PDA

View Full Version : Could a Warforged really be good?



raistlin807
2007-08-27, 11:16 PM
One of my favorite carachters ever was a warforged Barbarian (in the Eberron setting) Who was a Chaotic Evil Barbarian, due to his service on the frontlines of the Last War. I liked this guy- I named him 1 due to the alphabetic order of the Barbarian in the PHB. And he steadily became more and more insane and depraved a hatred for the living, due to his inability to integrate with his biological neghibours. I had numerous debates with the rest of my group on weather or not a warforged could stay sane when unable to experience all of the little aspects of life that the rest of us take for granted. No taste, love, any pleasure other than whatever he can convince himself to feel. What are your opinions on how a Warforged would REALLY feel in our society?


(He was eventually killed by a mob. God rest his badass, first degree murdering self)

JadedDM
2007-08-27, 11:24 PM
Maybe if you programmed the Three Laws of Robotics into him?

Beleriphon
2007-08-27, 11:25 PM
No taste, love, any pleasure other than whatever he can convince himself to feel. What are your opinions on how a Warforged would REALLY feel in our society?

Its never been implied that warforged don't feel these things, only that they feel them differently. Love in particular is an emotion, something warforged do have, even if House Cannith did everything they could to make their construct soldier ignore those emotions.

I would assume that a warforged would feel however their unique personality would make them feel. If I were to take a guess many warforged would feel lost, they've had everything they ever knew taken away from them. They suddenly have to integrate with people that might hate them. They might find true friendship with a kindred group of fleshies in New Cyre.

Skyserpent
2007-08-27, 11:29 PM
While it's true that Warforged tend towards neutrality, they do in fact, possess sapience, and thus, personalities, so while one may grow spiteful of his loneliness, another my take it upon itself and it's biological "Superiority" to protect it's creator race to the best of it's ability. Unlike the "Three Laws" Robots of modern mythos, Warforged are completely individual beings with their own rationalizations and personalities, so some may well be evil and another may actively pursue good, Programming is only as significant as a player wants to make it. Warforged possess a sense of Self, also: Lack of taste, and other human feelings are not like losing them. A Warforged never knew what taste was, so whether it's positive or negative won't even come up. It's an alien concept. So one might want to understand and maybe become a "Reforged" from the Races of Ebberron book, or another might simply choose to live life, and not bother with things he wasn't meant to bother with. Honestly, my last warforged was so proud of his organic superiority that he pitied organisms bound by extraneous sensory perceptions like taste.

Tallis
2007-08-27, 11:41 PM
While it's true that Warforged tend towards neutrality, they do in fact, possess sapience, and thus, personalities, so while one may grow spiteful of his loneliness, another my take it upon itself and it's biological "Superiority" to protect it's creator race to the best of it's ability. Unlike the "Three Laws" Robots of modern mythos, Warforged are completely individual beings with their own rationalizations and personalities, so some may well be evil and another may actively pursue good, Programming is only as significant as a player wants to make it. Warforged possess a sense of Self, also: Lack of taste, and other human feelings are not like losing them. A Warforged never knew what taste was, so whether it's positive or negative won't even come up. It's an alien concept. So one might want to understand and maybe become a "Reforged" from the Races of Ebberron book, or another might simply choose to live life, and not bother with things he wasn't meant to bother with. Honestly, my last warforged was so proud of his organic superiority that he pitied organisms bound by extraneous sensory perceptions like taste.

What he said.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-28, 12:14 AM
I had numerous debates with the rest of my group on weather or not a warforged could stay sane when unable to experience all of the little aspects of life that the rest of us take for granted.


Hey, I have Asperger's Syndrome and there's a lot of experiences that people take for granted I can't experience. But that just means that my experience is going to be different. I am not necessarily going to break/i] one day just because of that.

People adapt. I would assume war forged do the same. Probably this is going to be in much a similar fashion. Carefully observing people and making educated guesses.

I mean, it's actually kind of insulting. "Oh hey, I can't understand people. It's too much! I'm going to flip out!" (No I'm not insulted, don't worry) People can be a lot tougher than we give ourselves credit for. I'm constantly running into situations where it's taken for granted that when faced with the slightest adversity [i]naturally they'll kill themselves. Or go on a killing spree and then kill themselves. Makes me sick. Yeah I'm a cynic but will exists for crying out loud. And will is more powerful a force than any black hole.

Okay. Maybe not everyone can handle being unable to fit in. But the characters people play are heroes. Don't most heroes have a will of iron? (The existence of low will saves makes this debatable) I think the guy ready to die for the world is probably going to be able to accept it if he has problems relating to people. (I think a character concept is coming)

I don't know that much about Warforged, but my impression is that they are essentially artificially created people. So they should definitely have will as well.

I also think beings that do not have emotions should not be able to go insane :P In fact, if you didn't have feelings your character should have been true neutral. Even if you 'malfunctioned' and started murdering people.



Now, that you did actually go insane is also a totally valid character option. It's actually a pretty good reason for going insane. But not your only one. If you're forced into it, it's not nearly as compelling a story. "Unable to relate to people? Oh it's a foregone conclusion you flip out and kill them all."

</rant> and </angst>

Alleine
2007-08-28, 12:23 AM
Well, for starters, I really don't think a warforged would have a whole lot of trouble with not being able to experiance certain things, like taste. After all, how do you long for something you cannot comprehend at all? I may be completely wrong here, so ignore me if I am or correct me, but if a warforged can't feel certain kinds of love,(since they really have no use for it, not being able to reproduce like that, but still being capable of love in some form) why would it drive them mad? Just because I can't experiance nor comprehend what some animals do that I think is really cool doesn't mean I'll go insane because of it.

Sure, some warforged will have trouble, after all they're just as diverse as people are, but the whole probably wouldn't have any more problems than regular people.

raistlin807
2007-08-28, 11:08 AM
Hey, I have Asperger's Syndrome and there's a lot of experiences that people take for granted I can't experience. But that just means that my experience is going to be different. I am not necessarily going to [i]break/i] one day just because of that.


</rant> and </angst>

I meant no insult, but let's just say that Mr. Asperger's was forced to fight in an unpopular war for people his race was created solely to serve. I think it is taken for granted that the warforged were expected to fight and die for everyone else ON TOP of of not fitting in.

Toliudar
2007-08-28, 12:18 PM
Is that all so different from being drafted into the military?

Granted, there's a racist element to Warforgeds' experiences, but I'd agree that there's nothing predisposing them to insanity and wanton slaughter. In fact, I'd suggest that the ones who survived the war are more likely to be the ones that struggled to maintain a kind of mental equilibrium, essentially weeding out some of the mentally imbalanced soldiers.

bosssmiley
2007-08-28, 01:19 PM
Maybe if you programmed the Three Laws of Robotics into him?

The Three Laws, aka: The Ultimate Paladin Code. :smallcool:

Of course a Warforged can be good without external compulsion. He can consciously decide to follow the customary precepts of the Good alignments as a moral/ethical choice open to him as a sentient being.

"Why do I act in this way? Because it does not harm me, and it brings benefit to others. How can this be other than logical?"

Pratchett's "Feet of Clay" has this as the linchpin of the whole story. Are Dorfl or the golems of "Going Postal" less virtuous because they cannot smell, or have no sense of humour? A little more awkward to be around perhaps, but that's about it. Ditto for Warforged. Ditto for Wintermute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromancer). Ditto for Optimus Prime.

My 2cp.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-28, 01:23 PM
Warforged can taste though :smallbiggrin:

Warforged Senses

The warforged possess the same five senses that human beings do: sight, smell, hearing, touch, and even taste. They do not perceive the world in precisely the same way as humans do, and many of these senses are fairly dull in comparison to those of creatures of flesh and blood. But a warforged can smell smoke in the air and can gauge the extent of an injury by the pain that it feels. Many warforged value the magical component known as the tracker mask because it expands their sense of smell, allowing them to experience the world in a new way. But a warforged can still smell strong odors without the mask.

The warforged sense of taste is one of the mysteries of the race. It has little value to a soldier and creature that has no need of food. In fact, this is not something that was designed by the artificers of House Cannith. Warforged are not automatons, and not every aspect of the warforged is the result of human planning: They are creatures of magic that defy natural law. A warforged is a creature of stone and wood, yet it can feel love and hate. Is it any stranger that it should be able to smell and taste?



Yeah. I know... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050711a)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-28, 01:28 PM
Hm. A Warforged Paladin that follows the Three Laws of Robotics (less the Zeroth) as his code. That has possibilities...

And anyway, of course Warforged can be good. They're artificial but sapient beings, not automata. As beings with an intelligence score and no alignment innate to their form (like aligned Outsiders), they can be any alignment.

Now, their detachment from typical sapient emotions and mores probably means they tend more toward neutrality than other species, but it's by no means a hard and fast restriction on how they think.

Stephen_E
2007-08-28, 07:21 PM
Re: Warforged been isolated in the armies.
They would've had other Warforged. Indeed it would make sense to have units primarily existing of warforged. Thus they'd have a community of their own kind while fighting.

There is a series of 3 science fiction books by an australian writer, Joel Shepherd - Crossover, Breakaway & Killswitch which possit a universe where two human cultures went to war and the one with the smaller population created a SF form of warforged. The books are after the war and follow a special advanced model who's gone awol and is intergrating herself (the designers made them look like humans) into society. It does a very good job of looking at how and why a "warforged" might try and become a part of biological society.

Indeed a warforged who truly wanted to learn to understand and join biological society would probably look at getting sexual organs (and the sensory packages to go with them) built on. Afterall sex is a huge part of biologicals psychology. If you wish to understand the humanoids you need to have some understanding of sex. And yes, I'd guarantee they'd be able to find biological partners if they had any positive charisma bonus and/or social skills.

Stephen

mabriss lethe
2007-08-29, 12:06 PM
Re: Warforged been isolated in the armies.
They would've had other Warforged. Indeed it would make sense to have units primarily existing of warforged. Thus they'd have a community of their own kind while fighting.

There is a series of 3 science fiction books by an australian writer, Joel Shepherd - Crossover, Breakaway & Killswitch which possit a universe where two human cultures went to war and the one with the smaller population created a SF form of warforged. The books are after the war and follow a special advanced model who's gone awol and is intergrating herself (the designers made them look like humans) into society. It does a very good job of looking at how and why a "warforged" might try and become a part of biological society.

Indeed a warforged who truly wanted to learn to understand and join biological society would probably look at getting sexual organs (and the sensory packages to go with them) built on. Afterall sex is a huge part of biologicals psychology. If you wish to understand the humanoids you need to have some understanding of sex. And yes, I'd guarantee they'd be able to find biological partners if they had any positive charisma bonus and/or social skills.

Stephen

"Wow! You're like a machine in the sack."

Caduceus
2007-08-29, 12:32 PM
It has been noted in various sources that the emotions of Warforged were unwanted by the Cannith artificers who forged them. The emotions are likely a necessary byproduct of Aaren d'Cannith's intentions to create true life with human-like souls. The warforged crafted with the intentions of sending them to war were made using the same designs, likely because they were the only schemas House Cannith had to go by, and since the emotions couldn't be prevented, they were suppressed, not through "programming," but conditioning. They were taught to take joy in battle, as that was their "true purpose."

Since the end of the war, the 'forged have no battlefields to act on this "true purpose," thus forcing them to adapt and try to find their own way in the world. Some sought bonds with humans similar to those found in the military, such as a "commanding officer" to give them orders. Others merely eaked out an existence trying to make the money to repair damage they had taken in the war. The 'forged artificers likely had an easier time finding a place, as they were conditioned to be "healers" for their kin.

And, yeah, warforged have all the senses of humans, even if not the biological functions.

Irreverent Fool
2007-08-29, 01:17 PM
Is that all so different from being drafted into the military?

I don't suppose it is. But you raise an interesting point. Many (American) veterans of the Vietnam war were drafted into a fight they didn't agree with, expected to fight and die for ideals that were not necessarily their own, and were greeted upon return with either a lukewarm reception or outright hostility causing many to suffer a lifetime of deep depression and -- in some cases -- outright dementia and insanity.

So, I don't think it's pushing things too far to say that warforged might suffer emotional problems and possibly madness when repeatedly subjected to fear and/or hostility from people they were created to fight and die for. Like many of the others here, I don't fully agree with the 'lack of sensation' reasoning but the character sounds totally valid overall.

They don't *have* to go insane. They may even be so grateful for their creation that they have developed a 'turn-the-other-cheek' attitude and are willing to forgive the natural races nearly anything in addition to being very calm and introspective. As has been stated, each warforged personality is unique as anyone else's.

Now, if you wanted to alter the Eberron campaign setting so that most warforged do go mad, that might be an interesting world to play in. :D