Odd character plan, rules check. The Melee Archer

[Dudewithknives]

Ok, so I had this interesting idea, but want to run it by the forum to check my rules because it gets a little wonky.


Build is for level 8

Class: Fighter: Battlemaster
Race: Does not matter really but let's go with Wood Elf.
Rolled stats are in and adjusted for
House rule is that everyone gets a bonus feat at level 1.

Stats:

Str: 20
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Fighting Style: Archery - +2 to attack rolls with ranged weapons.

FEATS:

Tavern Brawler: Proficiency with improvised is the main point, other parts are a bonus, took +1 Con
SharpShooter: When you make an attack with a ranged weapon -5/+10, ignore cover, no ranged penalty
Great Weapon Master: When you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon -5/+10, crit with melee weapon gets bonus attack.


Magic Items:

+1 Magical Longbow
Bracers of Archery
whatever else I can find

So here is the plan:

Normal archery greatness with Longbow + Sharpshooter + Archery + Bracers of Archery

Here is the trick though, if they get into melee range with me, I just hit them with the bow.

1. Thanks to Tavern Brawler I am proficient with a longbow as a melee weapon because it will be improvised, it will only do 1d4 but that is fine. +1 because of magic weapon too.

2. It is a two handed heavy weapon, so if I wanted I could use GWM to take -5/+10, it only specifies a "Melee attack with a heavy weapon" not melee weapon, only melee attack

3. Archery fighting style gives +2 to hit with ranged weapons, however it does not say it has to be a ranged attack to do it. So I can use the bow to club someone with and get +2 to hit.

4. Sharpshooter also only specifies attack with ranged weapon, so I can, if i really wanted, take -5/+10 from it as well.

Against lower AC enemies that get into melee, Battlemaster to trip them for advantage, then if needed -5/+10 or even -10/+20 to hit, but with advantage and precision attack as backup, and +2 because of archery.

Just an idea I had for an archer to have melee backup, bow clubbing on the way.

[strangebloke]

"Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to Attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to Attack a target at a distance."

Is it a ranged weapon or isn't it? :smalltongue:

This text reads to me that all weapons are either ranged or melee. You are not making a ranged attack with a ranged weapon, you are making a melee attack with an (improvised) melee weapon. I guess you could argue that, technically, it is a ranged weapon that is acting as a melee weapon...

eh.

And this just gives further credence to the idea that 'weapon attack, melee weapon attack, etc. etc.' is one of the greatest points of confusion in 5e.

Nice find, btw.

[A Fat Dragon]

I’d rule a bow to have similar damage to a quarter-staff or a club while being improvised, but not sure if your DM would do so.

[othaero]

Ok, so I had this interesting idea, but want to run it by the forum to check my rules because it gets a little wonky.

So here is the plan:

Normal archery greatness with Longbow + Sharpshooter + Archery + Bracers of Archery

Here is the trick though, if they get into melee range with me, I just hit them with the bow.

1. Thanks to Tavern Brawler I am proficient with a longbow as a melee weapon because it will be improvised, it will only do 1d4 but that is fine. +1 because of magic weapon too.

2. It is a two handed heavy weapon, so if I wanted I could use GWM to take -5/+10, it only specifies a "Melee attack with a heavy weapon" not melee weapon, only melee attack

3. Archery fighting style gives +2 to hit with ranged weapons, however it does not say it has to be a ranged attack to do it. So I can use the bow to club someone with and get +2 to hit.

4. Sharpshooter also only specifies attack with ranged weapon, so I can, if i really wanted, take -5/+10 from it as well.

Against lower AC enemies that get into melee, Battlemaster to trip them for advantage, then if needed -5/+10 or even -10/+20 to hit, but with advantage and precision attack as backup, and +2 because of archery.

Just an idea I had for an archer to have melee backup, bow clubbing on the way.

So technically I think you could. But using the Sharpshooter I don't think would work since the Longbow is now being considered a melee weapon which wouldn't qualify as a ranged weapon. If one of my players attempted this I don't think I'd allow you to use GWM because that is just silly.

[Twigwit]

If you're really set on this incredibly extreme cheese why not go Kensei? They're allowed to use Longbows as an exception to their no heavy weapon rule and it negates the need to have a 20 in STR and DEX.

[Dudewithknives]

This is not going to be his main schtick or anything, but I like the idea of just clubbing someone with a bow instead of switching weapons.

I probably won't even take GWM, not worth it, it is more of just one of those things that, well I could if I wanted kind of things.

I will take tavern brawler though, I can use the +1 con and the improvised weapon proficiency is good, you never know when that might come up.

[Dudewithknives]

If you're really set on this incredibly extreme cheese why not go Kensei? They're allowed to use Longbows as an exception to their no heavy weapon rule and it negates the need to have a 20 in STR and DEX.

Monks just don't have enough feats around with their need for better stats, also Kensei is garbage, it is a complete trap option.

[DivisibleByZero]

An improvised weapon is not a weapon, and has no weapon properties.... because it is not a weapon (edit: unless the DM rules otherwise).
Using a bow as an improvised melee weapon removes the Heavy and Two-Handed properties. You're basically just using it as a club (without the Light property), which is why it deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Monks just don't have enough feats around with their need for better stats, also Kensei is garbage, it is a complete trap option.

lol wut m8? Trap? Kensei is perfectly fine. How is it a trap option?

[Quoz]

I'm going to say that if you use a bow as an improvised weapon for a melee attack it is not a ranged weapon for the attack. Just as using a ranged weapon to attack an adjacent target is not a melee attack.

I think you may be better off dropping great weapon master for crossbow expertise to use ranged attacks in melee without penalty. Some GMs may still allow a shield with a hand crossbow, but if not use the free hand for thrown weapons or even grappling. Use the grappled creature as a human shield against other enemies.

With the stat array you have you get a lot of flexibility. If you can reorder them, a level of monk or barbarian for unarmored defense would do you wonders. Monk is probably the better fit for your build, go dex 20 wis 20 for 20 AC and unarmed strikes as good as tavern brawler.

[Dudewithknives]

An improvised weapon is not a weapon, and has no weapon properties.... because it is not a weapon.
Using a bow as an improvised melee weapon removes the Heavy and Two-Handed properties. You're basically just using it as a club (without the Light property), which is why it deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

" If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage."

Nowhere, in any way, does it ever say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon, nor does it say anywhere that what you are using loses any traits that it had.

If you, for some unknown reason decide to throw a great sword, it is still two-handed, and heavy, it just does 1d4 damage instead of the normal 2d6, and unless you have tavern brawler or the like you are not going to add your proficiency bonus.

If a person is going to use an improvised weapon that was never a weapon in the first place, like a chair, broken bottle, ect then the DM is free to give it whatever traits he feels fits the item, but if it is a weapon already but is used in a manner it is not made for all that changes is the damage becomes 1d4 and you are not proficient.

[AHF]

Using a bow or other weapon that is ranged when used as intended as an improvised weapon deprives it of its ranged weapon status as it becomes an improvised weapon instead based on my reading. An improvised club does not "Attack a target at a distance." There is no difference between a bow and a leg broken off from a table when both are used as improvised weapons as replacements for clubs - both are considered improvised weapons and not ranged or melee weapons.

Improvised weapons include in their definition:

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee Attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

My ruling as DM would be that no improvised weapon has the ranged property. It is an improvised weapon. Archery and sharpshooter don't apply to improvised weapons.

Great Weapon Master would apply to the longbow based on its weight/heavy status. The way the item is used doesn't impact how heavy it is.

Seems super cheesy to try to argue "I use my archery skills and sharpshooter feat while I hit this guy at point blank range with my improvised weapon longbow." By that line of rationale, it wouldn't even matter if the longbow had not string and couldn't be used to fire arrows at a distance. Would be ironic to be unable to use the sharpshooter feet with a broken longbow to hit an enemy at a distance but is fine to get the sharpshooter feat when used as a club.

[A Fat Dragon]

Didn’t see that, sorry.

Well, thinking about it now, that could be a cool magical weapon: A spiked/bladed bow. It’d be terribly unusable in the real world, but it could be like, an uncommon weapon that allows you to deal an extra 1d4 piercing or slashing damage whenever you use a bow in melee combat.

[DivisibleByZero]

" If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage."

Nowhere, in any way, does it ever say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon,1 nor does it say anywhere that what you are using loses any traits that it had.

If you, for some unknown reason decide to throw a great sword, it is still two-handed, and heavy, it just does 1d4 damage instead of the normal 2d6, and unless you have tavern brawler or the like you are not going to add your proficiency bonus.

If a person is going to use an improvised weapon that was never a weapon in the first place, like a chair, broken bottle, ect then the DM is free to give it whatever traits he feels fits the item, but if it is a weapon already but is used in a manner it is not made for all that changes is the damage becomes 1d4 and you are not proficient.2
1 Yes, it absolutely does indeed say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. See below
2 That's the DM's call, not yours. Trying to base a potential build concept around it is a terrible idea.


Using a bow or other weapon that is ranged when used as intended as an improvised weapon deprives it of its ranged weapon status as it becomes an improvised weapon instead based on my reading. An improvised club does not "Attack a target at a distance." There is no difference between a bow and a leg broken off from a table when both are used as improvised weapons as replacements for clubs - both are considered improvised weapons and not ranged or melee weapons.

Improvised weapons include in their definition:
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee Attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
My ruling as DM would be that no improvised weapon has the ranged property. It is an improvised weapon. Archery and sharpshooter don't apply to improvised weapons.

Great Weapon Master would apply to the longbow based on its weight/heavy status. The way the item is used doesn't impact how heavy it is.
First, you left off the important part of the ImpWeap's description.

Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM ’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it w ere that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.

I'm going to repeat that first part for Dude:
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
An improvised weapon is a thing, anything, which is not a weapon, but it being used as a weapon.
That's what an improvised weapon is.
If it is not a weapon, it cannot have any weapon properties (unless the DM declares it to be so). That part should be glaringly obvious. If it's not a weapon, then it can't have weapon properties by default.
If you use a bow as an improvised weapon, this means that while being used in this manner, it is NOT a weapon (that's *why* it has to be improvised in this case) and it no longer has the Two-Handed or Heavy properties (because if it isn't a weapon then it can't have weapon properties by default), unless the DM says that it retains them.

If you disagree with any of that, then please refer me to where a bow is listed on the melee weapons table.
You can't, because it isn't there, because it isn't a melee weapon. Which means, when used in melee, it is NOT a weapon and becomes an improvised weapon just like a table leg or a dead goblin, which means it has no weapon properties unless the DM says that it does.

[AHF]

1 Yes, it absolutely does indeed say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. See below
2 That's the DM's call, not yours. Trying to base a potential build concept around it is a terrible idea.


First, you left off the important part of the ImpWeap's description.


I'm going to repeat that first part for Dude:
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
An improvised weapon is a thing, anything, which is not a weapon, but it being used as a weapon.
That's what an improvised weapon is.
If it is not a weapon, it cannot have any weapon properties (unless the DM declares it to be so). That part should be glaringly obvious. If it's not a weapon, then it can't have weapon properties by default.
If you use a bow as an improvised weapon, this means that while being used in this manner, it is NOT a weapon (that's *why* it has to be improvised in this case) and it no longer has the Two-Handed or Heavy properties (because if it isn't a weapon then it can't have weapon properties by default), unless the DM says that it retains them.

If you disagree with any of that, then please refer me to where a bow is listed on the melee weapons table.
You can't, because it isn't there, because it isn't a melee weapon. Which mean, when used in melee, it is NOT a weapon, which means it has no weapon properties unless the DM says that it does.

Fair. Can't disagree with any of that.

[Dudewithknives]

lol wut m8? Trap? Kensei is perfectly fine. How is it a trap option?

1. It gives you proficiency in 2 weapons at level 3, then gives you more choices later. The more choices later are just added in to pad abilities to look like it gets more better. Never have I ever seen anyone use more than 2. It is a waste of space used to make it look better.

2. Agile Parry: You have to give up one of your weapon attacks, that you just got from taking kensei in the first place, to get 2 AC. So at level 3 and 4, you just got the ability to use a longsword, battle-ax, whatever. However if you want the 2 AC the subclass gives you, which monks desperately need a lot of times, you have to stand there and hold the new fancy weapon you learned how to use, and just punch people anyway. Because flurry of blows and martial arts are part of your bonus action and not part of the attack action they do not count. Even when you are level 5+ you will be making a big total of 1 attack with your weapon your entire subclass is based on to get the AC and just punching people like every other monk.

3. Kensei Shot is not that bad. Bonus action to get 1d4 more damage from a ranged weapon is fine if there is nobody within melee range or walking range to hit with your bonus action in the first place. 90% of the time though, just use your great movement range to hit something else with your bonus action.

4. Magic Kensei Weapons: At level 6 this is borderline unneeded, level 6 is about the time you will have a magic weapon anyway. Again, good chance you are only making one attack with it a turn anyway.

5. Deft Strike: 1 Ki for a very weak smite, or you could you know, spend that 1 ki and make a whole extra attack. Also it has to be with the kensei weapon, so can't use it unarmed. Again, might just be making only one kensei weapon attack anyway.

6. Sharpen the Blade: You can spend up to 3 Ki points to enhance your weapon up to a +3. Great, this is an amazing ability... until you notice you get it at level 11, and it only works on a weapon that is not a +1/2/3 in the first place.

So that means that it will work on:

Dancing Sword - a VERY RARE sword that gains no bonus to hit, damage, or really anything other than being a weapon version of the Spiritual weapon spell,
The Flame Tongue - an actual good choice assuming you randomly find one that is not a the great sword version. This is the best choice. Only rare and adds 2d6 fire.
Frost Brand - VERY RARE and just adds 1d6 cold damage and gives fire resistance
Javelin of Lightning - uncommon, but only one use, and now you have thrown your + magic weapon at someone and have to go get it to make it useful again.
Mace of Disruption - Rare and not really worth using unless you are in a very fiend/undead centered game.
Mace of Terror - RARE and a pretty horrible weapon in the first place.
Oathbow - Best choice if you want a bow, which let's face it, everyone will take a longbow as a choice.
Sword of Life Stealing - Not a bad choice at all, especially if you can get advantage easily, even better with elven accuracy too. A very solid choice
Sword of Sharpness - A much more expensive and slightly more damaging Sword of Life Stealing, I will take the 10THP though over the sharpness abilities
Weapon of Wounding - You might could build around using this, but it is wonky with the odd way the saves work. Need many attack to make it worth it, but might just be making one.
Trident of Fish Command - Yeah, nobody is going to use this.
Vicious Weapon - Same rarity as the Sword of Life Stealing but much worse. 7 damage or 10 damage and gain 10 THP...

So of ALL the weapons in the game you can use it on 12, only like 3 of which anyone would go out of their way to use. Or you could just carry a +2 weapon of whatever you normally use and not spend Ki every fight on a crap ability.

7. Unerring accuracy - This ability actually is great, this makes total sense.

[Dudewithknives]

1 Yes, it absolutely does indeed say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. See below
2 That's the DM's call, not yours. Trying to base a potential build concept around it is a terrible idea.


First, you left off the important part of the ImpWeap's description.


I'm going to repeat that first part for Dude:
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
An improvised weapon is a thing, anything, which is not a weapon, but it being used as a weapon.
That's what an improvised weapon is.
If it is not a weapon, it cannot have any weapon properties (unless the DM declares it to be so). That part should be glaringly obvious. If it's not a weapon, then it can't have weapon properties by default.
If you use a bow as an improvised weapon, this means that while being used in this manner, it is NOT a weapon (that's *why* it has to be improvised in this case) and it no longer has the Two-Handed or Heavy properties (because if it isn't a weapon then it can't have weapon properties by default), unless the DM says that it retains them.

If you disagree with any of that, then please refer me to where a bow is listed on the melee weapons table.
You can't, because it isn't there, because it isn't a melee weapon. Which means, when used in melee, it is NOT a weapon and becomes an improvised weapon just like a table leg or a dead goblin, which means it has no weapon properties unless the DM says that it does.

Please refer me to anywhere that it actual says that improvised weapons do not have traits.
You are inferring, it does not say that anywhere.

You exactly say: "An improvised weapon is a thing, anything, which is not a weapon, but it being used as a weapon."

That is a you quote, not a book quote.

It does not say that an improvised weapon are not considered weapons, that is only you.
Weapons can be:
Melee weapons
Ranged weapons
Everything else is improvised weapons
or
Unarmed Strike which is not considered a weapon.

An improvised weapon is any object used as a weapon.

They are referred to as "Improvised Weapons" not "Objects you can make attacks with"

As a matter of fact it even specifically says that "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage."

Or of course you could just listed to Jeremy Crawford, he specifically says they are a weapon.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/a-shield-isnt-a-weapon/

Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
@mackenzie884 An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such. A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise.
1:04 PM - Nov 17, 2015

[DivisibleByZero]

Or of course you could just listed to Jeremy Crawford, he specifically says they are a weapon.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/a-shield-isnt-a-weapon/

Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
@mackenzie884 An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such. A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise.
1:04 PM - Nov 17, 2015

Congratulations on seeing what you want to see and ignoring the part that you don't want to see.

What you saw: An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such.
What you ignored: A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise.

[Dudewithknives]

Congratulations on seeing what you want to see and ignoring the part that you don't want to see.

What you saw: An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such.
What you ignored: A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise.

Yes, it is a weapon when you use it as a weapon, it is not a weapon when it is just sitting around.

It is plain common English, I know you are smart enough to read and understand it.

You are simply wrong, let it go.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm just going to stop clicking View Post in this thread.

[Rogerdodger557]

1. It gives you proficiency in 2 weapons at level 3, then gives you more choices later. The more choices later are just added in to pad abilities to look like it gets more better. Never have I ever seen anyone use more than 2. It is a waste of space used to make it look better.
It means that monks have more weapons that they can use Dex and in crease the damage die for. It allows for weapons that are typically passed over to actually be used and be useful. Whip, anyone?



2. Agile Parry: You have to give up one of your weapon attacks, that you just got from taking kensei in the first place, to get 2 AC. So at level 3 and 4, you just got the ability to use a longsword, battle-ax, whatever. However if you want the 2 AC the subclass gives you, which monks desperately need a lot of times, you have to stand there and hold the new fancy weapon you learned how to use, and just punch people anyway. Because flurry of blows and martial arts are part of your bonus action and not part of the attack action they do not count. Even when you are level 5+ you will be making a big total of 1 attack with your weapon your entire subclass is based on to get the AC and just punching people like every other monk.
You don't have to give up one of your attacks. That is just not how the ability works.



6. Sharpen the Blade: You can spend up to 3 Ki points to enhance your weapon up to a +3. Great, this is an amazing ability... until you notice you get it at level 11, and it only works on a weapon that is not a +1/2/3 in the first place.

Oh, getting a bonus to hit stuff with weapons that normally don't is a bad option simply because you get it at higher levels? Bladelocks get it for 1 weapon(at a time) that takes an action to summon, gets only a +1, as an invocation. But you can get it at level 3, so it must be that much better, right?/s

A second note on this: any kensei weapon can receive this bonus.

[bobofwestgate]

1 Yes, it absolutely does indeed say that an improvised weapon is not a weapon. See below
2 That's the DM's call, not yours. Trying to base a potential build concept around it is a terrible idea.


First, you left off the important part of the ImpWeap's description.


I'm going to repeat that first part for Dude:
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
An improvised weapon is a thing, anything, which is not a weapon, but it being used as a weapon.
That's what an improvised weapon is.
If it is not a weapon, it cannot have any weapon properties (unless the DM declares it to be so). That part should be glaringly obvious. If it's not a weapon, then it can't have weapon properties by default.
If you use a bow as an improvised weapon, this means that while being used in this manner, it is NOT a weapon (that's *why* it has to be improvised in this case) and it no longer has the Two-Handed or Heavy properties (because if it isn't a weapon then it can't have weapon properties by default), unless the DM says that it retains them.

If you disagree with any of that, then please refer me to where a bow is listed on the melee weapons table.
You can't, because it isn't there, because it isn't a melee weapon. Which means, when used in melee, it is NOT a weapon and becomes an improvised weapon just like a table leg or a dead goblin, which means it has no weapon properties unless the DM says that it does.

Now I just want to take it so I can beat someone to death with a dead goblin

[strangebloke]

1. It gives you proficiency in 2 weapons at level 3, then gives you more choices later. The more choices later are just added in to pad abilities to look like it gets more better. Never have I ever seen anyone use more than 2. It is a waste of space used to make it look better.

2. Agile Parry: You have to give up one of your weapon attacks, that you just got from taking kensei in the first place, to get 2 AC. So at level 3 and 4, you just got the ability to use a longsword, battle-ax, whatever. However if you want the 2 AC the subclass gives you, which monks desperately need a lot of times, you have to stand there and hold the new fancy weapon you learned how to use, and just punch people anyway. Because flurry of blows and martial arts are part of your bonus action and not part of the attack action they do not count. Even when you are level 5+ you will be making a big total of 1 attack with your weapon your entire subclass is based on to get the AC and just punching people like every other monk.

3. Kensei Shot is not that bad. Bonus action to get 1d4 more damage from a ranged weapon is fine if there is nobody within melee range or walking range to hit with your bonus action in the first place. 90% of the time though, just use your great movement range to hit something else with your bonus action.

4. Magic Kensei Weapons: At level 6 this is borderline unneeded, level 6 is about the time you will have a magic weapon anyway. Again, good chance you are only making one attack with it a turn anyway.

5. Deft Strike: 1 Ki for a very weak smite, or you could you know, spend that 1 ki and make a whole extra attack. Also it has to be with the kensei weapon, so can't use it unarmed. Again, might just be making only one kensei weapon attack anyway.

6. Sharpen the Blade: You can spend up to 3 Ki points to enhance your weapon up to a +3. Great, this is an amazing ability... until you notice you get it at level 11, and it only works on a weapon that is not a +1/2/3 in the first place.

So that means that it will work on:

Dancing Sword - a VERY RARE sword that gains no bonus to hit, damage, or really anything other than being a weapon version of the Spiritual weapon spell,
The Flame Tongue - an actual good choice assuming you randomly find one that is not a the great sword version. This is the best choice. Only rare and adds 2d6 fire.
Frost Brand - VERY RARE and just adds 1d6 cold damage and gives fire resistance
Javelin of Lightning - uncommon, but only one use, and now you have thrown your + magic weapon at someone and have to go get it to make it useful again.
Mace of Disruption - Rare and not really worth using unless you are in a very fiend/undead centered game.
Mace of Terror - RARE and a pretty horrible weapon in the first place.
Oathbow - Best choice if you want a bow, which let's face it, everyone will take a longbow as a choice.
Sword of Life Stealing - Not a bad choice at all, especially if you can get advantage easily, even better with elven accuracy too. A very solid choice
Sword of Sharpness - A much more expensive and slightly more damaging Sword of Life Stealing, I will take the 10THP though over the sharpness abilities
Weapon of Wounding - You might could build around using this, but it is wonky with the odd way the saves work. Need many attack to make it worth it, but might just be making one.
Trident of Fish Command - Yeah, nobody is going to use this.
Vicious Weapon - Same rarity as the Sword of Life Stealing but much worse. 7 damage or 10 damage and gain 10 THP...

So of ALL the weapons in the game you can use it on 12, only like 3 of which anyone would go out of their way to use. Or you could just carry a +2 weapon of whatever you normally use and not spend Ki every fight on a crap ability.

7. Unerring accuracy - This ability actually is great, this makes total sense.

1. more options are still nice. For instance what if you come across an oathbow?
2. You acknowledge that +2 AC is really needed, and somehow still rate this as poor? You're only missing out on 1 or 2 damage for AC for the rest of your turn... at low levels this is incredible!
3. Kensei shot isn't horrible or terrible. Just ok. Being able to DPR at range (against a flying opponent, for example) does overcome a huge weakness of the class.
4. Eh, it's a ribbon.
5. Or... you could do both! 2*Kensei shot + sharshooter + deft strike makes for a pretty cool turn!
6. You just listed like half of the applicable weapons in the DMG! sharpen the blade is great!
7. Yes, it is!

More to the point, what do you think other monks are getting that makes them so much better than a kensei? They don't have the DPR of a drunken master or the control ability of the open palm monk, but they have better DPR than everyone other than the drunken master. (4e monk can out-dpr them... for a few rounds.) They have the best AC, and can actually stick around on the front lines for that reason. They can benefit from the same pool of magic items as everyone else, meaning they'll have much better gear than other monks.

Like, seriously, a kensei monk's attack action at 11th is:
[2d6(flametongue)+1d10(longsword in two hands)+5(DEX)+3(sharpen the blade)*2+[1d8(unarmed strike)+5]*2=60
...which they can upgrade to 69 if they feel like it,
...and this isn't even factoring in that their to-hit chance will be really good, since most won't have a +3 weapon.
...and they're still a monk! They can still run super fast, have awesome saves, and stun people.

Kensei is great.

[Dudewithknives]

It means that monks have more weapons that they can use Dex and in crease the damage die for. It allows for weapons that are typically passed over to actually be used and be useful. Whip, anyone?

You don't have to give up one of your attacks. That is just not how the ability works.


Oh, getting a bonus to hit stuff with weapons that normally don't is a bad option simply because you get it at higher levels? Bladelocks get it for 1 weapon(at a time) that takes an action to summon, gets only a +1, as an invocation. But you can get it at level 3, so it must be that much better, right?/s

A second note on this: any kensei weapon can receive this bonus.

Bolded:

Yes, that is exactly how the ability works.

If on your ATTACK action you make an unarmed strike while wielding your Kensei Weapon, you gain +2 AC.
Key word is ATTACK action.
The bonus attack from Martial arts, or flurry of blows is a bonus action, it is not your attack action. JC has specifically said multiple times that a bonus action and an attack action are completely different things.

Ex.

If you are level 3 when you get it you can do:

A. Attack action with your kensei weapon and bonus action unarmed strike from martial arts
B. Attack action with your kensei weapon and spend 1 ki to use Flurry of Blows to make 2 unarmed strike attacks as a bonus action.
C. Attack action to make an unarmed strike, gain 2 AC from Agile Parry, then you can make 1 bonus action unarmed attack with MA, or spend 1 Ki to make 2

The bonus action unarmed strike from martial arts and flurry of blows does not activate Defensive Parry.

[Rogerdodger557]

Bolded:

Yes, that is exactly how the ability works.

If on your ATTACK action you make an unarmed strike while wielding your Kensei Weapon, you gain +2 AC.
Key word is ATTACK action.
The bonus attack from Martial arts, or flurry of blows is a bonus action, it is not your attack action. JC has specifically said multiple times that a bonus action and an attack action are completely different things.

Ex.

If you are level 3 when you get it you can do:

A. Attack action with your kensei weapon and bonus action unarmed strike from martial arts
B. Attack action with your kensei weapon and spend 1 ki to use Flurry of Blows to make 2 unarmed strike attacks as a bonus action.
C. Attack action to make an unarmed strike, gain 2 AC from Agile Parry, then you can make 1 bonus action unarmed attack with MA, or spend 1 Ki to make 2

The bonus action unarmed strike from martial arts and flurry of blows does not activate Defensive Parry.

Thank you for reiterating my point, but allow me to clarify. You don't give up your attack. You give up an attack with your kensei weapon. And I notice how you only show the level 3 options. Not inclined to show level 5, when monks get extra attack and can make a weapon attack, unarmed, and bonus action unarmed strike, while getting the benefits of Agile Parry

[Dudewithknives]

Thank you for reiterating my point, but allow me to clarify. You don't give up your attack. You give up an attack with your kensei weapon. And I notice how you only show the level 3 options. Not inclined to show level 5, when monks get extra attack and can make a weapon attack, unarmed, and bonus action unarmed strike, while getting the benefits of Agile Parry

the level 3 was just an example of when you get the ability.

I know it is just giving up a kensei weapon attack, but the point is that the entire subclass is about getting to use a weapon as a monk weapon, but the best ability they have in my opinion, you have to attack with that weapon less, to get the bonus from.

If a kensei could pick unarmed strike as their kensei weapon I would be all good with it, I would just be an unarmed kensei, and the idea of using sharpen the blade on unarmed strike is amazing considering there is really no other way to get +1/2/3 unarmed strikes.

[Twigwit]

More to the point, what do you think other monks are getting that makes them so much better than a kensei?

Was going to be my point.

[DivisibleByZero]

Thank you for reiterating my point, but allow me to clarify. You don't give up your attack. You give up an attack with your kensei weapon. And I notice how you only show the level 3 options. Not inclined to show level 5, when monks get extra attack and can make a weapon attack, unarmed, and bonus action unarmed strike, while getting the benefits of Agile Parry

You're wasting your breath. Many people have had this discussion with him many times.
His point of contention is with the fact that the subclass is all about using different weapons, but there are two levels worth of time where the thing he wants the most means he can't use his different weapon (edit: which he just verified while I was typing this). This is a sore spot for him, even though scaling damage dice with monk weapons often means the difference will either be nil, or will be 1 or 2 points on average (for that single attack).

He calls it a trap because he doesn't like it, not because it's a trap.

[strangebloke]

Thank you for reiterating my point, but allow me to clarify. You don't give up your attack. You give up an attack with your kensei weapon. And I notice how you only show the level 3 options. Not inclined to show level 5, when monks get extra attack and can make a weapon attack, unarmed, and bonus action unarmed strike, while getting the benefits of Agile Parry

It's actually a really neat ability.

At low levels you need to sacrifice 2 damage (1d6 vs. 1d10) for 2AC. An awesome trade, because monks desperately need AC at this level, and because AC is really important at low levels. Honestly I'd use this every time two or more people were next to me.
At high levels you sacrifice 5-12 damage (depending on your weapon's enchantments) for 2AC. The AC is less important at a high level, but the damage is a much smaller portion of your total damage, too.

So it lessens in power but the trade stays worth it.

[Crgaston]

Ok, so I had this interesting idea, but want to run it by the forum to check my rules because it gets a little wonky.


Build is for level 8

...stuff...

Just an idea I had for an archer to have melee backup, bow clubbing on the way.


I didn't read thoroughly through all the bickering, but the way to do this (mechanically, not thematically), is with either the Crossbow Expert feat or finding a way to get both Archery and Close Quarters Shooter (either Champion 10 or a 2 level Ranger dip). The "no penalty in melee" clause of CBE works for any ranged attack. You don't have to boost strength either. Plus it's either 1 or 2 fewer feats to worry about.

SO...

At L8 with with point buy, Bracers of Archery and a BM6/R2 Wood Elf, you can have a SS, Elven Accuracy, and 4(Dex)+3(Prof)+2(Archery) +1(CQS) so +10(+5) to hit and +6(+16) to damage from in melee out to 600'. With a couple of Ranger spells and triple advantage at times, too.

[Beelzebubba]

#1 is an interesting character thing, I'd allow it

#2, you're pushing it

#3 haha no way

#4 get away from my table, you shameless cheeseball

[SkylarkR6]

Bow as improvised weapon? Hell yeah!

It's heavy so gwm? Hell yeah!

It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No archery.

It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No Sharpshooter.

This is the kind of rules lawyering that makes me leave tables with a headache. This doesn't match RAW or RAI in my opinion but feel free to tweet Crawford. If he replies I hope you post here. I'd love to see an "official" ruling.

[BobZan]

You want to use GWM + SS + Archery with an Improvised Melee Weapon attack?? I would laugh at you on my table.

It's fine for exercise purposes only, IMO. For actual play it's just sad to come with such character since it's an obvious non-RAI interaction.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bow as improvised weapon? Hell yeah!

It's heavy so gwm? Hell yeah!

It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No archery.

It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No Sharpshooter.

This is the kind of rules lawyering that makes me leave tables with a headache. This doesn't match RAW or RAI in my opinion but feel free to tweet Crawford. If he replies I hope you post here. I'd love to see an "official" ruling.

A long bow isn't "heavy."
It weights two pounds.
It has the Heavy property because it's so large that small races can't use it effectively.

Great Weapon Master
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum power your strikes.
So you're using the momentum from those *whole* two pounds to power your strikes?
I don't think so.

So your list should look like:
Bow as improvised weapon? Hell yeah!
It's heavy so gwm? It isn't a melee weapon with the heavy property, it's a ranged weapon that has the heavy property because of its size which is being used as an improvised weapon. And.... Umm.... it weighs two pounds. No GWM.
It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No archery.
It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No Sharpshooter.

But go on ahead and use it as an improvised weapon.

[DarkKnightJin]

Instead of breaking your Bow on someone's head, you could save a feat and get Crossbow Expert.
Or sacrifice the +2 from Archery for the (UA only) Close Quarters Shooter fighting style.
No Disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks in melee, and you ignore all but Full cover vs targets within 30ft of you. Can't check the specifics right now, but it might give a +1 to either attack rolls or AC, too.
But I might be confusing that last bit with Mariner.

[SkylarkR6]

A long bow isn't "heavy."
It weights two pounds.
It has the Heavy property because it's so large that small races can't use it effectively.

Great Weapon Master
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum power your strikes.
So you're using the momentum from those *whole* two pounds to power your strikes?
I don't think so.

So your list should look like:
Bow as improvised weapon? Hell yeah!
It's heavy so gwm? It isn't a melee weapon with the heavy property, it's a ranged weapon that has the heavy property because of its size which is being used as an improvised weapon. And.... Umm.... it weighs two pounds. No GWM.
It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No archery.
It's no longer a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon for this attack. No Sharpshooter.

But go on ahead and use it as an improvised weapon.

You make an excellent point, sir. I neglected to check the actual weight of the bow. Heavy seems to begin at 6 pounds other then that.

[Sigreid]

I think you'd be better off taking crossbow expert instead of GWM and just keep shooting when they close in.

[DivisibleByZero]

You make an excellent point, sir. I neglected to check the actual weight of the bow. Heavy seems to begin at 6 pounds other then that.

Exactly.
It isn't "heavy" because of its weight. It's Heavy because it is so big that halflings/gnomes/etc can't use it effectively. It has the Heavy property because of its size, not because of its weight.
But GMW specifically calls out that you're using the weapon's weight for momentum.

It weighs as much as a short sword.... which is Finesse and Light.
Or look at a quarterstaff. Twice the weight, and it has specific rules which grant extra damage when used with two hands. It is not Heavy.

[pdegan2814]

Ok, so I had this interesting idea, but want to run it by the forum to check my rules because it gets a little wonky.


Build is for level 8

Class: Fighter: Battlemaster
Race: Does not matter really but let's go with Wood Elf.
Rolled stats are in and adjusted for
House rule is that everyone gets a bonus feat at level 1.

Stats:

Str: 20
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Fighting Style: Archery - +2 to attack rolls with ranged weapons.

FEATS:

Tavern Brawler: Proficiency with improvised is the main point, other parts are a bonus, took +1 Con
SharpShooter: When you make an attack with a ranged weapon -5/+10, ignore cover, no ranged penalty
Great Weapon Master: When you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon -5/+10, crit with melee weapon gets bonus attack.


Magic Items:

+1 Magical Longbow
Bracers of Archery
whatever else I can find

So here is the plan:

Normal archery greatness with Longbow + Sharpshooter + Archery + Bracers of Archery

Here is the trick though, if they get into melee range with me, I just hit them with the bow.

1. Thanks to Tavern Brawler I am proficient with a longbow as a melee weapon because it will be improvised, it will only do 1d4 but that is fine. +1 because of magic weapon too.

2. It is a two handed heavy weapon, so if I wanted I could use GWM to take -5/+10, it only specifies a "Melee attack with a heavy weapon" not melee weapon, only melee attack

3. Archery fighting style gives +2 to hit with ranged weapons, however it does not say it has to be a ranged attack to do it. So I can use the bow to club someone with and get +2 to hit.

4. Sharpshooter also only specifies attack with ranged weapon, so I can, if i really wanted, take -5/+10 from it as well.

Against lower AC enemies that get into melee, Battlemaster to trip them for advantage, then if needed -5/+10 or even -10/+20 to hit, but with advantage and precision attack as backup, and +2 because of archery.

Just an idea I had for an archer to have melee backup, bow clubbing on the way.

First off, those are some sick stats for Level 1.

1) Sure, you can whack people over the head with your longbow I guess. As DM I'd probably rule that the longbow would only survive so many of those attacks before breaking.
2) Abilities like that are meant to apply only when you're using the weapon in its intended way. So the GWM wouldn't apply, since for your purposes it's an "improvised weapon", not a "heavy, two-handed" weapon.
3) Same as above, the +2 to hit would only apply when actually firing an arrow as the bow is intended to be used.
4) Again, it wouldn't apply.

No way I would let anyone get away with this at my table.

[jollydm]

This is pure stupid shenanigans. I don't care what possible manipulation of any potentially vaguely worded part of the PHB you may use, I'm going to look at this from a realistic point of view: no person is going to run around in a battle, whether it be with a dragon, mind flayer or just a bunch of goblins, and decide it's a better idea to thwack people over the head with their bow instead of shooting arrows with it. You're mad.

[greenstone]

1. Thanks to Tavern Brawler I am proficient with a longbow as a melee weapon because it will be improvised, it will only do 1d4 but that is fine. +1 because of magic weapon too.

You may or may not get the +1 when used as an improvised weapon. Expect table variation.


2. It is a two handed heavy weapon, so if I wanted I could use GWM to take -5/+10, it only specifies a "Melee attack with a heavy weapon" not melee weapon, only melee attack

My first thought was "no" but when I read more carefully, you have actually got it right. it is a heavy weapon (I don't thing using it as an improvised weapon changes this) that you are proficient with (thanks to Tavern Brawler).


3. Archery fighting style gives +2 to hit with ranged weapons, however it does not say it has to be a ranged attack to do it. So I can use the bow to club someone with and get +2 to hit.

4. Sharpshooter also only specifies attack with ranged weapon, so I can, if i really wanted, take -5/+10 from it as well.


I don't think either of these work. If you are holding the bow and hitting someone with it then it is an improvised weapon, not a ranged weapon. At best, I'd let you treat it as a club or staff, when it would be a melee weapon.

[Dudewithknives]

You may or may not get the +1 when used as an improvised weapon. Expect table variation.



My first thought was "no" but when I read more carefully, you have actually got it right. it is a heavy weapon (I don't thing using it as an improvised weapon changes this) that you are proficient with (thanks to Tavern Brawler).



I don't think either of these work. If you are holding the bow and hitting someone with it then it is an improvised weapon, not a ranged weapon. At best, I'd let you treat it as a club or staff, when it would be a melee weapon.

I was a little iffy on the last 2.

The line in the PHB that said that if you throw a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property or use a ranged weapon to make a melee attack does 1d4 damage is what gave me the idea.

I saw it like:

If I decide to throw a longsword, it is a melee weapon because it is a longsword but it is also an improvised thrown weapon when thrown.

Or

A long bow is a ranged weapon, but if used in for a melee attack it also becomes an improvised melee weapon.

Nowhere does it say a weapon loses any properties do a longsword is still a melee, versatile weapon what is now also an improvised thrown one.

A longbow would be a ranged, heavy, two handed weapon but also an improvised melee weapon.

[Beelzebubba]

I was a little iffy on the last 2.

Understatement of the year.

:smallsigh:

[AHF]

You may or may not get the +1 when used as an improvised weapon. Expect table variation.



My first thought was "no" but when I read more carefully, you have actually got it right. it is a heavy weapon (I don't thing using it as an improvised weapon changes this) that you are proficient with (thanks to Tavern Brawler).



I don't think either of these work. If you are holding the bow and hitting someone with it then it is an improvised weapon, not a ranged weapon. At best, I'd let you treat it as a club or staff, when it would be a melee weapon.

That is how I read it originally but based on other posts I've change my mind. Your thought process was the same as mine but leads to where the GWM gets messy. We were treating the longbow used to hit people as akin to a staff or club neither of which are heavy weapons.

In fact, the club weights the same as the bow and is classified as "light." The quarterstaff is twice as heavy and is not a "heavy" melee weapon. It was pointed out that it is almost surely listed as a "heavy" ranged weapon because of its length making it inappropriate for halflings, etc. to use.

Why would a bow be "heavy", a quarterstaff that weights twice as much not be "heavy" and a club that weighs the exact same be "light" when they are all used in the exact same way? I've flipped to the view that as a DM I would not grant "heavy" status for purposes of GWM given the treatment of similar and heavier weapons that are the direct points of comparison for a bow used as an improvised melee weapon.

[EdenIndustries]

Jeremy Crawford seems to have explained the RAI here:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F

Unfortunately, using the bow in such a fashion makes it lose all normal properties.

[Crgaston]

Jeremy Crawford seems to have explained the RAI here:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F

Unfortunately, using the bow in such a fashion makes it lose all normal properties.

Could you TL;DR for those of us who do not Twit?

[DivisibleByZero]

Jeremy Crawford seems to have explained the RAI here:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F

Unfortunately, using the bow in such a fashion makes it lose all normal properties.

First, I don't consider it unfortunate. :smallsmile:

Secondly, for anyone interested who doesn't want to follow the link:

@Rystefn Can you use a longbow in melee to get GWM and Sharpshooter in a single attack for +20 damage?
@JeremyECrawford If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.

Sounds amazingly similar to something said right off the bat:

An improvised weapon is not a weapon, and has no weapon properties.... because it is not a weapon (edit: unless the DM rules otherwise).
Using a bow as an improvised melee weapon removes the Heavy and Two-Handed properties. You're basically just using it as a club (without the Light property), which is why it deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage.