Dual-Wielding Barbarian

[PunkManiak]

I’m working on an idea for a Barbarian character. A human clothed in fur armor, who would wield two-different types of weapons simultaneously, a claymore in his right hand, and a spiked caestus on his left. I figure for combat, he might alternate between great slashes and sweeping attacks with his claymore and brawling or grappling utilizing his left hand.

For his stats, I’m thinking his core three like most Barbarians would be Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity. His Dexterity would only be increased up enough to ensure he would be able to dual-wield with maximum efficiency. Aside from that his core stat would be strength.

Lastly I would probably want to go with Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage.

I’m wondering what would be the best feats and optimization for such a character, any suggestions?

Lastly, I’m working on ideas for the character’s background and history. The idea I had was for him to be from a clan of Savage Humans, but ended up being raised and trained alongside orcs. Would that be at all possible in the world of D&D 3.5?

[Zaq]

Darn near any background is possible in D&D, depending on the flavor of the world your GM/group runs. (Semi-related: I once played a "half-orc" who was mechanically a human born to two half-orc parents, because genetics. Not necessarily what you're doing, but hey, perhaps worth mentioning.)

As far as the build itself goes, dual-wielding without a source of bonus damage (which usually means Sneak Attack or some equivalent) is usually an exercise in frustration, because the results you get out of it are not commensurate with the effort you put into it. The main source of bonus damage for a Barbarian is Power Attack, which is incompatible with a light weapon out of the box. You either need a way to have your off-hand weapon count as simultaneously light (for TWF) and non-light (for PA), another source of bonus damage, or another plan.

You did specify a spiked caestus, though? I forget which book that's in (or which book the closest equivalent is in), but if it explicitly counts as an unarmed strike (a gauntlet counts as unarmed, but a spiked gauntlet counts as armed; I don't have the rules text for the weapon you're describing in front of me), there is a specific exception in Power Attack for unarmed strikes, despite them being light weapons. So that might work. (If your concept would be intact with an actual unarmed strike on your off-hand, Barbs make pretty good unarmed brawlers with a bit of work—the typical path is to go into Fist of the Forest [Complete Champion] ASAP and then segue into Frostrager [Frostburn].)

How do you define a "claymore," mechanically? I forget if there's a printed weapon with that exact name. The low-fuss method is just to use a longsword and describe it in fancy terms. A bastard sword is bigger, but it's mechanically suboptimal if you have to spend a feat on the privilege of using it one-handed (going from d8 to d10 for damage is about a +1 on average, and you should be getting way more than that out of a feat).

Alternatively for your class structure, you could look at a Warblade or a Swordsage [Tome of Battle], perhaps with a bit of Barbarian thrown in there for Rage. (The feat Extra Rage [Complete Warrior] is a must, since it gives a character with one level in Barb as many Rages/day as a character with 8 levels in Barb for way less investment, and honestly, almost all of the good stuff from Barb comes at level 1 or level 2.) Tiger Claw maneuvers often reward fighting with two weapons, and strikes often have baked-in bonus damage. You can go a long way with straight-class or nearly straight-class Warblade and/or Swordsage.

[PunkManiak]

Eh, I mean claymore as I’ve seen it defined in D&D it’s basically a Greatsword, but can be one-handed just fine if you have a specific feat for it.

Basically the idea I’d had is that his primary method of attack would be his claymore, which he could switch to two-handing or one-handing on the fly.

The caestus would be there for mix-ups, trips, or grappling, mid-fight. Unless it would be beneficial at that particular moment, he’d likely focus on using his claymore instead of his caestus.

Correction: The Claymore is actually a Bastard Sword.

[Zaq]

What I'm hearing is that you want someone with a moderately big sword who's capable of using an unarmed strike with their off-hand, mostly to use combat maneuvers.

This pretty much screams Swordsage to me. Focus on Tiger Claw (for strikes that reward attacking with both hands) and Setting Sun (for strikes that involve tripping and throwing with your off-hand). Dipping a level of Barb for Rage is totally acceptable here. Using a longsword that you describe as being a big gnarly claymore is the most mechanically optimal way of handling your sword; if you insist on your sword using a larger damage die than that of the longsword-wielding guy next to you, you CAN spend a feat on EWP: Bastard Sword, but I honestly think that's a bad idea. Get Improved Unarmed Strike to be armed with your off-hand, or just take the Unarmed Swordsage variant if your GM allows it. You can mix Warblade in with Swordsage if you want a few more levels with full BAB; Warblades also get Tiger Claw maneuvers, and Iron Heart maneuvers are often simply solid big damage swings for the turns when you feel like two-handing your "claymore" instead of using your off-hand.

If you don't go Swordsage and don't get Setting Sun maneuvers, you're going to be at a pretty big disadvantage using combat maneuvers unarmed, since most of the combat maneuvers that matter get a pretty big bonus from using the right weapon (ideally a two-handed weapon for a +4, but if nothing else, at least a specialized weapon that grants a +2 (like how a flail gives a +2 on disarm rolls). Setting Sun maneuvers do a lot to alleviate that.

[BowStreetRunner]

With the limited number of feats available, it's generally not feasible to do both Two-Handed fighting and Two-Weapon fighting very effectively. Every feat you pour into one line of combat is something that you don't have for the other.

That being said, 3.5 rules don't actually have a 'handedness' in combat. What I mean by that, is your primary hand is whichever hand is holding the weapon you are fighting with on this turn. If you have a weapon in each hand you can fight with one this turn and the other next turn without penalty. So many players using reach weapons (which generally cannot be used against adjacent opponents) use something like a cestus for close-in combat. Players who are worried about getting stuck in a grapple with a too-large weapon are also likely to keep something like the cestus on-hand. (Pun intended! :smallwink:). So there is nothing wrong with keeping the cestus even if you go for Two-Handed fighting.


As far as the build itself goes, dual-wielding without a source of bonus damage (which usually means Sneak Attack or some equivalent) is usually an exercise in frustration, because the results you get out of it are not commensurate with the effort you put into it.Zaq hits the nail on the head here - Two-Weapon combat usually relies on multiple, but smaller packets of damage while Two-Handed combat is centered around one big packet. When things like Damage Reduction get factored in, Two-Weapon combat can be neutralized almost completely. A Two-Weapon fighter will generally need feats to increase his number of attacks, feats to increase the damage of each attack, and feats to increase the attack bonus (especially to overcome TWF penalties), which leaves little wiggle room for also doing Two-Handed fighting or anything else.

A Two-Handed fighter has some of the same issues, but is generally starting with a weapon that does more base damage and without the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties. As much as I prefer to use TWF myself, that's just because I find it more challenging. I'd actually recommend THF unless you are really committed to going the other way.

Zaq also mentioned Tome of Battle. Regardless of which path you take, this is the one book you really want to use if your DM isn't one of those who is afraid of it. While it still won't allow a melee fighter to outmatch a druid or wizard, it helps them stay relevant into much higher levels. The Warblade is basically another way to portray a Barbarian character, so I would look closely at that. Plus, it is very splash-able. Just a single level would be worthwhile, and more are just that much better.

Edit: it didn't take a lot in the way of Google-Fu in order to come up with some other conversations about Barbarian/Warblade builds. Here is a link to one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14234951&postcount=30) that seemed off to a good start.

[Khedrac]

Obligatory link: the Two Weapon Fighting Off-handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). Don't be put off by the first few posts going through the probelms - that is mainly so that you are aware of them and can work to avoid/mitigate them for your character.

[Calthropstu]

Don't you need two hands to wield a barbarian?

[Zaq]

Don't you need two hands to wield a barbarian?

In 4e, the joke goes that a Barbarian hits things with an axe, but a Warlord hits things with a Barbarian. Can use two, one, or zero hands.

Pity that “you there, smack him for me!” tactics (i.e., straight up granting attacks to allies) aren’t well supported in 3.5. I guess there’s Temporal Twist and (Mass) Snake’s Swiftness? Neither takes two hands, though. I forget, are there any White Raven maneuvers that directly grant swings to allies?

What do you mean, “missing the joke”?

[Zombimode]

The (in)famous White Raven Tactics, of course.

But since in 3.5 you are allied with yourself you can use WRT to give yourself another round worth of actions.

[Darrin]

Correction: The Claymore is actually a Bastard Sword.

According to the Arms & Equipment Guide, it's an alternate name for a greatsword. However, since a bastard sword can be used two-handed as a martial weapon, I wouldn't bother arguing over the nomenclature.

From a historical perspective, claymore can refer either to the zweihander-style two-handed sword or a basket-hilted cavalry broadsword. (Basically, it depends on if your highlander is on a horse or not.)



I’m wondering what would be the best feats and optimization for such a character, any suggestions?


Ok, so... it is possible to combine TWF with Power Attack. In fact, wielding a greatsword as your primary weapon and offhanding with an unarmed strike or gauntlet is one of the more effective ways to dish out DPS by combining THF with TWF. However, that's going to require a lot of feats, so you may not have enough feat slots to devote to Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. (If Dragon Magazine is allowed, Exoticist Fighter from Dragon #310 could help here.)

EWP: bastard sword gets you a claymore in one hand, but the spiked cestus may need some finagling. A "spiked gauntlet" is not an exotic weapon, but unlike the plain ol' vanilla gauntlet, it no longer counts as an unarmed strike. It's considered a light weapon, so you can't Power Attack with it (unless you're an Osteomancer). If you go with just the plain gauntlet, then you get x1.0 Power Attack damage (it counts as an unarmed strike) and x0.5 Str damage as an offhand attack.

There's also the ward cestus in the Arms & Equipment Guide. This isn't spiked, but it does have a metal bar over the knuckles, which is sorta like a spike? However, mechanically it's nearly identical to using an ordinary gauntlet. The only advantage would be it's an exotic weapon, and you might be able to use it with Exotic Weapon Master's "Uncanny Blow" stunt to get two-handed damage modifiers on your one-handed exotic weapons. However, the wording is a bit murky and not all DMs are going to interpret "Uncanny Blow" that way.

With either a gauntlet or ward cestus, it may also be possible wield a two-handed weapon and still attack with your gauntlet or ward cestus, as it's possible to take a hand off your weapon and re-grip it as a free action. Taking Improved Unarmed Strike (IUS) would also work with a greatsword, as you can fluff an unarmed strike as a kick, elbow, or shoulder-check. If you take IUS as a feat or as a dip into Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium), you can then pick up Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) so your unarmed strike damage scales up with character level. Snap Kick (same book) is also fun, although the -2 penalty on top of the -2 TWF penalty really eats into your attack bonus.

There's also a "City Brawler" variant Barbarian in Dragon #349 that trades medium armor/shields/martial weapon proficiencies for IUS, TWF (unarmed only), and a reduced penalty for improvised weapons.

If you're going with the Bastard Sword/Gauntlet combo, then I'd suggest something like:

1) Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Attack. Human: EWP Bastard Sword. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
2) Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
3) Fighter 1. Feat: Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) or Power Lunge (Ghostwalk). Bonus: TWF.
4) Fighter 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
5) Fighter 3.
6) Fighter 4. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) Fighter 5.
8) Fighter 6. Bonus: Improved TWF.
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Extra Rage.
etc.

[PunkManiak]

@Darrin I might just try it out. I’m thinking, since we’ll be using the point but system, I’ll aim for starting the game with 16s in Str, Dex, and Con. 8 in Intelligence, he’s a barbarian who was raised among Orcs, he wouldn’t be that smart. 10 in Wisdom, which oddly enough he’s okay in, and 12 in Charisma, he isn’t creepy or weird, just somewhat dumb but he makes up for it by being an exotic and savage looking human, with many stories to tell.

The goal by level 20 would be to get his Strength to 20 and his Charisma to 13 if possible. He’ll be more or less Herculean in Strength.

Unfortunately I suspect that his poor Intelligence score will eat up one of his save stats, so I’ll probably want to look at something like Combat Training or a Feat to help augment that.

Correction:
It looks like leaving his Charisma at 12 and dumping the other point into Dexterity for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting makes more sense.

[ComaVision]

It may be worth noting that two levels of Ranger and Gloves of the Balanced Hand can get you Improved TWF without the dex prerequisite. You could boost your other stats more instead.