The Proper Use of Mind Control

[DRD1812]

I've noticed a lot of table variation with charm and dominate effects. I've got a short write-up on the subject over on this comic (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/prince-charming), but I'm curious how you guys do it. Does the GM assume control? Are players given vague directions and expected to RP it? How do you make mind control work at your table?

[PrismCat21]

I regularly pass prepared notes to all my players. When someone is influenced, replaced with a double, mind controlled, ect... nothing seems out of the ordinary when I give them instructions/suggestions on how to act.
I let them choose how to represent it for the most part as long specific elements are being met.

If they ever choose to be a **** and take advantage of it in some way, I give them misinformation and make sure their actions bite them in the butt.

Certain players hate trying to assume a different role, so for them I usually try to be more subtle about it. More narrative from me.

[DRD1812]

I regularly pass prepared notes to all my players. When someone is influenced, replaced with a double, mind controlled, ect... nothing seems out of the ordinary when I give them instructions/suggestions on how to act.
I let them choose how to represent it for the most part as long specific elements are being met.

If they ever choose to be a **** and take advantage of it in some way, I give them misinformation and make sure their actions bite them in the butt.

Certain players hate trying to assume a different role, so for them I usually try to be more subtle about it. More narrative from me.

Neat. Any tales of mind control that worked especially well?

[Falontani]

Mine wasn't mind control per say, but the player had a disease that was slowly driving his character insane. (wendigo fever) and none of the players or characters knew that he was diseased. I told him that it was slowly draining his wisdom and he role played it very well. It got to the point that he was doing things clearly out of character and the cleric kind of went, "Huh, I've never heard him do something like that, I cast Status." completely out of combat this was over a week later in game, and several months later IRL

[DRD1812]

Mine wasn't mind control per say, but the player had a disease that was slowly driving his character insane. (wendigo fever) and none of the players or characters knew that he was diseased. I told him that it was slowly draining his wisdom and he role played it very well. It got to the point that he was doing things clearly out of character and the cleric kind of went, "Huh, I've never heard him do something like that, I cast Status." completely out of combat this was over a week later in game, and several months later IRL

I love that kind of mess. I've got a similar story slow-playing a curse beneath this one: http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/curses

[Darth Ultron]

If I'm at a table with good players, I'll just have the player themselves play the mind control. Good players love a chance to role play, and this is simply that.

For other players I most often do mind control as a bit more ''body control'' then mind control. So the effect more takes over their body, with the character more trapped inside. For the average player that is uncooperative and whines and complains about the control, I'll just leave it at the puppet stage. For the average player who wants to be a good player, I'll let them try the ''half control'' sort of thing, so they can try to give sings of the mind control to the other characters or otherwise subvert it. (In general, I'll give a new player one chance to act right....and if they fail, they get demoted to puppet forever more).

For a twist (and for bad players) I'll go full ''player mind games''. So the ''mind control'' in-game, effects the players. So the mind controlled player sees/hears the ''mind controlled'' spin of everything. So, for example, a mind controlled character that is told ''the elf is an evil monster. I'd then tell the player ''the elf changes it's form into a tentacled horror, attacks your character, does damage....and obliterates your handy haversack!" The player, will naturally, react in a typical fashion like going all murderhobo on the elf monster. Then, once the player does the deed, have reality for them ''snap back'', something like ''your character ripped the tentacled horror apart and killed it and wrote 'Kart Rules!' in the creatures blood on the wall...then everything around you ripples...and suddenly the tentacled horror is gone and your character Kart is standing over the dead body of sweet innocent princess Buttercup, that you just killed, and are covered in her blood. But, good news is your handy haversack is still on your person and is not damaged in any way. "

[Morcleon]

(In general, I'll give a new player one chance to act right....and if they fail, they get demoted to puppet forever more).

It's not certain that new players will know how to act and even if they're trying to do it properly, they might only get it after a few failures.

[Darth Ultron]

It's not certain that new players will know how to act and even if they're trying to do it properly, they might only get it after a few failures.

True.

But this is only true for when they are new players....once they make the choice to be bad, average or good, then things change. I did not mean the player is tagged something forever.

[Geddy2112]

The type of mind control matters. If it is the kind of mental domination magic like dominate person or magic jar, it is dead clear that the character's free will has been outright overridden. The famous dead eyes, awkward meat puppet behavior, and telltale sudden urge to kill all of their friends is a sign somebody is under the hard mind control. As a DM, I can now control the character's actions, but I let the player resolve them, much as the players can do the same mind controlling my NPC's. I find it best to do this sparingly, or only as turnabout is fair play/gentleman's agreement. If the players use it against my NPC's, there is a chance it will come back against them.

For charm or subjective domination(maybe the cursed item they are holding simply does not want them to let go) I trust my players to roleplay it and go along. My group has a good ability to play "my character strongly wants to do this, but still won't under outright dangerous or conflicting circumstances" and it is understood that charm, fascination, and similar effects are much easier to resist and break than domination or possession.

As a DM, it is important not to be abusive in either circumstance. You can let a PC charm the pants of NPC 37, but there is no reason to make your characters suddenly get naked and dance around a fire for no reason. A dominated character should likewise be dominated by a force mature enough not to make them engage in vulgar or childish behavior for the lulz.

[DRD1812]

A dominated character should likewise be dominated by a force mature enough not to make them engage in vulgar or childish behavior for the lulz.

I sense a story there. Have you seen this happen in a game?

[Crake]

True.

But this is only true for when they are new players....once they make the choice to be bad, average or good, then things change. I did not mean the player is tagged something forever.

Uhhh.....


If I'm at a table with good players, I'll just have the player themselves play the mind control. Good players love a chance to role play, and this is simply that.

For other players I most often do mind control as a bit more ''body control'' then mind control. So the effect more takes over their body, with the character more trapped inside. For the average player that is uncooperative and whines and complains about the control, I'll just leave it at the puppet stage. For the average player who wants to be a good player, I'll let them try the ''half control'' sort of thing, so they can try to give sings of the mind control to the other characters or otherwise subvert it. (In general, I'll give a new player one chance to act right....and if they fail, they get demoted to puppet forever more).

For a twist (and for bad players) I'll go full ''player mind games''. So the ''mind control'' in-game, effects the players. So the mind controlled player sees/hears the ''mind controlled'' spin of everything. So, for example, a mind controlled character that is told ''the elf is an evil monster. I'd then tell the player ''the elf changes it's form into a tentacled horror, attacks your character, does damage....and obliterates your handy haversack!" The player, will naturally, react in a typical fashion like going all murderhobo on the elf monster. Then, once the player does the deed, have reality for them ''snap back'', something like ''your character ripped the tentacled horror apart and killed it and wrote 'Kart Rules!' in the creatures blood on the wall...then everything around you ripples...and suddenly the tentacled horror is gone and your character Kart is standing over the dead body of sweet innocent princess Buttercup, that you just killed, and are covered in her blood. But, good news is your handy haversack is still on your person and is not damaged in any way. "

You sure? Maybe you didn't mean it, but you certainly conveyed that sentiment.

[Darth Ultron]

You sure? Maybe you didn't mean it, but you certainly conveyed that sentiment.

Yea, I get that a lot. Because I don't type to many vague statements like ''some times'' or ''maybe''.

I know for a fact that when you ask a new player to do something ''hard'' or ''weird'' or ''complicated'', the two best answers are: Yes and I'l do it but I'll need help and guidance. Most other answers are bad, and do lead down the road to them being a bad player forever more. And the child like wacky rant of ''player agency'' and ''I'm super duper'' and ''I play this game to be a demi god'' are just huge Red Flags.

Any reasonable player welcomes a chance to role play, so if they are told they are mind controlled they will love to role play it out...because, after all, why not? The other players are stamping their little feet and screaming ''you can't tell me what to do with my character!" and not being reasonable at all.

[Calthropstu]

Here's how I handle it.

For charm, I say "Your best friend is being attacked by your allies. Sure, they're your friends too but this is your best friend in the whole world."

Results vary, but generally it results in the charmed person trying to stop the combat. At higher levels, this could result in a wall of force being placed between the party and their target, or the barbarian using trip attacks or tackles in order to pin down the bigger party threats.

In the case of dominate, that's a different story. I give my players a command. They may not subvert it and comete that command to the best of their ability. In the case of a kill order, Spell casters have to launch spells, melee combatants have to strike with their weapons. Archers need to shoot. Dominated characters have to do as they are told and do nothing else until given a new order.

[Quarian Rex]

And the child like wacky rant of ''player agency'' ... are just huge Red Flags.

Any reasonable player welcomes a chance to role play, so if they are told they are mind controlled they will love to role play it out...because, after all, why not? The other players are stamping their little feet and screaming ''you can't tell me what to do with my character!" and not being reasonable at all.


See, I find that this has more to do with the DM than anything else. If the mind control whammy is a rare thing then it is a great RP opportunity. If this is the umpteenth mindrape the character has undergone then ones tolerance for such bullsh*t starts getting thin. This is a game, one that requires player agency, both to be fun and to just be functional. If mind control is used as a rare opportunity to explore themes that come with subversion of that agency then it can be really interesting. If mind control is just used as a form of overt DM manipulation and ham-fisted railroading then you will see pushback from justifiably annoyed players.

The campaign I'm in right now is a great example of the later. The DM loves random mind control. So much so that every peice of paper that we have seen in the campaign has been enchanted with various forms of the mind whammy, everything from pages of the 'Necronomicon' to wanted posters, all requiring will saves or forced actions. This happened so often that we players had to start disposing of any paper we saw with a magic aura (which was virtually all of them) and do everything else in our considerable power to remove that tool from his kit, actions that have effectively shut down entire plot threads. We often joke that the hidden theme of the campaign is a parable against the evils of literacy.

When it comes to mind control I'll give a DM two or three chances to act right.... and if they fail, they get demoted forever more.

[Segev]

For a twist (and for bad players) I'll go full ''player mind games''. So the ''mind control'' in-game, effects the players. So the mind controlled player sees/hears the ''mind controlled'' spin of everything. So, for example, a mind controlled character that is told ''the elf is an evil monster. I'd then tell the player ''the elf changes it's form into a tentacled horror, attacks your character, does damage....and obliterates your handy haversack!" The player, will naturally, react in a typical fashion like going all murderhobo on the elf monster. Then, once the player does the deed, have reality for them ''snap back'', something like ''your character ripped the tentacled horror apart and killed it and wrote 'Kart Rules!' in the creatures blood on the wall...then everything around you ripples...and suddenly the tentacled horror is gone and your character Kart is standing over the dead body of sweet innocent princess Buttercup, that you just killed, and are covered in her blood. But, good news is your handy haversack is still on your person and is not damaged in any way. "
This honestly is a good way to handle a lot of effects, if you're good enough to pull it off seamlessly. Not even reserved for "bad" players, if done right. The trick is to not use it on people who's priorities have shifted, or who are actually mind-slaves, but rather to use it when perceptions are messed with.

I particularly like it as a technique for conveying madness. The delicate trick is to make sure that it's hard to tell if the player is getting different information from other players because he's being deceived, or because he's seeing through something they aren't.

[Calthropstu]

Snip

See, there are campaigns where it makes SENSE for it to happen often. A campaign against illithid for example, or intellect devourers or a game where the bbeg is a mind control specialist such as enchanter or thrallherd.

It doesn't make sense to get upset about the bad guys main schtick, no matter how annoying it gets. So begins an arms race against the bad guys going along the lines of: charm/dominate vs prot evil vs dispel etc... which is a logical progression.

Now if it's free form sandbox style, and every third enemy charms and dominates, maybe something is wrong. It should be easy to tell the difference though.

[Quarian Rex]

See, there are campaigns where it makes SENSE for it to happen often. A campaign against illithid for example, or intellect devourers or a game where the bbeg is a mind control specialist such as enchanter or thrallherd.


I have no problem with a reoccurring villain's shtick from a reasonable source. In fact, such things are a great way to provide motivation, players really want to get the guy who used them as a sockpuppet. But that also provides a way for the players to act against such things, killing the mind mage, wiping out the mindflayer nest, etc. It is a far different thing when it turns out to be the DM's shtick, and not the antagonist's. Mind control abilities are just something that is really easy for novice DMs to abuse and there are consequences on both sides of the table.

But I suppose that is the trick of good DMing, making sure that the horrible source of player aggravation and annoyance is attributed to the villains instead of the DM himself.

[Darth Ultron]

See, I find that this has more to do with the DM than anything else. If the mind control whammy is a rare thing then it is a great RP opportunity.

The problem is that ''rare'' to a player is like ''once a year''.

Worse, one the players get the DM to ''make something rare'', it's a quick slipper slope to Tyrant Players that want to make ''everything rare''.

[Crake]

The problem is that ''rare'' to a player is like ''once a year''.

Worse, one the players get the DM to ''make something rare'', it's a quick slipper slope to Tyrant Players that want to make ''everything rare''.

lets be honest, if a particular theme runs for 3-4 sessions, assuming you play once a week, then you can have up to 12-15 or so 'rare' themes per year, assuming you run nothing but these rare themes. I'd say that's plenty, isn't it?

[Darth Ultron]

lets be honest, if a particular theme runs for 3-4 sessions, assuming you play once a week, then you can have up to 12-15 or so 'rare' themes per year, assuming you run nothing but these rare themes. I'd say that's plenty, isn't it?

Well, gosh, I'd only do mind control for more then an hour or so for a good player. I'd never force a bad jerk player to me mind controlled for 3-4 sessions.

But you can expect it to come up at least ''once a game''....maybe a lot more, depending on the adventure. The ''Vampires of Highwater'' adventure will have lots of mind control, for example.

[JNAProductions]

So, one of my players is actually being body-controlled right now. It's a PbP game, so what I did was I created a second thread for the inner mind of the controlled character, and just PMed them what the spirit controlling them wants.

However, the player talked to me, and told me that they felt it'd be too difficult/unfair to just run it entirely themselves, so I ended up telling all the players, OOC, what was happening. They're being careful (perhaps a little too careful) to not metagame, and it's working reasonably well.

Overall, my advice would be pretty simple, and applies to many more situations: Talk to your other players/DM, and find out what works best for your group.

[Crake]

Well, gosh, I'd only do mind control for more then an hour or so for a good player. I'd never force a bad jerk player to me mind controlled for 3-4 sessions.

But you can expect it to come up at least ''once a game''....maybe a lot more, depending on the adventure. The ''Vampires of Highwater'' adventure will have lots of mind control, for example.

Nah, I meant the theme runs for 3-4 sessions. So the players spend time investigating, come across people who are mind controlled, learn what sort of enemy they're fighting, prepare for the fight, and then ultimately fight the big bad guy who does the mind controlling. During that time, perhaps one of the players becomes mind controlled, and the party eventually finds out, or maybe it happens during the final fight at the very end, but no, I certainly wasn't implying to control a player for 3-4 sessions, that would indeed be terrible! :smalltongue:

One of my DMs recently ran a vampire adventure, and literally in the first round of being mind controlled, my character critical hit another player dealing three times their HP in damage. Fun little anecdote.

[DRD1812]

So, one of my players is actually being body-controlled right now. It's a PbP game, so what I did was I created a second thread for the inner mind of the controlled character, and just PMed them what the spirit controlling them wants.

However, the player talked to me, and told me that they felt it'd be too difficult/unfair to just run it entirely themselves, so I ended up telling all the players, OOC, what was happening. They're being careful (perhaps a little too careful) to not metagame, and it's working reasonably well.

Overall, my advice would be pretty simple, and applies to many more situations: Talk to your other players/DM, and find out what works best for your group.

Interesting stuff! I use a couple of terms over here that I think apply:

http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/intra-party-romance

Neat to see people negotiating "Cloak & Dagger PVP" vs. "Metagame PVP" in a real world scenario. :)