Permanent Decision Points: A comparison

[PhoenixPhyre]

As part of working on two option-heavy homebrew classes, I decided to take a look at how many long-term decision points each class has as it levels from 1 - 20. Because I'm a completionist, I decided to compare to 4e and PF Core.

What do I mean by a "long-term decision point"? Anything that you choose on level up and that cannot be changed until at the next level (if ever). Features that come without a choice (as a consequence of a sub-class, for example) don't count. Spells count for spells-known classes (plus wizards), but not for clerics (who know their entire list). Basically, the things you're stuck with once you choose from a restricted list. This includes race, class, skills, initial ability scores (only counts as one choice), etc. Things like expertise (choose 2 of...) count as one choice per option.

Here are the aggregate statistics (Core/PHB only):

5e classes (broken out by sub-classes where they differ, a total of 21 such data points)
Average: 27.67
Median: 25
Standard Deviation: 13.6
Min: 12 (Berserker Barbarian and non-4e Monk)
Max: 59 (Wizards because of their +2 spells/level. Warlocks and lore bards are next at 46).

Interestingly enough, Clerics, Druids, Monks (non-4e), and Champion Fighters all had about 16 choices, while paladins only had 13.

4e classes (these I normalized to 20 levels instead of 30 for comparison purposes)
These were all basically the same: 39.33

PF Core classes (man these were a pain--the data's all over the place. For these I said selecting skill points was 1 decision/level)
Average: 57.9
Median: 48
Standard Deviation: 19.4
Min: 39 (druids, who know their whole list, followed by clerics at 40)
Max: 97 (sorcerers, who have class features and spells known)

5e classes make (on average) 9 choices at first level, while 4e classes make 12 and PF classes average 7. There are many levels at which 5e classes make no choices, while there are no such levels for 4e or PF classes (since they always get skill points).

I don't really have a point here, just some interesting (to me at least) data. If anyone cares, the spreadsheet I used is here (OneDrive) (https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjKe-YTGxfZWuDTYU0D1zCR8XlsR)

[MrStabby]

There seems to be a lot at first level - 5 choices for stats and then 1 choice for race + whatever class choice?

[PhoenixPhyre]

There seems to be a lot at first level - 5 choices for stats and then 1 choice for race + whatever class choice?

For 5e classes?

Everyone gets:
Race
Class
Starting Scores (1 choice as a standard, otherwise I'd add a constant to all of them)
Skills (1/skill choice, so 2, 3, or 4)
Background

Some get a sub-class choice
Spells-known casters (and wizards) get choice of spells (1 choice per spell). This is where wizards, sorcerers, and bards get lots of choices.
Dragon sorcerers get color
Rogues get expertise (counts as 2, since you get that for 2 skills)
Rangers get terrain/favored enemy
Fighters get fighting style

This is an under-count since some races get extra choices,but that's usually 1 or two total and I was looking at variation across classes, not races.

[MrStabby]

Oh yeah, I forgot about skill selection. That is a LOT more choices. The problem is that the number of choices depends on your race as well rather than being a flat number.

[Zalabim]

I think you could compare the starting equipment bundles with a few choices to the number of decisions that go into the "here's some gold and there's the equipment list" model. Depending on the game, quest, or module, the stuff you bring from town has to last longer than a level. Maybe as a separable value. (I don't actually remember when recommended starting equipment packages start showing up in books.)

Also, assuming you go with a default background, you're still supposed to have ideals, bond, and flaw, so those are more potential choices.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Oh yeah, I forgot about skill selection. That is a LOT more choices. The problem is that the number of choices depends on your race as well rather than being a flat number.


I think you could compare the starting equipment bundles with a few choices to the number of decisions that go into the "here's some gold and there's the equipment list" model. Depending on the game, quest, or module, the stuff you bring from town has to last longer than a level. Maybe as a separable value. (I don't actually remember when recommended starting equipment packages start showing up in books.)

Also, assuming you go with a default background, you're still supposed to have ideals, bond, and flaw, so those are more potential choices.

For the purposes I was using it for (assessing homebrew class design), race-based, personality, and equipment choices weren't important (because they're too variable). I could add a "non-level-dependent" column, but :shrug:. I put ideals/bond/flaw in with background (since that all is strongly interdependent).

The comparison to other editions came later as I was wondering (and had access to some books--that's why PF not 3.5). Given the gulf (and the fact that most of those choices have to be made in other editions as well), I don't think it changes the trends much.

I was surprised to see that fighters don't fare as badly as I thought--their lots of ASIs give them a respectable number of choices. Many classes that have few long-term choices have lots of short-term choices--druids and clerics especially. They are (comparatively) forgiving to build, but hard to play. Monks are also easy to build but have more difficult tactics.

[hymer]

You do realize that clerics and druids having few permanent choices is because they retain so many options on a day-to-day basis, right? It seems like you think that having a high number is a good thing. I think your numbers are instructive, but I'm not sure they mean what you think they mean.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You do realize that clerics and druids having few permanent choices is because they retain so many options on a day-to-day basis, right? It seems like you think that having a high number is a good thing. I think your numbers are instructive, but I'm not sure they mean what you think they mean.

I understand that. More is not good or bad, it's just different. Clerics and druids have lots of day-to-day complexity but little build/level-up complexity. Berserker barbarians have small amounts of either type of complexity--they have some tactical complexity though.

For my purposes, I was making sure I didn't have too many (too high build complexity) or too few (too narrow of build possibilities). Since both classes I was building were more analogous to spells-known casters, the comparison works. If they were full-list casters or pure martials, I'd interpret things differently.

The numbers are just interesting (looking at the range of structures) and comparing build-time complexity across editions. Nothing more.

[hymer]

The numbers are just interesting (looking at the range of structures) and comparing build-time complexity across editions. Nothing more.

Fair enough. :smallsmile:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Fair enough. :smallsmile:

I specifically said "I don't really have a point here, other than the interest."

[hymer]

I specifically said "I don't really have a point here, other than the interest."

What got me wondering was


I was surprised to see that fighters don't fare as badly as I thought--their lots of ASIs give them a respectable number of choices.

That sounded a little like more PDPs was 'better'.

[PhoenixPhyre]

What got me wondering was



That sounded a little like more PDPs was 'better'.

That was more surprise based on the meme that "champion fighters are bland and have no choices." There's a level at which you really do have too few (or too many) choices. 3e's Incarnum was on the high side--round-by-round management of small bonuses. The stereotype of 5e champion fighters is on the low side--I hit things. Then I hit them more. With no build-variation. Turns out that stereotype isn't as true as I thought it was.

[Talamare]

I don't think Skills should be 1 choice per choice.
Most Skills are fairly inconsequential and not really game changing.
It is nowhere near equivalent to choosing your Class.

When you choose a background, you must choose 2 more skills
When you choose certain races, you must choose 1-2 more skills

# of choices at level 1
Race
-Subrace
-- Feat for V.Human
Class
Starting Scores
Skills
Background

5-7 choices


Certain Classes get Additional Choices
Spells-known
Subclass
-Dragon sorcerers Color
Rogue Expertise
Rangers Terrain/favored enemy
Fighters Fighting style

Sorcerer potentially makes 2 additional choices
A few others make 1 additional choice