bladesinger options

[Whit]

Looking for bladesinger build. Anyone created one ? Is a 2 lvl dip in fighter fir action surge or 2lvl dip rogue for sneak attack and cunning action

[Zanthy1]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e

This is what you're looking for. Excellent for all things Wizard. The 2 level dip for action surge seems really cool (and if you're gonna do it, make sure you take fighter first so you can wear heavy armor if desired ad get Con saves). The trade off is getting your higher level spells at later levels and fewer spell slots. It can go either way, personally I would not dip just because I find multiclassing cool and fun, but getting your class features 2 levels behind everyone else kind of sucks.

[dejarnjc]

Honestly, any of the old bladesinger guides are outdated and less relevant w/ Xanathar's out. Shadowblade and Tenser's change a lot.


Personally, I don't think any option is as good as just going pure bladesinger.

Rogue is OK if you want to play a hard to hit, hit and run style... but then why not just play an arcane trickster w/ a 2 level bladesinger dip?

Fighter is OK if you want action surge and dueling. BUUUUT it delays your spell casting progression and with shadowblade, you more than make up for not having dueling. Action surge is nice but not worth a 2 level dip IMO.

[BobZan]

If you want to play the second line melee, 2 fighter levels won't hurt. I'd go Fighter 1/BS 6/Fighter 2/BS rest.

In general, if you go pure BS you're good. It's a very solid archetype. The Nerdy Rage will help even if you're not going forward.

[Whit]

Bladesinger loses their ability with heavy armor so not an issue to go first per se

1. They both use green flame blade so not added as it cancels each other out.
2. At lvl 6 2 attack’s
3. And at lvl 14 they both get add int to damage so cancel that out.
4. Let’s say both have 18 dex and 18 int

5. With fighter dip either +1 ac or +2 damage dueling and action surge another action round and bonus action. Per short rest

6. Let’s say lvl 6 bladesinger 2 attack’s

Bladesinging fighter dip.
Weapon rapier finesse1d8(4)+dex (4)+Dueling +2= 10 per attack = (20) total

Or rogue
1d8(4)+dex(4)+1d6(3) = 11 sneak attack one per round + (8) second attack = (19) total

Fighter. The big difference is action surge once per short rest
fighter can attack once again for 10 damage x2 attack’s (20) more and bonus action if possible like Misty step or something else to get out.
Theatrical more mage like attack x2 misty step to another location action surge attack x2 misty step out or cast a spell from range instead of melee
or cunning action rogue has bonus action each round to dash, disengage, hide. So attack twice then bonus action disengage move no opportunity attack’s.
Theatrical more like acrobat dodger
Attack x2 then move away each turn

[Whit]

@dec. it’s fine to reverse the role but you lose 2 attack’s and the higher spells stopping at lvl 3 compared to having 9th lvl.

A lvl 6 trickster hit 1d8(4)+dex(4)+3d6(10) total = 18

I’ll check up shadowblade

[Citan]

Hi!
Honestly pure Bladesinger is very good.

Dipping a starting level in Fighter *may* be worth it if you want not only Constitution proficiency but also ability to wear medium armor and shield (when you can't Bladesong for whatever reason) and use Defense style to push AC with light armor to decent levels so you don't use one slot on Mage Armor.

It is also worth if you plan on taking more levels later for Action Surge and possibly Battlemaster AFTER you went at least Wizard 8 (Greater Invisibility is too good a buff to pass, and you want ASI too).

For single level dip, otherwise, I'd really recommend...
1. Sorcerer: with 14 DEX you start with 15 AC if Draconic before Bladesong, which is very fair, or "save a roll" once/short rest if Divine, and you also get Constitution proficiency, as well as...
- Shield & any other utility (or Cure Wounds/Bless + any Cleric spell you fancy if Divine).
- 4 more cantrips (Booming Blade, Shape Water / Mold Earth / Control Flames, Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion, you have much choice).
Yeah, it costs you some MADness though. Up to you to see whether trade-off balance fits you.

2. Life Cleric: healing, buff, utility, heavy armor, and you can grab it whenever you want, isn't life beautiful? :)

For 2 level dips, Rogue and Fighter are both solid, as long as you make Wizard 7-8 a priority.
For 3-level dips, seriously everything barring Barbarian and Monk is on the table. ;)

[Whit]

Agree. I have only one character I multi classed before and that was the ranger 5/assassin 7 at the end of campaign.

normally I never dip and since bladesinger gets 2 attack’s at 6th. It really doesn’t need it. However, to add some extra flair imo the fighter dip to action surge can give you the

“ I quickly evoke green flames to my blade and attack the Ettin with the flames leaping to the triceratops he’s riding. I then use a bonus action to utter a mystic word and misty step behind them. With an action surge and at a greater distance I evok lighting bolts from my hand or perhaps just attack again with 2 attack’s or gfb and bonus action then misty step out.

Or rogue dip. “I Run up next to the fighter, utter a mystic word allowing green flames to dance on my blade. I sneak attack the Ettin with green flames leaping to the triceratops. I then bonus action Disengage rolling under the triceratops
And move away. Next turn I move up and roll under the triceratops, I strike twice with my blade then speak a quick word and bonus action misty step away.

[MxKit]

A level or two of Fighter for Bladesinger is really nice, but as people have said, shadow blade has made that far less necessary (though I think Tenser's transformation is more so-so). Still, shadow blade is only a 2nd-level spell, so you'll be getting it at Wizard lv3 anyway (even though it gets better as it's upcast), and since it requires concentration you'll want to have good Con saves.

Starting with one level of Fighter, then going six levels into Wizard for shadow blade, 3rd level spells, and Extra Attack, then one more level of Fighter, then the rest in Wizard wouldn't be a bad progression for you.

Conversely, as Citan said, starting with one level of Sorcerer and then going all the rest of the way into Wizard wouldn't be bad either, if you can handle a little MADness.

Alternately, if your DM allows non-elves to be Bladesingers, you an always just start as a Variant Human with your starting feat being Resilient (Con), and go straight Bladesinger.

Or, finally, you can go straight Bladesinger and just use your first ASI/feat to snag Resilient (Con) instead of bumping any of your stats... But since you'll likely want high Int and Dex and good Con, you might not want to delay stat progression like that.

[Citan]

Very true what MxKit said about having the DM waive racial requirements being by far the easiest way. ^^

A note about Shadow Blade. While its benefits are certain for whatever class has both Extra Attack (at least) and slots, I feel it's somewhat a "waste" for a Bladesinger, at least until high levels.

Being quotes obviously because dealing pure psychic damage is gravvy, and 2d8 is pretty good too. When a Wizard gets it at level 3, it's very tasty indeed, since you can just stack it on op of Booming Blade for a nice 3d8 per action...
BUT...

At level 5 you get Haste at the time of cantrip upgrade: a plain weapon attack deals 1d8+4. BB adds 1d8 on hit to that (I put aside the rider).
So now it's comparing between buffed Shadow BB (compared to a plain Attack you gain 2d8) and Hasted BB ("extra move + extra AC + 1d8+4 thanks to extra Attack): basically you get the same amount of damage on average, but with Haste you have a much better benefit overall.
Unless you upcast Shadow Blade, at which time there is a slight, but definitive, advantage to Shadow Blade since it now deals 3d8.

At level 6 Shadow Blade becomes relevant again: now you can make Shadow Extra Attack instead of Shadow Booming Blade, so the net income is a tad better than Hasted BB: you lose BB (1d8) but gain another 1d8+4+2d8 (or 3d8): when you don't need other benefits of Haste it's a net and significative gain damage-wise.

At level 7 you get Greater Invisibility: although costly, this trumps both Haste and Shadow Blade whenever you fight enemies with ~AC 16+: let's never underestimate the sadness of a full miss, which being invisible (= advantage on your attacks) helps prevent. Let's also never underestimate the fear of impromptu heavy hit/critical, which being invisible (= disadvantage on attacks against you) also helps prevent.

I'm too tired (or too lazy) to pursue the tentative in compared benefit of each spell, but my gut says keeping Greater Invisibility paired with Booming Blade is probably the best bet "when you don't know anything else about this new fight" at least until level 13 because even if you can yet gain another die on damage by upcasting as 5th level, it won't help on the side of "chance to hit" and "chance not to be hit" (well, besides the case this extra damage allowed you to kill the enemy before he had a chance to attack you, which is pretty much the best evasion one could hope for XD). After which, being the upcast and lvl 14 features, it's probably the Shadow Extra Attack that wins the bigger damage fight, because when factoring the chance to miss, you just deal "so much damage" that it should compensate usually.

It's even more problematic to consider the use of Shadow Blade when you weight in...
- The fact it uses a bonus action, which you already need first thing in biggest fights to enable Bladesong.
- The fact that Wizards have oh so great encounter-changing spells, so a wise one would probably always keep his biggest slots for wide spells and not self-buff spells unless that is really his schtick and party is aware of it.

To note though, on the plus side, we can sum up by saying that a Bladesinger has basically a great buff to use whatever spell slot he'd like to consume to that effect, which is definitely something good. XD

IMO, the Shadow Blade is perfect for people that either...
- Have many attacks available and casting slots (read: Eldricht Knight+caster)
- Or have very few other spell options and other uses for bonus action in other turns (read: Arcane Trickster + caster).
Paladin with Shield Master could put it to good use too. ;)

The fact that it scales pretty well makes it a perfect spell for multiclass gishes in fact, that often end with much higher slots than levels for spells. ^^

Well, that makes the EK 11 / DSS X even more dreadful than ever before... XD

[Deathtongue]

I wrote a Bladesinger guide a few months back. The long and short of it is: if you're a Bladesinger and you're not doing something unusual like picking up Sorcerer for Subtle and Careful Spell, don't multiclass.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6vBhvie18hFDmnom5lMv3zTj1nYUkvC8UxH0ngZWXQ/edit#heading=h.h9yvnedf72s2

Should You Multiclass?
Because multiclassing is very popular, this guide does (intend to have eventually) have an extensive section on multiclassing. However, before you do, PLEASE READ THIS SECTION EVEN IF YOUR POT OF GOLD IS WATCHING THAT DAMAGE-PER-ROUND GO UP!

A lot of people look at the Bladesinger, note they don't have a passive melee damage adder like Sneak Attack or the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, note that they can't use Great Weapon Fighting, then panic and start looking for ways to slap on multiclassing to increase their melee efficacy. The popular opinion (and fix) is to splash in a level of two of Fighter or even Paladin or Hexblade.

I think this is wrongheaded. If your intent is to use your Bladesinger to melee, splashing in a level is generally not worth it until the very end of the game, and only in specific circumstances. If you look at your Bladesinger as a platform for highly defensive damage from a variety of sources -- rather than the orthodox view of only viewing melee DPR as important – you'll find multiclassing is never worth it.

Level 6: You miss out on Fireball, Haste, and/or Extra Attack. If you're feeling cheesy, you also miss out on Animate Dead for extra skeleton minions.

Level 8: But let's say you're a Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Polymorph and Greater Invis. One of them is a turbo-charged swiss army knife that you will always find a use for, the other one makes you a melee god.

Level 10: Let's say you're a Bladesinger 8 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Animate Objects. With Arcane Recovery, you could've cast this three times per day. This is a titanic boost to your DPR. You also miss out on Song of Defense. You have two good tricks of 'don't die instantly when monsters look at you funny' (Absorb Elements, Shield) but this completes the trinity. There are a lot of big-time damage makers you have no answer to and sometimes a critical hit sneaks through. If you're abusing Planar Binding, you miss out on extra Conjure Elementals.

Level 12: You miss out on Contingency. You can think of it as an Action Surge that only works with buffs and/or an Action Surge that works even better with defensive ploys. SEE MY SECTION ON CONTINGENCY FOR MORE DETAILS. If you managed to get that spell, you also miss out on Tenser’s Transformation. I could live without Tenser’s, but I have a hard time imagining someone who loved them some melee showboating doing so.
.
Level 14: You miss out on SIMULACRUM. Best feature anyone gets in the game, with the possible exception of Wish. It's so good that I recommend snagging Shape Water just so you'll have a source of ice for it. You also miss out on Song of Victory, which is one of the biggest passive DPR adders per game. If you're using TWFing + Haste, this is an extra 16-20 damage per round. That smite or fighting style ain't looking so hot now.

Level 16: Actually, you don't miss out on much here. I haven't played at this level of play, but I would imagine really regretting that I didn't have Maze. But this is probably the level in which I'd feel most comfortable being behind two levels. You do have enough spell slots to cast Tenser’s Transformation to last you an entire workday if that’s the only thing you care about.

Level 18: Now it’s back to regrets again. You miss out on Spell Mastery. This is infinite shield and misty step/mirror image all day long. This is better than any class feature any martial gives you with the possible exception of Aura of Protection. You also miss out on Foresight and Wish and Shapechange and True Polymorph. Any one of those four spells is better than any class feature any martial gives you, period.

Level 20: You might think that you're in the clear, but a lot of guides miss out on the fact that you gain an extra level 6 and level 7 spell slot. Even if you're not interested in another Mass Suggestion or Whirlwind, you could always just cast Contingency or Tenser’s Transformation twice and have those spells for every challenging workday encounter instead of just one. Signature Spell is okay, but it's still good.

Long story short: the Bladesinger doesn't become lackluster at melee combat in non-extended workdays because they're bad at melee combat. If you consider your spell arsenal as an aspect of melee combat, they completely explode in effectiveness at around level 11.

The 'problem' is that their spellcasting arsenal becomes BETTER than melee combat. Greater Invis will turn you into a melee god against anything that can't see you, but Fly upcast to level 4 or turning the out-of-resources rogue into a Giant Ape will save your party's life more often. Animate Objects is good and all for your DPR, but it won't trivialize encounters like Wall of Force. You could use Contingency to fast-cast Haste or Greater Invis for a second encounter in the day. Or you could use it to cast Mass Suggestion.

[dejarnjc]

It's even more problematic to consider the use of Shadow Blade when you weight in...
- The fact it uses a bonus action, which you already need first thing in biggest fights to enable Bladesong.
- The fact that Wizards have oh so great encounter-changing spells, so a wise one would probably always keep his biggest slots for wide spells and not self-buff spells unless that is really his schtick and party is aware of it.


To be fair, this problem kind of handles itself. Round 1: Bladesong and cast encounter-changing spell. Round 2: Cast bladesong and commence F'ing **** up.


I think Greater Invis is the bees knees but sometimes you just need to pump out damage fast and shadowblade let's ya do that. Shadowblade also makes you the best Haste target if someone else in your group has the spell.

[Whit]

I agree about getting stuff late, that’s why I mostly never multi, now with all that said regarding losing, let’s also now look at what you gain with multi

1. Cleric Tempest channel divinity for MAX lighting thunder damage is GREAT 1/ short rest
Cleric War can give you a weapon bonus action attack that gives you 3 attacks each round up to your wisdom bonus then long rest. Wisdom not really a strong suit and an extra stat.

2. Fighter. Fighting style, Second wind little healing and Action Surge per short rest, get a full extra round of doing something spells, melee attack etc. personally favorite as you can decide how to use it. Melee or spells

3. Paladin gives you lay on hands for small heal or cure disease, divine sense, fighting style,
2 lvl 1 spells for divine smite extra 2d8 per spell slot used or can cast 2 lvl 1 paladin spells.

4. Rogue gets sneak attack but it’s only 1d6 and they get cunning action the big one that can let you attack then runaway without opportunity attacks

4. Warlock invocation get see in darkness and Bladesinger fight in darkness

So a few of these are pretty impressive for a 2 lvl dip

Cleric best is max lighting damage for lighting bolt. 1 per short
Fighter an extra full action phase 1 per short rest and fighting style
Paladin fighting style cure disease sense fiends, add some melee damage 2 per long rest
Rogue the artful dodger in combat
Warlock I see you but you don’t see me melee fighter

[Ellisthion]

I think straight Bladesinger is fun, because it's such a different playstyle. You get to solve your problems in the Wizard way, instead of how more conventional melee classes do it.

Need to disengage? Expeditious Retreat, Haste, Misty Step
Really need to avoid getting hit? Stack your buffs like Blink and Mirror Image.
Flying enemies? You have Fly, Misty Step, Dimension Door...
Really need damage? Walk up to them and shove a Lightning Bolt down their throat
Need utility? You're a Wizard, you are utility.

To me, it's not about whether it's more powerful, it's about abusing Wizard magic for an unconventional playstyle, and any multiclass will reduce that raw Wizard power.

Also it's funny trying to convince the party that you need 3 rounds to buff yourself before a bossfight.

[Specter]

Don't be a fool towear heavy armor. S. Leather + DEX + INT will get you places. With Shield, Absorb Elements and Mirror Image you will kickenough ass already.

As for what to take first, it's not very important: iif you do go Fighter, you'll still want Resilient (WIS) eventually.