Is there a way to work with Flexi-classes?

[SangoProduction]

What I mean by flexi-classes, are those like the Armiger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/armiger)or the Troubadour (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/troubadour), where much of the class features are flexible, but there aren't resources to have the rest of the character be flexible, like the feats and what not. There are certainly several classes in PF and 3.5 but I can't recall off the top of my head.

For spellcasters, this is fine, because they have feats that apply to all spells, and caster level and what not. But what does a disarmer who's an off-time grappler have that contributes to his disarm/bleed and his grapple at the same time, in case he switches out? Or is like 2/3 of his flexi-switch (which was paid for by having smaller general progression) just sitting idle until you find something that counters your main build, then you still have to deal with not having half your build?

(Written quickly since I must go, ask questions if need be for clarifications.)

Am I getting something wrong here, or are these really as poor as they seem?

[Zaq]

I'm not intimately familiar with PF or with the classes in question you linked, so I'm answering primarily from my 3.5 experiences with things like the Binder or the incarnum-using classes. That said, they should pretty much transfer.

First off, just to put on the table what we all already know, a specialist will almost always be better at their chosen task than a generalist who uses mostly the same basic puzzle pieces. That's just how the game works, and it's not a bad thing overall (get rid of the ability of specialists to be good, and you end up with something like 5e, which I do not view as a good thing). We pretty much just have to accept that, and we have to make some choices about how much specialization we're willing to accept or reject.

If the class you're using is sufficiently generous in its abilities, one strategy that works pretty well is to pick a primary tactic, invest enough in your static resources (stats/feats/items/etc.) to reach an acceptable level of competence in that primary tactic, and then use your secondary flexible resources (what I would think of as additional vestiges or additional soulmelds or whatever, with the terminology shifted appropriately to your classes) to, well, approach secondary sets of tactics. Your primary tactic is relatively inflexible, but your secondary tactics are more flexible than most. And of course, if push comes to shove and you find yourself in a really weird situation, you're not mechanically barred from changing your primary tactic; you just might not have as much build infrastructure to support it as you otherwise might.

So again to use my example of an incarnum-using class (which I hope will be familiar/understandable to you), one might build a Totemist who pretty much always binds the Girallon Arms to their totem chakra (for four claw attacks) and pretty much always binds the Sphinx Claws to their hands chakra (for Pounce), but then they have two or three other melds (and maybe even other binds) that they don't keep the same every day. Their main strategy will always be "charge at something and make as many natural attacks at it as possible," and so their feats and stats would support that, but they could have more flexibility than the average noncaster when it comes to what skills they can be good at, what environments they can adapt to, and so on.

This works better with some classes than with others, and even looking at the pages you linked to doesn't give me enough understanding of your classes (in the time I'm willing to spend right now) to declare one way or another if it's viable for you. In 3.5, this strategy isn't actually great on a pure-class Binder until higher level than one might expect, for example, because the Binder's "points of articulation" (i.e., how many and which vestiges they can access each day) aren't as robust as we might hope. If you only get enough juice to power your main tactic and don't have anything left over for secondary tactics (as is often the case at low levels), the "solid primary, fluid secondaries" idea falls flat. And sometimes you have to be kind of aggressive with your secondary abilities to make them show up and have them feel like they matter—for example, if you choose a flexible game element that gives you a decent bonus to a set of skills, you should seek out opportunities to roll those skills while you've got that flexible element selected. Sometimes abilities are only as good at the table as you make them be, and the necessary mindset when you've got a moderately different toolbox every day is a little different from what it's like when you've just got the one.

Switching gears to another strategy, it sometimes works to go full generic. I don't know how much unspecialized infrastructure Spheres offers, but taking general-purpose feats that just make you better at Sphere-ing (the equivalent of Improved Binding or Bonus Essentia or whatever) and/or general-purpose feats that never really go out of style (Improved Initiative or whatever) means that you'll never have feats (or items or whatever) that are entirely wasted regardless of how much you change up your primary tactics. To go back to what I said at the beginning, though, we all know that a specialist is going to be better at their chosen role than someone who didn't specialize in that role, so by going full generic, you're accepting that you're going to be outshone by someone who puts a real effort into it. That doesn't mean that you'll be bad at your day's focus (if your class is robust enough, you might be pretty darn good at it), but it does mean that you'll have a lower ceiling and you won't be able to do some tricks that you otherwise might.

Yet another approach might be to invest feats (etc.) into the baseline of a few different primary strategies, but not much more than that. So for your example of a "disarmer who's an off-time grappler," you'd take something like Improved Disarm and Improved Grapple (and let's just say a similar feat like Improved Trip or something, just to ensure that we can indeed spec for different tactics), but you wouldn't necessarily take much more than that down the disarming tree(s) or the grappling tree(s). Compared to the "full generic" approach, you'll have feats that won't be used on a given day, but you'll also have a slightly higher baseline for a few different potential primary tactics. I'm not sure how much I like this approach, to be honest, but it might be workable depending on how predictable your GM is.

Are any of these approaches helpful at all?

[stack]

On an armiger, I tend to take stuff I want 'always on' with my tradition/base progression/extra combat talent feats. Proficiency, defensive abilities, stuff like that. Berserker for THP or guardian for delayed damage. Also base spheres that grant skill ranks that you want.

Specialized stuff you don't always need go on your weapons. If you are primary melee, pretty much all of your ranged investment go on your ranged weapon (sniper and/or barrage).

Also suit the talents to the weapon. Gauntlets or unarmed strikes are good for grappling, since you need free hands, so don't put wrestling on your greatsword (some exceptions may apply). Reach weapons and patrol talents go well together.

For example, I have a Dex-based elf armiger at level 12. Unarmored training, elvin heritage, and athletics stuff. Guardian and berserker are also on base progression. Curveblade has berserker stuff for melee damage/debuff, branch spear has guardian for control, longbow has sniper, unarmed has some brute stuff.

[Ssalarn]

I usually start with a firm core and use my flex options to round things out or address niche situations, but it varies depending on the character and what I want them to do.

For a class like armiger, I use my base and tradition talents to set up some kind of solid baseline that's going to be supported by my stats and will never be a bad thing to have. This might mean mostly athletics talents from my normal progression accompanied by a really versatile and robust martial tradition, like Bushido Warrior, Dedicated Duelist, Gladiator, Pirate, or Steppe Rider. Then I set my weapons up to cover different situations, typically with a melee weapon focused on a sphere supported by my martial tradition and a ranged weapon with a strong ranged sphere (so if I'm an armiger with the dedicated duelist tradition, I'll put Duelist talents on a rapier and probably Sniper talents on a pistol). As you get more custom weapons or whatever, you can expand into other situations. I usually have at least one armiger weapon that I tag Alchemy on so I can prepare salves and/or panaceas out of combat and take care of my own healing and condition removal, and a secondary weapon with a utility or maneuver sphere like Scout or Scoundrel for some unique tricks. Since armiger has full BAB and abilities like focusing switch, rapid assault, prowesses, etc., I usually end up with a really solid combatant whose combat effectiveness, flexibility, and utility put them right in the same wheelhouse as paladins or rangers.

One of the biggest benefits of flexible classes like the armiger is their versatility. You have more options to leverage towards different situations, so they tend to work best in adventure paths and modules where you have a robust and well-rounded adventure that includes a balanced presentation of social, exploration, and combat encounters. If you typically focus on 4-man dungeon crawls, then there's going to be less value in flexible classes (this is also generally true of more well-rounded classes like the majority of 3/4 BAB core classes). The more the campaign gives you opportunities to leverage your resources, the more valuable they become, so in a setting like Rise of the Drow (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/126800/Rise-of-the-Drow?affiliate_id=435758), Rise of the Runelords (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tc0?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Rise-of-the-Runelords-Anniversary-Edition), or Way of the Wicked (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/97640/Way-of-the-Wicked-Book-One-Knot-of-Thorns?affiliate_id=435758), they're going to be very valuable. If you're doing a less plot and adventure heavy dungeon crawl like The Emerald Spire (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yqx?Pathfinder-Module-The-Emerald-Spire-Superdungeon), especially if you're trying to marathon through, then they'll still be able to keep up and contribute, but you won't be leveraging their advantages as much and you might be better off with a more fixed class like blacksmith, paladin, sentinel, or slayer.

[SangoProduction]

Thanks to both of you.