Item for infinite sorcerer spells

[flamewolf393]

So in 3.5 theres the memento magica, which can be activated once per day for an extra spontaneous spell slot. It costs 50% more than a pearl of power, or 1500gp for a first level slot, 121,500 for 9th level.

So lets use the official magic item creation rules for a moment. Creating a continuous/at will effect multiplies base cost by 2000gp. So we now have an item that grants at will 1st level spell slots. Im going to make it usable only by sorcs (30% off) cause that makes sense, but I wont cheese the price any further.

Infinite 1st level slots crafting price: 1,050,000gp
Infinite 9th level slots crafting price: 85,050,000gp

Infinite 1st-9th level slots crafting price: 299,250,000gp

What do you guys think? Is this completely OP or is the price suitable? Consider that a level 20 character is expected to have 880,000gp in a normal setting.

[BowStreetRunner]

...completely OP...
First of all, the Use-activated or continuous spell effect that the creation rules provide is for a single spell effect. The example given is Lantern of Revealing which gives a continuous Invisibility Purge. Since the item you suggest can theoretically be used to cast a different spell each time it is used, that price would be ridiculously low.

[Cosi]

Honestly, that item is already so obscenely expensive it doesn't even matter if it's priced "appropriately" or not. You can't afford the first level version at all until 22nd level and (IIRC) you can't get one as a starting character until 32nd level. At that point you could just become an Incantatrix 3/Primal Scholar 5 and use Persistent unfettered heroism + Secret of Power to get unlimited spells of 5th level or lower. Then start taking Legacy Champion levels to crank that up until you can refresh you 9th level spells for free. Or use awaken loops to get infinite CHA to get infinite spell slots. Or whatever that trick with Hive Minds was that someone came up with. Or set up something with self-resetting contingencies*. Or just buy a Ring of Infinite Wishes which gets you all 8th level or lower spells at will. Or something with fusion and monsters with casting. Or something with simulacrum, polymorph any object, Still Spell, and Silent Spell.

*: I can't quite get this to work, but if you can figure out how to reduce spell levels infinitely a la Sanctum Spell you can pop wish and some spell that gives you back spell slots out of the same greater arcane fusion which allows you to wish for a new Crafted Contingency greater arcane fusion keyed to "I have less than full spell slots" and get some more spell slots.

[flappeercraft]

*: I can't quite get this to work, but if you can figure out how to reduce spell levels infinitely a la Sanctum Spell you can pop wish and some spell that gives you back spell slots out of the same greater arcane fusion which allows you to wish for a new Crafted Contingency greater arcane fusion keyed to "I have less than full spell slots" and get some more spell slots.

Mind Mage maybe? From Dragon Mag 313

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Such an item would be a major artifact, not something any PC would ever be able to create. Artifacts have no price listed because they can't be obtained outside story-driven reasons put in place by the DM. Basically, you can't have something like that unless the DM gives it to you.

[Celestia]

85 million gold for at will 9ths? Unless you're using infinite money tricks, that's not even remotely obtainable, and even if you do use infinite money tricks, there are far more efficient ways to spend it. I honestly can't see any reason why I'd ever get something so worthless. Even if I got one for free in a random chest somewhere, I'd just sell it and build a flying castle out of riverine and platinum.

[Deophaun]

85 million gold for at will 9ths? Unless you're using infinite money tricks, that's not even remotely obtainable, and even if you do use infinite money tricks, there are far more efficient ways to spend it. I honestly can't see any reason why I'd ever get something so worthless. Even if I got one for free in a random chest somewhere, I'd just sell it and build a flying castle out of riverine and platinum.
^^^ This

By the time you can afford even the 1st-level version, Epic spells are a thing. These are curiosities. Toys. They don't meaningfully affect the character's power level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In order to create an item with a 299,250,000 gp base price, you would need to spend 11,970,000 xp. You can't spend so much xp that it causes you to lose a character level, and you definitely can't spend more than you have.

A level 50 character has only 1,225,000 total xp. I'm not even going to bother doing the math to figure out what level you would need to be to craft that without losing a level, but I'd expect it to be in the tens of thousands.

It also takes 299,250 days (820 years) of dedicated work to make.

Any character of an astronomically high enough level to be capable of making that item will consider 0-9th level spell slots to be peanuts, the item is worthless to them, and any character who could afford to buy it from them will think it's just as worthless. It's not worth the effort or expense to create, there's realistically no chance that the person creating it would have much use for it, and there's no way they could reasonably expect to sell it for any kind of profit. That amount of gold probably doesn't even exist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The logic and math look sound enough but, as others have noted, WBL kind tanks the whole idea for characters that aren't well into epic and who probably don't much care about sub-epic spells.

Up-shot: there's an epic feat that cuts crafting time to 1/10 and stuff to absorb xp costs for you so that it's possible to craft in a mere 82 years as soon as you can cover the gp costs.

[Khedrac]

So in 3.5 theres the memento magica, which can be activated once per day for an extra spontaneous spell slot. It costs 50% more than a pearl of power, or 1500gp for a first level slot, 121,500 for 9th level.

So lets use the official magic item creation rules for a moment. Creating a continuous/at will effect multiplies base cost by 2000gp. So we now have an item that grants at will 1st level spell slots. Im going to make it usable only by sorcs (30% off) cause that makes sense, but I wont cheese the price any further.

Infinite 1st level slots crafting price: 1,050,000gp
Infinite 9th level slots crafting price: 85,050,000gp

Infinite 1st-9th level slots crafting price: 299,250,000gp

What do you guys think? Is this completely OP or is the price suitable? Consider that a level 20 character is expected to have 880,000gp in a normal setting.
I don't think your numbers add up:
1st level: 1,500 × 2,000 × 70% = 2,100,000
9th level: 121,500 × 2,000 × 70% = 170,100,000
- You have used a 65% cost reduction not a 30% cost reduction...

At 30% reduction the total cost should be 585∙5Mgp

I thought you forgot the ×10 multiplier, but checking the rules you were right - thank-you for that bit!

If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10.Price over 200,000 gp is not a bonus.

Next up - xp cost. Again, I had forgotten that epic items are different:

The experience point cost to create an epic magic item is determined differently than for a normal magic item. For all epic magic items other than scrolls, divide the market price by 100, then add 10,000 XP to the result. The final number is the experience point cost to create the item.
For epic scrolls, divide the market price by 25 (as normal for creating a nonepic scroll), then add 1,000 XP to the result. The final number is the experience point cost to create the epic scroll.
This reduces the cost to create it to 3,002,500 xp (65% reduction) or 5,995,000 xp (30% reduction).
Even using the lowest figure to create this item you are using enough xp to reach 77th level (approx.) - even allowing for a lot of thought bottle tricks and similar, that's a colossal waste of xp.

[Elysiume]

It's a fair cost because, as other people have said, it's an impossible cost for an item that nobody should have (that also heavily bends the item creation rules). At that price you could have thousands of Pearls of Power IX. What usecase do you have to cast multiple thousands of spells per day?

[flamewolf393]

I don't think your numbers add up:
1st level: 1,500 × 2,000 × 70% = 2,100,000
9th level: 121,500 × 2,000 × 70% = 170,100,000
- You have used a 65% cost reduction not a 30% cost reduction...

At 30% reduction the total cost should be 585∙5Mgp

I thought you forgot the ×10 multiplier, but checking the rules you were right - thank-you for that bit!
Price over 200,000 gp is not a bonus.

Next up - xp cost. Again, I had forgotten that epic items are different:

This reduces the cost to create it to 3,002,500 xp (65% reduction) or 5,995,000 xp (30% reduction).
Even using the lowest figure to create this item you are using enough xp to reach 77th level (approx.) - even allowing for a lot of thought bottle tricks and similar, that's a colossal waste of xp.

Note that Im listing the *crafting* costs, not market value. Crafting only costs 1/2 the price of the item. 1st level memento magica has a price of 1500 (x2k = 3,000,000). Crafting costs half its price = 750 (1,500,000) then x.70 = 525 (1,050,000). 70% x 50%= 35%

Also, XP costs? People still actually use those? Ive never met a gaming group that still uses xp costs for crafting. Especially not since pathfinder came out. After that even the few hold outs gave up on it.

[Khedrac]

Note that Im listing the *crafting* costs, not market value. Crafting only costs 1/2 the price of the item. 1st level memento magica has a price of 1500 (x2k = 3,000,000). Crafting costs half its price = 750 (1,500,000) then x.70 = 525 (1,050,000). 70% x 50%= 35%
I should have thought of that.


Also, XP costs? People still actually use those? Ive never met a gaming group that still uses xp costs for crafting. Especially not since pathfinder came out. After that even the few hold outs gave up on it.
Since you ask - everyone I know; we also use multiclassing xp penalties.
What I think most people on these forums forget is that the forum users are in the minority by a very large amount - and to me it only appears to be the vocal minority of forum users who assume no one uses these things - as such you (plural) really need to state when you are using house rules (such as no xp crafting cost).

Incidentally, this item would be more useful if the spell slot recovery action was quickened to be a swift action or its similar.

[Cosi]

Also, at the standard rate of one day per 1000 GP, it would take 170,000 days to craft this item (around 465 years, or nearly twice as long as the United States has existed). For reference, if you had a single level-appropriate encounter on each of those days, assuming 14 encounters per level, you would hit level 12,000 before you would have finished crafting the item if you adventure instead. I don't know the spells per day of level 12,000 Sorcerer, but I think it's "enough".

[legomaster00156]

Frankly, Sorcerers already have more spells than they know what to do with. I don't see how this even remotely breaks the game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also, XP costs? People still actually use those? Ive never met a gaming group that still uses xp costs for crafting. Especially not since pathfinder came out. After that even the few hold outs gave up on it.

Of course. While 3.X game balance is a far cry from perfect, that's no reason to throw out things that actually help. Item crafting is an extraordinarily potent ability; powerful enough that having your level advancement slowed a bit is well warranted. Once you actually fall behind the rest of the party by 1 level then it stops being an issue since the extra xp from being behind offsets all but the most aggressive crafters' xp expenditures.

[Mato]

I read Flamewolf's post and had to reread it, several times. I'm not sure what he is trying to do here. He choose a price-inflated item, copied a section that scales by a spell's duration, applied a special discount, then claimed he didn't cheese it, changed to another price scale all together, and then forgot 20th level characters only get 760,000 gold before asking if it's price was reasonable. I don't know what his goal is, only that very little of his post makes sense.

A unlimited command activated wondrous item of miracle, which gives access to any 8th level cleric spell and any other 7th level spell ever printed, with a caster level of seventeen costs 275,400 gold. Since a majority of the price is based on caster level, which is exempt from epic price scaling, a 17th level character can purchase one. It doesn't come with free 9ths, or all of the possible 8ths, but I just saved you over eighty million gold to make a point about how custom crafting is broken and I hope we all know that by now.

Wishing for a full ring of three wishes by saying Pazuzu three times is still cheaper through.

[Crake]

Note that the cost of infinite use is only x5 of 1/day use. If you're okay with spending an action to recover your lost spell slots (after all, you can cast time stop, then spend your extra actions to recover more spell slots, then cast time stop, rinse and repeat until you've recovered all your spell slots), then the at will 9th level spell one becomes a much more affordable 425,250gp market value (after the 70% cost for making it sorc exclusive)

Of course, since it's over 200,000gp, we apply the epic item adjustment, multiplying it's cost by 10, resulting in a final cost of 4,252,500gp, half that to craft, and requiring 52,525xp to craft (epic item crafting rules use different xp costs, its not 1/25th, its 1/100th + a flat 10k).

Note there are methods to "store" xp, meaning you could craft something like this BEFORE level 53ish, but it would certainly be very cost-prohibitive.


I read Flamewolf's post and had to reread it, several times. I'm not sure what he is trying to do here. He choose a price-inflated item, copied a section that scales by a spell's duration, applied a special discount, then claimed he didn't cheese it, changed to another price scale all together, and then forgot 20th level characters only get 760,000 gold before asking if it's price was reasonable. I don't know what his goal is, only that very little of his post makes sense.

A unlimited command activated wondrous item of miracle, which gives access to any 8th level cleric spell and any other 7th level spell ever printed, with a caster level of seventeen costs 275,400 gold. Since a majority of the price is based on caster level, which is exempt from epic price scaling, a 17th level character can purchase one. It doesn't come with free 9ths, or all of the possible 8ths, but I just saved you over eighty million gold to make a point about how custom crafting is broken and I hope we all know that by now.

Wishing for a full ring of three wishes by saying Pazuzu three times is still cheaper through.

There is an blanket statement that an item over 200,000gp is typically considered epic. You would need DM permission to classify it as non-epic, even though it's CL is 17th and you'd likely be hard pressed to find a DM that would say an item of at will wish/miracle isn't epic.

[Mato]

There is an blanket statement that an item over 200,000gp is typically considered epic.This is an educational moment isn't it?

*Ahem*
That is called affirming the consequent and it's a formal logical fallacy.

The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
* Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.
An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.
So having a price tag over 200,000gp can make it an "epic item" (but this isn't absolute). But it's important to remember that the pricing is not directly applied to "epic items" but it's applied based on other factors. In this case, there is no epic-ranged bonus.

Let's check the specific entry.

Market Price
Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.Same thing again but even if you put the bonus part aside a 17th level spell is not beyond the limit of nonepic magical items. For example, a candle of invocation & censer of controlling air elementals are both capable of casting 9th level spells and a pearl of power can recover a 9th level slot. 9th level spells them selves are not epic spells and they are non-epic content. We can also see caster level is exempt, in other words a wand of wings of flurry with a caster level of one hundred, which has a price tag of 300,000, will not have it's cost additionally multiplied by ten even through it's caster level and market price could both be considered to be in the epic range.

Would you, as a DM, want the price tag to be higher? Probably. Consider reading WotC's official articles on this matter released under the game rule section of their website for more insight on pricing guidelines and how you should scale them based on the usefulness of the spell replicated.