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DreadSpoon
2007-08-27, 09:50 PM
Preamble:

I've never been a fan of the true random attribute rolling of D&D. Far too often our group would end up with one luck **** rolling a number of high scores while everyone else was average or slightly above average.

The only official fair systems are the point buy systems. I dislike these because they result in cookie-cutter stats. Anyone playing a Sorcerer will generally pick the same build of stats, removing most variation. This is why games like World of Warcraft don't even have player-assignable stats: random is unfair and with point buy systems all players will min-max the best build. WoW just assigns stats for you based on class, so all players of a certain class at a given level have identical stats. That just isn't fun in a dynamic role-play game like D&D, however.

I've devised several completely fair random attribute generation methods, which I'll share here for others to use.

Method One - "Fistfuls of Dice"

This method is going to require an awful lot of dice rolling. There are way to cut down the number of rolls, but they will alter the results in less than ideal ways.

The first task is for the GM to pick a desired average ability score. For a standard human, this is defined to be 10.5. For a PC, an average of 11.5, 12, or even 13 is more appropriate. I will use 12 for this example.

The number of dice to be rolled is equal to the desired average score, minus 3, times 6. For an average of 12, this is 12-3=9, 9*6=54. 54 dice rolls are required.

All new characters begin with a score of 3 for all six attributes. The players then roll 54d6. Now the player totals up all of the dice that rolled a 1, and add the result to the first attribute score. Then the player totals up all the dice that rolled a 2, and add the result to the second attribute score. And so on.

If any attribute score is more than 18, reroll the excess dice. For example, if the third attribute score came out to 20 (meaning that 17 dice rolled a 3), then two of the dice would be rerolled.

The player may then arrange the six attribute scores to his character's six primary attributes as desired.

To cut down on the number of dice, the dice total can be divided by a factor (like 2), and then each die roll counts for two points. This quickly cuts down the number of dice to roll, but it also drastically decreaes the granularity of the rolls. If all dice count for 2 then all attribute scores will end up odd.

Method Two - "Math is Hard"

The second method requires less dice rolls than the standard D&D attribute rolling method, but it does require a little more math than attribute generation usually asks for.

First, the GM must again pick a target average score. I've found 12 to be ideal for an average D&D level of power, though 13 would be more appropriate for higher-powered campaigns. I will use 12 for the example.

Three numbers must be calculated. The first is the target total points, which is simply the average score times 6. That would be 72 for an average of 12. The other two numbers are the MAX and MIN (explained below), which are calculated by subtracting 3 and 18 from the target total respectively. So the MAX is 69 and the MIN is 54 in our example.

The player now rolls five ability scores using any method the GM desires. I recommend using 3d6, but reroll all 1s that are rolled. Note that only five ability scores are rolled, not six.

The player then calculates the sum of the five ability scores he rolled. If the sum is greater than the MAX(69), then his ability scores are just too darn good, and he has to start over.

If the sum is less than the MIN (54), then the rolls are below par. The player gets a number of points equal to the difference between the MIN and the sum, and must distribute them however he wants amongst the five attribute scores. No score may be raised above 18.

Finally, the player takes the difference between the target total (72), and assigns this as his sixth ability score. The players now distributes the scores amongst his character's six primary attributes however he pleases.

As long as players don't mind doing the math (it's a little more math than your average skill check modifier calculation, but not much), this method is very quick and generates quite acceptable scores. Using an average of twelve will usually result in two above average scores (+1 to +2), two exceptional scores (+3, maybe a +4), and two below average scores (-1, maybe -2), in my experiments. Characters with no below average scores are also rather common. Raising the target total up to 78 (for an average score of 13) generated adequate characters for mid-high-power campaigns.

Another fun partof this system is that players who regularly roll poorly for attribute scores (every group has at least... someone has to counter out the guy who always rolls at least three 17s or 18s.) actually can be better off in this system, as rolling under the MIN guarantees at least one 18 and a few extra points to customize their attribute scores however they see fit.

Method Three - "Paper is a Renewable Resource"

The final of my methods require only a single roll, but can use up an awful lot of paper.

The GM creates an assortment of ability score tables. These can be generated however he pleases, but they should be fair. I won't try to post sample tables because that will waste way too much space (and my time).

Players roll a d100 and the result is looked up on an index table to find out which attribute array the player gets. The player then assigns the attributes as he wishes. The GM may opt to let players roll twice and pick which result they want to keep.

Joltz
2007-08-27, 10:13 PM
ooh, you put more time into solving this problem than I did...

I've been using a point buy system since I decided all the standard dice methods are terrible. I've tried to remove the "cookie cutter" character problem by tweaking classes to make sure everyone has some degree of MAD and including mechanics and feats that take advantage of all stats. Cha is still a little left out though =o

Giving players total freedom arranging their stats (rolled or otherwise) is still going to have them ending up with some scores consistently low and others similarly high.

Your Fistfuls of Dice method looks interesting. I think I'll do some testing with it. I have a question though, won't this result in most scores being very close to the average?

Math is Hard looks interesting. I might try that one also because it seems to have some of the regularity of the point buy while still having the randomness of the dice. Off the top of my head, if I run a game with one of these ability score methods it'll probably be that one. My only dislike of it is that I don't like players having scores of 18 at level 1. How often does the total come up below minimum when you use an average ability score of 13 or so?

Paper is a Renewable Resource is workable. Just too much work for the DM. I can see where it could be useful. I just don't think I want to do all the work for it or run a campaign like that.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-27, 10:24 PM
I could probably program this stuff if you're interested. That might save a fair amount of time. Though it also means you need a computer.

ZebulonCrispi
2007-08-27, 10:29 PM
How about this:

Instead of rolling 6 stats, only roll 3. Each time you roll a value, set one stat to that value and another stat to 24 minus that value. So, if you roll an 18, you assign an 18 to one stat and a 6 to another.
technically it should be 21, not 24, but that makes the average stat 10.5, which isn't in line with the 4d6-drop-lowest system. If you roll 5 or less, just reroll it.

DreadSpoon
2007-08-27, 10:46 PM
Your Fistfuls of Dice method looks interesting. I think I'll do some testing with it. I have a question though, won't this result in most scores being very close to the average?

So will any other method, statistically speaking. ;) You're right that the number of dice rolls will result in a far greater concentration on average. It's still more than possible to get some wild results. The fistful of dice method is definitely better suited for GMs that like campaigns with more "average" characters with few exceptional qualities. Set the number of die rolls to 42 and you'll get some very average characters, which is great for a gritty/realistic/mundane campaign.

There are various modifications you could do to allevite that quality of the method, if you feel it's a real problem. The GM might allow a reroll if a character has no attribute of at least 14 or 15, for example, or he might allow players to trade up to 5-7 points among his attributes.

I don't generally use the fistful of dice method. It was the first fair random method I came up with (and is something I used in some MUDs a while back), but it's not my favorite. The "math is hard" method was something I came up with about two nights ago after we started a Wheel of Time campaign and our lucky roller managed to pull off yet another character with three legit 18s and I was stuck with my usual 10s and 11s with one 14. ;)


I could probably program this stuff if you're interested. That might save a fair amount of time. Though it also means you need a computer.

Yeah, it could be done in a small amount of JavaScript and put online somewhere. I've used a little C utility for performing 10s of thousands of runs for testing probabilities and printing it out all perty (I got a C- in STATS 410, so I can't calculate probabilities the easy way ;p ).

Since in general people shouldn't be rolling characters that often (I consider a high PC mortality rate to be bad GMing, and I don't think most groups jump campaigns as often as mine has the last few months - mostly because I'm refusing to GM anymore for a break so everyone else is taking turns trying to GM for while) I don't think making character creation a little more time consuming is a problem. It's far better for character creation to be easy but time consuming than it is to have it be quick but filled with cryptic choices that only a die-hard gamer who's intimately familiar with the rules could figure out.

By the way, another modification to any of these methods is to not allow characters to pick which attribute gets what score. I sort of miss that quality of 2nd edition. Players might not get the class they were aiming for, but that's not necessarily bad. It does help to prevent the one guy from always playing a Wizard, or whatever. But I'm a big fan of WFRP (everything about character creation - and I mean everything - is random, except for race and gender). However, the Math is Hard method is a bad fit for this modification since it seems to guarantee that high rollers always get a bad CHA and low rollers always get a good CHA. A further modification might be to allow the player to swap CHA with any other attribute.

Yakk
2007-08-27, 10:52 PM
Stats start at 5.
Roll 20d6. 1 means add two to stat 1, etc.

Next, roll 3d6. 1 means add 1 to stat 1, etc. Re-roll one of any duplicates or 2 of any triplicates until you get 3 distinct numbers here.

Re-roll any die that gets you over 18.

Average: 13.1666666. Total stat mod: +5

Half of your stats will be odd, half will be even.

Variant: Stats start pinned -- 1 is str, 2 is dex, etc.
Roll 1d8s instead of 1d6s. Record the 7s and 8s separately.
After rolling, you can assign 7 and 8 to two distinct stats.

Avg of 7/8 stats: 15.75
Avg of non 7/8 stats: 10.375.

ChrisMcDee
2007-08-28, 09:49 AM
Have each player write out the names of the six attributes in any order. Let's say I write Cha, Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Int. The order doesn't mean anything yet so no need to think about it at all.

The DM then rolls an array using whatever method he wishes, I'll use 4D6 drop lowest. These results are lined up infront of the players and assigned to their attributes in the same order. So if the DM rolls an 18 on the first attribute, I assign it to charisma.

Bingo! Each player gets the same numbers just in a different order. Of course, it may limit their class options but everyone has the same limitations so tough luck!

Duke of URL
2007-08-28, 10:09 AM
Method 3 is actually probably the best. Use a computer to generate the stats (or one person with dice, paper, and a lot of time to put together the "book" for everyone else to use). Criteria for stat generation could be something like:

Roll 4d6, best three, six times. Arrange scores from high to low.
Discard any array with a net modifier of less than MIN (example MIN: +3)
Discard any array with a net modifier of greater than MAX (example MAX: +5)
Discard any array previously generated
Continue generating arrays until 100 are generated, assigning each array an index number from 00 to 99.
(Optional: print out a "book" of stat arrays for reference)
Player rolls d% to determine their specific array, they may arrange the values in any way they choose
You can tweak the formula a little bit based on need -- maybe 3d6 rolls for more randomness in highs and lows, change MIN and MAX, generate only 20 instead of 100, etc. A computer should be able to do this easily, as long as the criteria aren't so tight that it will be infeasible or impossible to generate the number of arrays desired.

Edit: Alternatively, I suppose you could just let players roll like normal, but they have to re-roll if their net modifier is outside the MIN/MAX range.

Logic
2007-08-28, 09:57 PM
One of my alternate systems is to have a player roll 3d6 36 times, arranging in a 6x6 grid, placing each roll in order as it is rolled.

The player selects a single array, whether it be one of the diagonals, or any row or column.

The DM is allowed to exclude only 1 line if he deems it unfair to the other players. (I had to institute this rule when one player rolled 4 18s and 2 17s on the diagonal.)

The player may not use a calculator or scratch paper to "sum up" any array. If he wants to know the total points in any array, he must add it mentally.

drawingfreak
2007-08-29, 02:48 AM
Here's a nice way to stop players from messing around during creation.

Have the player's create their characters as normal. You will get your power characters, your weak characters, and your average characters. THEN, have all the players pass their character sheets to the left. Laugh maniacally. (also makes an interesting roleplaying experiment)

ChrisMcDee
2007-08-29, 05:41 AM
Here's a nice way to stop players from messing around during creation.

Have the player's create their characters as normal. You will get your power characters, your weak characters, and your average characters. THEN, have all the players pass their character sheets to the left. Laugh maniacally. (also makes an interesting roleplaying experiment)
Or better yet, gather them up and deal them out randomly. That way if you have a player who creates an extremely bad character for laughs he may be on the recieving end of the joke himself.

Of course, if you were feeling really cruel you could tell them that they'll be passing the sheets on and then after creation tell them you've changed your mind and have them keep their own sheets. That way the generous players get awesome characters and the jerks get the weaklings, mwahaha.

SCPRedMage
2007-08-29, 06:50 AM
Here's a nice way to stop players from messing around during creation.

Have the player's create their characters as normal. You will get your power characters, your weak characters, and your average characters. THEN, have all the players pass their character sheets to the left. Laugh maniacally. (also makes an interesting roleplaying experiment)
You are an evil, evil man.

And if I was a woman, I'd be asking you to father my children... :smallbiggrin:


Or better yet, gather them up and deal them out randomly. That way if you have a player who creates an extremely bad character for laughs he may be on the recieving end of the joke himself.

Of course, if you were feeling really cruel you could tell them that they'll be passing the sheets on and then after creation tell them you've changed your mind and have them keep their own sheets. That way the generous players get awesome characters and the jerks get the weaklings, mwahaha.
Actually, the point is that you don't let them KNOW that they're creating someone else's character...

ChrisMcDee
2007-08-29, 08:32 AM
Aha, that works a lot better then :smallsmile:

Tengu
2007-08-29, 08:53 AM
Here's a nice way to stop players from messing around during creation.

Have the player's create their characters as normal. You will get your power characters, your weak characters, and your average characters. THEN, have all the players pass their character sheets to the left. Laugh maniacally. (also makes an interesting roleplaying experiment)

I'd punch a DM that would do this to me.


Have each player write out the names of the six attributes in any order. Let's say I write Cha, Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Int. The order doesn't mean anything yet so no need to think about it at all.

The DM then rolls an array using whatever method he wishes, I'll use 4D6 drop lowest. These results are lined up infront of the players and assigned to their attributes in the same order. So if the DM rolls an 18 on the first attribute, I assign it to charisma.

Bingo! Each player gets the same numbers just in a different order. Of course, it may limit their class options but everyone has the same limitations so tough luck!

An almost good idea, with the first part making it awful - without it it would be fair and roughly interesting: roll one set of stats for all players, and let them assign them in any order possible.

Logic
2007-08-29, 07:15 PM
Here's a nice way to stop players from messing around during creation.

Have the player's create their characters as normal. You will get your power characters, your weak characters, and your average characters. THEN, have all the players pass their character sheets to the left. Laugh maniacally. (also makes an interesting roleplaying experiment)

I'd punch a DM that would do this to me.

I would only do this to a group that frequently makes xerox copies of previous characters.

Volug
2007-08-29, 07:39 PM
i just simply do the average thing, then make the lowest rolled an 18.

paddyfool
2007-08-29, 11:42 PM
This isn't so systematic yet, but I had a game once where I rolled an obscenely good stat list and another player rolled a rather poor one. I "gave" them a few of my stat points to bring us to equivalent net bonuses.

I like the rolling 4D6(drop 1) three times, then taking 24-(each result) for the other-three-stats system.

Matthew
2007-08-30, 05:08 PM
My advice would be to just create a shorter minimum and maximum range, such as 'Total Attribute Bonuses may not exceed X or be lower than Y' and roll as normal.

Krelon
2007-09-20, 02:18 PM
ok, I wanted to start a new thread and stumbled upon this one, anyway:

combination of point buy and random:

players generate a minimum ability array using as many points as the DM grants them (for example 32)

then each player rolls 4d6, drop lowest. If you scored abilities worth more than minimum+X points (for example 38) you have to re-roll until you are within the upper boundary.

the players can pick either the rolled or the generated stats.

advantages:
fast,
in the end everyone has a playable character
no one is too good
good chance that two players with same class have different scores

GimliFett
2007-09-20, 02:54 PM
I use 4d4 + 4. You heard me! :smallbiggrin: No rerolls. If they get a 19 or 20, they get a 19 or 20. 'Course I run difficult campaigns, so the characters tend to need a little oomf!
I want them to work for what they get, and I tend to want them to be HEROES dammit! :smallsmile:

Krelon
2007-09-20, 03:13 PM
I use 4d4 + 4. You heard me! :smallbiggrin: No rerolls. If they get a 19 or 20, they get a 19 or 20. 'Course I run difficult campaigns, so the characters tend to need a little oomf!
I want them to work for what they get, and I tend to want them to be HEROES dammit! :smallsmile:

with 4d4+4 , don't they end up with all stats 13-15 ? Sure, the total modifier is +10 or so but it doesn't look so appealing to me.

GimliFett
2007-09-20, 03:17 PM
with 4d4+4 , don't they end up with all stats 13-15 ? Sure, the total modifier is +10 or so but it doesn't look so appealing to me.

By average, yes. But in actual practice, I've seen a great deal of variety. Maybe my gang's just blessed (and cursed), as they almost always end up with at least one 10 (or lower) and one higher number and the rest ranging 12-15. It works for us. :shrug: