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View Full Version : Brainstorming an alternate skill system.



Nightblade
2007-08-28, 03:45 AM
One of the things I hear a lot is how if you play a [melee class] or [non-spellcaster] you get left behind because eventually somebody else can do your job better than you, while doing their own to begin with. You play a Wizard who will control everything on the field, use utility spells to get past traps and puzzles, and then toss in Tenser's Transformation at the end of the day just for kicks. The Fighter will take a back seat to everything. That includes what he is built for, combat. How do we change this to let other classes have "their fun". I thought why not start from skills?

For the non-spellcaster classes, what you need are "combat" and "non-combat" skills. So for example you have Intimidate, Jump, Bluff, and Tumble for combat skills. Then for non-combat, you have Knowledge (Geography), Perform (drinking song), Survival, Craft (weaponsmith) to give them stuff to do outside of combat. Now that type of system is going to help non-magic types the most as far as I see it. Rogues will also benefit as they can have things like a Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble all bred for combat and then Open Lock, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device for non-combat. The trouble is where do you draw the line and how to judge how it'll work. Give the Fighter (2+Int) skills for non-combat and then (2+Int) skills for combat? Give the rogue (6+Int) skills for non-combat and (4+Int) skills for combat?

What do you guys think? This is a brainstorm, and I realize is shaky at best. However, I thought about proposing to my DM to run using something like it if I can find a proper balance.

Zincorium
2007-08-28, 04:07 AM
One problem: This doesn't actually solve the conundrum you start with. Really, it's tantamount to giving everyone more skill points, but then adds in a reasonable if hard to adjudicate restriction.

Really, game balance is only going to be preserved if magic cannot duplicate skill uses or can only do them when the skillmonkey's role is not in danger of being usurped. Since D&D falls into the school of 'magic can do anything whatsoever' the first is out, and the second is bound to grate on the casters even if it is effective.

That said, I'd have no problem playing under it or DMing with it if someone else had gone through and classified all the skills already.

nagora
2007-08-28, 04:20 AM
How do we change this to let other classes have "their fun".

Go back to 1e rules on casting in combat. No running while casting. Any damage sufferent prevents casting any spell for the remainder of the round and spoils any spell already underway.

The result is a massive limitation in combat situations (especially since all creatures with Int above about 8 will attack casters first if possible), makes a certain amount of sense, makes fighter types much more important, is simple to DM and play, but allows casters to still shine outside of combat - which is where they belong.

Rex Blunder
2007-08-28, 10:46 AM
Nagora, can you give me a brief explanation of how casting worked in 1ed? I don't know if I ever played it as written when I was a kid. Let's say you and I are standing next to each other, and you win initiative. You start casting a spell. Do you get it finished before I get to attack you, or do we count up the segments each of our actions take or something?

Journey
2007-08-28, 10:59 AM
Nagora, can you give me a brief explanation of how casting worked in 1ed? I don't know if I ever played it as written when I was a kid. Let's say you and I are standing next to each other, and you win initiative. You start casting a spell. Do you get it finished before I get to attack you, or do we count up the segments each of our actions take or something?
All spells had a casting time associated with them (some even required more than one round to cast). If the caster were interrupted at any time during a round, the spell he was trying to cast would be interrupted, period, regardless of the initiative or other factors.

The way DMs and I used to adjudicate this was that the caster was preparing to cast prior to his turn in the round, based on the initiative roll and then took the rest of the time spent casting, er, to cast the spell. Any interruption in the whole process equated to failure. You might think of the casting time as an initiative modifier, where "final, action takes place initiative" equals "rolled initiative plus casting time."

Oeryn
2007-08-28, 11:24 AM
If I recall it correctly (and this may have been a house rule), casting time wasn't the only modifier. Every weapon had a "Speed" in 1E, so you added that to your initiative, and subtracted your Dex modifier (Lower was better, back then).

So assume I'm a fighter and you're a wizard. We both roll a 5 for initiative.

You see me comin' at you, so you decide to cast a Lightning Bolt at me, with a casting time of 4. You start casting on segment 5, and your spell "goes off" on segment 9.

I'm using a longsword, so my speed is 4. My Dex bonus is 2, so I subtract that, and I get to go on segment 7, meaning that I hit you before your spell goes off, and I disrupt it, avoiding the Lightning Bolt and wasting your spell.

Toliudar
2007-08-28, 12:11 PM
1E mechanics aside, I'd have no problem bumping skill points for non-casters by, say, 2 points for Rogues, Rangers, Monks and Barbarians, and 4 points for fighters. It's a simple adjustment, not a lot of adjudication, and helps diversify the non-casters.

nagora
2007-08-28, 12:46 PM
Nagora, can you give me a brief explanation of how casting worked in 1ed? I don't know if I ever played it as written when I was a kid. Let's say you and I are standing next to each other, and you win initiative. You start casting a spell. Do you get it finished before I get to attack you, or do we count up the segments each of our actions take or something?

Basically, your initiative roll indicates when I will start my actions, and my roll is when you start yours. Thus, we both want to roll high.

So: if I declare Fireball (speed 3) and you roll a 3, my Fireball will strike on segment 6. If you are using a longsword (speed 5) then you can only equal that if I roll a 1 for initiative. If you roll a 6 then you have 9 segments before my Fireball goes off, so if you have a dagger (speed 2) you will automatically strike first.

Beating this interpretation out of the 1ed DMG was an intellectual challenge and I think in the end it derives from an errata in The Dragon.

This was only used when spell casters were involved; normally speed factors only came into play on equal initiative rolls. Dexterity was not a factor.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-29, 07:06 AM
1E mechanics aside, I'd have no problem bumping skill points for non-casters by, say, 2 points for Rogues, Rangers, Monks and Barbarians, and 4 points for fighters. It's a simple adjustment, not a lot of adjudication, and helps diversify the non-casters.

Yes, but several of them need a few more class skills to actually use these extra points.

Alternatively, for customization, you could have each character pick three skills at first level, based upon his backstory. These skills are always considered class skills for that character, regardless of which classes he takes.

Lord Tataraus
2007-08-29, 07:26 AM
Yes, but several of them need a few more class skills to actually use these extra points.

Alternatively, for customization, you could have each character pick three skills at first level, based upon his backstory. These skills are always considered class skills for that character, regardless of which classes he takes.

Actually in Unearthed Arcana, there is a variant where you pick your own class skills at first level, one for every skill point you would get each level. You never gain any other skills as class skills, but your list is completely customizable. That's what my group uses normally, and then we can just say "these are my class skills and every level I increase only these" so you don't really need to keep track of skills much since its just your level+3+ability mod+misc.

nagora
2007-08-29, 07:46 AM
Yes, but several of them need a few more class skills to actually use these extra points.

Alternatively, for customization, you could have each character pick three skills at first level, based upon his backstory. These skills are always considered class skills for that character, regardless of which classes he takes.

If the idea is to balance fighters with casters (which is what the OP said), I really can't see this making any odds. The reason I mentioned the 1ed rules was because the problem with Fighter Vs Caster balance is that all the disadvantages of spell casting were removed; the result is so powerful that it's futile to try bringing everything else up to their level - otherwise you have frcwodZilla and the wole thing will just fly apart.