Help with Magic Items

[WielderofFlame]

Specifically I want to know if there is a way I can make Deathstrike Bracers out of the MIC have unlimited charges and if so how much would they cost to purchase. I have been staring at table 7-33 in the DAMN for an hour and I can't tell if it's even possible let alone how. Assistance would greatly be appreciated.

[JNAProductions]

Charges per day tells you to:


Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

So we'd divide the price by 5/3, or 1.67, to reach the 5,000 GP it normally costs, or a base cost of 8,350. Checking my math... Yup, sounds right.

Which... Yeah, according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) page, and double-checked against Boots of Teleportation, means that 8,350 GP would be its cost.

Balanced! :P

[BowStreetRunner]

Charges per day tells you to:



So we'd divide the price by 5/3, or 1.67, to reach the 5,000 GP it normally costs, or a base cost of 8,350. Checking my math... Yup, sounds right.

Which... Yeah, according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) page, and double-checked against Boots of Teleportation, means that 8,350 GP would be its cost.

Balanced! :P

"6. If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges."

So you are going from [8350 divided by 1.67] to [8350 divide by .05], or 167,000 gp base cost., 83,500 cost to create.

[JNAProductions]

"6. If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges."

So you are going from [8350 divided by 1.67] to [8350 divide by .05], or 167,000 gp base cost., 83,500 cost to create.

Ah. Where is that from?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Charges per day tells you to:



So we'd divide the price by 5/3, or 1.67, to reach the 5,000 GP it normally costs, or a base cost of 8,350. Checking my math... Yup, sounds right.

Which... Yeah, according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) page, and double-checked against Boots of Teleportation, means that 8,350 GP would be its cost.

Balanced! :P

Nope, that's the price of changing it from 3/day to 5/day (divided by 5/5).

There's absolutely no RAW way to convert a charges per day item into an at-will item. The answer in this case is to ask your DM.

The notes at the very bottom of the table say to multiply the price by 100 for unlimited uses, that's regarding costly material components and xp costs, but it's a good number to start with.

[Sejoran]

If you're tying to upgrade it, ask your DM. If you're making the item yourself take the spells that make up the item and act like you are enchanting it yourself for the number of uses/unlimited you need it to be. Though i dont know if your character is making it or if you are proposing this item being in the treasure later on.

Enchanting items is finicky sometimes. Take Secret Chest for example, this spell fuels almost all the extra-dimensional space enchants; portable holes, bags of holding, handy haversacks, the nigh infinite spool of rope. Or another one, Shadow Investiture, this spell gives you a few bonuses to hide and a few others. But make it into a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis and suddenly you have a template applied to you for a number of times per day(if made directly out of the MiC).

[Segev]

Nope, that's the price of changing it from 3/day to 5/day (divided by 5/5).

There's absolutely no RAW way to convert a charges per day item into an at-will item. The answer in this case is to ask your DM.

The notes at the very bottom of the table say to multiply the price by 100 for unlimited uses, that's regarding costly material components and xp costs, but it's a good number to start with.

That's not true. Calculating the price of a charges-per-day item specifically STARTS with the cost of an at-will item, then divides by (5/number of times per day it can be used). So the price of a 5x/day item and an at-will item is the same.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's not true. Calculating the price of a charges-per-day item specifically STARTS with the cost of an at-will item, then divides by (5/number of times per day it can be used). So the price of a 5x/day item and an at-will item is the same.

Correct, but if a published item is already at charges per day, then you have no basis for reversing that to at-will. Instead the charges per day calculation always applies, there's no way to remove it.

[Rebel7284]

Not to be under-stated, there is also the completely RAW method of buying multiple bracers and swapping out.

[Segev]

Correct, but if a published item is already at charges per day, then you have no basis for reversing that to at-will. Instead the charges per day calculation always applies, there's no way to remove it.

Then design a custom item of the listed effect that is at-will. Most of the time, you’ll find the custom item comes out at the same price as a 5/day item.

You’re essentially arguing that items are printed to limit players, rather than to inspire DMs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Then design a custom item of the listed effect that is at-will. Most of the time, you’ll find the custom item comes out at the same price as a 5/day item.

You’re essentially arguing that items are printed to limit players, rather than to inspire DMs.

That works, but a very common misconception is that players are able to design custom items and determine the price of those items themselves. This is entirely incorrect, a player proposes a custom item to their DM, and the DM then determines the base price and prerequisites for creating it.

If an item already exists with charges/day, and the player wants one that's usable at will, the charges/day version is not a basis for comparison because it's significantly more limited. There are 14,400 combat rounds in a given day, so when converting a charges/day item to one that's usable potentially every round per day, it would be just as fair to switch it from being divided by 5/[current daily charges] to being divided by 5/14,400.

[JNAProductions]

Eh... Let's be honest here. Boots Of Teleportation, at-will, are only marginally better than Boots Of Teleportation, 3/day. How often do you REALLY Teleport? In addition, it's basic Teleport. There's that margin of error.

Whereas I definitely agree, 5/day Gloves Of Bull's Strength are not nearly as good as at-will Gloves Of Bull's Strength. (I'd probably price it at about 80% of a +4 item of Strength, since it cuts into your action economy and is dispellable, whereas a full-fledged Item of Strength is much harder to surpress.. So 16,000*.8=12,800 GP. As compared to the ACTUAL PRICE, which would be... 2*3*1800, or 10,800.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eh... Let's be honest here. Boots Of Teleportation, at-will, are only marginally better than Boots Of Teleportation, 3/day. How often do you REALLY Teleport? In addition, it's basic Teleport. There's that margin of error.

Whereas I definitely agree, 5/day Gloves Of Bull's Strength are not nearly as good as at-will Gloves Of Bull's Strength. (I'd probably price it at about 80% of a +4 item of Strength, since it cuts into your action economy and is dispellable, whereas a full-fledged Item of Strength is much harder to surpress.. So 16,000*.8=12,800 GP. As compared to the ACTUAL PRICE, which would be... 2*3*1800, or 10,800.)

At-will Gloves of Bull's Strength would fall under the enhancement bonus to a stat calculation, not the spell effect calculation. Otherwise a constant effect item of Mage Armor is only 2,000 gp, whereas Bracers of Armor +4 is 16,000 gp. This is exactly why it's up to a DM to determine how custom items are priced, not a player.

[JNAProductions]

At-will Gloves of Bull's Strength would fall under the enhancement bonus to a stat calculation, not the spell effect calculation. Otherwise a constant effect item of Mage Armor is only 2,000 gp, whereas Bracers of Armor +4 is 16,000 gp. This is exactly why it's up to a DM to determine how custom items are priced, not a player.

Except it's not as good as an item of +X to Strength. You have to activate it, it lasts only 3 minutes by default, and is far more easily dispelled than the full item. It's ALMOST as good, which is why I only would give a small discount, but it's not AS good.

Edit: Wait, was just pointed out to me, an item of At-Will Bull's Strength can be spread out amongst multiple people. So I'd actually cost it MORE than the generic +4 Strength item.

If it only worked WHILE WORN, though, so it's limited to one person, I'd still give you a discount.

[Crake]

"6. If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges."

So you are going from [8350 divided by 1.67] to [8350 divide by .05], or 167,000 gp base cost., 83,500 cost to create.

That's referring to the cost of expensive material components and/or xp components. If the item in question has no expensive material components or xp components associated with it, then that line has no bearing on the cost at all, and even if it did, then the designers would have already factored it in as if it had 50 charges, since the item is unlimited used, but has a daily limit, so at most, you'd double the material/xp costs to 100 charges.

[Segev]

That works, but a very common misconception is that players are able to design custom items and determine the price of those items themselves. This is entirely incorrect, a player proposes a custom item to their DM, and the DM then determines the base price and prerequisites for creating it.Oh, sure. But DM or player, the rules for calculating costs are the same. Whether the DM approves the item at all is another matter entirely.


If an item already exists with charges/day, and the player wants one that's usable at will, the charges/day version is not a basis for comparison because it's significantly more limited. There are 14,400 combat rounds in a given day, so when converting a charges/day item to one that's usable potentially every round per day, it would be just as fair to switch it from being divided by 5/[current daily charges] to being divided by 5/14,400.Eh. The notion that the fact that a 5 charges/day item and an infinite charges/day item are the same price is "meaningless" and that, thus, an already-extant <5 charges/day item should lead to a version with >5 charges/day costing more than it would have had it just been originally designed "at will" seems rooted in the same kind of logic that says that a Gargoyle PC is equivalent to an 8th level druid at the first level it is playable by the rules.

You don't need extra "no, you can't use the guidelines the way they're laid out" costs on something the DM can just say "no" to, anyway, if it's broken.


Eh... Let's be honest here. Boots Of Teleportation, at-will, are only marginally better than Boots Of Teleportation, 3/day. How often do you REALLY Teleport? In addition, it's basic Teleport. There's that margin of error.

Whereas I definitely agree, 5/day Gloves Of Bull's Strength are not nearly as good as at-will Gloves Of Bull's Strength. (I'd probably price it at about 80% of a +4 item of Strength, since it cuts into your action economy and is dispellable, whereas a full-fledged Item of Strength is much harder to surpress.. So 16,000*.8=12,800 GP. As compared to the ACTUAL PRICE, which would be... 2*3*1800, or 10,800.)Teleportation at will would get used an awful lot, I bet.

As for items that cast bull's strength by command word...


At-will Gloves of Bull's Strength would fall under the enhancement bonus to a stat calculation, not the spell effect calculation. Otherwise a constant effect item of Mage Armor is only 2,000 gp, whereas Bracers of Armor +4 is 16,000 gp. This is exactly why it's up to a DM to determine how custom items are priced, not a player.

...Biffoniacus has the right of it, here. Charged items of it may work, because of the limitations of having to put it up, but only if they don't allow you to keep it up constantly. Anything approaching constant availability falls under the bonus calculation rules.

And yes, THIS is the kind of thing that the DM is supposed to be watching out for. (Well, and generically anything that would wreck his game if it existed.)

[JNAProductions]

...Biffoniacus has the right of it, here. Charged items of it may work, because of the limitations of having to put it up, but only if they don't allow you to keep it up constantly. Anything approaching constant availability falls under the bonus calculation rules.

And yes, THIS is the kind of thing that the DM is supposed to be watching out for. (Well, and generically anything that would wreck his game if it existed.)

I'd argue that a CL3, 3 minute duration +4 Strength buff (even usable at-will) for whoever wears it is not QUITE as good as a permanent +4 bonus attached to a magic item.

I DO, however, agree that the pricing should be based on the (Ability Bonus)2X1,000 GP, and NOT based on the formula for an at-will item of Bull's Strength. I just think there should be a small discount, since it's not quite as good.

[Segev]

I'd argue that a CL3, 3 minute duration +4 Strength buff (even usable at-will) for whoever wears it is not QUITE as good as a permanent +4 bonus attached to a magic item.

I DO, however, agree that the pricing should be based on the (Ability Bonus)2X1,000 GP, and NOT based on the formula for an at-will item of Bull's Strength. I just think there should be a small discount, since it's not quite as good.

While you may be right in that it "should," I'd argue against it because, if we're honest, the wearer is just going to take six seconds every three minutes to restart it. To the point that it might just become a nervous tick.

Besides, if you want your Bull's Hide Gloves to be cheaper strength-boosters than normal for +4 enhancement, just make them usable by [class] only. That's a 30% price reduction. If that's too restrictive, there's also [alignment] only, for a 10% reduction.