Advice pls: Impending doom - a player in a dire situation - sad ending

[Bobur]

Hello everyone,

my grp went to an undead city to defeat a powerful elven witch.
They decided to go alone, without any allies or friends to help them, but at last they smartened up and made plans to soften up the enemy forces while camping outside.

Our Lv17 (neutral) wizard wanted to use his Magic jar spell for quite some time now so this was a good opportunity to let him use it.
Combined with a foggy area and his raven familiar, who carries the gem around while he takes control over random creatures, scouting around and doing some damage.

All went fine until he decided to search for the elven witch.
He took control of a guard in her tower and walked with a patrol to the top of the spire, where the witch and her wyverns are.

By now our wizzard terrorized the area for roughly 3-4 hours ingame time, returned to his camp once and then went for another round.
He also mentioned to some enemys that something is taking control over people and creatures - to spread fear I guess.
He was quite busy, taking over kyrie-witches, elves, some undead and wyverns.

But by now the witch knows that something is going on and has likely taken steps to stop this. She is a high Lv druid and has some cultists around her as well.
The cultist are likely to use detect magic at this point, while she has only 1 Lv9 spell, but its "foresight". The latter lets her know the best step to take for the next moments, so she has some meta knowledge. ^^
With this likely setup I am trying to think how to give the wizard a shot at escaping this.

If he just walks in, he will get detected and with her high Spellcraft checks she will easily find out what spell it is in a second and then throw a greater dispel magic at him to end it.
He is close enough to his jem, because of the raven, but his body is over a mile away and he would just die if this hits.
The only chances I see are that he either wins the initiative against the witch or that he somehow doesnt get dispelled.

I was hoping somebody here might have a thought about this little predicament. The grp doesnt have any revival spells available except for a reincarnation. ^^°

Thanks guys.

[Esquire]

Off the top of my head, possibly he could mystic aura himself as a stealth measure, and/or arrange for his body to be within the distance limit - shrink person plus a raven-size backpack or something, maybe. Foresight removes tactical surprise as an option when active, so sneak attack (the concept or the ability) is not going to work; strategic surprise may or may not work depending on how your DM plays vague warnings, etc.

My suggestion: don't try to get cute with magic jar scouting that close to a major spellcaster at all. Try to double-bluff her; figure out some way of telling whether she's cast foresight yet (raven-based spying for somatic components plus Spellcraft buffs, maybe?) and only attack after it would have expired. Then, immediate full-party alpha strike. You want her dodging arrows, explosions, and swords, all at once and ideally starting flat-footed, surrounded, and with the ground trying to eat her, the sky is filling with summoned allies, and the building she's standing on animates itself to attack her. That's how you fight a spellcaster.

[Anymage]

Reincarnation still works. It'll be a different body, but he can still continue playing.

You could have the witch be tactically suboptimal and cast a SoD or just a powerful blasty spell, so that the body drops without killing the actual character. Similarly, if you don't have a habit of rolling out in the open, her first dispel attempt could be unlucky, giving the player one chance to get out of dodge if he's smart. He'll be spotted, and he'll hopefully learn that other high level characters aren't stupid, but it won't be a practical instagib.

But honestly, it comes down to matching player style. If they're playing mid- to low op, have the enemies play similarly. If they're trying to play with all the bells and whistles a full caster has at their disposal, they should understand that it's a world where death is both cheap and cheaply reversible.

[Lapak]

It sounds like you’re the DM in this group, trying not to one-shot a PC?

Possibilities:
1) one-shot the PC. Magic Jar is very high on the power/risk trade off scale for a reason, and he’s coming back for another stab at this.

2) assume she wants to capture, not kill, because she wants more information. Rather than Dispelling him, assume she is doing some divination to ID the shape of the threat (since the PCs were overconfident enough to spread the news.) When the PC takes a host, she hits him with something incapacitating - so he can’t take the mental action to escape - and/or hits the familiar with something disabling (so he cannot easily flee) in order to interrogate him.

[Bobur]

Yes, I am the DM, sry I didnt mention that.

Maybe she just throws an untargeted dispel, which wouldnt dispel the magic jar since a mind blank spell is on top of that one. - Does a buff like mind blank work when in a host using Magic jar or does that stay on your original body? Since you only transfer your soul, I would guess so... which would make him vulnerable to mind control effects - which the witch also has available.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As far as i can see your player could stop at any time, switch back into the gem and let his raven fly him back to his body, right? And he knows what he's up against?

Unless my understanding is wrong my advice is to let him deal with the consequences of his actions.
Maybe throw in an "are you sure that's a good idea?" (which is traditional DM-speak for "you're about to do something dumb that'll get you killed.")

But if he goes out of his way to do something that stupid you really shouldn't coddle him.
It just cheapens any sense of challenge the game provides if players come to expect the DM to bail them out when they mess up.

[Deadline]

You mentioned that the Wizard has Mind Blank up. Arguably, this stops Detect Magic. Assuming you rule that it doesn't, Detect Magic still takes three rounds to gather necessary information. The first round only lets you know there are magic auras present, and I highly doubt said witch (or her cultists) don't have magic around her inner sanctum. So you could have the wizard see the cultists doing their Detect Magic routine. And if the witch has Foresight up when the wizard goes into the sanctum, I'm not entirely certain what it would do. Foresight is a Divination spell, and can't provide information about the wizard (because he has Mind Blank up). If the wizard is just there to scout and isn't about to cause impending harm, I'm not sure Foresight would trigger at all. If he goes in with the intent to attack, then yeah, Foresight should probably provide a warning. If an area dispel is the best defense, then that would be recommended. But I don't think Foresight could say "target a dispel on that guy", Mind Blank would block that, because that would mean a Divination spell is giving information about the wizard.

So there's lots of options in there for providing the wizard time to flee before he gets killed.

[Segev]

You might also ask him what he'd do in a similar situation: a necromancer is invading his home city and coming for him via magic jar. What does he do when he finds the wizard in the miller's daughter's body? This might get him thinking of the risks. Or you could just ask for a Spellcraft roll, and on a sufficient success, remind him that getting his spell dispelled this far from his body kills him.

[King of Nowhere]

if the wizard is level 17, then the dispel magic has less than 50% chance to work. I say, roll it. If the player dies, at level 17 he can easily find a high level cleric for resurrection. Even if you houseruled lack of resurrection in your world, reincarnation is still ok - iin fact, the wizard may even get a better body.
And it will help reinforce the idea that the witch is dangerous, helping with buuilding up tension

[Bobur]

You mentioned that the Wizard has Mind Blank up. Arguably, this stops Detect Magic. Assuming you rule that it doesn't, Detect Magic still takes three rounds to gather necessary information. The first round only lets you know there are magic auras present, and I highly doubt said witch (or her cultists) don't have magic around her inner sanctum. So you could have the wizard see the cultists doing their Detect Magic routine. And if the witch has Foresight up when the wizard goes into the sanctum, I'm not entirely certain what it would do. Foresight is a Divination spell, and can't provide information about the wizard (because he has Mind Blank up). If the wizard is just there to scout and isn't about to cause impending harm, I'm not sure Foresight would trigger at all. If he goes in with the intent to attack, then yeah, Foresight should probably provide a warning. If an area dispel is the best defense, then that would be recommended. But I don't think Foresight could say "target a dispel on that guy", Mind Blank would block that, because that would mean a Divination spell is giving information about the wizard.

So there's lots of options in there for providing the wizard time to flee before he gets killed.

Thanks, so far I read the mind blank spell a bit differently, but I think you are right about the divination protection - if magic jar carries such a spell over to the host....does it stick to your soul then? That would make it pretty hard to locate him in any way at all. Which is the entire purpose of the spell I guess.
Although if everybody has some sort of magic aura and he has nothing at all, that is somewhat suspicious too I guess. ^^ And a spellcraft check isnt voiled by mind blank, so she would at least notice that spell.
You need to see the effects of the spell to identify it .... you can see the host of the magic jar spell, would that count already? I would say you need some sort of idea at least that something is wrong and look closely at him, then she would know that spell too I guess.

Even if nobody can find the wizards host, they can find the raven, though so far he is hiding in the foggy weather - Nothing a powerful druid witch couldnt manage.
Those could be some good ideas for the foresight spell: -Close the door and dont let anybody in. XD Problem solved. Also, clear that fog outside. XD

Edit: Had to reread protection from evil/good - this would also work, although her saves are not the problem its a nice addition and blocks any attempt to take control of the witch herself.

[KaytoShields]

I have to clarify: while wording on Mind Blank is vague, it's most likely is not intended to block ALL divinations. That's the work of Nondetection spell.
RAI, Mind Blank blocks scrying-discern location-vision-etc., and what it means by information gathering is up to DM, of course; I'm from that side of fence that allows detects-true strike-see invisibility to work.

Detect Magic is not an absolute danger. It needs casting and 3 rounds of concentration to detect school. If you see caster concentrating on you, that's enough foretelling that something is wrong.

Foresight triggers only in immediate danger. If wizard tries to possess a witch, witch knows the general course of actions to defend herself. Again, it's not spelled, but I'd say she gets a standard action to react. If she's got Protection from Evil on her (wise if she knows about posessions!), Foresight may not trigger at all, as she is protected (and so, she may not understand that attack is being made)

Throwing area dispel is not what a smart caster would do. She has no incentive not to use targeted Dispel Magic. All you can do is to delay this moment and give the wizard chances to retreat.

Spellcraft on side-effects of a spell is viable, though with increased DC - yes, it's possible to get that you are seeing a possessed creature with good enough Spot and Spellcraft checks.

If all the signs are missed and wizard proceeds to attack the witch - let him bear the consequences.

[TheCount]

You mentioned cultists, right?
You could bump one into the hijacked body. They may be friends, family or lovers even! maybe one of them is owing a bet or something else ('just when will the neighboor give back my lawnmover?' type) or straight hate each other as well, even to the point to slander thier "nemesis" when- and however they can.

or just let him hear the guards complaining about the checkpoint with anti-magic zone on it that they need to go over.

....would that work on magic jar?

[Bobur]

You mentioned cultists, right?
You could bump one into the hijacked body. They may be friends, family or lovers even! maybe one of them is owing a bet or something else ('just when will the neighboor give back my lawnmover?' type) or straight hate each other as well, even to the point to slander thier "nemesis" when- and however they can.

or just let him hear the guards complaining about the checkpoint with anti-magic zone on it that they need to go over.

....would that work on magic jar?

Anti magic doesnt end a spell, it just surpresses the effect. For example if you are invisible and walk through it, you become visible and as soon as you are out you are invisible again.
So for this you would likely loose control of the host inside the field, but your sould would remain inside.

But I like the idea with the guard talking about it ahead of the entrance. That alone should be enough to return to the stone and not risk it. If he does... well thats his choice then.

[Calthropstu]

My players know better than to try a stunt like this. They're in full paranoid mode after dying/nearly dying in almost every single battle.

For the op, I advise killing said player. He was incredibly stupid and cocky. Advertising that he was magic jaring into bodies was beyond stupid.
These detect magic spells should already be up, and any time someone pings theyshould be stopped, nonchalantly, to pinpoint where the magic is and what it is doing.

As soon as strong magic is detected, the full might of the archwitch should be brought to bear... with completely inaudible commands and reports going between the detect magic wizards and the witch.

[Falontani]

The druid could dominate the wizard's raven into handing the gem over to the druid. That way she has complete control over the wizard. No need to kill a hapless pawn.

[Bobur]

The druid could dominate the wizard's raven into handing the gem over to the druid. That way she has complete control over the wizard. No need to kill a hapless pawn.

Since the raven is 150ft away and the fog is just clearing up, it might still be hard to connect one raven in the air with the spell - although the tower is 300ft high, so the witch might know that it has to be something flying or stuck to the wall if it is in the area at all.
Det. Magic has only a 60ft range and a spot check on a jem in a ravens claw?... I can give it a shot though. ^^

I go with the slight warning from the guard and a set up detection by hat time. If he still goes in he has to get lucky in the initiative or its likely over.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Sejoran]

Gotta agree with a couple people here. If most of the party is around lvl 17 then you really shouldnt be holding back, Intelligent enemies will act intelligent. Especially Arch-Witches/Spell-casters. Theyd have multiple wards up and possibly other spell-casters and permanent spells within the stronghold, even a few contingent spells.

Its the big leagues here, one wrong step could lead to death, players should be prepared. The villains wont be pulling punches just like how most players wont if its a life or death situation. Id say the Witch already knows whats up and her wards have probably found him(or at least his familiar), familiars could've found the wizards familiar and could be waiting for a signal to take care of it.

[Falontani]

Id say the Witch already knows whats up and her wards have probably found him(or at least his familiar), familiars could've found the wizards familiar and could be waiting for a signal to take care of it.

That is a good point, what is the druid's animal companion? A familiar will stand no chance against an equal level animal companion without their masters' intervention.

[Bobur]

That is a good point, what is the druid's animal companion? A familiar will stand no chance against an equal level animal companion without their masters' intervention.

She is a druid of an undead-deity, so she doesnt have a familiar. But a greater whyvern for a mount. ^^

There are Cultists, minions and some mid level druid/soldiers in the tower. As well as 2 Raven witches (Kyrie) They know about the magic jar by now, they just couldnt find him yet and they dont know about the raven either. They know how the spell works and set up detection to scan anybody who enter the tower - Nobody besides guards are allowed.

There is no base to find the caster with divination since they dont know anything about him + mind blank spell.
They know there must be a jar somewhere unless he is actually out of range, but again no idea where it is and the raven is still hidden in the fog, but will be visible soon - and if he stays they will connect the dots and either control him or shoot him down.

Even a guard spell wouldnt do much in this scenario I think- wiz spells are not available to the witch though.

Anyway- if the witch is still alive at dusk, she will begin a great right to cast a global spell. Now she will be way better prepared with all defensive spells set up + protecting her powerful guards and alike.
Prot from good, maybe a magic circle, life shell on the spot where she will cast, barkskin, freedom of movement and alike. The final temple for the event alrady has an unhallow/dispel cast on it, but the heroes could visit it before the evening and clear parts of it out. We will see.

[Bobur]

The evening is over and here is what happened:

The wizard began where we left of, as a part of a guard in the lower parts of the tower, making its way up to the top.
- At this point there was no proof that the which is up there, but it was expected.

He moved upwards and the guards started talking about bad ghosts, posessing people while the PC added to the fear. We reached the top, where the guards had a short talk about added security. Followed by a cultist who came down and began casting detect magic. He found the strange aura on the PC and after the player recognized the detect he wanted to surprise stab him, but lost the ini. The cultist ordered the rest to grab him and he left the body, returning to his raven.

- At that point it seems my player started to feel unfairly treated, as he wrote later that detect magic cant move with the cultist and why he never gets a surprise round. For a better game experience, yes, I could have just given him a round, where he either stabs the cultists or nukes the troup, then returning to the raven. The detect magic part is correct I think, but wouldnt have changed a lot anyway.

Now I thought: Yes, he left the tower! But I was wrong again, he immediately returns and takes control over a greater whyvern outide of the spires top. Save so far, I describe to him, that the fog is clearing up, rolling a spot check and he can see his own raven in the distance. I hoped this would trigger him to finish whatever he is doing and immediately retreat. But is seems he didnt see this as a possible danger and stayed. I told him that he hears voices from inside the tower (no listen check or he would hear the witch) - the gate is a short distance around the egde of the towers balcony.
He moves around the corner - I ask him if he is sure this is what he wants to do: Yes! - I describe how a cultists scans him with det magic and calls for alert. While everybody is somewhat surprised, except for the cultist and the witch, who he can see now.

Maybe I made a mistake there that he should have been able to cast a spell after we walked in? Actually not sure since surprise round still confuse me.
But technically - of course the witch is aware that there is a giant whyvern outside of her door + the foresight spell.

The PC looses the initiative and she rolls an 18 on the dispel check, plus her CL18.... at that point my player is shocked once I tell him that he is dead. It turns out he either missread the spell or had a wrong source, but he thought that a dispell on the host just juggs him back into the crystal.

He immediately leaves the table and the game. T_T

Later telling me that he felt unfairly treated, his courage and risk wasnt rewared, that I planned to kill him, he never got a surprise attack and det magic doesnt work like that anyway.

It seems while I tried to give him half a dozen of warnings, he didnt register any of them, or ignoring, thinking that the spell works differently, I dont know.
Maybe he was so focussed on what he still wanted to do or him feeling misstreated that he didnt understand it....
Aside from telling him directly that he is likely to die if he does this I did everything I could , at least I think so.
And undoing the entire rest of the spell because he made an error reading it....seems wrong too.
:frown:

[Firest Kathon]

[...] "foresight". The latter lets her know the best step to take for the next moments, so she has some meta knowledge.

My understanding of the spell is that the line "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" is a fluff description and the actual mechanical implication is the bonus to AC and Reflex. On the other hand it's a level 9 spell, so your interpretation is certainly not out of line.


He moved upwards and the guards started talking about bad ghosts, posessing people while the PC added to the fear. We reached the top, where the guards had a short talk about added security. Followed by a cultist who came down and began casting detect magic. He found the strange aura on the PC and after the player recognized the detect he wanted to surprise stab him, but lost the ini. The cultist ordered the rest to grab him and he left the body, returning to his raven.

- At that point it seems my player started to feel unfairly treated, as he wrote later that detect magic cant move with the cultist and why he never gets a surprise round. For a better game experience, yes, I could have just given him a round, where he either stabs the cultists or nukes the troup, then returning to the raven. The detect magic part is correct I think, but wouldnt have changed a lot anyway.

You were correct in not giving him a surprise round. You get a surprise round when at least one of the parties is "not aware" of the other, which means e.g. hidden. Here they were standing right in front of each other, both aware that the other may be hostile - the Initiative check is exactly what determines who reacts first in that situation. Also, a wizard has enough tools to ensure they got first.


He moves around the corner - I ask him if he is sure this is what he wants to do: Yes! - I describe how a cultists scans him with det magic and calls for alert. While everybody is somewhat surprised, except for the cultist and the witch, who he can see now.

Detect magic needs three rounds to pinpoint the source of a magic aura, and two rounds to even count the auras. So the only information the caster could have gotten was that there are magic auras in the area, so he should have had at least one round to react.


Maybe I made a mistake there that he should have been able to cast a spell after we walked in? Actually not sure since surprise round still confuse me.

No surprise round, both parties saw each other at the same time, initiative determines who reacts first.


But technically - of course the witch is aware that there is a giant whyvern outside of her door + the foresight spell.

Foresight is written in a way that is highly open to DM interpretation, so I could not say you are wrong here :smallwink:.


The PC looses the initiative and she rolls an 18 on the dispel check, plus her CL18.... at that point my player is shocked once I tell him that he is dead. It turns out he either missread the spell or had a wrong source, but he thought that a dispell on the host just juggs him back into the crystal.
[...]
Later telling me that he felt unfairly treated, his courage and risk wasnt rewared, that I planned to kill him, he never got a surprise attack and det magic doesnt work like that anyway.

Well, it sure sucks that he did not correctly understand the spell, but this is hardly unfair treatment from your side.


It seems while I tried to give him half a dozen of warnings, he didnt register any of them, or ignoring, thinking that the spell works differently, I dont know.
Maybe he was so focussed on what he still wanted to do or him feeling misstreated that he didnt understand it....

It's hard to give clues to the players, there is always the rist of misundertandings.


Aside from telling him directly that he is likely to die if he does this I did everything I could , at least I think so.
And undoing the entire rest of the spell because he made an error reading it....seems wrong too.
:frown:

My advice: Let him cool down a bit, then have a talk with him. Not in the next gaming round, just a one-on-one when you meet (assuming you meet out of the gaming context, meet up otherwise asap). Explain to him that you understand that he is upset, but also explain to him you decisions (in a way that does not make him look stupid). Also, his risk was rewarded, by gaining valuable insights into the tower defenses and about the spells the witch typically prepares. You should also think of a way for him to continue playing his character. One option may be that you allow his interpretation this time, i.e. allow him to return to the crystal, but in the future the official rules apply. I'm sure he will be more careful :smalltongue. Reincarnation might also be cool with him, wizards have little to lose as only physical ability scores are altered by the spell. Alternatively have maybe a friendly caster in the area, find a treasure, etc. to allow resurrection.

[Bobur]

Thanks,

yea the foresight spell is a bit wonky, you could argue that even without the detect magic spell, her spellcraft check is high enough to recognize the spell - since they are looking for it everywhere and expecting it. Even without the det magic, he would have lost the ini to the witch in any case once he tried to cast something.
- Can you cast as a Whyvern ? You dont have hands or a spell comp pouch or a focus...eh, I just go with it. ^^°
So that wouldnt have changed a thing in the end.

For the future I have some ideas.

1) What you sayd: Rerule it this once and let him return to the stone - I dont like it, but it might be the best solution.
2) Resurrection: He refused it before, loosing a level is a no go for him. - Which resulted in the use of our only true ressurection scroll.
3) There is an NPC spellcaster with us, he could play him - but since he is part of the story not a good idea.
4) We have an item of an evil god of undeath - we could use it to ask for favors - which would likely make the wizard a lich (put your soul into a crystal again!) The other players would love it, but the player isnt the type for this kind of fun. ^^

Sadly I cant meet with the player, but for now (1st day after the session) one of my other players talks to him and I will see what comes out if it and call him tomorrow.

[Dezea]

I honestly feel like you have been as nice as you could be.

For such high level player, death - Even in this case - is definitely not such a big issue, and, even if it did not end well for the player, he used a risky strategy with great benefit for a long time. This is pretty much bound to happen when a player can't foresee that the enemy, too, have magic and are not afraid to use it.

You are not responsible for him not reading his own spells, and I would say that apologies might be in order from him. Leaving the gaming table on a "YOU KILLED MY CHARACTER" tantrum is clearly a big red flag in my book, and, to be honest, I, as a player at your gaming table, would have looked poorly on an attempt from one player to transform a group challenge into a hour-long solo encounter.

Long Story Short : He had it coming, how did this encounter affect the other player ?

[Bobur]

I honestly feel like you have been as nice as you could be.

For such high level player, death - Even in this case - is definitely not such a big issue, and, even if it did not end well for the player, he used a risky strategy with great benefit for a long time. This is pretty much bound to happen when a player can't foresee that the enemy, too, have magic and are not afraid to use it.

You are not responsible for him not reading his own spells, and I would say that apologies might be in order from him. Leaving the gaming table on a "YOU KILLED MY CHARACTER" tantrum is clearly a big red flag in my book, and, to be honest, I, as a player at your gaming table, would have looked poorly on an attempt from one player to transform a group challenge into a hour-long solo encounter.

Long Story Short : He had it coming, how did this encounter affect the other player ?

Your assumption is correct, the other players basically had nothing to do for what was 2 sessions worth of time, ending in this fiasco. They sayd they didnt have much of a problem with it since it was entertaining, but they are split on the end. We played for years now and I will give him a call tomorrow, I hope he has cooled down a bit by then.

On my part, I should have reread the spell once it came up, I would have ended this way earlier when he returned to the camp - the spell ends once you enter your old body.
But I didnt know and told him that it has a longer duration - he didnt correct me either and went back to the tower.
In hindsight I know that I should have stopped it there. -_-°

It seems to boild down to a different idea of what we want from the game. While I just try to be fair and not make mistakes, I dont hold my punches when it comes down to it, while my player only sees this as a nice evening together, where he can do whatever he wants. If that means that death isnt possible has to be discussed.
Right now he seems to have the feeling that I denied him everything and used spells and actions against him - mostly on small stuff like a surprise round or the detect magic. But it also includes stuff that he cant know like the foresight spell. Unless I tell him WHY he cant do it he thinks I am unfair. Maybe I am wrong here butu I dont want to spell everything out for my players, you are not supposed to know or understand everything thats going on.

Well, the goal is to get everyone back to the table, but its going to be a difficult and long call anyway.

[Lapak]

I agree that you need a discussion about what everyone wants out of the game. There’s nothing inherently wrong with playing D&D in ‘god mode,’ where everything will work out in the PC’s favor regardless of what they do, but it’s not an unstated assumption of the rules so if that’s the experience your players want it’s probably worth making sure everyone is on board - including you, who has to run the game. That’s clearly what THIS player is looking for, at least.

[Dezea]

Your assumption is correct, the other players basically had nothing to do for what was 2 sessions worth of time, ending in this fiasco. They sayd they didnt have much of a problem with it since it was entertaining, but they are split on the end. We played for years now and I will give him a call tomorrow, I hope he has cooled down a bit by then.

On my part, I should have reread the spell once it came up, I would have ended this way earlier when he returned to the camp - the spell ends once you enter your old body.
But I didnt know and told him that it has a longer duration - he didnt correct me either and went back to the tower.
In hindsight I know that I should have stopped it there. -_-°

It seems to boild down to a different idea of what we want from the game. While I just try to be fair and not make mistakes, I dont hold my punches when it comes down to it, while my player only sees this as a nice evening together, where he can do whatever he wants. If that means that death isnt possible has to be discussed.
Right now he seems to have the feeling that I denied him everything and used spells and actions against him - mostly on small stuff like a surprise round or the detect magic. But it also includes stuff that he cant know like the foresight spell. Unless I tell him WHY he cant do it he thinks I am unfair. Maybe I am wrong here butu I dont want to spell everything out for my players, you are not supposed to know or understand everything thats going on.

Well, the goal is to get everyone back to the table, but its going to be a difficult and long call anyway.

Being able to tell a player that you know why you are doing something, that you are doing rightly, but that you can't explain until they are done with the scenario is a really important premise in the "Contract of trust" between DM and Player.

Breaking it will probably do more harm than good in the long run, and I can only advise you to speak about what matter here : Trust between 2 people, and clearly not somes D&D rules.

Good luck anyway, those situation are always a pain to deal with : (

[Segev]

The only bit where he has a major case for unfair treatment is that you didn’t make sure he knew his spell would kill him if it were dispelled. His character really would have known that. If you’re dropping hints like this, making sure he knows the stakes is important.

Is resurrection or reincarnation not an option?

[Bobur]

The only bit where he has a major case for unfair treatment is that you didn’t make sure he knew his spell would kill him if it were dispelled. His character really would have known that. If you’re dropping hints like this, making sure he knows the stakes is important.

Is resurrection or reincarnation not an option?

One evening before I was the one who didnt know the spell, so now that I read up on it I just expected him to know his own spell. The thought that he doesnt didnt even cross my mind.

And yes, reincarnation would be an option but he hates loosing a level. I likely undo the death with the limitation of removing the jar spell.

[Segev]

One evening before I was the one who didnt know the spell, so now that I read up on it I just expected him to know his own spell. The thought that he doesnt didnt even cross my mind.

And yes, reincarnation would be an option but he hates loosing a level. I likely undo the death with the limitation of removing the jar spell.

How do you handle XP awards? There's a saying that used to be more common on this forum, "XP is a river." In 3.5, at least, your XP award was higher if you were lower level than the rest of the party, based on a formula that calculated individual XP based on the CR of the encounter. This has a net effect of catching people a level behind back up.

Could also let him take a quest to get his level back or something.

[Lapak]

I seriously think your table needs to have the talk about intended play style and acceptable consequences before you make any calls on how to address this situation; hand waving this one without doing so will only lead to more troubles later on.

[Sinewmire]

I GM a pathfinder group, have been doing for years.

I warned them all, and have repeatedly warned that, in the words of King Bhumi from avatar, "There are no take-backsies in my kingdom."

However, I do waive this if it is a matter of losing a character.

It is 100% the players' responsibility to know how their main abilities work, especially in a situation like this where their plan is based on it, but a little leeway - as you said, shunting him back to his body *this* time - would be acceptable.

However, my players don't tend to use magic like your player is, so yeah.

[Bobur]

hi again,

I had a long talk with my player and we moved a lot of stuff out of the way.

There was a lot of misunderstanding and very different focuses involved. There were mistakes made on my part, like the detect magic spell, that he remembers I have used differently in the past (I forgot) and that, together with the surprise rounds and some bad wording and descriptions just build up a feeling of unfairness, that I would have liked to avoid, but didnt notice at that evening.

The biggest problem was the final part when he entered the tower as a whyvern and got zapped. I now know that a map would have helped in that case (so far it was mind cinema) and just taking it a bit slower and describing it more.
In the end he wanted to just throw a cloud kill somehow into the tower without actually going in or beeing seen, but I didnt get that from his describtion and moved him into the tower, where he met his end.

And so since this was based in mistakes on both sides I will bring him back into his original body, the jewel is shattered and the spell removed from his book, he can pick something else.
If he wants to he can add other changes for roleplaying.

I would have done some things differently in hindsight, but since we can only go forward and without any hard feelings, I think this is the best way to go.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Great support.

[Segev]

Glad you guys came to an amicable conclusion on it.

My biggest advice, based on what you said, would be to ask players, if you think they're doing something lethally foolish (or just plain lethal), what they're trying to accomplish. What is their goal? Hopefully, this would fish out answers like, "I want to cast a cloudkill on the tower," and further questioning (because doing so while inside it makes so little sense) would lead to "no, from outside the tower."

If what he's doing seems not to lead to what he says he wants to do, this suggests the GM and the player have divergent understandings of the situation, and time needs to be taken to get both on the same page.