you probably won't because this is the easiest thing to duplicate with spells. Amulet of natural armor 2000 which is hard to duplicate with your spells but conflicts with a periapt of wisdom. After that it's +2 armor and +2 shield, dusty rose prism ioun stone, gloves of Dex +2 and you're largely done with early game options.

The trick for a cleric is usually leveraging your spells to improve your AC etc. At lvl 1-3, protection from evil is the go to spell in most campaigns. +2 AC will usually make a noticable difference in your AC. 19-21 in your case (against +7) is the difference between a 45% hit rate and a 35% hit rate. Almost 1/2 to about 1/3 is a big deal. Battle cleric is actually one of the best ways to go in a low wealth game because you can use spells to get most of the plusses that PCs depend on.

At level 5, two key spells come in: magic vestment and magic circle (vs evil is usually the best in most campaigns). Assuming you don't have both +1 armor and a +1 shield, that's +3 AC. Keep in mind that magic vestment is 1 hour/level. You will probably want a lesser rod of extend spell to boost the duration rather than taking the enhancement to +2. (Just stack abilities on it when you have cash and use magic vestment for the plusses).
At level 6, shield of faith goes to +3 which is a big deal for you with +1 fullplate, a magic vestmented heavy shield, and shield of faith, you'll be looking at AC 24 which is nice. Toss in haste from the wizard and you've got 25.

Level 7 brings recitation online. It's a generally great buff and pushes you to 28 with haste. Level 8 pushes your magic vestments up one each and pushes your usual ceiling to AC 30. Even for level 8 monsters that can be tough to hit.

Level 9 mostly brings quickened divine favor but righteous might gives a bunch of good defenses along with pushing your AC up further.

Level 12 pushes your shield of faith up to +4 and you should start thinking about using a lesser rod of extend spell to boost a mass shield of faith for your whole party. And mass conviction to boost saves into the stratosphere too.

magicalmagicman

2018-02-20, 04:43 AM

Thanks for your input everyone.

Just that some creatures with multiple attacks hit like a truck and even with like 30% hit chance, because of their multiple attack I get hurt once or twice a round, and it forces me to withdraw.

But I guess that was the intent of the designers.

I was just wondering if there was a way for low level clerics with 8 dex to hit that untouchable AC height.

Eldariel

2018-02-20, 05:00 AM

Most efficient means to improve your AC are the Devotion feats in CC. Law Devotion stands out as an outstanding AC buff for more important fights that doubles as an attack buff.

But yes, what you're observing is the reality of AC; you can't keep yourself safe reliably with it, much less with 8 Dex (12 would be +2 but you probably can't afford the stats). On higher levels, Magic Vestment will mostly negate the issue but on low levels, melee kinda sucks.

The only defensive spell I'd potentially bother with on these levels in a prebuff situation is Protection from Evil. Others simply aren't worth your sparse slots yet. Rather use those slots and actions to cast spells that disable your enemies like Cause Fear or Silence.

Fizban

2018-02-20, 05:01 AM

Again, what sort of creatures- and for that matter, how much is hitting like a truck? CR 3 creatures with multiple attacks don't hit like a truck, so you might be fighting optimized or over-leveled monsters.

If you want to crush AC at low levels, then like most things in 3.5, one class won't do the job. Dipping Totemist for the Wormtail Belt is probably about the most cost efficient, giving a constant enhancement to natural armor that you won't beat with an item for quite a while.

There's also the old standby of Luminous Armor, the 2nd level sanctified spell (Book of Exalted Deeds). If you're a Good cleric you can cast it spontaneously, and while the armor bonus doesn't stack with armor, the penalty on melee attacks does. But it costs you a 2nd level slot, and str damage when the spell ends.

DeTess

2018-02-20, 05:07 AM

I'm not talking about TO stuff or max level max wealth stuff. I'm talking about normal play early levels.

I was just wondering if there was a way for low level clerics with 8 dex to hit that untouchable AC height.

Pick one.

Now that I've got that out of my system, there's a couple more things you can do to increase AC. First of all, getting a +1 enhancement on your shield and armor will only cost you 1000gp a piece, which should be doable in one or two levels. The combat expertise feat is generally regarded as suboptimal, but if you want your AC to be as high as possible, it can be of use here.

Mechanus gear (planar handbook) is suit of heavy armor with a base AC-bonus of +10, but it really slows down your speed. Your DM might also not allow you to buy it.

Then of course, you could mumblemumblemumblemumble Kobold mumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumble Wish mumblemumble Candle of invocation mumblemumblemumble Wish mumble Wish mumblemumblemumblemumble Serpent Kingdoms mumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumble and at the end of that trick you should have about 10,000 Dex.

magicalmagicman

2018-02-20, 05:08 AM

Again, what sort of creatures- and for that matter, how much is hitting like a truck? CR 3 creatures with multiple attacks don't hit like a truck, so you might be fighting optimized or over-leveled monsters.

The wounded owlbear from Age of Worms. And the 5 man band of unsavory figures in the Feral Dog, each having like +7 to hit.

If we're already fighting +9 and +7 to hits in this module, then things are gonna become very bad very soon.

Eldariel

2018-02-20, 05:46 AM

Don't forget, if you're just absorbing hits, total defense gives you +4 AC. Defensive Fighting is basically never worth it unless you outlevel your opponents tremendously or have a class feature improving it, but you can take total defense just fine if the enemy is dumb enough to keep hitting you (Owlbears aren't very smart so there it might work). Hell, you can just hide behind your Tower Shield while it tries to rend through it. Vs. more intelligent opponents that won't work though.

That said, again, Law Devotion would be +3 AC/attack for 1 minute, replenishable by burning Turn Undead uses, swift action to activate. Protection from Evil is +2 more, strictly better than Shield of Faith on this level (Resistance-bonuses and mind control and summon protections). But again, a single spell disabling the opponent tends to be more efficient and e.g. Owlbear has a crap Will-save so Cause Fear or Command would do the job just fine. Let alone non-core options like Rigor Mortis or Ice Slick.

Fizban

2018-02-20, 06:22 AM

The wounded owlbear from Age of Worms. And the 5 man band of unsavory figures in the Feral Dog, each having like +7 to hit.

If we're already fighting +9 and +7 to hits in this module, then things are gonna become very bad very soon.
Ah, thank you. Yeah, Owlbear's at CR 4 and pretty solid, though it could be as bad as Brown Bear. Dunno about the 5 man band, but in order to have 7 AB they'd need to have been outnumbering and outleveling the party, which is some terrible encounter design, especially before they party has any significant AoEs (and they do it in modules all the freaking time :smallfurious:). You might very well be right about future encounters getting worse then.

Might I suggest therefore, not playing that game. . . as in, getting something else to tank for you! If you're strapped for cash you probably can't start leveraging warhorses, but with cl 3 you might be able to start summoning things effectively. Conjure Ice Beast (Frostburn) in particular has abnormally high hp thanks to being constructs, or if you happen to be Evil enough, Summon Undead 2 would let you summon your own skeletal Owlbears.

Would still like to know about the rest of the party. Owlbears have no range, so why engage it in melee?

emeraldstreak

2018-02-20, 06:29 AM

You're missing Barkskin, Alter Self from the strong boosters in the Core. The former can be an oil and has decent duration, the latter has to be accessed by relevant domain or Magic domain. Save the 2k for amulet of natural armor and invest in stronger Barkskin oils, see how it works out with the pacing of battles in your campaign.

Out of the Core there are really strong options.

IMO getting hit 30%+ isn't AC tanking. At that point you're HP tanking, just getting some extra mitigation from AC.

magicalmagicman

2018-02-20, 07:16 AM

IMO getting hit 30%+ isn't AC tanking. At that point you're HP tanking, just getting some extra mitigation from AC.

Yeah that's why I was wondering how to keep your AC relevant to AC tank instead of hp tank.

Law Devotion is a great answer, but it does require either a domain or feat investment so I'm going to have to really think it over.

Conjure Ice Beast (Frostburn) in particular has abnormally high hp thanks to being constructs, or if you happen to be Evil enough, Summon Undead 2 would let you summon your own skeletal Owlbears.

That's what I'm trying to do but with my pathetic -1 initiative I just can't get the spell off before enemies get in range and start interrupting my casting. I have 0 concentration because of my low, low stats (this DM is obsessed with 25 point buy) and my skill points are required elsewhere.

At character creation I assumed that the Cleric's high ac from fullplate and tower shield would be more than sufficient to let me cast 1 round casting time spells without being interrupted, but with 3+ attacks in a full attack the odds are not in my favor.

So in such situations I have to resort to melee because I can't get that conjure ice beast off. As to why I was engaging the owl bear in melee, it beat my initiative and engaged me first and there was no way my 20ft speed would let me get enough distance to get a spell off.

We're actually a 3man band, cleric sorcerer and some kind of gish I don't know the exact build. The module was designed for 4 players so we figured it wouldn't matter that much. The gish can't take a beating.

All the advice in this thread is solid. Just doing total defense actions and step up to tank when the gish's defense shatters should be good enough until our sorcerer gets some better spells.

I was just surprised my assumption about clerics having super high ac early game turned out to be a fallacy.

sleepyphoenixx

2018-02-20, 08:22 AM

At character creation I assumed that the Cleric's high ac from fullplate and tower shield would be more than sufficient to let me cast 1 round casting time spells without being interrupted, but with 3+ attacks in a full attack the odds are not in my favor.

So in such situations I have to resort to melee because I can't get that conjure ice beast off. As to why I was engaging the owl bear in melee, it beat my initiative and engaged me first and there was no way my 20ft speed would let me get enough distance to get a spell off.

1 round casting time spells have no place in melee, no matter your AC. And to avoid taking full attacks you should 5ft step away from enemies (a reach weapon helps), leaving them unable to full attack you unless they have pounce.
In fact a reach weapon will probably help you more than the +2 AC from a shield.
At higher levels you can get some very nice AC going by getting a Monk's Belt and stacking (Greater) Luminous Armor on top, but it'll be a while before you can afford one.

Tripping can help a lot too if you have some strength and can get Improved Trip into your build and use a reach weapon, though having 8 dex isn't optimal - ideally you want to trip on AoO's so you can use your turn to cast.
It's also not an optimal path for your cleric unless you're limited to core only, but it seems that nobody in your party is taking up that role.
If all else fails you could also spend a feat on Wild Cohort to get a meatshield between yourself and the enemies, especially since your party seems to be lacking one. A Riding Dog is a tremendous force multiplier at low levels and it can even trip for you.

I think the problem you have isn't your AC, it's that nobody in your party uses BFC. You should only really take full attacks as an exception and leaving enemies free to act until you've whittled their hp down is generally a bad idea.
That should be the sorcerers job because his spell list is better suited for it, but you can make do if he doesn't want to.
You get a few options even at low levels. Clerics get Ice Slick as a first level spell and you can spontaneously cast sanctified spells, including Vision of Punishment - a swift action save-or-lose, but only against evil targets.
At level 5 you'll get Laogzed's Breath (cone-shaped Stinking Cloud) too.

Eldariel

2018-02-20, 10:04 AM

That's what I'm trying to do but with my pathetic -1 initiative I just can't get the spell off before enemies get in range and start interrupting my casting. I have 0 concentration because of my low, low stats (this DM is obsessed with 25 point buy) and my skill points are required elsewhere.

At character creation I assumed that the Cleric's high ac from fullplate and tower shield would be more than sufficient to let me cast 1 round casting time spells without being interrupted, but with 3+ attacks in a full attack the odds are not in my favor.

So in such situations I have to resort to melee because I can't get that conjure ice beast off. As to why I was engaging the owl bear in melee, it beat my initiative and engaged me first and there was no way my 20ft speed would let me get enough distance to get a spell off.

You should move away, take the AoO and cast. Enemy moves and attacks. This way you only take two attacks. Always take AoOs from enemies with 3+ attacks in melee, minimizing how many attacks they get.

We're actually a 3man band, cleric sorcerer and some kind of gish I don't know the exact build. The module was designed for 4 players so we figured it wouldn't matter that much. The gish can't take a beating.

All the advice in this thread is solid. Just doing total defense actions and step up to tank when the gish's defense shatters should be good enough until our sorcerer gets some better spells.

I was just surprised my assumption about clerics having super high ac early game turned out to be a fallacy.

It is the highest AC you can get on this level without Dex or investment. Your assumption is not wrong. The mistake is assuming AC alone is a sufficient defense; without persistomancy or dumping your offense entirely, you will face enemies with high enough AB to hit you.

The best melee defenses on these levels are Abrupt Jaunt and Mirror Image. Sadly AC trails far, far behind but it's still nice to have. Not a bad choice, particularly as further increases have increased gains. Things like Law Devotion are worth extra with a good base.

Fizban

2018-02-20, 10:17 AM

That's what I'm trying to do but with my pathetic -1 initiative I just can't get the spell off before enemies get in range and start interrupting my casting. I have 0 concentration because of my low, low stats (this DM is obsessed with 25 point buy) and my skill points are required elsewhere. . . We're actually a 3man band, cleric sorcerer and some kind of gish I don't know the exact build. The module was designed for 4 players so we figured it wouldn't matter that much. The gish can't take a beating.
Indeed, the hits keep coming. Nothing wrong with 25 point buy, in fact keeping to that is one of the ways to reduce. . . clerics (and other characters) being able to take over other roles, especially at low levels. And you've got an undersized party with no one else who can take a hit, no reliable ranged or sneak attack to spam or damage race, just a sorc at their worst level and a snowflake who isn't ready yet. If you can survive to 4th things should get waaay better once the sorc gets a 2nd level spell, even more if the gish is a wizard and also gets their 2nd level spell.

I was just surprised my assumption about clerics having super high ac early game turned out to be a fallacy.
Attack bonuses ramp up fast as you transition from CR 1/2 to CR 2+, going from starting gold wealth AC to 900gp AC to 2,700gp AC. Fast forward to CR 10 and you've got say, Hydras with only +15, and Fire Giants at +20/15/10- vs say 25 with shield. AC scaling has slowed, but attack bonus isn't as huge as people think (at least on stock MM monsters), as long as you don't expect more than 50% miss chance without actual character investment. Some AC boosting feats and/or PrCs and a good buff and you can still perk it right up. A cleric has easy access to the buff, but no bonus feats nor PrCs that don't also lose casting if you want to boost AC.

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-20, 02:17 PM

Some things to ask, simply because I can. Did you take Tower Shield Proficiency? It's a completely different proficiency from standard "Shield Proficience" and is usually a waste to take unless you get it from class levels (like Fighter).

By what you're describing, you're playing in a mid-powered, high stakes game that is designed to be gritty (even with 4 players). If you have the blessing from your DM to do an ability score rework, I would suggest something along the lines of 12/12/12/10/16/9 if you don't intend on using your Turn Undead for actual undead turning OR 10/12/12/10/16/11 if you are intending on using Turn Undead. If you're not allowed to rework, ignore this.

I also would suggest you pick either focusing on your casting or focusing on being a melee cleric. As others have said, taking a 1 round spell and trying to cast it in melee is like painting a target on your chest with a sign that says "Disrupt my casting please". Buff and smack would likely be more useful for you and your party at this time. Suggestions for boosting your AC and melee fighting would be shield of faith, Entropic Shield (if you're facing a lot of ranged assailents), Protection from Evil (or whatever alignment you're fighting), and Elation (give you a +2 Str and Dex bringing your AC up). It would probably be best for your party if you were a front line fighter now to soak up the attacks and maintain your position as a threat and then later switch your spells to more battlefield control/debuff spells when you've got the chance.

If you did sink a feat into tower shield proficiency, I would switch that feat for something actually useful. For all of the bad things people have to say about it, I've personally gotten very good returns for the input on scribe scroll. For many first and second level spells, the cost is negligible and it's very nice to have for utility purposes or for combat you weren't expecting after expending a lot of your prepared spells. Alternatively, if you have a school of magic that offers saves that you're consistantly using, Spell Focus wouldn't be a bad option. Shield Specialization (Heavy Shields) and Shield ward would get your shield's bonus to your AC to your Touch AC and your Grapple, Disarm, Trip, Overrun, and bull rush defenses as well. It's not optimal for anything but AC and defense, but it improves your AC another point at all times with any heavy shield, no need to keep lugging a tower shield around as that 1 point of AC is probably not worth the 45 lbs that a tower shield weighs, plus the 50 lbs of full plate, plus the 10-15 lbs of heavy sheild, plus weapons, plus gear, etc. I know most people don't watch encumberance, but you may well be over your heavy weight limit with that much.

As far as keeping your AC relevant, you'll need to get your Dex up to a 12 somehow to maximize your dex bonus to AC, Shield of Faith is available to you now and gets you a deflection bonus. Protection from X spells are available as well and last longer, but are targeted against a certain alignment of creature so pick your poison.

Troacctid

2018-02-20, 02:26 PM

Magic Vestment is a good AC boost and can be cast on both armor and shield. Luminous Armor helps against melee attacks. There are also several celestials that you can summon or call to provide a Magic Circle against Evil effect. (Particularly good if you can somehow cast Call Faithful Servants and get a small army of them on an essentially permanent basis!)

ericgrau

2018-02-20, 02:34 PM

Yeah that's why I was wondering how to keep your AC relevant to AC tank instead of hp tank.

Law Devotion is a great answer, but it does require either a domain or feat investment so I'm going to have to really think it over.

That's what I'm trying to do but with my pathetic -1 initiative I just can't get the spell off before enemies get in range and start interrupting my casting. I have 0 concentration because of my low, low stats (this DM is obsessed with 25 point buy) and my skill points are required elsewhere.
Really tanking should almost always be a combo of HP and AC. Plus you do block the owlbear's bite more reliably, and other foes are similar. If you want to cast in melee you really do need concentration. Never getting hit at all so you can cast in melee is a bit too lofty of a goal.

Isn't 25 pb normal and the same as rolled stats? Maybe you're just spoiled from others and feel like you need an 18 even when that's a rare roll? It can be done easily:
Wis>con>str>dex>cha&int. A 14 is 6 points and is the best bang for the buck. More is just another +1 and not necessarily worth it.
14 wis = 6
14 con = 6
14 str = 6
12 dex = 4
8 cha = 0 (and you can still turn undead almost as well as 14 cha, don't worry)
11 int = 3. Or 10 int and the +1 to whatever else that's below 14.
15 wis and then increasing wis to 16 wis at level 4 is another possibility. Then you do 12 str. Maybe a 12 con or a 15 str instead, but I think you need to decide whether you will melee weapon more or cast more and not expect both 100%. A high stat of 15 and decreasing from there is pretty standard for rolled stats.

But too late now.

Your skills should be concentration and... just concentration. Everything else including knowledge(religion) is a fluff requirement at best. Spellcraft is kinda nice. This part can at least be fixed after a long time. Or maybe your DM will be nice and let you reskill. Say you screwed up and you weren't realizing that melee casting = absolutely need concentration. In fact the combat casting feat will be really handy until level 15, and by then the campaign might be over anyway.

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-20, 03:05 PM

Your skills should be concentration and... just concentration. Everything else including knowledge(religion) is a fluff requirement at best. Spellcraft is kinda nice. This part can at least be fixed after a long time. Or maybe your DM will be nice and let you reskill. Say you screwed up and you weren't realizing that melee casting = absolutely need concentration. In fact the combat casting feat will be really handy until level 15, and by then the campaign might be over anyway.

Well, spellcraft is nice for identifying spells being cast and Knowledge Religion is nice for identifying undead stuffs, but you don't need a really high int for that stuff. Clerics get 2+int/level and if human you get another +1/level (x4 at 1st) so you can easily get maxed Concentration, Maxed Spellcraft and split 2/2 in two knowledge skills, getting you enough for a solid baseline to make checks. I would say though that maxing your concentration is very important. Casing spells on a ship requires concentration checks, casting spells in melee require it, casting spells in anything but a perfect situation basically require it so yeah, max that concentration. :smallsmile:

Eldariel

2018-02-20, 03:08 PM

Really tanking should almost always be a combo of HP and AC. Plus you do block the owlbear's bite more reliably, and other foes are similar. If you want to cast in melee you really do need concentration. Never getting hit at all so you can cast in melee is a bit too lofty of a goal.

Isn't 25 pb normal and the same as rolled stats?

25pb is the same as rolled stats without the reroll rules. With the reroll rules, they average about 28pb, which is substantially better for multitasking. Sadly low PB simply punishes playing suboptimal roles. Specialists get their 18s anyways; a caster Cleric wouldn't be having this problem but the system punishes him for playing an essentially suboptimal role. Though yes, 15/14/14/13/8/8 would be fairly solid.

ericgrau

2018-02-20, 03:15 PM

25pb is the same as rolled stats without the reroll rules. With the reroll rules, they average about 28pb, which is substantially better for multitasking. Sadly low PB simply punishes playing suboptimal roles. Specialists get their 18s anyways; a caster Cleric wouldn't be having this problem but the system punishes him for playing an essentially suboptimal role. Though yes, 15/14/14/13/8/8 would be fairly solid.

Ok so he's out 3 pb. It's still manageable.

25 pb still seems better than getting the elite array which is similar to average rolled stats: 15,14,13,12,10,8. Even numbers are better than odd numbers.

EDIT: I was bored and it was easy so I wrote a program to figure it out. 4d6b3, reroll +0 total mod or lower. I got 16,14,13,12,11,10. Technically that is 10+6+5+4+3+2=30 pb. However the dump stat and the odd rolls aren't really worth anything: 26 pb. And pb gives you a little more flexibility whereas with rolls you're just stuck with it and have to build around it. 25 pb seems fair if not a little generous. 13, 11 and 10 are a hair better than 12,10 and 8, so I suppose 25 pb is fair.

And the array was closer to 16,14,12.5,11.5,11,10, but as luck would have it the great majority of the rounding was upward. Rounding added 1.25 or 1.42 pb to the total.

And the DMG page 169 says 25 pb is standard.

magicalmagicman

2018-02-20, 03:21 PM

I did not sink a feat into tower shield proficiency. My strategy was to cast conjure ice beast and then switch to heavy shield to melee.

I have to have religion and spellcraft maxed because we are a 3man group in a 4man adventure module designed to take 4 people level 1-20. In other words, we will be hitting epic levels before the module ends.

Rolling stats and dropping the lowest one equates to 38 point buy. 28 point buy if dropping the lowest is not allowed, or something like that. I remember reading this math on these forums.

My stats
STR 11 - have enough carrying capacity for tower shield + full plate
DEX 8
CON 14 - All characters must have 14 con minimum
INT 14 - Religion, The Planes, Spellcraft, UMD, and Bluff (going into Malconvoker)
WIS 14 - Dropped from 15 to boost strength.
CHA 12 - I need it for... stuff...

In hindsight guess I should've put know:religion into concentration, and once Bluff hits 4 I allocate those points into know;religion, and 8 levels before level 20 I allocate concentration points into know:religion.

Actually my DM is lenient, he should let me re-skill.

ericgrau

2018-02-20, 04:03 PM

That will certainly help. You still may need to make a DC ~20 concentration check every now and then. Every 1-2 rounds in another owlbear fight or similar. Or at least DC ~15.

6 (ranks) + 2 (con) = +8 modifier. So success a little under half the time.

When you can afford it and if items aren't too restricted you can pick up anklets of translocation for 1,400 gp to pop behind an ally before your round 1 summons. Round 2 you move forward. And march in the middle of your party so that there's less chance you get charged in the first place. I know that might be hard with the squishy gish there, especially since whoever attacks him round 1 might ignore you and chase him round 2. But between you and the ice beast at least you'll have enough meat in front that worst case he can withdraw while you two take blows long enough for him to attack round 3-4.

Btw, is ice beast a much better summon than normal? I know summon monster usually isn't that good but picking the right monster with the ice beast template might do something nice? I read high HP, but does it have an attack that will make enemies not ignore it? Can it hit monster AC? Though something halfway passable is better than nothing. It looks like you are struggling through low level with no dedicated melee and just need to survive until your builds come online. But if it can't hit at all you may need to try a weak attack spell or something instead. Like inflict X wounds.

RoboEmperor

2018-02-20, 04:26 PM

Btw, is ice beast a much better summon than normal? I know summon monster 1 usually isn't that good but picking the right monster with the ice beast template might do something nice? I read high HP, but does it have an attack that will make enemies not ignore it? Can it hit monster AC? Though something halfway passable is better than nothing. It looks like you are struggling through low level with no dedicated melee and just need to survive until your builds come online.

Ice Beast >>>>>>>>> Summon monster and nature's ally combined.

1. 31hp ice wolves at level 1
2. 1d6 cold damage aura every round. So it's essentially a damage over time fireball.
3. No randomness. Level 2 creates 2 ice wolves. Level 3 creates FOUR ice wolves. So a level 5 cleric will deal 20d6 cold damage over 5 rounds with one spell, and the damage over time isn't a factor because the ice wolves will surround and survive.
4. Attack/Damage is normal. Ice Wolves still have +3 to hit and 1d6+1 for damage. So this is on top of the 1d6/round cold damage.
5. AC is improved. Wolves have +2NA. Ice Beast Wolves have +4NA.
6. Ice Beasts can instead of doing aura damage, can engulf a creature if they fail their REFLEX save. No grapple check. Fail reflex and you are pinned while taking 2d6 cold damage a round until you win a grapple. Then you are not pinned but still grappled until you win a 2nd grapple check. This shutsdown spellcasters like no tomorrow. Summon a hippogriff next to a spellcaster, he engulfs it, spellcaster becomes worthless for the rest of the fight.

I have literally solo'd EL2 combat encounters with my level 1 cleric with this spell (he had conjuration domain for +2 CL for creation spells). Summon an ice wolf and ram them into the middle of the enemy. AC be damned they all die to the cold aura damage alone and have no way of dealing 31hp damage in 3 rounds.

So this level 1 cleric can deal 3d6 cold damage with some physical damage along with an unkillable meatbag with a level 1 spell. I had 2 level 1 spell slots, so these wolves in addition to dealing 6d6 cold damage, could flank the opponents with impunity because AoOs don't mean jack with their hp and AC.

Summon monster and Nature's ally doesn't even remotely come close early game.

Later levels however, when SLAs become amazing, conjure ice beast fails, but at that point you can simply switch spells out and prepare summon monster instead of conjure ice beast.

Eldariel

2018-02-20, 04:37 PM

Ice Beast >>>>>>>>> Summon monster and nature's ally combined.

1. 31hp ice wolves at level 1
2. 1d6 cold damage aura every round. So it's essentially a damage over time fireball.
3. No randomness. Level 2 creates 2 ice wolves. Level 3 creates FOUR ice wolves. So a level 5 cleric will deal 20d6 cold damage over 5 rounds with one spell, and the damage over time isn't a factor because the ice wolves will surround and survive.
4. Attack/Damage is normal. Ice Wolves still have +3 to hit and 1d6+1 for damage. So this is on top of the 1d6/round cold damage.
5. AC is improved. Wolves have +2NA. Ice Beast Wolves have +4NA.
6. Ice Beasts can instead of doing aura damage, can engulf a creature if they fail their REFLEX save. No grapple check. Fail reflex and you are pinned while taking 2d6 cold damage a round until you win a grapple. Then you are not pinned but still grappled until you win a 2nd grapple check. This shutsdown spellcasters like no tomorrow. Summon a hippogriff next to a spellcaster, he engulfs it, spellcaster becomes worthless for the rest of the fight.

I have literally solo'd EL3 combat encounters with my level 1 cleric with this spell (he had conjuration domain for +2 CL for creation spells). Summon an ice wolf and ram them into the middle of the enemy. AC be damned they all die to the cold aura damage alone and have no way of dealing 31hp damage in 3 rounds.

So this level 1 cleric can deal 3d6 cold damage with some physical damage along with an unkillable meatbag with a level 1 spell. I had 2 level 1 spell slots, so these wolves in addition to dealing 6d6 cold damage, could flank the opponents with impunity because AoOs don't mean jack with their hp and AC.

Summon monster and Nature's ally doesn't even remotely come close early game.

Later levels however, when SLAs become amazing, conjure ice beast fails, but at that point you can simply switch spells out and prepare summon monster instead of conjure ice beast.

To extrapolate, the flat HP bonus of Constructs really shines on low levels (for both, Summon Desert Ally and Conjure Ice Beast). As Conjure Ice Beast is Conjuration: Creation, you can't benefit of Augment Summoning and their ilk (Greenbound Summoning with duration increasers pulls ahead for this reason - Wall of Thorns and company) but raw out of the gate it's a superb AOE damage spell (those Centipedes are tanky as hell) with some alternate options (most saliently the mentioned Engulf). At absolutely zero investment. Frostburn is a book that really blessed (heh) Clerics with Ice Slick, Conjure Ice Beast, Shivering Touch, etc. Though I'd be leery of using the last one, the first two are just really strong but playable.

ericgrau

2018-02-20, 04:42 PM

Ah, so mass summons + cold aura. It makes sense that there'd be a trick like that to it. I saw so many options I wasn't sure which one was the go-to. Plus using the SNA list even as a cleric... I saw then immediately forgot before asking.

emeraldstreak

2018-02-20, 04:46 PM

I did not sink a feat into tower shield proficiency.

You'll need your other hand free to cast somatic components if holding tower/heavy shield.

At any rate tower shield isn't worth it in any game that doesn't run "targeting" shenanigans. Better invest in psionic tattoes (potion-equivalent) of force screen (Shield equivalent) and enjoy +4 AC that doesn't interfere with you in any way.

Elder_Basilisk

2018-02-20, 05:01 PM

Looking at those stats, you really don't have any business being in melee. With a decent AC, you can avoid getting slaughtered if an enemy gets within reach of you, but going toe to toe with a mace is not going to work out for you. 14 strength is pretty marginal in 3.5 (16 in Pathfinder due to more generous racial stat bonuses etc). Anything less and it doesn't matter what feats you take or spells you use, you're still going to be inadequate.

If your party can't keep you off the front lines, bad touch (inflicts, curses, etc) is the only way you're going to contribute enough to beat your enemies and a 14 base wisdom is going to hurt there too.

RoboEmperor

2018-02-20, 05:45 PM

You'll need your other hand free to cast somatic components if holding tower/heavy shield.

At any rate tower shield isn't worth it in any game that doesn't run "targeting" shenanigans. Better invest in psionic tattoes (potion-equivalent) of force screen (Shield equivalent) and enjoy +4 AC that doesn't interfere with you in any way.

I run tower shields all the time, even on arcane casters.

Cleric + Fullplate + Tower Shield + Reserve Feat = Awesomeness. There is literally no combat downside for having a Tower Shield.

Same with Arcane Casters. Tower Shields increase flat-foot AC, casters can drop them easily before casting a spell, and pick them back up when they start slinging Fiery Burst.

emeraldstreak

2018-02-21, 07:19 AM

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-21, 07:31 AM

Well, tower shields without proficiency are pretty garbage if you intend on making any kind of attack rolls. They apply a -2 penalty to attack just because of how big and cumbersome they are. Then, if you're not proficient, they apply their massive -10 armor check penalty as well. Then, again, they weigh a whopping 45 lbs. Most casters that aren't clerics or druids don't have the strength to lug that around regularly without increasing their equipmnet burden and reducing their speed, increasing their check penalty. Unless you're balling out with a 13 strength and literally NOTHING else, you can stay in light burden and take no penalty.

I'm going to second Emeraldstreak and say that shield/force screen would serve you better and if you're DM is kindly enough to allow you to rework, consider taking the Magic domain for free and unlimited access to wizard/sorcerer spells from wands, rods, and staffs without any checks.

Zaq

2018-02-21, 12:56 PM

I run tower shields all the time, even on arcane casters.

Cleric + Fullplate + Tower Shield + Reserve Feat = Awesomeness. There is literally no combat downside for having a Tower Shield.

Same with Arcane Casters. Tower Shields increase flat-foot AC, casters can drop them easily before casting a spell, and pick them back up when they start slinging Fiery Burst.

Using a shield that you're not proficient with applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all STR- and DEX-based ability and skill checks. Initiative is a DEX-based ability check, so lugging around a tower shield (ACP -10) when you aren't proficient with it means that you're basically going way, way late in the initiative order. Probably dead last. Maybe that works for you, but I kind of like my casters to be able to set the tone of the encounter before the enemies get to do whatever they want. (BFC works way better before the enemy is in position, save-or-lose spells are more efficient if they prevent an enemy from going at all, and even blasting is often easier before your allies move in and risk friendly fire.)

I can maybe see an argument for taking a -2 on init for a +2 to AC, maybe, but a -10 is way more initiative penalty than I'm comfortable with.

RoboEmperor

2018-02-21, 01:52 PM

I'm going to second Emeraldstreak and say that shield/force screen would serve you better and if you're DM is kindly enough to allow you to rework, consider taking the Magic domain for free and unlimited access to wizard/sorcerer spells from wands, rods, and staffs without any checks.

One can't be used if caught by surprise and requires a turn and a spell slot. The other does not, and spell slots are a precious commodity at level 1 (the level I'm talking about).

Using a shield that you're not proficient with applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all STR- and DEX-based ability and skill checks. Initiative is a DEX-based ability check, so lugging around a tower shield (ACP -10) when you aren't proficient with it means that you're basically going way, way late in the initiative order. Probably dead last. Maybe that works for you, but I kind of like my casters to be able to set the tone of the encounter before the enemies get to do whatever they want. (BFC works way better before the enemy is in position, save-or-lose spells are more efficient if they prevent an enemy from going at all, and even blasting is often easier before your allies move in and risk friendly fire.)

I can maybe see an argument for taking a -2 on init for a +2 to AC, maybe, but a -10 is way more initiative penalty than I'm comfortable with.

I've seen this argument before and it's the way I thought it was but some people here convinced me otherwise. Something about Initiative is NOT A CHECK or something like that.

Even if a DM says it is, this is super early levels we're talking about. Going first isn't all that important. In my opinion not dying to the surprise round is more important than going first.

Even at level 3, throwing Web first or last doesn't really matter because receiving a round of damage at the start isn't nearly as fatal early game as it is late game.

Mage Armor + Tower Shield makes a good enough AC until I hit 3rd level spells and no longer need to worry about resource management, and 18+ AC is good enough for throwing around fiery bursts and surviving a few arrows or melee attacks. At 1st level I don't think you can afford even mage armor however.

As for encumbrance, as long as you're a light load after you ditch the tower shield I think it's fine.

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-21, 02:09 PM

One can't be used if caught by surprise and requires a turn and a spell slot. The other does not, and spell slots are a precious commodity at level 1 (the level I'm talking about).

fair enough. This is a houserule, but I've played where some DMs don't allow shield bonuses to AC on Flat-Footed AC because you can't really defend yourself with a shield if you can't see the attack to block the incoming blow. I kinda like it, but at the same time I kinda don't so I just use the rules as they're written.

EDIT: I forgot this in my original response. I would, as a cleric, rather just use a Heavy Shield. If I need the additional AC boost then I have my magical backup or just use another spell that gives me a different additional bonus.

I've seen this argument before and it's the way I thought it was but some people here convinced me otherwise. Something about Initiative is NOT A CHECK or something like that.

The rules to beg to differ that Initiative isn't a check.

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll.

The rules specifically say that an Initiative check is a Dexterity check which means that the line in Armor Proficiencies that says:

A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

Applies to initiative checks since initiative is a Dexterity-based ability check. I didn't believe it myself at first, but then when i read it all of the verbage is pretty much spot on for it applying. And it even makes sense. If you're not used to reacting normally while using certain armors or shields you probably won't be able to react without penalty.

RoboEmperor

2018-02-21, 02:21 PM

The rules specifically say that an Initiative check is a Dexterity check which means that the line in Armor Proficiencies that says:

Maybe it was a different argument, I don't really remember. I'm someone who doesn't care about initiative so i'm not a good person to debate this with XD.

But yeah your quotes make me believe you apply your nonproficient armor check penalty to your initiative.

EDIT: I forgot this in my original response. I would, as a cleric, rather just use a Heavy Shield. If I need the additional AC boost then I have my magical backup or just use another spell that gives me a different additional bonus.

If you want to melee, yes, but I stand by that if you're throwing around reserve feats tower shield is better.

For pure caster clerics it is debatable if tower shields killed your initiative. But then again if you're 8 dex, you're really not gonna be reliably going first-ish and maybe should assume you'd be going near last every encounter at which point the tower shield is a better option.

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-21, 02:30 PM

If you want to melee, yes, but I stand by that if you're throwing around reserve feats tower shield is better.

For pure caster clerics it is debatable if tower shields killed your initiative. But then again if you're 8 dex, you're really not gonna be reliably going first-ish and maybe should assume you'd be going near last every encounter at which point the tower shield is a better option.

Fair enough. I don't know what reserve feats a cleric is using that can be so amazing, but I've never really delved into them. I tend to blend my cleric with some fighter and/or crusader and play more of a holy warrior. I have no interest in spells that target enemies nor do I particularly like the planar binding and gate type spells. Obscuring mist, Bless, protection from X, and the sort are plenty good enough for my purposes and as such I base most of my opinions off of those things.

I'm sure you can also see from above posts that I like taking the magic domain so I can use wands, rods, staffs like a wizard to cover more bases. But in addition to that I usually use one or another domain devotion to get something to spend my turn undead attempts on. I really like Law Devotion or Protection Devotion. Different reasons for each, but one can be either a personal buff or a party buff. They're fun.

RoboEmperor

2018-02-21, 02:46 PM

I don't know what reserve feats a cleric is using that can be so amazing, but I've never really delved into them.

They're not amazing. In fact they're pretty bad because your opponent saves against them for half damage quite often, but if your strength score is not 14+ (like the OP's) then meleeing is not really an option, and you need something to do when you're not casting spells early levels. Of course this comes at the cost of a feat and the OP seems to be really short on feats as well but that's what reserve feats are, an upgrade to crossbows. It's a good enough upgrade for me that I never play a caster without a level 3 damage reserve feat.

AnimeTheCat

2018-02-21, 02:59 PM

They're not amazing. In fact they're pretty bad because your opponent saves against them for half damage quite often, but if your strength score is not 14+ (like the OP's) then meleeing is not really an option, and you need something to do when you're not casting spells early levels. Of course this comes at the cost of a feat and the OP seems to be really short on feats as well but that's what reserve feats are, an upgrade to crossbows. It's a good enough upgrade for me that I never play a caster without a level 3 damage reserve feat.

hmmm... I see. Even without a high strength, you can get melee damage bonuses. I takes an action, but Magic Weapon gives you +1 attack and damage, Magic weapon doubles your damage output (at level 3) and is worth the action for 1d8+1 damage per round plus whatever damage you're dealing.

Alternatively, bless for the party, Protection from X on the less tanky Gish, Shield of Faith for the Gish 3 easy buffs (you don't need all of them) can help to end the encoutner quickly.

Also alternatively, Sanctuary can be used prior to casting Conjur Ice Beast, but that costs another round and i doubt that the OP has any method of casting Sanctuary as a free or swift action.

Best case scenario I can think of is a rework for a melee focused cleric. Lowering charisma down to 10 to boost the Dex up to 12 and Strength up to 14 or better would be the best case scenario. Even if you're wanting to be a diplomat, charisma 10 isn't bad since most of the bonuses are from synergy and skill ranks. Sadly, aside from Sorcerers and Bards (and other charisma types) Charisma isn't all that useful.

Eldariel

2018-02-22, 01:34 AM

hmmm... I see. Even without a high strength, you can get melee damage bonuses. I takes an action, but Magic Weapon gives you +1 attack and damage, Magic weapon doubles your damage output (at level 3) and is worth the action for 1d8+1 damage per round plus whatever damage you're dealing.

Alternatively, bless for the party, Protection from X on the less tanky Gish, Shield of Faith for the Gish 3 easy buffs (you don't need all of them) can help to end the encoutner quickly.

Also alternatively, Sanctuary can be used prior to casting Conjur Ice Beast, but that costs another round and i doubt that the OP has any method of casting Sanctuary as a free or swift action.

Best case scenario I can think of is a rework for a melee focused cleric. Lowering charisma down to 10 to boost the Dex up to 12 and Strength up to 14 or better would be the best case scenario. Even if you're wanting to be a diplomat, charisma 10 isn't bad since most of the bonuses are from synergy and skill ranks. Sadly, aside from Sorcerers and Bards (and other charisma types) Charisma isn't all that useful.

All of those options are awfully slot-inefficient. You can't go around burning multiple slots and actions per encounter in a small party with low payoffs. His current plan is a good one but he might need to adjust his approach. Melee Cleric would want to go down the path of persistomancy and in 25pb it's rather weak on low levels (compared to e.g. Conjure Ice Beast with some duration).